The Punisher vs Gotham City

[khadgar567]

Bats would do better in Marvel than Punisher in. Gotham. Not only would Frank be viewed as a villain by most heroes, but his modus operandi would prevent him from a major impact as discussed above.
In fact I bet his storyline would put him as the villain and have Batgirl or similar person as the hero, hunting him down.

Bats on the other hand would handle things better and quite easily cooperate with the heroes on his level (Daredevil, etc).
He would also feel rather at home against enemies like Typhoid Mary, Kraven, Bullseye, Electra, Etc etc.

lack of luthor and maxvel lord makes bruce flex his competitive muscles more easily and closest bastard to his style is nearly 24/7 drunk and needs cutting edge armor and ai to save his ass every time bats in marvel probably become major super power and thanks to abundance of telepaths in marvel and his own charisma Bruce'y probably hook him self with emma frost erasing his trauma and basicly living his life like a G without problem.

[Keltest]

lack of luthor and maxvel lord makes bruce flex his competitive muscles more easily and closest bastard to his style is nearly 24/7 drunk and needs cutting edge armor and ai to save his ass every time bats in marvel probably become major super power and thanks to abundance of telepaths in marvel and his own charisma Bruce'y probably hook him self with emma frost erasing his trauma and basicly living his life like a G without problem.

Bruce would never want to erase his trauma. Its part of his identity. How could he brood without his trauma?

[khadgar567]

Bruce would never want to erase his trauma. Its part of his identity. How could he brood without his trauma?

he wont do in dc universe if no way to get back to Gotham he eventually find his way to major league and thanks to his bat charisma he gonna hook up with some sort of ice queen so i choose hardest one to conquer emma frost and we know emma loves using emotional wrecks as toys so brucie gonna be her toughest nut to crack( see the similarities of talya end serena). thus either he does where the no one does and defrosts ms frost or emma gonna fix him up to lost cause for dc universe .

[Kyberwulf]

I assume you mean Iron Man, when you say someone closest to his style. I don't see that at all. I never get the comparison. Other then he is rich, and build stuff. Their personalities are totally different. What drives them is so far apart. I don't think there is anyone in the Marvel Universe that really is a good analog for Batman/Bruce Wayne. That's fine, I don't get this need people have that is like, There is one in one universe so there has to be one in the other Universe.

Of course Batman would do better in Marvel. He is a pretty standard superhero. What makes Punisher different. Is the fact they wanted to do something different with a comic book hero. If you look back at the history of Batman, you will find that Punisher actually saved that brand. Before Punisher came out. Batman was pretty much Superman. The same personalities albeit a little darker. It wasn't until Punisher came out that Batman really changed. What with the Frank Miller run. They wanted him to be more like the punisher, but without the killing.

[Kitten Champion]

lack of luthor and maxvel lord makes bruce flex his competitive muscles more easily and closest bastard to his style is nearly 24/7 drunk and needs cutting edge armor and ai to save his ass every time bats in marvel probably become major super power and thanks to abundance of telepaths in marvel and his own charisma Bruce'y probably hook him self with emma frost erasing his trauma and basicly living his life like a G without problem.

Stark dealt with his alcoholism a long, long, long while ago. Plus he makes and actively improves the tech he uses, and of course he relies on it because he fights almost exclusively against the upper-tier threats in the MU and would be easily annihilated otherwise.

Also the Batman-equivalent in the Marvel Universe - excluding Nighthawk because that's cheap mimicry - is Moon Knight. The only cross comparisons between Stark and Wayne are their money and being fundamentally mundane superheroes with super-gadgetry, which isn't too exclusive as far as superheroes go. Black Panther has adopted a similar role to Batman in terms of being the paranoid polymath mundane with huge resources in the MU, but that's relatively recent and there are more contrasts between them when you get into the details.

Moon Knight has a similar motif, similar technology at his disposal, and also has notable skills as a detective -- he's somewhat toned-down power/money/competency-wise to fit the Marvel style and obviously has the twist of being varying levels of psychotic, but the intent is pretty clear in his inception and art.

[Kyberwulf]

I don't like Moon Knight, just because he has magical abilities doesn't he? Something to do with the moon? Not only that, he isn't nearly as skilled. I mean, if you don't want to use Punisher because he lacks the skill, then almost everyone in marvel lacks the skill. Batman IS Superman, not some alien posing as a man. His abilities are the best in all aspects. No one in Marvel is that way, outside of magical or comic book level of science. I mean even Black Panther is blessed by gods to, isn't he?

I am pretty sure Batman has no real counterpart in Marvel.

[Starbuck_II]

Stark dealt with his alcoholism a long, long, long while ago. Plus he makes and actively improves the tech he uses, and of course he relies on it because he fights almost exclusively against the upper-tier threats in the MU and would be easily annihilated otherwise.

Also the Batman-equivalent in the Marvel Universe - excluding Nighthawk because that's cheap mimicry - is Moon Knight. The only cross comparisons between Stark and Wayne are their money and being fundamentally mundane superheroes with super-gadgetry, which isn't too exclusive as far as superheroes go. Black Panther has adopted a similar role to Batman in terms of being the paranoid polymath mundane with huge resources in the MU, but that's relatively recent and there are more contrasts between them when you get into the details.

Moon Knight has a similar motif, similar technology at his disposal, and also has notable skills as a detective -- he's somewhat toned-down power/money/competency-wise to fit the Marvel style and obviously has the twist of being varying levels of psychotic, but the intent is pretty clear in his inception and art.

Wait, shouldn't Iron Fist be the Batman analog?
Both are rich, gave own company, usually fight unarmed, stop crime, both know martial arts, etc.
Only Iron Fist doesn't use technology like Batman (I've never figured out why)

[khadgar567]

You know maybe we need to look villan side to find good match to bruce since hyperion is marvels superman clone batss will probably have a obscure villian counter part.
and for stark, bruce similarities they both build stuff( stark builds armor, bruce builds smaller toys), they both are womanizers, they both lost their parents in some event.
any more info need

[Kitten Champion]

I don't like Moon Knight, just because he has magical abilities doesn't he? Something to do with the moon? Not only that, he isn't nearly as skilled. I mean, if you don't want to use Punisher because he lacks the skill, then almost everyone in marvel lacks the skill. Batman IS Superman, not some alien posing as a man. His abilities are the best in all aspects. No one in Marvel is that way, outside of magical or comic book level of science. I mean even Black Panther is blessed by gods to, isn't he?

I am pretty sure Batman has no real counterpart in Marvel.

Black Panther had and lost superpowers. Even without it he's a polymath super-genius ubermench who's a master martial artist, tactician, inventor, and skilled detective. A venn diagram between the him and Batman's capability would be incredibly close only one kind of runs a ginormous business while the other a ludicrously economically and technologically advanced kingdom, the characterizations are quite distant though.

Moon Knight has slight superhuman physical enhancements at night, depends a bit on the writer. Though, as I said, it's less that he's one-for-one a Batman copy and more theme/art/concept, He is - again - a toned-down Batman with a multiple personality shtick and more mysticism attached to him, it's pretty evident. The billionaire going on a secret crusade against criminals at night, dressed in full cape in cowl, carrying all sorts of character-themed gadgets and weapons,

He's got a goddamned Mooncopter.

Wait, shouldn't Iron Fist be the Batman analog?
Both are rich, gave own company, usually fight unarmed, stop crime, both know martial arts, etc.
Only Iron Fist doesn't use technology like Batman (I've never figured out why)

It's a glamorous and useful trope to build a hero on, there are several more in DC and Marvel alone, plus older examples like Green Hornet. Though, Iron Fist's backstory is more similar to Green Arrow but with 70's Martial Arts exploitation movie motif as the base rather than Robin Hood.

You know maybe we need to look villan side to find good match to bruce since hyperion is marvels superman clone batss will probably have a obscure villian counter part.

Nighthawk is explicitly Batman's counterpart as Hyperion is to Superman, in the sense that he was created as a Batman expy so Marvel could have crossover fights with DC characters without DC's actual involvement using villainous forms of the Justice League.

and for stark, bruce similarities they both build stuff( stark builds armor, bruce builds smaller toys), they both are womanizers, they both lost their parents in some event.
any more info need

They've got some overlapping superhero tropes sure, but their overarching characterization, motivations, and sub-genre are too different.

[Kyberwulf]

Yeah. Bruce Wayne isn't really a part of Batman's persona. It his disguise. It's who he pretends to be.

[Lacuna Caster]

All I know about Moon Knight is what Mr. Edwards tells me, but he definitely seems to have his own unique flavour, and Panther has his own distinct cultural attachments.

I personally think that Bruce needs to be more than just a disguise, since the social philanthropy wing of Wayne Enterprises is one of the main counterpoints to the usual 'angry white guy venting at impoverished minorities' accusations.

[TeChameleon]

I personally think that Bruce needs to be more than just a disguise, since the social philanthropy wing of Wayne Enterprises is one of the main counterpoints to the usual 'angry white guy venting at impoverished minorities' accusations.

... 'impoverished minorities'? Sure, maybe some of the generic thugs that turn up in the Batman Cold Open of some of the stories, but about the only Bat-Rogue you can level that accusation against is Bane, and he sought Batman out. Joker, Two-Face, the Penguin, Scarecrow, the Riddler, the Ventriloquist, Humpty Dumpty, Killer Croc, Mad Hatter, Man-Bat, Zsasz, Firefly, I think all four versions of Clayface, Black Mask, Professor Pyg, Solomon Grundy, Maxie Zeus, Deathstroke, the Clock King, Deadshot, Killer Moth, Catman, Mr. Freeze, Poison Ivy, Catwoman, Harley Quinn... if Batman's Villain Gallery got any whiter, it'd be a bleach commercial. The only exceptions I can think of offhand are Bane (fictional Latino), Lady Shiva (Vietnamese, I think?) and Ra's al Ghul and some of his asssassins (ambiguously Middle Eastasian).

And the whole 'Bruce is the mask' thing varies heavily from writer to writer anyhow.

[Anteros]

... 'impoverished minorities'? Sure, maybe some of the generic thugs that turn up in the Batman Cold Open of some of the stories, but about the only Bat-Rogue you can level that accusation against is Bane, and he sought Batman out. Joker, Two-Face, the Penguin, Scarecrow, the Riddler, the Ventriloquist, Humpty Dumpty, Killer Croc, Mad Hatter, Man-Bat, Zsasz, Firefly, I think all four versions of Clayface, Black Mask, Professor Pyg, Solomon Grundy, Maxie Zeus, Deathstroke, the Clock King, Deadshot, Killer Moth, Catman, Mr. Freeze, Poison Ivy, Catwoman, Harley Quinn... if Batman's Villain Gallery got any whiter, it'd be a bleach commercial. The only exceptions I can think of offhand are Bane (fictional Latino), Lady Shiva (Vietnamese, I think?) and Ra's al Ghul and some of his asssassins (ambiguously Middle Eastasian).

And the whole 'Bruce is the mask' thing varies heavily from writer to writer anyhow.

I think perhaps it's more directed at the street level people he fights rather than big name villains.

[Lacuna Caster]

... 'impoverished minorities'? Sure, maybe some of the generic thugs that turn up in the Batman Cold Open of some of the stories...

I'm not saying this accusation is in any way balanced or reasonable, but it does get thrown out there by certain pundits (and to be fair, if you were playing the Arkham games, generic thugs of varying ethnicity will make up 80-90% of the opposition.)

You and I may know perfectly well that this is canonically nonsense, and there's a certain amount of anti-corruption measures and social philanthropy going on if you squint at the Nolan trilogy, but those are not a particularly front-and-centre element of the average Batman narrative that non-geeks would be exposed to. So it's nice to be able to cite chapter and verse and go "Nyah, GatesWayne Foundation, so there".

[Anteros]

I feel like most of the thugs in depicted in Batman mythos aren't minorities. Not that I've done a study on it or anything. We're probably skirting too close to real world stuff anyway for this forum.

[Quiver]

It's a glamorous and useful trope to build a hero on, there are several more in DC and Marvel alone, plus older examples like Green Hornet. Though, Iron Fist's backstory is more similar to Green Arrow but with 70's Martial Arts exploitation movie motif as the base rather than Robin Hood.

Man, now I really want to see Ollie and Danny cross paths at one point. Sounds like it could be a lot of fun (and provide a different place to riff from than the Green Arrow/Hawkeye comparisions)

[Mith]

Ok. I find this interesting, lets see the Punisher's capabilities and the oppositions capabilities:

-is basically a super-soldier through pure training in a bunch of stuff, from combat to stealth to camouflage to various oeprations....he basically knows everything militarily relevant to his tactics
-has martial arts capabilities
-mentally resilient enough to shrug off mind powers
-has a few super-tech from some villains

so basically, he is a Batman with less skills, less super-tech, all the guns and a completely willingness to kill any criminal he finds.

Against the Usual Thugs, he definitely wins, those are the ones he is used to. Penguin and Two-Face, yea they are definitely going down due to their insanities making them more thematic mob bosses and therefore even more predictable.

ZsasZ is just a Gotham's local knife serial killer, so he goes down.

But then you start getting the tougher ones:

Killer Croc:
super-strength, nigh-invulnerability to bullets and a completely bestial mindset. The Punisher has NO weapons that kill him due to his reliance on guns and is one of the villains that can truly justify Batman's existence- the entire point of Killer Croc is someone that Batman needs to outwit to defeat because he cannot possibly overpower him. The Punisher however doesn't use smarts, he uses guns and no matter how caliber the gun, Killer Croc is immune to it or the Gothamn Police would've already taken him down. This does not bode well for Punisher if he cannot even take down Gotham's dumbest criminal.

Clayface:
This is another Batman villain that justifies his existence- if you think that the Punisher can somehow gun down Killer Croc, then meet Clayface who is well.....a pile of sludge who can shapeshift into people and basically reshape himself however he wants. bullets don't hurt him, and he is known for his trickery, his disguises and his ability to give Batman the most trouble whenever he shows up in combat. He is another villain that doesn't need any minions to be a threat to the Dark Knight as well as needing an unorthodox approach to take down each time. Against the Punisher, Clayface could quite easily shapeshift into someone he doesn't suspect and then take him by surprise and even if the Punisher survives those first few seconds, the new few minutes aren't much better as Clayface will try to drown him in his own sludge or whatever else, there is honestly a lot of ways Clayface could kill Punisher, and seemingly no ways the Punisher could kill Clayface

Scarecrow:
Would a gas mask really be enough? guys like Scarecrow would have to be really cautious, but I can see them changing their tactics without Batman- Batman is smart, but The Punisher is more straightforward. Scarecrow I think would start fear-gassing civvies to mind control them into killing Punisher for him and stay out of his sights....and The Punishers thing is that he kills CRIMINALS. If he is attacked by civilians wielding guns under fear drugs, well, what can he do? He doesn't seem to have non-lethal options, so if a bunch of he went up against a Scarecrow who knew what he doing, Scarecrow would taunt the Punisher with the knowledge that all the people under his control are innocent people then stay as far form him as he can while gassing everyone else, and eventually either Punisher dies or he does gets ruthless enough to start killing the drugged people- and then when he finally gets to Scarecrow, Scarecrow can simply taught him with the knowledge that he has become a murderous thug that kills anyone just like the people he hunts and that he made his own fears come true, because why else would a man so dedicated to killing criminals, if not the fear of those criminals hurting the innocent? Caught off guard, Scarecrow then kills Punisher.

Poison Ivy:
Given her control over plants....hm, she might win if she keeps her distance and lets Punisher grow paranoid of every single living thing on gods green earth, but a lot of her toxins and such are close range and I don't see the Punisher allowing her to get close enough for them to apply. She would need to be stealthy and somehow seduce him in disguise and give him one of her poison kisses.....or like Scarecrow, she could mind control innocents into killing him for her and The Punisher dies because he can't super-science a way out of making a horrible decision like Batman can. But there is a good possibility of her dying here due to how impractical her powers are.

The Riddler:
The Punisher would never get close. See, The Riddler's thing is about proving how smart he is. he sets up all sorts of elaborate things and puzzles and such that you can't just brute force your way through. The Punisher being the direct "just kill him" sort of guy he is, goes after the Riddler and......gets stumped on the first puzzle and then dies to whatever trap The Riddler set while the Riddler gloats about how EASY it was to outwit him, how The Punisher is a poor replacement for Batman, and how he misses those days when he had an actual challenge.

Ra's Al Ghul:
If the Riddler is playing a great violin, then Ra's is composing a masterful symphony. A guy with a gun is not a threat to Ra's, Punisher is a mouse to Ra's, Ra's is a guy who has lived far longer than The Punisher has been killing, is the guy who immediately figured out Batman's identity, has a pit where he can recover from DEATH, -y'know that thing the thing The Punisher trusts to keep things in control- he is rich, he has global contacts all around the world, has resources that other Batman villains don't, its not a question of whether he knows the Punisher and what he will do, its a question of how will the Punisher will be dealt with, especially since Ra's as far as I know, is the only Batman villain who consistency remains in the shadows unheard of by the world at large aside from Batman himself. Ra's will simply make The Punisher's death look like an accident then carry on with his plans while sighing at the loss of The Detective he respects.

Bane:
Yeah genius level intellect, super-strength, reflexes, endurance, and super-healing all granted by venom? This is the guy who Broke the Bat himself, and The Punisher ain't ain't no Bat. Bane will just outwit Punisher into a position where he can melee the guy then throw him into a building, dead Punisher.

The Joker:
and then finally, we come to the Clown Prince of Crime himself. Lets let the Joker himself have a say:

The Joker: why hello, little Punny! Thats what I'm calling you, Punny. Your here to kill me right? Put a bullet in the ol' clown eh? Well I do admit you are more willing to kill than Batsy, but see that was never the point. You see I toyed with him because he was fun. He had the most deliciously brilliant mind to counter my own, we were two of a kind, violent unsound of mind, the yin to my yang, can't you see? My goal was never to kill him, only to break him, to make him admit that he was truly like me, to show him my joys so that we could band together and happily share my art with all the world! To put a smile on his face then spread that smile to everybody as they get the great joke of it all!

You? however are boring, Punny. What are you? a man with a vest and a gun, obsessed only with my death. There is no challenge, no pleasure in breaking you or toying with you, heck you do all the breaking of you yourself. a self-destructive gun-nut who has forced all of Gotham's hand to stop playing around and get down to business, that is all you are. Its kill or be killed with you, so we can't afford to take risks like we could with Batsy, because we all knew he could never bring himself to do it, no matter how hard any of us tried. How you ever thought you could replace Batsy makes me wonder if your the crazy one here. I miss Batsy, there was so much I still wanted to do with him, but alas, your the one taking his place, and your not really good at that- besides, even Lock Up is more interesting than you, and he is LOCK-UP! It was funny when he made Scarecrow run in fear.

Anyway this video will now self destruct in 1, 7, 4, eleventy billion- *BOOM*


But lets say hypothetically, that The Punisher somehow succeeds in killing them all, full Gotham Villaincide Run. Everyone from the lowest gang member to the Clown Prince of Crime. The police? ain't gonna be happy with him. Sure they will celebrate the demise of every villain ever, but vigilantes don't stop being vigilantes just because they got rid of a jerk. They will go after him knowing that he is a crazy mass-murderer no matter how incompetent people think they are, and unless he is willing to kill people who aren't criminals, he has no choice but to try to run or get imprisoned and thrown into Arkham Asylum just like all the people he killed- he is in DC universe now, and DC universe rules is that you kill that many people, you've become a villain, and its only a matter of time before some takes notice and takes out the Punisher. Furthermore the innocents of Gotham view Batman as a hero, but while they're thankful a guy like Joker is gone....they are also afraid of someone like the Punisher who might kill them for any little crime they might do

But even if he gets away with that, becomes Gothams new consistent vigilante that always escapes and and saves the day.....Gotham City itself is its own worst enemy to everyone in it. Canonically speaking, Gotham is CURSED. As in straight up, magically cursed to forever be this halloween-esque place where evil gathers and nothing changes. Even if The Punisher successfully kills Batman's Rogues Gallery, all that means is that a new one will rise up to take its place, but this time adapted to Punisher's tactics and mindset, and Punisher becomes apart of the Gotham curse, with new criminals forever crawling up out of the woodwork, new supervillains haunting its darkest alleys and the killing never ending, the hope turning to fear once more as the Punisher despite his success is not and never will be Batman, as he digs himself deeper into slaughtering every criminal he comes across until he kills someone over some petty crime that Batman would've justly let the person live like a man stealing bread to feed himself, and then he just another murderous thug in Gotham that people fear.

TL; DR: The Punisher would probably get rid of the minor guys faster, get taken out by one of the big Boys when they start paying attention to him, and then the villains fight each other for control of Gotham, or Punisher "wins" and eventually becomes just as bad as everyone else in that city.

Either way, Gotham City wins.

So Gotham City is a Dread Realm like Barovia. This explains so much.

[Sapphire Guard]

I'm not saying this accusation is in any way balanced or reasonable, but it does get thrown out there by certain pundits (and to be fair, if you were playing the Arkham games, generic thugs of varying ethnicity will make up 80-90% of the opposition.)

You and I may know perfectly well that this is canonically nonsense, and there's a certain amount of anti-corruption measures and social philanthropy going on if you squint at the Nolan trilogy, but those are not a particularly front-and-centre element of the average Batman narrative that non-geeks would be exposed to. So it's nice to be able to cite chapter and verse and go "Nyah, GatesWayne Foundation, so there".

I keep seeing this criticism, even though it's kind of like walking into a homeless shelter and telling them homelessness is their fault. Even the Lego movie got in on it.

[Lacuna Caster]

...Yeah. Lego Batman was entertaining as a standalone composite-strawman parody, but given even BvS or TDKR had essentially the same ultimate moral takeaway about teamwork trumping solo vigilantism, it's hard to know what specific portrayal it's taking aim at, exactly.

[Keltest]

...Yeah. Lego Batman was entertaining as a standalone composite-strawman parody, but given even BvS or TDKR had essentially the same ultimate moral takeaway about teamwork trumping solo vigilantism, it's hard to know what specific portrayal it's taking aim at, exactly.

Er... all of them? When you take a step back, Batman is a pretty silly character no matter how grimdark the particular incarnation gets. Look at some of his rogues gallery. his evil opposite is a clown. Gotham is cartoonishly bad in pretty much every batman media.

[Dr.Samurai]

blasphemer!!!!!

[Lacuna Caster]

I'm just scratching my head trying to think of a previous incarnation that actually refused to work with either sidekicks, or the police, or members of wayne enterprises, or the justice league, or the outsiders, or the more amenable members of his rogue's gallery. I mean, you can grab bits and pieces from various incarnations- the Nolan version lacks sidekicks, the DKR version insists on obedience, the BvS version has no interest in second chances, the Arkham version has an unhealthy fixation on beating down petty crooks, etc.- but I'm not sure the specific idea of Batman that the Lego version wants to tear down actually exists.

[Keltest]

I'm just scratching my head trying to think of a previous incarnation that actually refused to work with either sidekicks, or the police, or members of wayne enterprises, or the justice league, or the outsiders, or the more amenable members of his rogue's gallery. I mean, you can grab bits and pieces from various incarnations- the Nolan version lacks sidekicks, the DKR version insists on obedience, the BvS version has no interest in second chances, the Arkham version has an unhealthy fixation on beating down petty crooks, etc.- but I'm not sure the specific idea of Batman that the Lego version wants to tear down actually exists.

All of them, and none of them. Batman is a character with a (very) long and storied history, which is not always especially dignified. The Lego version is tearing down the idea that Batman Is Serious Business. The animated Justice League cartoons but Batman at the butt of a few jokes, like when he had to go up on stage and sing to undo a curse on Wonder Woman. He would take it with grace, but silly things happened to him, and stoic, serious batman made people laugh sometimes, and that's good.

[Lacuna Caster]

Hmm. This is gonna be one of those discussions.

I can't say I've personally ever had a problem with serious batman. I do have a problem with versions of the character that are gratuitously brutal, my preferred flavour would probably have a few more pulp sci-fi trappings than, say, the nolan-verse incarnation, and one can always criticise the concept on the grounds of plausible logistics and social responsibility. I would even broadly agree that the character is a trifle over-exposed at this point. But pointing out wacky costumes is a superficial quibble, and, well... sometimes z-lister villains are z-listers for a reason. If you sanded down the pointy ears, blacked out the logo and had him use leet-ninja-hacker-skillz against, e.g, nazi sex traffickers, I don't think anyone would call the concept noticeably sillier than mission impossible or girl with the dragon tattoo. And I think that bringing pre-teens into combat situations would be inexcusable against villains with guns.

I do think the virtue of a given representation is heavily dependent on writing skill, so I'll happily take The Brave And The Bold over Batman Returns. I can sympathise with fans of Robin and Batgirl who'd like to see them in movies more often, and I am of course glad that B:TAS and JLU exist, though I actually think they fall a little more on the dark end of the spectrum.

So, in summary, if Lego Batman floats your boat, more power to you. Not sure it changes the landscape, though.

[Keltest]

Hmm. This is gonna be one of those discussions.

I can't say I've personally ever had a problem with serious batman. I do have a problem with versions of the character that are gratuitously brutal, my preferred flavour would probably have a few more pulp sci-fi trappings than, say, the nolan-verse incarnation, and one can always criticise the concept on the grounds of plausible logistics and social responsibility. I would even broadly agree that the character is a trifle over-exposed at this point. But pointing out wacky costumes is a superficial quibble, and, well... sometimes z-lister villains are z-listers for a reason. If you sanded down the pointy ears, blacked out the logo and had him use leet-ninja-hacker-skillz against, e.g, nazi sex traffickers, I don't think anyone would call the concept noticeably sillier than mission impossible or girl with the dragon tattoo. And I think that bringing pre-teens into combat situations would be inexcusable against villains with guns.

I do think the virtue of a given representation is heavily dependent on writing skill, so I'll happily take The Brave And The Bold over Batman Returns. I can sympathise with fans of Robin and Batgirl who'd like to see them in movies more often, and I am of course glad that B:TAS and JLU exist, though I actually think they fall a little more on the dark end of the spectrum.

So, in summary, if Lego Batman floats your boat, more power to you. Not sure it changes the landscape, though.

I mean, I don't necessarily mind Serious Batman either, as long as its done with a little perspective. Batman and his luggage can get freaking weird, and no matter how raspy his voice gets, he's never not going to be a man in a bat costume punching people. Live Action batman in particular seems to forget that sometimes.

[Sapphire Guard]

Oh, sure sure, but the the thing about the Bat is that he seems to get the criticism that could be applied to basically any superhero, even though he's most often the one that is doing the most work about it. He cooperates much more with the police and the legal system than the typical superhero. He does much more socially responsible stuff than the typical hero. He has a backroom team, sidekicks, and allies he collaborates with fairly extensively. But the parodies keep showing off this brooding loner doing nothing to solve the real problems, even though the majority of the stories that show this kind of Bat only do it because they are building towards an aesop about teamwork.

[Anteros]

I think it's just a result of him being the most popular comic figure out there, so he's always the one that jumps to people's minds. You don't see as many criticisms of Reed Richards (random example) because most people just don't know or care who he is. Everyone knows who Batman is, and everyone knows his story.

[Kyberwulf]

I think talking about the bat is a moot point. He was taking out at the beginning of the post.

[Lacuna Caster]

Oh, sure sure, but the the thing about the Bat is that he seems to get the criticism that could be applied to basically any superhero, even though he's most often the one that is doing the most work about it. He cooperates much more with the police and the legal system than the typical superhero. He does much more socially responsible stuff than the typical hero. He has a backroom team, sidekicks, and allies he collaborates with fairly extensively. But the parodies keep showing off this brooding loner doing nothing to solve the real problems, even though the majority of the stories that show this kind of Bat only do it because they are building towards an aesop about teamwork.

The flip side of this is that, to a certain extent, working outside the system is the vigilante's raison d'etre, presumably because the wider social context is so riddled with corruption that caving to pressure from peers and allies tends to be a step down, ethically speaking. (That's essentially the point of Year One or Gotham Central, for example.)

Of course, this raises it's own unsettling connotations, particularly when you settle into an arms race of unpleasantness between increasingly ghoulish villains and increasingly brutal antiheroes, but I think the role and necessity of punitive justice is never going to entirely disappear.

Is there any particular virtue to setting that type of story is a faintly fantastical universe with rejuvenating ninja illuminati, rather than doing The Wire? Hard to say. The former seems to pull in more eyeballs, though.

[Sapphire Guard]

The flip side of this is that, to a certain extent, working outside the system is the vigilante's raison d'etre, presumably because the wider social context is so riddled with corruption that caving to pressure from peers and allies tends to be a step down, ethically speaking. (That's essentially the point of Year One or Gotham Central, for example.)

Of course, this raises it's own unsettling connotations, particularly when you settle into an arms race of unpleasantness between increasingly ghoulish villains and increasingly brutal antiheroes, but I think the role and necessity of punitive justice is never going to entirely disappear.

Is there any particular virtue to setting that type of story is a faintly fantastical universe with rejuvenating ninja illuminati, rather than doing The Wire? Hard to say. The former seems to pull in more eyeballs, though.

Well, the Wire is an unrivalled flash of brilliance, very few people can pull that off successfully.

I didn't find that to be the theme of Gotham Central, so much as ' in a world of powered people, policing can be ill equipped to deal with some things, but that doesn't mean the police are not doing vital work. Like with the Wire, it was 'yes, there's corruption and incompetence, but that doesn't make everything worthless.'

That video is being kind of unfair to most of the movies it mentions, although I'll admit the MCU leans a little too heavily on 'every authority figure outside this small circle of people is either corrupt or inept'. (The DCU is a little better on this so far)

When you're dissecting on that level, it seems to amount almost to blaming the characters for either not having meta knowledge "I'm perfectly safe in this fight, so I can worry about bystanders rather than just staying alive and saving the world', or not being infallible. Batman seems to sometimes get blamed simultaneously for not being infallible -'why haven't you solved every problem ever yet?'- and being too infallible 'Why are you punching so much above your weight?'

If you're reading or watching superhero movies or reading comics, there are certain things you have to accept going in if you plan to enjoy it, much like how in every zombie story (except resident evil games) you have to accept that the military somehow didn't squash the horde in like a week, regardless of how unlikely that is.