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2017-06-23, 12:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
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2017-06-23, 02:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
I rather agree. I suspect whoever wrote that either didn't know the name was in use, or forgot.
That suggests laziness more than intent.
I guess it just grates on me that they did nothing to adapt the mythological background to D&D lore.Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
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2017-06-23, 04:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
I liked that version of Naberius, we don't need another one. But if you are in an inventing mood, the Qorrash are still leaderless.
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2017-06-23, 05:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
Thank you for the kind offer; but I'd rather not impose. Forcing/demanding a different Afrocanon just because the one given differs from expectation is akin to heresy as far as I'm concerned.
On a completely different topic though: Fey. Other than the Fey feature articles, they don't get a lot of love afaik; so questions about their racial origins, place on the cosmic chessboard and their pantheon go largely unanswered.
In your opinion, are the Fey "relevant" in the grand scheme of things and thus "deserve" their own full pantheon/plane; or is it best to just file them under the Eladrin/Arborea section of things and be done with them?
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2017-06-24, 01:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
It is said that The Unwelcome is worshiped by harpies. What is their "church" like? Favorite sacrifice? Clerics?
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2017-06-24, 02:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
The Unwelcome? Do you mean the female demon lord Barbu? (what the abyss do you call that? A demon lady?) Or is there some other divine being with that title?
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2017-06-24, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
"Demon Queen" tends to be the usual counterpart used "Demon Queen of Spiders" "Demon Queen of Mariliths" and so on - though some use "Lady of"
So, if Ardat The Unavowed was feeling boastful, she might announce herself as "Demon Queen of Harpies".Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2017-06-24, 11:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
I did a little bit of reading into the mythical beginning of the D&D cosmology and discovered 4 of the entities who were present at the "big bang"; the twinned serpants whose separation created the heavens and hells, Ao the Allfather, and the Lady of Pain.
I would like to ask afro; who else might have been around at that point? Who or what are the Ancient Brethren? And, if you're willing to speculate, what else might the Lady of Pain be, if not either one of them or simply some unique self-appointed agent?~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
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2017-06-25, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
The first two gods in my canon were Io and Rhiannon, you tell me.
and thus "deserve" their own full pantheon/plane; or is it best to just file them under the Eladrin/Arborea section of things and be done with them?
Well, I mean, it's not. You're thinking of Ardat, the Unavowed. I mean, I know you're actually thinking of Barbu because you think her title is hilarious and you want more details, but you made a fritzed connection this time, Chuckles.
Well, none of that is canonically established whatsoever. But sure.
I would like to ask afro; who else might have been around at that point?
Who or what are the Ancient Brethren?
The Ancient Brethren were an antediluvian people from the world of Oerth, who had tapped into the secrets of powerful magic by studying words of the Language Primeval, a tongue associated with epic magic. At some point, they were conflated with the idea of vastly powerful cosmic beings, via a series of misreadings, culminating in loose speculation in a "mysteries of D&D" article in Dragon 359. Many legends are connected to them, including one of many rumors bouncing around the Planes suggesting that the Lady of Pain was once of their kindred, and it is the understanding of the lich-god Vecna that he is a descendant of this race.
And, if you're willing to speculate, what else might the Lady of Pain be, if not either one of them or simply some unique self-appointed agent?Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
Manual of the Planes 5th Edition: for all the things the official 5E Planescape didn't cover. Check it out.
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2017-06-25, 03:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
Thanks! It's great that you're back, and I appreciate the plot hook.
I have a couple of questions for you...
First, you've mentioned a few times in this new thread that you made a list of gods. Where could I find that?
The other question I had is about something concerning deities and I was wondering if there was any more info out there. I've seen come up in a number of novels that the gods have a sort of extra level of reality that they sometimes inhabit that isn't described as being part of the regularly accessible planes, nor does it appear to be part of their divine realm. While there, they are larger than life, and what affects them there appears to be permanent and final to their existence.
In the novel Tymora's Luck, Chauntea is hanging out over Faerun, overseeing and facilitating farm growth. Lathander shows up, and scuffs his foot, screwing up the harvest in an entire country. The whole thing is viewed by a special scrying session by the Sensates in Sigil.
In the Lady Penitent series (The first two of which, at least, were in 3.5), Elistraee and Lolth are playing a for-keeps game of sava with lesser beings as pawns, in a place between their divine realms overseen by Ao, who appears as a giant eye far above where they are. At some point, their pawns are transported to a plane where the colossal form of (I think) Guandahar is roaming, they kill it, and evidently it's his true form, and he's dead for good... he had an avatar at Lloth's feet, and he keeled right over.
So, my question here is: What's the deal with this view that the gods have, or place that they often inhabit? Is it only in the novels, or does it come up somewhere else? Is it a god only plane, or just something representing how the gods see the Prime? Something else? Does the view from these two sets of books represent different things?
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2017-06-26, 02:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
Inside the spoiler.
In the novel Tymora's Luck, Chauntea is hanging out over Faerun, overseeing and facilitating farm growth. Lathander shows up, and scuffs his foot, screwing up the harvest in an entire country. The whole thing is viewed by a special scrying session by the Sensates in Sigil.
So, my question here is: What's the deal with this view that the gods have, or place that they often inhabit? Is it only in the novels, or does it come up somewhere else? Is it a god only plane, or just something representing how the gods see the Prime?Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
Manual of the Planes 5th Edition: for all the things the official 5E Planescape didn't cover. Check it out.
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2017-06-27, 05:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
After some digging I finally found Rhiannon in dragon 155 (which, incidentally, really showed me just how much the Fey fell to the wayside in the transition to 3rd ed). May I ask, why did you choose her as your Fey progenitor deity instead of Titania, and what's their relation in (your) canon?
What meant was that it seems to me that the Fey are basically portrayed as side-line characters on the great wheel, so I wondered whether it was sensible for them to have a whole stocked pantheon; when instead you could just have them serve the court of stars just as well.
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2017-06-27, 07:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
If enough people started worshipping a dead power, would the dead power be revived? Would a totally new one emerge?
Actually, barring cases like Bane or Bhaal's, can a dead power be returned to life? What could accomplish such a feat?Originally Posted by KKL
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2017-06-28, 05:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
I asked the same question on the first page of the thread. The answer-post is here.
I apologize for linking the whole post; I haven't figured out yet how to quote more than one post that way.
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2017-06-28, 10:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
Two Questions:
1. How much effect does belief have on the makeup of the non-outer planes? I know it has changed the exemplars and makeup of the outer planes, but I don't think I have ever seen belief cause one of the other planes or their denizens to change.
2. How much information does a god have about their realm? If I walk into, lets say the library of lore, does Boccob instantly know my location, what I look like, how many coins I'm carrying on me and what my favorite food is? If he does know this, is it an active or passive process. I.E. if he doesn't think to check will he still know my favorite food and the amount of coins I carry?
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2017-06-28, 10:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
Last edited by Svata; 2017-06-28 at 10:39 AM.
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2017-06-30, 11:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
Because the mythology around Titania suggests she arose from somewhere, rather than being one of the oldest deities in the multiverse.
What meant was that it seems to me that the Fey are basically portrayed as side-line characters on the great wheel
so I wondered whether it was sensible for them to have a whole stocked pantheon;
when instead you could just have them serve the court of stars just as well.
Yep.
Would a totally new one emerge?
Actually, barring cases like Bane or Bhaal's, can a dead power be returned to life? What could accomplish such a feat?
Zero.
2. How much information does a god have about their realm? If I walk into, lets say the library of lore, does Boccob instantly know my location, what I look like, how many coins I'm carrying on me and what my favorite food is? If he does know this, is it an active or passive process. I.E. if he doesn't think to check will he still know my favorite food and the amount of coins I carry?
Without specific abilities pertaining to hidden knowledge, a god does not know anything other than what could be externally perceived about you. Some deities may possess abilities to transcend these limitations, or of course employ powerful magic for a similar purpose.Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
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2017-06-30, 02:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
Coming off of that earlier question, two more:
1. What in Asmo's name is the story with Orcus being Tenebrous and whatnot? He was a demon prince (Orcus), and then he was killed and became a god (Tenebrous), and then became Orcus again, or ... yeah, if you could break this one down for me, I'd appreciate it.
2. What happens when two gods get conflated by a huge portion of their worshippers? Do they merge, or share from a pool, or steal shamelessly from each other, or fight to the death, or what? If there's more than one possibility, what determining factors are involved?
Presumably, though, the probability of a god of wizards like Boccob not having such powerful magic in place rests squarely in the realm of nope.Last edited by gkathellar; 2017-06-30 at 02:38 PM.
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2017-06-30, 02:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
In essence, through some strange happenstance of the planes, Orcus's death catalyzed his divinity - but Kiaransalee had already been working to douse the spark. Tenebrous became a sort of "undead god," barely more than a vestige, the ambulatory residue of a being of belief slowly circling the drain. Through the rediscovery of his hidden Wand and the efforts of his high priest Quah-Namog, Orcus was restored to life, but the transition brought him back as a demon prince anew, rather than a god. It's possible that Orcus's associations with death and undeath were responsible for this strange set of circumstances.
2. What happens when two gods get conflated by a huge portion of their worshippers? Do they merge, or share from a pool, or steal shamelessly from each other, or fight to the death, or what? If there's more than one possibility, what determining factors are involved?
Shar sends in agents who claim to serve the other god - Eshowdow, for instance, a Chultan deity of shadow. These worshipers teach rites and practices that, while uttered in the name of Eshowdow, are done in veneration of the Dark Goddess. The manifestations that answer the prayers of these worshipers will be Shar in disguise. Sectarian infighting is likely to result, and the syncretism that follows will see either Shar's traditions or Eshowdow's predominate, determining whether the worship is hers or his. Occasionally one just straight-up murders the other to make the process cleaner - Shar ganked Ibrandul and then pretended to be him for years in order to acquire his portfolio of caverns.e.[/QUOTE]Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
Manual of the Planes 5th Edition: for all the things the official 5E Planescape didn't cover. Check it out.
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2017-06-30, 03:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
He certainly has the capability, but Boccob may not be the best example of that kind of thing. His best known epithet/title is The Uncaring, after all - the level of interest/paranoia/suspicion/whatever required to want to surveil every little happening in his divine realm just isn't there.
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2017-06-30, 05:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
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2017-07-02, 05:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
Can you speculate on what would happen to the Abyssal balance of power if Orcus were to achieve proper godhood? I presume even his disinterest would change things, since it would give Graz'zt and Demogorgon room to maneuver.
Originally Posted by KKL
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2017-07-05, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
I thought I'd answered this in a past thread, just had to dig it up.
It would put the other two [Grazz't and Demogorgon] on high alert, and it would change the dynamics of Lolth's interactions with the rest.Orcus would have more power on the Material Plane to crush their cults, and more personal power to pressure his foes with.Lolth has a special role among the preeminent lords of the Abyss, as she's one of their number in addition to being a goddess ("Demon Queen of Spiders"). As the only deity in the "gang," she's got special influence and a unique role in Abyssal politics, one that she'd start to feel crowded out of if there was suddenly a new god in town.Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
Manual of the Planes 5th Edition: for all the things the official 5E Planescape didn't cover. Check it out.
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2017-07-06, 11:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
Would it be fair to say that the sudden loss of Graz'zt, who has a whole three layers and arguably scores the highest on schemes and manipulations, would throw the abyss into significantly more turmoil than then loss of any other single Demonlord?
Also, any thoughts on why stuff is usually about felling Orcus (happened) or Demogorgon (e.g. Savage Tide), but Graz'zt never gets the BBEG spotlight?
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2017-07-07, 03:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
A partial answer to this is "not initially". Graz'zt is very much a deceiver (although he is not the 'Prince of Deception' - that is Fraz Urb Luu); thus the initial reaction of pretty much all of Graz'zt's enemies, allies and underlings will be "what trick is he pulling now?"
Any move to take advantage of his disappearance will be cautious probes to see what happens, followed by forces they can afford to lose when any trap is sprung; only once they are sure (really, really sure) he is gone will other demon lords use sufficient force to endanger themselves should it go wrong.
Compare this to when one of the less subtle demon lords vanish - instant mobilization from anyone with a stake in what happens.
Yes, they have more to gain when fighting over Graz'zt's territories, but the initial reaction will be much less than for other lesser players who are less likely to be pulling a fast one.
Also, any thoughts on why stuff is usually about felling Orcus (happened) or Demogorgon (e.g. Savage Tide), but Graz'zt never gets the BBEG spotlight?
The only time when PCs might go up against Graz'zt directly is when someone else is setting Graz'zt up as the BBEG...
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2017-07-07, 04:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
Afroakuma,
I was browsing the boards at the Piazza and I came across this question link (full text below) and I thought "now there's an Afro question if I ever saw one".Originally Posted by Big Mac
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2017-07-07, 06:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
There's plenty of layers which never got more than a name, at least. I think the deepest layer is still Kali's domain, which is six hundred forty something, off the top of my head.
As for fitting other settings into Planescape, Planescape just claims that all settings are part of it. Setting specific material that contradicts Planescape is just primitive prime material people misunderstanding how the planes work. Dark Sun had its own planes too, and yet there's still Dark Sun characters in Planescape.Last edited by Eldan; 2017-07-07 at 06:39 AM.
Resident Vancian Apologist
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2017-07-07, 08:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
The currently deepest layer is Nr. 663: Zionyn, the realm of Obox-Ob, which is overrun with fiendish vermin and insect-like demons. This is the only place in the abyss where you can find cities of ekolids, an obyrith species that is normaly to stupid and feral to build cities or take class levels.
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2017-07-07, 11:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
No.
Also, any thoughts on why stuff is usually about felling Orcus (happened) or Demogorgon (e.g. Savage Tide), but Graz'zt never gets the BBEG spotlight?
I suppose I should.Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
Manual of the Planes 5th Edition: for all the things the official 5E Planescape didn't cover. Check it out.
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2017-07-07, 02:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII
Athas is specifically integrated into the cosmology, but is cut off from the Outer Planes by internal factors. It's likely that Athasians had access to them in the past, but something about the state of their world now limits them to the Ethereal, Inner, and distinctly Athasian Planes. This isn't limited to the living - the dead are likewise unable to find their way to the Great Wheel.
Eberron's situation is likely similar, as Baker has tacitly stated that it's probably just distant from the main cosmology. Mystara is the other outstanding setting, and fro has a more complex view on that but still holds that it's connected.Originally Posted by KKL