Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

[Eldariel]

Or rather, it is solved in the abstract---win initiative & knock out. The question is whether the abstract resolution is representative of game play. The difficulty with real game play is that it varies so much.

Well, solving in abstract would IMHO be the same as a mathematical proof that for all N, where N is any circumstance imaginable, X beats Y.

Several things here:

1. I don't see a reason for the fighter to typically engage beyond 120' when illusions are a known possibility.
2. An illusion created by a Pit Fiend without any knowledge of the fighter's existence or location seems unlikely to be so convincing as to invite a violation of rule 1.
3. It does not follow that the fighter must constantly use the Gem. Given stealth, the fighter can plausibly safely approach and periodically use the Gem, stretching it's use out over many hours. Used in this way, the Gem is far more effective than the True Seeing spell itself.
4. The existence of illusions implies the need to refresh the illusions. That need to refresh every 18 minutes implies that the fighter can setup an ambush on the Pit Fiend depending on specific local geometry. For example, if the Pit Fiend maintains an illusion in the middle of a 60' hallway, the fighter can hide where the illusion is and ambush the Pit Fiend when it drops by to refresh the illusion.

I was elaborating the point on the whole day of adventuring. If Fighter does indeed always check all his targets, chances are he'll check quite a few creatures every day which might consume all the Gem charges before the actual illusions are even encountered. At any rate, depending on the nature of the illusions the Fighter may never know what's causing them; it could just as well be an Aboleth or a resetting trap for instance. I don't think the Fighter can thus deduce the identity of his opponent even when he does realize the existence of illusions, provided he does actually always enter within 120' of every creature he encounters and checks them with his gem. If he does not, depending on the nature of the illusions, it's possible he'll never realize the existence of illusions in the first place.

The undead have no ability to penetrate stealth (Listen 8 vs. Move Silently 47, Spot 8 vs Hide 70), so they can be disposed after the Pit Fiend with relative impunity. It's not clear that's what would happen in practice, but the lack of necessity implies the Fighter can chose when/where to dispose of the undead advantageously.

This is true only if he can locate and attack the Pit Fiend while ignoring the Undead. Initially it's likely he's completely unaware of the Pit Fiend's location due to the Pit Fiend's Greater Teleport, Flight, Invisibility and Illusions. This will only change if he sneaks up to 120' away from the actual Pit Fiend without being detected. If the undead happen to be between him and the Pit Fiend's real location, or the Pit Fiend is not even detectable from cover, it might be necessary to attack the Undead to get near the opponent.

In practice, the fighter would use both cover and invisibility since some opponents have see invisibility. However, the Pit Fiend has no ability to penetrate Invisibility (a weakness), so even in places with no cover at all, the Fighter's hide works against the Pit Fiend.

I definitely agree that circumstances vary. The Pit Fiend certainly does have a mobility advantage, but that seems relatively irrelevant in tactical play when the Pit Fiend is knocked out before it can act. Given the above, my expectation is that the abstract outcome is reasonably representative across these circumstances.

Granted, though I have yet to reach a conclusion about what's a likely way for the scenario to play out.

[Beheld]

I was elaborating the point on the whole day of adventuring. If Fighter does indeed always check all his targets, chances are he'll check quite a few creatures every day which might consume all the Gem charges before the actual illusions are even encountered. At any rate, depending on the nature of the illusions the Fighter may never know what's causing them; it could just as well be an Aboleth or a resetting trap for instance. I don't think the Fighter can thus deduce the identity of his opponent even when he does realize the existence of illusions, provided he does actually always enter within 120' of every creature he encounters and checks them with his gem. If he does not, depending on the nature of the illusions, it's possible he'll never realize the existence of illusions in the first place.

He has zero spellcraft or knowledge ranks. But he knows the difference between Persistent Image and Permanent Image because...........


Oooops.

[Anthrowhale]

Well, solving in abstract would IMHO be the same as a mathematical proof that for all N, where N is any circumstance imaginable, X beats Y.

That would be great but seems essentially unachievable. The best I can come up with is "win initiative, knock out" which deals with many but not all N.

I was elaborating the point on the whole day of adventuring. If Fighter does indeed always check all his targets, chances are he'll check quite a few creatures every day which might consume all the Gem charges before the actual illusions are even encountered.

It is possible, but I've only rarely had game days with encounters involving hundreds of possibly-inimical creatures (or illusions of such creatures), each encountered individually. Partly, this is probably an issue of scale---DMs & players often avoid larger scale combat for reasons of tractability.

I think it's also important to consider the sensing question in the context of a party as the starting point for this discussion is: Can a fighter contribute? The Gem of Seeing is significantly better than a caster using True Seeing since it doesn't cost money to use and can be used discontiguously. If other party members in a party of 4 contribute as much to sensing as the fighter does, I expect the party does well.

At any rate, depending on the nature of the illusions the Fighter may never know what's causing them; it could just as well be an Aboleth or a resetting trap for instance. I don't think the Fighter can thus deduce the identity of his opponent even when he does realize the existence of illusions, provided he does actually always enter within 120' of every creature he encounters and checks them with his gem. If he does not, depending on the nature of the illusions, it's possible he'll never realize the existence of illusions in the first place.

I agree that the nature of the illusions does not reveal much about the nature of the opponent. It would suggest something beyond a mummy, and illusions timing out, being refreshed, or appearing would suggest something about their duration and the location of an opponent.

This is true only if he can locate and attack the Pit Fiend while ignoring the Undead. Initially it's likely he's completely unaware of the Pit Fiend's location due to the Pit Fiend's Greater Teleport, Flight, Invisibility and Illusions. This will only change if he sneaks up to 120' away from the actual Pit Fiend without being detected. If the undead happen to be between him and the Pit Fiend's real location, or the Pit Fiend is not even detectable from cover, it might be necessary to attack the Undead to get near the opponent.

Since the fighter is tiny, it can actually walk through and/or share the undead's space without hindrance. Since the fighter has blink, it can also walk through walls. Given this, it's never necessary to attack the undead to get to a Pit Fiend and there is nowhere in the town that the Pit Fiend can hide. (Again though, I'm not saying the fighter wouldn't ever attack a Mummy before the Pit Fiend. Isolated undead are plausibly good targets of opportunity so "Mummy patrol is overdue" might be a plausible signal to the Pit Fiend that something is up.)

[Lans]

Reading the knowledge rules, they say

you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.

It doesn't say you have to use this skill to ID monsters and there weakesses

[Eldariel]

That would be great but seems essentially unachievable. The best I can come up with is "win initiative, knock out" which deals with many but not all N.

It deals with some, certainly. Though does the damage suffice assuming the Pit Fiend is immune to the elemental portion?

It is possible, but I've only rarely had game days with encounters involving hundreds of possibly-inimical creatures (or illusions of such creatures), each encountered individually. Partly, this is probably an issue of scale---DMs & players often avoid larger scale combat for reasons of tractability.

Perhaps. Creatures with At Will Illusions are also kind of rare. At any rate, in this case it seems most logical and there certainly are numerous creatures and classes that can and should use such tactics in battlefields of their choosing.

I think it's also important to consider the sensing question in the context of a party as the starting point for this discussion is: Can a fighter contribute? The Gem of Seeing is significantly better than a caster using True Seeing since it doesn't cost money to use and can be used discontiguously. If other party members in a party of 4 contribute as much to sensing as the fighter does, I expect the party does well.

It's nice but casters can certainly outsource this: Greater Prying Eyes, plenty of Simulacrums, Planar Bindings and Summons among other things can handle True Seeing at will (many all day).

I agree that the nature of the illusions does not reveal much about the nature of the opponent. It would suggest something beyond a mummy, and illusions timing out, being refreshed, or appearing would suggest something about their duration and the location of an opponent.

True, there might be a pattern that might or might not betray something of their origin. This is something I find impossible to call without seeing the scenario played out a couple of times as it depends so much on how the illusions are optimally used.

Overall, the Fighter seems about as good as possible but his class features aren't contributing that much to his stealth nor detection (freeing up his generic feats for a total of +5) - he's basically doing almost all of this through judicious use of items (props for that).

Due to tactics I find it hard not to compare the build to Ranger, who with their Camouflage, HiPS, class skills, tracking and spells would be insanely much better at this kind of a tactic for instance, in spite of lacking many of the feats. Barbarian would be an interesting point of comparison - probably about the same or slightly worse even? Barb kit is also poor for this.

Since the fighter is tiny, it can actually walk through and/or share the undead's space without hindrance. Since the fighter has blink, it can also walk through walls. Given this, it's never necessary to attack the undead to get to a Pit Fiend and there is nowhere in the town that the Pit Fiend can hide. (Again though, I'm not saying the fighter wouldn't ever attack a Mummy before the Pit Fiend. Isolated undead are plausibly good targets of opportunity so "Mummy patrol is overdue" might be a plausible signal to the Pit Fiend that something is up.)

Well, the Fighter is still subject to Paralysis from Despair (assuming you read that as not blocked by FoM - I do though I can see the broad reading blocking it); if that happens at a poor timing, that can be problematic as well.


Also, given the Fighter likely has to move at a rather slow speed out of combat and that he has to refresh his spells occasionally (which carries the risk of being heard - what's the DC assuming the Sleight of Hand check succeeds?) and occasionally get shunted back from a Wall, it might be difficult to ever locate the rather mobile Pit Fiend who might also reside at any given airborne location (which the Fighter has a hard time checking while still maintaining cover). If the Fighter never does, I'd assume he'd conclude some of the Mummies is causing all this (lacking Knowledges, I'm not sure about his general monster awareness) and start killing Mummies, which probably gives him away.

[Beheld]

Reading the knowledge rules, they say

It doesn't say you have to use this skill to ID monsters and there weakesses

I mean if you read the Pit Fiend's entry it says it can cast Wish once per year, it doesn't say it can't cast it once per round.

The fact that you could identify a monster by some other means doesn't mean anything if you don't have any other means.

EDIT: I'm also seeing Anthrowhale is apparently just talking about how he can walk through the mummies squares.

Quite aside from how this is sort of false, because a Mummy is only two size categories larger, so even though the Halfling can move into the square, mummies can't move into squares he is in and therefore bump into him and know about his presence, that still means he has no cover or concealment.

So he's right back to being instantly noticed by anything with see invisibility for his totally not directly Pit Fiend metagamed character that for some reason always performs actions that only work against Pit Fiends and not against Necromancers.

[Anthrowhale]

It deals with some, certainly. Though does the damage suffice assuming the Pit Fiend is immune to the elemental portion?

That would move the damage from almost-always-works to not-quite-enough. Under this houserule(*) it would be better to drop an elemental damage (plausibly: fire) and invest in bane[evil outsider] resulting in somewhat-more-but-less-general damage.

(*) Yes, I'd emphasize that this is a houserule in the context of Beheld's combination of intransigence and inability to cite a rule.

It's nice but casters can certainly outsource this: Greater Prying Eyes, plenty of Simulacrums, Planar Bindings and Summons among other things can handle True Seeing at will (many all day).

The problem with outsourced True Seeing is that it can easily imply a need to cast True Seeing as your first action in combat. That first action is a remarkably precious resource. The only obviously better approach that I know is via Rod[Extend] Shapechange[Balor] or some such.

Due to tactics I find it hard not to compare the build to Ranger, who with their Camouflage, HiPS, class skills, tracking and spells would be insanely much better at this kind of a tactic for instance, in spite of lacking many of the feats. Barbarian would be an interesting point of comparison - probably about the same or slightly worse even? Barb kit is also poor for this.

Yeah, agreed. A Ranger ends up with significantly better stealth/detection. A Barbarian is significantly worse since the lack of feats bites hard.

Well, the Fighter is still subject to Paralysis from Despair (assuming you read that as not blocked by FoM - I do though I can see the broad reading blocking it); if that happens at a poor timing, that can be problematic as well.

Paralysis is explicitly enumerated in FoM, so there should not be a rules dispute?

This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis,...

Any magic producing a paralysis effect should be negated.

Also, given the Fighter likely has to move at a rather slow speed out of combat and that he has to refresh his spells occasionally (which carries the risk of being heard - what's the DC assuming the Sleight of Hand check succeeds?) and occasionally get shunted back from a Wall, it might be difficult to ever locate the rather mobile Pit Fiend who might also reside at any given airborne location (which the Fighter has a hard time checking while still maintaining cover). If the Fighter never does, I'd assume he'd conclude some of the Mummies is causing all this (lacking Knowledges, I'm not sure about his general monster awareness) and start killing Mummies, which probably gives him away.

1. The Sleight of Hand DC is technically opposed by Spot (eh?) so the DC is 29-48, enough to zero out the chance for a Mummy noticing something. There is a chance the Pit Fiend will notice, but odds are long since distance penalties and LOS constraints apply. Even if we houserule to an opposed Listen check (which certainly seems more reasonable), the odds of early detection remain low.
2. Shunting from wall-walking only happens when the wall if 5' thick or more so it should be quite rare.

   For each 5 feet of solid material you walk through, there is a 50% chance that you become material.

3. True Seeing has a range of 120' while Create Undead has a range of 90', hence the Pit Fiend must at least sometimes be within visual range under flying-creating-mummies-and-illusions tactics.
4. I agree the fighter might start killing off the mummies if scouting reveals nothing else. However True Seeing has a range of 120', so that's a minimum +12 penalty to stealth if the Pit Fiend wants to stay out of range. This is relevant if mummies start dying off since the Fighter would snipe them using either total cover or Hide 42 taking into account lack of invisibility, the -20 penalty from sniping, and the +12 from range. In this situation, the Pit Fiend typically becomes aware the Fighter is around (mummies die), but not where the Fighter is. That's a reasonable argument against the Pit Fiend being surprised but that's ok in the Pit Fiend killing plan (win initiative, full attack).

I finished an analysis of full attack damage vs. various creatures for the Halfling below. These are generated by a simulator using 10^6 montecarlo full attacks. They take into account Silver(-1 damage), Bane(+2+2d6 damage, +2 to hit), Alignment & DR (assuming optimal arrow choice), regeneration (damage-regen), True Seeing or See Invisibility (-2 to hit, no dex bonus to AC lost), critical hit immunity, nonlethal immunity, energy immunity if nonlethal immune, and long term AC bonuses (Mage Armor, Unholy Aura, etc...). They do not take into account flat-footed due to losing initiative, massive damage rules, or the luckblade reroll. The luckblade reroll in particular is relevant for the CR 17+ encounters which should happen only 15% of the time as per the DMG.

Spoiler: Halfling Fighter Full Attack vs. MMI monsters

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CR	Monster	AC(modified)	HP	Damage/round
21	Titan	38	370	212
20	Pit Fiend	36	225	247
20	Tarrasque	30	858	200
20	Balor	41	290	236
20	Black Wyrm	43	459	224
20	Ancient Brass	42	387	201
18	Nightcrawler	37	212	157
16	Planetar	34	133	218
16	Nightwalker	34	178	161
16	Greater Stone Golem	27	271	149
16	Horned Devil	28	172	261
16	Archon Hound Hero	30	143	227
16	Old Black	36	287	257
16	Mature Adult Copper	34	264	223
15	Marut	34	112	184
13	Death Slaad	34	142	262
11	Dread Wraith	17	104	224
11	Air elemental	27	204	111

I also finished an analysis of Pit Fiend attacks in particular which might be of some interest.

Spoiler: Pit Fiend Attacks

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Spoiler: Full attack

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If the Pit Fiend full attacks it suffers a 50% miss chance due to the ring of blinking and the AC is high enough that Power Attack 2 maximizes damage at about 55 + poison & disease which take effects with a probability 0.2 which becomes 0.02 after taking into account the luckblade and the miss chance.

Spoiler: Full Disarm attack

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Each Disarm attack provokes an AOO which Combat Reflexes allows the Fighter to service. Using the bow as an improvised melee weapon plausibly (this requires DM interpretation) has an attack roll of:

+32=20(base)+2(strength)+5(Enhancement)-4(Improvised)+2(size)+2(competence)+2(feat)+1(hast e)+2(invisibility)

which hits against AC 36 and inflicts ~32-15 = 17 nonlethal damage 85% of the time.

Of the remaining 15%, the disarm will miss half the time (blinking) and then the opposed Disarm resistance roll is plausibly:
+46=20(base)+2(strength)+5(enhancement)-4(Improvised)+10(Locking Gauntlet)+2(size)+2(feat)+2(competence)+1(haste)+2 (invisibility)+4(Two-handed weapon)
vs +38=30(base)+12(Tiny to Large)-4(Light Weapon)
implying a 16.5% chance of successful disarm. Multiplying everything together, the odds of a successful disarm attempt is 1.2375%. This becomes lower for nonclaw attack so the odds of a successful disarm on a full attack is about 6% with a free helping of ~102 nonlethal damage to a Pit Fiend in the 94% failure case.

Spoiler: Full Sunder attack

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Each Sunder attempt provokes an AOO as for disarm, but Sunder can continue despite doing damage. A +5 bow has a hardness of 15, so the optimal level of power attack is actually +9 inflicting an expected ~21 damage after taking into account the miss chance. The bow has 51 hp so this is inadequate.

Spoiler: AOO

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The Pit Fiend has no AOOs for bow attacks because blinking attackers attack as if invisible.

Spoiler: Grapple/Constrict/Improved Grab

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Grapple/Constrict/Improved Grab autofails due to the Ring of Freedom.

Spoiler: Blasphemy

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Blasphemy has no effect since it's caster level 18 vs. 20HD.

Spoiler: Create Undead

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Create Undead is stated by the SRD as having a casting time of 1 hour, but the Monster Manual plausibly states that it has a casting time of 1 standard action for monsters. Regardless of the rules, the created undead have negligible effect. They generally can't observe the fighter due to very high Move Silently/Hide, if they do observe they have a negligible chance of hitting, and if they do hit the paralysis effects are negated by the Ring of Freedom. Note that the Mummy's Despair(Su) effect causes paralysis so it is also negated by the Ring of Freedom.

Spoiler: (Quickened) Fireball

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The fireball does ~9 expected damage due to Ring of Blinking and a 95% reflex save.

Spoiler: Greater Dispel Magic

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A targeted greater dispel magic on the bow potentially suppresses both the oil on the bow and the bow itself. Since the oil is caster level 20 and there is a 50% miss chance due to the ring of blinking, the probability of suppressing the oil is 0.2. The bow has a much lower caster level, so it is suppressed with probability 0.4.

An area dispel magic will almost certainly dispel one magic mouth but otherwise have no effect.

Spoiler: Mass Hold Monster

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Mass Hold Monster has no effect due to the Ring of Freedom.

Spoiler: Invisibility,Persistent Image

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Invisibility and Persistent Image can both be countered by the Gem of Seeing. Judicious use of the Gem of Seeing is important because we only have 300 rounds/day. Using the Gem when viewing a scene for the first time, whenever anything appears, and during rounds of combat sounds about right. Note that the Gem of Seeing is much more useful than True Seeing since it supports discontinuous use---the only more powerful effect is the always-on True Seeing which some monsters have access to.

Spoiler: Power Word Stun

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Power Word Stun has no effect because the Fighter has more than 150 hit points.

Spoiler: Unholy Aura

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Unholy Aura increases AC by 4, but there is no blinding effect due to the Fighter being True Neutral.

Spoiler: Meteor Swarm

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This is a 1/day ability. Meteor Swarm is double nerfed by Blink since it is both targeted and an area effect. Expected bludgeoning damage is 8*3.5/2=14, and the expected damage from hitting fire is 12*3.5/2=21. For missing fire only 12*3.5/2/2=10.5. Altogether, this is just 45.5 damage.

Spoiler: Wish

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This is a 1/year ability, but it could be used to replicate Antimagic Field or Control Winds, both of which significantly nerf the Fighter. Against Control Winds, the best attack mode of the fighter is an improvised attack with the bow as a melee weapon doing only ~102 nonlethal damage. Against AMF attacks do only ~70 nonlethal damage and many of the Pit Fiends physical attacks become more potent.

Spoiler: Summon Devil

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Summon Devil grants access to Dimensional Anchor (which nerfs Blink if it hits) and Wall of Ice (which provides battlefield control) via Bone Devil. Summoning an Erinyes grants access to a weak charm monster (2.5% chance of success), and True Seeing. Other abilities appear unremarkable.

Spoiler: Fear Aura

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The Fear Aura has a .3 probability (=.09 with a luckblade reroll) of affecting as a fear spell which institutes panic with a save for shaken. The probability of panic is .09 (or .0027 with a luckblade reroll).

Of all these effects, Wish[Antimagic Field] seems the most detrimental since it shuts down attacks enough to buy another round where a Charge/Tail Slap/Improved Grab/Constrict proves nearly irresistable. Amongst at-will abilities, a targeted Greater Dispel Magic on the bow is potent although unlikely to succeed.

[Eldariel]

That would move the damage from almost-always-works to not-quite-enough. Under this houserule(*) it would be better to drop an elemental damage (plausibly: fire) and invest in bane[evil outsider] resulting in somewhat-more-but-less-general damage.

(*) Yes, I'd emphasize that this is a houserule in the context of Beheld's combination of intransigence and inability to cite a rule.

I'd argue that it's at least a very reasonable ruling - converting elementals into non-descript nonlethal damage feels odd to say the least. Overall, perhaps my biggest worry about this Fighter is the overreliance on the weapon and its enhancements; losing it would basically make the character useless until acquiring a new one (far as campaign is concerned, effects like Disjunction do exist and item loss is a very real issue).

The problem with outsourced True Seeing is that it can easily imply a need to cast True Seeing as your first action in combat. That first action is a remarkably precious resource. The only obviously better approach that I know is via Rod[Extend] Shapechange[Balor] or some such.

Depends on what you're doing; if you're just summoning things or attacking in AOE or using True Striked whatever, you only need to know the square and it's enough to have that communicated to you. If you want to use targeted spells, which can of course be very useful with stuff like Chained GDM, that requires personal vision of some sort, as does ignoring some illusions. Yeah, 9th level spells do 9th level spell things.

Yeah, agreed. A Ranger ends up with significantly better stealth/detection. A Barbarian is significantly worse since the lack of feats bites hard.

Fair. Yeah, the extra skill points don't really amount to much.

Paralysis is explicitly enumerated in FoM, so there should not be a rules dispute? Any magic producing a paralysis effect should be negated.

Ah, fair. I was thinking of stunned for some reason.

1. The Sleight of Hand DC is technically opposed by Spot (eh?) so the DC is 29-48, enough to zero out the chance for a Mummy noticing something. There is a chance the Pit Fiend will notice, but odds are long since distance penalties and LOS constraints apply. Even if we houserule to an opposed Listen check (which certainly seems more reasonable), the odds of early detection remain low.
2. Shunting from wall-walking only happens when the wall if 5' thick or more so it should be quite rare.
3. True Seeing has a range of 120' while Create Undead has a range of 90', hence the Pit Fiend must at least sometimes be within visual range under flying-creating-mummies-and-illusions tactics.
4. I agree the fighter might start killing off the mummies if scouting reveals nothing else. However True Seeing has a range of 120', so that's a minimum +12 penalty to stealth if the Pit Fiend wants to stay out of range. This is relevant if mummies start dying off since the Fighter would snipe them using either total cover or Hide 42 taking into account lack of invisibility, the -20 penalty from sniping, and the +12 from range. In this situation, the Pit Fiend typically becomes aware the Fighter is around (mummies die), but not where the Fighter is. That's a reasonable argument against the Pit Fiend being surprised but that's ok in the Pit Fiend killing plan (win initiative, full attack).

This is all fair. Strange that Sleight of Hand would have a use "speak quietly" but whatever; perhaps you use handsignals to somehow mimic the vocal activation or something? Sign language?

I finished an analysis of full attack damage vs. various creatures for the Halfling below. These are generated by a simulator using 10^6 montecarlo full attacks. They take into account Silver(-1 damage), Bane(+2+2d6 damage, +2 to hit), Alignment & DR (assuming optimal arrow choice), regeneration (damage-regen), True Seeing or See Invisibility (-2 to hit, no dex bonus to AC lost), critical hit immunity, nonlethal immunity, energy immunity if nonlethal immune, and long term AC bonuses (Mage Armor, Unholy Aura, etc...). They do not take into account flat-footed due to losing initiative, massive damage rules, or the luckblade reroll. The luckblade reroll in particular is relevant for the CR 17+ encounters which should happen only 15% of the time as per the DMG.

Spoiler: Halfling Fighter Full Attack vs. MMI monsters

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CR	Monster	AC(modified)	HP	Damage/round
21	Titan	38	370	212
20	Pit Fiend	36	225	247
20	Tarrasque	30	858	200
20	Balor	41	290	236
20	Black Wyrm	43	459	224
20	Ancient Brass	42	387	201
18	Nightcrawler	37	212	157
16	Planetar	34	133	218
16	Nightwalker	34	178	161
16	Greater Stone Golem	27	271	149
16	Horned Devil	28	172	261
16	Archon Hound Hero	30	143	227
16	Old Black	36	287	257
16	Mature Adult Copper	34	264	223
15	Marut	34	112	184
13	Death Slaad	34	142	262
11	Dread Wraith	17	104	224
11	Air elemental	27	204	111

I also finished an analysis of Pit Fiend attacks in particular which might be of some interest.

Spoiler: Pit Fiend Attacks

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Spoiler: Full attack

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If the Pit Fiend full attacks it suffers a 50% miss chance due to the ring of blinking and the AC is high enough that Power Attack 2 maximizes damage at about 55 + poison & disease which take effects with a probability 0.2 which becomes 0.02 after taking into account the luckblade and the miss chance.

Spoiler: Full Disarm attack

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Each Disarm attack provokes an AOO which Combat Reflexes allows the Fighter to service. Using the bow as an improvised melee weapon plausibly (this requires DM interpretation) has an attack roll of:

+32=20(base)+2(strength)+5(Enhancement)-4(Improvised)+2(size)+2(competence)+2(feat)+1(hast e)+2(invisibility)

which hits against AC 36 and inflicts ~32-15 = 17 nonlethal damage 85% of the time.

Of the remaining 15%, the disarm will miss half the time (blinking) and then the opposed Disarm resistance roll is plausibly:
+46=20(base)+2(strength)+5(enhancement)-4(Improvised)+10(Locking Gauntlet)+2(size)+2(feat)+2(competence)+1(haste)+2 (invisibility)+4(Two-handed weapon)
vs +38=30(base)+12(Tiny to Large)-4(Light Weapon)
implying a 16.5% chance of successful disarm. Multiplying everything together, the odds of a successful disarm attempt is 1.2375%. This becomes lower for nonclaw attack so the odds of a successful disarm on a full attack is about 6% with a free helping of ~102 nonlethal damage to a Pit Fiend in the 94% failure case.

Spoiler: Full Sunder attack

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Each Sunder attempt provokes an AOO as for disarm, but Sunder can continue despite doing damage. A +5 bow has a hardness of 15, so the optimal level of power attack is actually +9 inflicting an expected ~21 damage after taking into account the miss chance. The bow has 51 hp so this is inadequate.

Spoiler: AOO

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The Pit Fiend has no AOOs for bow attacks because blinking attackers attack as if invisible.

Spoiler: Grapple/Constrict/Improved Grab

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Grapple/Constrict/Improved Grab autofails due to the Ring of Freedom.

Spoiler: Blasphemy

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Blasphemy has no effect since it's caster level 18 vs. 20HD.

Spoiler: Create Undead

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Create Undead is stated by the SRD as having a casting time of 1 hour, but the Monster Manual plausibly states that it has a casting time of 1 standard action for monsters. Regardless of the rules, the created undead have negligible effect. They generally can't observe the fighter due to very high Move Silently/Hide, if they do observe they have a negligible chance of hitting, and if they do hit the paralysis effects are negated by the Ring of Freedom. Note that the Mummy's Despair(Su) effect causes paralysis so it is also negated by the Ring of Freedom.

Spoiler: (Quickened) Fireball

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The fireball does ~9 expected damage due to Ring of Blinking and a 95% reflex save.

Spoiler: Greater Dispel Magic

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A targeted greater dispel magic on the bow potentially suppresses both the oil on the bow and the bow itself. Since the oil is caster level 20 and there is a 50% miss chance due to the ring of blinking, the probability of suppressing the oil is 0.2. The bow has a much lower caster level, so it is suppressed with probability 0.4.

An area dispel magic will almost certainly dispel one magic mouth but otherwise have no effect.

Spoiler: Mass Hold Monster

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Mass Hold Monster has no effect due to the Ring of Freedom.

Spoiler: Invisibility,Persistent Image

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Invisibility and Persistent Image can both be countered by the Gem of Seeing. Judicious use of the Gem of Seeing is important because we only have 300 rounds/day. Using the Gem when viewing a scene for the first time, whenever anything appears, and during rounds of combat sounds about right. Note that the Gem of Seeing is much more useful than True Seeing since it supports discontinuous use---the only more powerful effect is the always-on True Seeing which some monsters have access to.

Spoiler: Power Word Stun

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Power Word Stun has no effect because the Fighter has more than 150 hit points.

Spoiler: Unholy Aura

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Unholy Aura increases AC by 4, but there is no blinding effect due to the Fighter being True Neutral.

Spoiler: Meteor Swarm

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This is a 1/day ability. Meteor Swarm is double nerfed by Blink since it is both targeted and an area effect. Expected bludgeoning damage is 8*3.5/2=14, and the expected damage from hitting fire is 12*3.5/2=21. For missing fire only 12*3.5/2/2=10.5. Altogether, this is just 45.5 damage.

Spoiler: Wish

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This is a 1/year ability, but it could be used to replicate Antimagic Field or Control Winds, both of which significantly nerf the Fighter. Against Control Winds, the best attack mode of the fighter is an improvised attack with the bow as a melee weapon doing only ~102 nonlethal damage. Against AMF attacks do only ~70 nonlethal damage and many of the Pit Fiends physical attacks become more potent.

Spoiler: Summon Devil

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Summon Devil grants access to Dimensional Anchor (which nerfs Blink if it hits) and Wall of Ice (which provides battlefield control) via Bone Devil. Summoning an Erinyes grants access to a weak charm monster (2.5% chance of success), and True Seeing. Other abilities appear unremarkable.

Spoiler: Fear Aura

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The Fear Aura has a .3 probability (=.09 with a luckblade reroll) of affecting as a fear spell which institutes panic with a save for shaken. The probability of panic is .09 (or .0027 with a luckblade reroll).

Of all these effects, Wish[Antimagic Field] seems the most detrimental since it shuts down attacks enough to buy another round where a Charge/Tail Slap/Improved Grab/Constrict proves nearly irresistable. Amongst at-will abilities, a targeted Greater Dispel Magic on the bow is potent although unlikely to succeed.

Interesting data. Is there no better use for Wish than AMF or Control Winds? I'll have to look into it in more detail when I have time.

[Anthrowhale]

I'd argue that it's at least a very reasonable ruling - converting elementals into non-descript nonlethal damage feels odd to say the least.

There are many odd things in DnD. This one happens to be RAW and favors a relatively underpowered approach (damage-via-weapons). In comparison to Chain-gating Titans, Planar binding, Wish loops, Miracle[Contact other Plane], Astral Projection, etc... this actually seems quite reasonable. (None of that list is theoretical---it's all been advanced in this thread.)

Overall, perhaps my biggest worry about this Fighter is the overreliance on the weapon and its enhancements; losing it would basically make the character useless until acquiring a new one (far as campaign is concerned, effects like Disjunction do exist and item loss is a very real issue).

It is a reasonable concern although I think some fraction of campaigns avoid item disjunction because it makes players cranky and their is at least a reasonable chance of making the Will save.

Interesting data. Is there no better use for Wish than AMF or Control Winds? I'll have to look into it in more detail when I have time.

Not that I've been able to think of.

Another side note here. I've been trying to figure out what a core wizard could do instead in direct combat.

I haven't been able to find any way for a wizard to generate sufficient damage in core to take a Pit Fiend down in a single round (best known: Rod[Maximize] Polar Ray + Rod[Quicken] Polar Ray).

A wizard using crowd control (i.e. Time Stop, Dimensional Lock, Forcecage) still needs some mechanism for dealing damage to elements of the controlled crowd.

A summons based wizard falls deep into adjudication (w.r.t. habitual planar binding/gate revenge mechanics) or is ineffective via normal summons.

A wizard using a save-or-die does appear viable. The maximum Int is probably 20(elf)+5(inherent)+6(enhance)+5(levels)+2(age)=38 so the maximum save DC is about 10+9(spell level)+14(Int)+2(Spell Focus)=DC 35. Taking into account Greater Spell Penetration (+4), Robe of the Archmagi(+2), and Ioun Stone(+1) you reach effective caster level 27 w.r.t. spell resistance. A dexterity of 27 (Shapechange[Pit Fiend])+5(inherent)+6(enhance)=38 provides an initiative bonus of 14+4(feat)+1(ioun stone)+1(luckstone)=20. Altogether the odds of winning initiative and getting off a save-or-die against the Pit Fiend is .835*.75*.8=.501 ... just barely more than even. Adding in two luckblades for the rolls you control gets this up to 66% chance which is comparable to the Fighter's 68%. Note however that only 213K is left for all other items, half what the Fighter spends.

[Beheld]

Strange that Sleight of Hand would have a use "speak quietly" but whatever;

It doesn't, he just made that up.

[Anthrowhale]

Credits: Many of the ideas incorporated here originated with Lans, Ivanhoe, or Florian.

I've been stewing on a second Archer-based Fighter, but it's different enough that it's a separate build. The key otherwise-unused trick is Polymorph Any Object. PaO modifies Polymorph but it's unclear exactly which constraints are nullified. The conservative view is that all constraints not explicitly disallowed by wording remain active. In particular: the Hit dice of the form must be 15 or less and no new allowed types exist. I'm also avoiding the two-castings trick as it's unclear exactly how PaO self-stacks.

There seems to be only one form with a high dexterity, <15HD, and clear ability to wield weapons. Aside from the obvious Strength/Dexterity/Constitution/Intelligence/Natural Armor/Flight, the types and subtypes have value (and a few drawbacks). Outsider means the form is hard to get but there is no need to eat or sleep. [Evil] means immunity to Blasphemy, bypassing good outsider damage resistance, and a level penalty wielding holy items which sucks against the Pit Fiend. [Lawful] provides immunity to Dictum and bypasses the damage resistance of chaotic outsiders. The Fiendish Codex later decides that the Cornugon is a [Baatezu] which grants immunity to Fire & Poison.

For PAO to work, the base race must be outsider. We'll choose Tiefling which comes with a painful LA+1. Using a caster level 31 hired wizard (remember: Red Wizard is core) the PAO will only be dispelled by Disjunction. Whether or not the Tiefling's first level is replaced by Fighter 1 is unclear from the rules. I'll assume "yes" in keeping with the pure fighter discussion. (If the Outsider HD is kept, that's of course better.) I'm also assuming that skill points are determined by intrinsic intelligence rather than PAO intelligence as that seems saner. The duration is permanent (same kingdom, related, same or lower intelligence). Related applies in the literal sense as the Tiefling is descended from a Fiend.

Note that PaO comes online as a trick from ECL 3, very early in the game so although this is an ECL 20 build, it's relevant at much earlier levels. In such a level progression, it would be more natural to start as a melee bruiser while gradually picking up the feats and skills necessary to be an effective scout/archer.

Spoiler: Abilities and Feats

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Strength 37 = 831+6(enhancement)
Dexterity 32 = 8+2(race) 25 +1 inherent +6 enhancement
Constitution 29 = 1625 + 4 enhancement
Intelligence 18 = 14+2(race)14 + 4 enhancement
Wisdom 28 = 18+4(level)+6(enhancement)
Charisma 6 = 8-2(race)

Fighter Bonus Feats:
1. Improved Initiative
2. Point Blank Shot
4. Rapid Shot
6. Manyshot
8. Precise Shot
10. Improved Critical (Longbow)
12. Weapon Focus(Longbow)
14. Weapon Specialization(Longbow)
16. Greater Weapon Focus(Longbow)
18. Greater Weapon Specialization(Longbow)

Feats:
1. Iron Will
3. Skill Focus(Sleight of Hand)
6. Stealthy
9. Skill Focus(Spellcraft)
12. Combat Reflexes
15. Skill Focus(Move Silently)
18. Skill Focus(Spot)

Spoiler: spending 760K gp

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Permanent items.

Neck: Necklace of Adaptation+Hand of Glory, Constitution+4, Wisdom+6, Natural Armor+2: 81K //Necklace of adaptation+outsider means no breathing, eating, or sleeping constraints. Hand of Glory for extra ring + See Invisibility
Head: Hat of Disguise: 1.8K //This seems pretty critical for social interactions. True Seeing reveals a Tiefling.
Arms: Bracers of Armor+4+Greater Silent Moves+Greater Shadow+Greater Bracers of Archery: 121K
Shoulders: Cloak of Resistance+5: 25K
Waist: Monk's Belt+Strength+6: 48K
Feat: Boots of Speed: 12K
Eyes: Eyes of Eagle: 2.5K
Hands: Gloves of Dexterity+6 + Locking gauntlet: 36.008K //Probably disables claw attacks
Body: Nothing
Torso: Nothing
Ring 1: Freedom of Movement+Deflect+2: 48K //Shuts down nasty effects.
Ring 2: Invisibility: 20K //Allows Hide anywhere with +20 to Hide.
Ring 3: Blinking: 27K //Attacks are always against flat-footed AC with +2 to hit. Able to walk through walls.
Weapon: Composite (+13) Longow+1+Seeking+Flame+Frost+Shock+Merciful: 73.7K //We can craft a composite+13 bow ourselves!
Backup Bow: Composite(+13) Longbow: 1.7K //Craft[Bowmaking] allows us to actually make this.
Slotless: Masterwork tools of all skills 0.3K
Slotless: Luckblade (0 Wishes): 22.5K //primarily for the luck, but also a potent weapon.
Slotless: Handy Haversack: 2K
Slotless: Tower Shield: 0.03 //backup in case we want total cover.
Slotless: Manual Dexterity+1: 27.5K
Slotless: Dark Blue Ioun Stone: 10K //Grants Alertness
Slotless: Dusty Rose Ioun Ston: 5K //AC+1(insight)
Slotless: Pale Green Ioun Stone: Skill/ability/save/attack+1(competence): 30K
Slotless: Scroll Permanency, 1K exp @ caster level 31: 8.875K
Slotless: Scroll Permanency, 1K exp @ caster level 21: 7.625K

Expendables. The number of expendables for a one-shot is 1/5th rounded down.

Arrows: 200 Cold Iron: 0.02K
Arrows: 90 Silver: 0.185K
Arrows: 30 Adamantine: 1.802K
Arrows: 30 +1+Anarchic: 10.982K
Arrows: 30 +1+Holy+Silver: 11.042K
Arrows: 30 +1+Holy+Cold Iron: 12.182K
Arrows: 30 +1+Bane[Dragon]: 4.982K
Arrows: 30 +1+Bane[Magical Beast]: 4.982K
Arrows: 30 +1+Bane[Good Outsider]: 4.982K
Oil of Greater Magic Weapon+5 x5 15K
Dust of Disappearance x5: 17.5K
Protection from Evil Potion x5: 0.25K
Silence x5: 1.5K
Remove Fear x5: 1.5K
Resist Energy 30 potion x5: 5.5K
Good Hope Potion x5: 5.25K
Cure Light Wounds x40: 2K
Remove Disease x1: 0.75K
Remove Curse x5: 3.75K
Remove Blindness/Deafness x5: 3.75K
Lesser Restoration x5: 1.5K

Spellcasting Services

Polymorph Any Object[Cornugon] @caster level 31: 2.48K
Invisibility [Bow] @caster level 31: 0.62K
Magic Jar + See Invisibility @caster level 21: 0.87K

Again, I'm avoided effects with a cost of >3K given that these are "not generally available". Part of avoiding this is via buying the more expensive scrolls of permanency.

Total spent is 759.663K and all equipment + the rest of a party (about 2400lbs to spare) is a light load.

Spoiler: Statistics

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Armor Class: 59 = 10(base)+11(Dexterity)+4(Armor Enhance)-1(Size)+1(Dodge, boots of Speed)+2(Deflect)+10(Monk's belt)+2(Natural armor enhance)+19(Natural armor)+1(Insight)
+Invisibility +50% miss from Blink
Touch AC 34

Universal Save modifiers:+7 = +5(Resistance, cloak)+1(Luck, Luckblade)+1(competence, Ioun stone)
Fortitude: 27(Good Hope+2): 11(Fighter 19)+9(Constitution)+7(Universal)
Reflex: 25(Good Hope+2): 6(Fighter 19)+11(Dexterity)+1(Boots of Speed)+7(Universal)
Will: 24(P from E +Immune Charm&Control Compulsion, Good hope+2): 6(Fighter 19)+9(Wisdom) +7(Universal)+2(Feat)

Bow Attack: +42+no dex to AC (Good Hope+2): +19(Fighter 19)+11(Dexterity)+5(Enhance)+2(Competence, Bracers)+2(Feats)-1(Size)+1(Haste, Boots of Speed)+1(Point Blank Shot)+2(Blinking)
Improvised Bow Attack (melee): +39+no dex to AC(Good Hope+2): +19(Fighter 19)+13(Strength)+5(Enhance)+2(Competence, Bracers)+2(Feats)-1(Size)+1(Haste, Boots of Speed)-4(Improvised)+2(Blinking)
Bow+Arrow Damage: 52 (Good Hope+2): 7 (Large Arrows)+13(Strength)+5(Enhance+5)+7(Holy)+4(Feats) +3.5(Frost)+3.5(Flame)+3.5(Shock)+3.5(Merciful)+1( Greater Bracers of Archery)+1(Point Blank Shot)
Improvised Bow Damage: ~50: as bow+arrow except smaller dice, no Holy, no point blank shot

Attack Routine with Haste & Rapid Shot: +40/+40/+40/+35/+30/+25 Expected damage against AC 37: 285 (including criticals)
Attack Routine with Manyshot: +34 with 4 arrows. Expected damage against AC 37: 181 (Including criticals)

Universal Skill Modifiers: 3: 2(Master work tool, Circumstance)+1(luckstone)
Universal circumstantial: Good Hope+2
Hide: 55: +6(Fighter, cross class)+3(Universal)+11(Dexterity)-4(size)+15(Competence, armor)+2(Stealthy)+20(Invisibility)+2(Tiefling) // don't be found
Move Silently 45: +11(fighter, cross class)+3(Universal)+11(Dexterity)+15(Competence, armor)+2(Stealthy)+3(Skill Focus) //don't be found
Spot 33: +11(fighter, cross class)+3(Universal)+9(Wisdom)+5(Competence, Eyes of Eagle)+3(Skill Focus)+2(Alertness) // find bad guys
Sleight of Hand 29: +11(fighter,cross class)+3(Universal+11(Dexterity)+3(Skill Focus)+1(Ioun Stone) // Used to speak command words for rings quietly as per Rules Compendium rules for muttering spells.
Spellcraft 25: 11(fighter, cross class)+4(Int)+3(universal)+1(ioun stone)+3(skill focus)+2(synergy, k(arcana)) // Used to notice illusions
K(arcana) 13: 5(fighter, cross class)+4(int)+3(universal)+1(ioun stone)
Initiative: 17(Good Hope+2): +11(Dexterity)+4(Feat)+1(luckstone)+1(ioun stone)

Hit Points: 204: 109(Fighter 19)+95(Constitution)

Comparing with the Halfling Fighter we see that the attack bonus is 5 lower (-3 from size, -1 from dexterity, -1 from LA+1) which becomes -6 against a Pit Fiend due to the Holy arrows. Similarly, Hide is much lower which primarily reduces the ability to snipe. On the upside the baseline damage is ~9 higher, the build's broader selection of Bane arrows makes it significantly more dangerous, the AC is much higher, special attacks are quenched by size, flight synergizes with archery well and provides more mobility, and the high strength provides significant backup melee capability.

A number of unclarities in the rules had to be dealt with in making these builds, so this is some record of the rulings being used and their reasoning.

Spoiler: Rules Lawyering

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Spoiler: Which rules precisely?

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We are using the core rules (PHB, DMG, MMI), but generally assuming a restrictive DM. Hence most custom magic items are disallowed. The x1.5 cost for double use of an item slot is allowed as that is a mandatory rule. Intelligent items are not allowed as they have no designed construction rules.

Spoiler: What if the core rules are altered by other rules?

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There are several instances where other rules alter the core rules. We use the altered rules.

Spoiler: What is the price of routine bonuses?

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We go with the Magic Item Compendium rules which state that the x1.5 cost need not be paid.

Spoiler: How loud is a command word?

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This seems to never be stated anywhere, but one argument is that it should be as loud as verbal components in spells which should generally be in a "firm voice". The Rules Compendium offers a use of Sleight of Hand opposed by Spot (huh?) to cast verbal spells without notice. This is adopted here for retriggering the Ring of Blinking and the Ring of Invisibility to keep the effect constant.

Spoiler: How can you get expensive spells cast?

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Spellcasting services are generally not available if the price exceeds 3K gp. However, scrolls are not limited by price, and you can cheaply hire a spellcaster to cast a spell.

Spoiler: How do you See Invisibility on a fighter?

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Hire a wizard to cast magic jar on the fighter, then cast see invisibility, then cast permanency from a scroll.

Spoiler: How do you pierce illusions?

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Spellcraft includes an option to recognize any spell whose effect is seen. Hence, if an illusion is seen it can be recognized as an illusion spell which grants a will save to see through it.

Spoiler: How does Merciful interact with elemental damage?

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Merciful says "all damage it deals is nonlethal damage" so it converts elemental damage to nonlethal damage which bypasses elemental resistance/immunity since it is no longer elemental damage. This is based on the judgement that nonlethal damage is a primary and exclusive type of damage which seems to be consistent with the rules and most clearly spelled out in the nonlethal substitution feat.

Spoiler: Which forms can wield wepaons?

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Polymorph Any Object opens up many forms. We assume that only forms wielding weapons can wield weapons unless they are described as having hands or as being particularly nimble. The rationale here is that weapons are very cheap and clearly beneficial so any form capable of using them uses them by default.

Spoiler: How does damage from a bow used as an improvised melee weapon work?

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A bow can used as an improvised melee weapon. A bow with an enhancement bonus [qoute]...apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat.[/quote] Since the bow ussed as an improvised melee weapon does attack and damage rolls in combat the enhancement bonus applies.

In a worst-case situation, the Pit Fiend may be able to get attacks off, so it's important to have robust defenses.

Spoiler: Pit Fiend Attacks

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Spoiler: Full attack

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If the Pit Fiend full attacks it suffers a 50% miss chance due to the ring of blinking and the AC is high enough that the Pit Fiend only hits on a 20. Overall, the probability of hitting at all is 2.5%/attack. A Black Wyrm on the other hand can hit 10% of the time with a bite and 5% of the time with other attacks doing an expected 7 damage.

Spoiler: Full Disarm attack

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The Pit Fiend may not be able to disarm an invisible weapon. If it can, each Disarm attack provokes an AOO which Combat Reflexes allows the Fighter to service. Using the bow as an improvised melee weapon plausibly (this requires DM interpretation) has an attack roll of +39 as detailed above. This hits against AC 36 95% of the time and inflicts ~50-15 = 35 nonlethal damage.

In the 5% case the disarm will miss half the time (blinking) and then the opposed Disarm resistance roll is plausibly:
+53=19(base)+13(strength)+5(enhancement)-4(Improvised)+10(Locking Gauntlet)-1(size)+2(feat)+2(competence)+1(haste)+2 (invisibility)+4(Two-handed weapon)
vs +26=30(base)-4(Light Weapon)
so disarm is always resisted. More generally, disarm is typically well resisted even against a Black Wyrm (+46) almost all the time.

Spoiler: Full Sunder attack

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A pit fiend may not be able to sunder an invisible weapon. If it can, each Sunder attempt provokes an AOO as for disarm, but Sunder can continue despite doing damage. Half the time the disarm will miss (blinking) and in the other half of the time, the opposed attack roll is:
+43=19(base)+13(strength)+5(enhancement)-4(Improvised)-1(size)+2(feat)+2(competence)+1(haste)+2 (invisibility)+4(Two-handed weapon)
vs +26=30(base)-4(Light Weapon)
implying that sunder almost never hits. Furthermore, even when it hits a hardness of 15 reduces all damage significantly. A Black Wyrm (+46 on the sunder roll) actually has a reasonable chance of hitting although the AOO damage adds up quickly and overall expected damage is ~10 for the full attack.

Spoiler: AOO

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The Pit Fiend has no AOOs for bow attacks because blinking attackers attack as if invisible.

Spoiler: Grapple/Constrict/Improved Grab

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Grapple/Constrict/Improved Grab autofails due to the Ring of Freedom.

Spoiler: Blasphemy

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Blasphemy has no effect since it's caster level 18 vs. 19HD and because of the [evil] subtype.

Spoiler: Create Undead

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Create Undead is stated by the SRD as having a casting time of 1 hour, but the Monster Manual plausibly states that it has a casting time of 1 standard action for monsters. Regardless of the rules, the created undead have negligible effect. They generally can't observe the fighter due to very high Move Silently/Hide, if they do observe they have a negligible chance of hitting, and if they do hit the paralysis effects are negated by the Ring of Freedom. Note that the Mummy's Despair(Su) effect causes paralysis so it is also negated by the Ring of Freedom.

Spoiler: (Quickened) Fireball

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The [baatezu] subtype provides immunity to fire.

Spoiler: Greater Dispel Magic

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The pit fiend can't target an invisible bow.
An area dispel magic has no effect or a dispel targeted on the creature has no effect due to the high caster level of spells. Some items could be targeted, but none are individually crucial in combat.

Spoiler: Mass Hold Monster

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Mass Hold Monster has no effect due to the Ring of Freedom.

Spoiler: Invisibility

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Invisibility is countered by the Permanency See Invisiblity which operates at any range.

Spoiler: Persistent Image

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Relevant persistent images are visible so spellcraft says if you can:

...see or detect the effects of the spell.

then you can

Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect.

with a DC 25 spellcraft check. The spellcraft check is never failed and the save against an illusion once we know it's there happens 5% of the time so most persistent images are transparent and the remainder are a suspicious illusion spell effect.

Spoiler: Power Word Stun

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Power Word Stun has no effect because the Fighter has more than 150 hit points.

Spoiler: Unholy Aura

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Unholy Aura increases AC by 4, but there is no blinding effect due to the Fighter being True Neutral.

Spoiler: Meteor Swarm

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This is a 1/day ability. Meteor Swarm is double nerfed by Blink since it is both targeted and an area effect. Expected bludgeoning damage is 8*3.5/2=14, and immunity to fire comes from the [baatezu] subtype.

Spoiler: Wish

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This is a 1/year ability, but it could be used to replicate Antimagic Field which significantly nerfs the Fighter. Against AMF attacks do only ~130 nonlethal damage and many of the Pit Fiends physical attacks become more potent.

Spoiler: Summon Devil

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Summon Devil grants access to Dimensional Anchor (which nerfs Blink if it hits) and Wall of Ice (which provides battlefield control) via Bone Devil. Summoning an Erinyes grants access to a weak charm monster (2.5% chance of success), and True Seeing. Other abilities appear unremarkable.

Spoiler: Fear Aura

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The Fear Aura has a .1 probability (=.01 with a luckblade reroll) of affecting as a fear spell which institutes panic with a save for shaken. The probability of panic is .01 (or less with a luckblade reroll).

Of all these effects, Wish[Antimagic Field] seems the most detrimental since it shuts down attacks enough to buy another round where a Charge/Tail Slap/Improved Grab/Constrict proves nearly irresistable. Amongst at-will abilities, nothing has any significant effect.

Next we analyze attack damage vs. various creatures for the Tiefling below. These are generated by a simulator using 10^6 montecarlo full attacks.

Spoiler: Tiefling Fighter Full Attack vs. MMI monsters

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AC(mod) is the AC taking into account everything under "Active Effects". I'm assuming all combat is happening within 30' (for point blank shot and manyshot), but that's not super-necessary. The number before the slash is without a luckblade reroll while the number after is with a luckblade reroll.

The first columns of numbers is the baseline full attack in terms of expected damage, expected fraction of hit points accounted for, and probability of a knock-out. Use this for mid-combat damage.

The second set takes into account flat-footed opponents as is typical in the first round of combat. Use this for the "win initiative & full attack" situation.

The third set takes into account a surprise round (with multiattack). Use this for the "surprise, win initiative & full attack" situation.

CR

name

AC(mod)

damage

#killed

P(KO)

flat-f

flat KO

flat P(KO)

surp.

surp KO

surp P(KO)

Active Effects

22

Solar

44

203/238

0.9/1.1

0.32/0.53

268/299

1.2/1.3

0.71/0.88

382/451

1.7/2.0

0.87/0.94

See Invisibility, Magic Vestment, Heroes' Feast, Protective Aura, Bane arrows, Regenerate 15

21

Titan

40

231/258

0.6/0.7

0.02/0.04

231/258

0.6/0.7

0.02/0.04

371/426

1/1.2

0.56/0.8

Invisibility Purge, Neutral

20

Pit Fiend

37

278/306

1.2/1.4

0.81/0.94

278/306

1.2/1.4

0.81/0.94

463/506

2.1/2.2

0.98/1

Unholy Aura, Holy Arrows, Silver, Regenerate 5

20

Tarrasque

30

298/318

0.3/0.4

0/0

298/319

0.3/0.4

0/0

472/500

0.5/0.6

0/0

Bane arrows, Regenerate 40

20

Balor

42

244/274

0.8/0.9

0.21/0.36

301/328

1/1.1

0.56/0.78

440/507

1.5/1.7

0.84/0.95

True Seeing, Unholy Aura, Holy Arrows

20

Black Wyrm

41

264/296

0.6/0.6

0.01/0.02

265/296

0.6/0.6

0.01/0.02

420/489

0.9/1.1

0.44/0.69

Mage Armor, Bane arrows

18

Nightcrawler

38

211/234

1/1.1

0.57/0.78

211/234

1/1.1

0.57/0.78

361/402

1.7/1.9

0.93/0.99

Immune nonlethal, Immune Cold, Silver, Immune critical hits

16

Planetar

36

302/332

2/2.2

1/1

326/349

2.2/2.4

1/1

533/565

3.6/3.8

1/1

See Invisibility, Heroes' Feast, Protective Aura, Bane arrows, Regenerate 5

16

Nightwalker

35

227/247

1.3/1.4

0.87/0.97

235/254

1.3/1.4

0.92/0.99

403/428

2.2/2.4

1/1

Immune Nonlethal, Immune Cold, Silver, Immune critical hits

16

G. Stone Golem

27

237/247

0.9/0.9

0.01/0.01

237/247

0.9/0.9

0.01/0.01

394/412

1.5/1.5

0.95/1

Immune Nonlethal, Neutral, Immune critical hits

16

Horned Devil

29

316/334

1.8/1.9

1/1

316/334

1.8/1.9

1/1

511/538

3/3.1

1/1

Holy arrows, Silver, Regenerate 5

16

Hound A Hero

30

338/359

2.5/2.7

1/1

338/359

2.5/2.7

1/1

550/580

4.1/4.4

1/1

Magic Circle V. Evil, Bane arrows

16

Old Black

34

319/347

1.1/1.2

0.63/0.84

319/347

1.1/1.2

0.63/0.84

531/568

1.9/2

0.98/1

Mage Armor, Bane arrows

15

Marut

37

240/264

2.1/2.4

1/1

245/268

2.2/2.4

1/1

419/458

3.7/4.1

1/1

True Seeing, Anarchic arrows, Immune critical hits

13

Death Slaad

33

313/337

2.2/2.4

1/1

333/348

2.3/2.5

1/1

537/561

3.8/4

1/1

See Invisibility, Magic Circle V. Law, Holy arrows

11

E Air Elemental

18

200/208

1/1

0.52/0.67

199/208

1/1

0.52/0.67

332/348

1.6/1.7

0.98/1

Neutral, Immune critical hits, DR 10

11

Dread Wraith

18

276/289

2.7/2.8

1/1

276/289

2.7/2.8

1/1

461/482

4.4/4.6

1/1

Immune Nonlethal, Holy Arrows, Immune critical hits

Overall, this is a significantly more combat capable build that is somewhat worse at stealth and somewhat better at detection compared to the Halfling Archer. Looking through the monsters.

1. The Pit Fiend looks like the weakest CR 20 monster since it dies in a mid-combat full attack. Calculating the odds incorporating use of luckblade for either initiative or the full attack (but not both), the odds that the Pit Fiend loses initiative and is knocked out before it can attack is 75%.
2. "Win Initiative & Full Attack" works against a Solar (CR 22!), a Pit Fiend, a Balor, a Nightcrawler, and every CR16- creature except the Greater Stone Golem.
3. "Surprise, Win Initiative, & Full Attack" is good against everything except for the Tarrasque.
4. The one luckblade reroll hits pretty hard in probability. For example, it adds 21% to the chance of taking down an Old Black Dragon.

[Cosi]

Hey guys, I have a Fighter build too! It's a super fair build that uses an item called a "Candle of Invocation". What you do is you buy a Candle of Invocation that is aligned with Lawful Evil and use it to summon an Efreet, which you then get to give you a wish. Because that wish is a SLA, and SLAs don't require the payment of XP costs, you can get any item you want! An hey, since a Candle of Invocation only costs 8,400 GP you can buy one as soon as 5th level. So once you have your wish, you ask for a Ring of Infinite Wishes. Then you uses those wishes to get +Grahm's Number items for all your stats.

I think this build is pretty good, and it proves that the Fighter is effective.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Hey guys, I have a Fighter build too! It's a super fair build that uses an item called a "Candle of Invocation". What you do is you buy a Candle of Invocation that is aligned with Lawful Evil and use it to summon an Efreet, which you then get to give you a wish. Because that wish is a SLA, and SLAs don't require the payment of XP costs, you can get any item you want! An hey, since a Candle of Invocation only costs 8,400 GP you can buy one as soon as 5th level. So once you have your wish, you ask for a Ring of Infinite Wishes. Then you uses those wishes to get +Grahm's Number items for all your stats.

I think this build is pretty good, and it proves that the Fighter is effective.

Yep, wow. Case closed, you guys. Since the Fighter can get this item it's a viable, balanced class. Plus even if this weren't enough, you can use that Ring of Infinite Wishes to get an always-on item of True Seeing or another Planetar/Pit Fiend to fight the other one so take that CR20 enemies and wizards! 3.5 is balanced.

[Eldariel]

There are many odd things in DnD. This one happens to be RAW and favors a relatively underpowered approach (damage-via-weapons). In comparison to Chain-gating Titans, Planar binding, Wish loops, Miracle[Contact other Plane], Astral Projection, etc... this actually seems quite reasonable. (None of that list is theoretical---it's all been advanced in this thread.)

Be that as it may, harming a fire resistant/immune target with nonlethal fire damage feels like it is in the same ballpark as drown healing and Monks not being proficient with unarmed strikes in the senseless end of the rule pool. If I find damage dealers underpowered (which I agree they are, which is kind of the crux of the whole matter here), I'd rather buff them than force them to rely on potential rules dysfunctions.

It is a reasonable concern although I think some fraction of campaigns avoid item disjunction because it makes players cranky and their is at least a reasonable chance of making the Will save.

Aye. Still, as someone whose second character was a Dervish most of whose damage came from scimitars that were lost against a Babau due to some rules tomfoolery and failed Knowledge-checks, I've come to be extremely wary of characters too reliant on any given piece of equipment.

Another side note here. I've been trying to figure out what a core wizard could do instead in direct combat.

I haven't been able to find any way for a wizard to generate sufficient damage in core to take a Pit Fiend down in a single round (best known: Rod[Maximize] Polar Ray + Rod[Quicken] Polar Ray).

A wizard using crowd control (i.e. Time Stop, Dimensional Lock, Forcecage) still needs some mechanism for dealing damage to elements of the controlled crowd.

A summons based wizard falls deep into adjudication (w.r.t. habitual planar binding/gate revenge mechanics) or is ineffective via normal summons.

A wizard using a save-or-die does appear viable. The maximum Int is probably 20(elf)+5(inherent)+6(enhance)+5(levels)+2(age)=38 so the maximum save DC is about 10+9(spell level)+14(Int)+2(Spell Focus)=DC 35. Taking into account Greater Spell Penetration (+4), Robe of the Archmagi(+2), and Ioun Stone(+1) you reach effective caster level 27 w.r.t. spell resistance. A dexterity of 27 (Shapechange[Pit Fiend])+5(inherent)+6(enhance)=38 provides an initiative bonus of 14+4(feat)+1(ioun stone)+1(luckstone)=20. Altogether the odds of winning initiative and getting off a save-or-die against the Pit Fiend is .835*.75*.8=.501 ... just barely more than even. Adding in two luckblades for the rolls you control gets this up to 66% chance which is comparable to the Fighter's 68%. Note however that only 213K is left for all other items, half what the Fighter spends.

Couldn't you double up on the SoDs via. Quicken while also bombarding the target with some free action SoDs off your Shapechange or some such (changing form in the beginning of turn is a free action after all)? Cloudkill and Acid Fog are the typical options for DoT in cage but vs. the variety of elemental resistances a PF has you'd need Archmage's Mastery of Elements to wield Sonic or Electricity. Still, Forcecage + Dimensional Lock at least locks the target in place for a couple of days so it's unlikely to be of much threat and as dead devils reform, imprisoning it is probably more efficient than killing it anyways.

Simulacrums and Animate Dead produce underlings which are unlikely to affect any hierarchies. If you can find SoDs off some Simulacrums, you could plausibly add those to the mix, as well as perhaps some undead Hydra bruisers if you go for a damage based or a mixed approach.

The most notable advantage of a Wizard though is of course strategic; having access to Teleport, Time Stop, divinations, etc. This is such a layer of strategic flexibility that unless they literally bump into each other, the Wizard is unlikely to have much trouble.

[Anthrowhale]

Be that as it may, harming a fire resistant/immune target with nonlethal fire damage feels like it is in the same ballpark as drown healing and Monks not being proficient with unarmed strikes in the senseless end of the rule pool. If I find damage dealers underpowered (which I agree they are, which is kind of the crux of the whole matter here), I'd rather buff them than force them to rely on potential rules dysfunctions.

The fundamental problem with "nonlethal fire damage" is that it's an undefined concept in the game. If you want to use that concept, you need to invent rules about how things interact. Instead, the game defines "nonlethal damage" and "fire damage". These are each defined primary types that are used exclusively throughout the game. Declaring "nonlethal fire damage" is creating a new concept with new rules interactions---in other words a houserule.

You can check with the rules in several places to see that nonlethal damage is a primary type.

1. In the nonlethal damage section, Piercing/Bludgeoning/Slashing types are lost when using a lethal weapon to inflict nonlethal damage.
2. For Regeneration the conversion to nonlethal explicitly happens after "damage dealt".
3. For Sleep Arrows it gives the same effect as regeneration

   it instead bursts into magical energy that deals nonlethal damage (in the same amount as would be lethal damage)

4. For the Nonlethal Substitution feat conversion to nonlethal happens before damage is incurred.

   For example, a nonlethal fireball spell works in the usual way except it deals nonlethal damage instead of fire damage.

5. For the Merciful enchantment it just says

   all damage it deals is nonlethal damage.

   This is not particularly explicit about when the damage is converted to nonlethal (before or after damage resistance), but it is there in the tense. If the editors wanted it to apply post damage reduction they would have said "all damage dealt is nonlethal damage" mirroring the language of regeneration.

In all these cases (and others like environmental effects) nonlethal damage is used as a primary type. Furthermore, if you want to declare that "nonlethal fire damage" is a thing, you'll need to contradict the rules for Nonlethal Substitution. (And, if you really want to pick on Merciful, the weakest point in the argument is the moment of conversion based on tense. The nonlethal-as-primary-type-used-exclusively argument applies throughout all books as far as I know.)

Aye. Still, as someone whose second character was a Dervish most of whose damage came from scimitars that were lost against a Babau due to some rules tomfoolery and failed Knowledge-checks, I've come to be extremely wary of characters too reliant on any given piece of equipment.

I understand. I expect archery works out a little bit better this way because the monsters have to come to you rather than vice versa (and hence somewhat fewer do). The Tiefling archer is also somewhat less dependent in the sense that the bow is cheaper, the magical arrows more plentiful, and the strength bonus adds to the baseline damage.

Couldn't you double up on the SoDs via. Quicken while also bombarding the target with some free action SoDs off your Shapechange or some such (changing form in the beginning of turn is a free action after all)?

A metamagic rod of Quicken Spell would allow you to put 2 maximum strength SoDs which helps significantly, but the cost means you have only 43K left for everything beyond attacking---probably to low to be viable in practice. A Beholder could not cast somatic spells or use rods so at best the SoD spell would have a reduced effect. A Beholder also hard locks you into a Sorcerer in core or the save becomes meaningless.

Still, Forcecage + Dimensional Lock at least locks the target in place for a couple of days so it's unlikely to be of much threat and as dead devils reform, imprisoning it is probably more efficient than killing it anyways.

Greater Dispel Magic applies so a Pit Fiend is unlikely to remain locked in place for any significant time. The best that a core wizard can achieve (without prestige classes) seems to be caster level 21.

Simulacrums and Animate Dead produce underlings which are unlikely to affect any hierarchies. If you can find SoDs off some Simulacrums, you could plausibly add those to the mix, as well as perhaps some undead Hydra bruisers if you go for a damage based or a mixed approach.

I agree these are unlikely to result in retribution, but they have their own significant drawbacks.

1. Simulacrums are expensive (1K+xp) and fragile (24 hours, 100 gp per hit point for healing). They also have

   only one-half of the real creature's ... Hit Dice (and the appropriate ... special abilities for a creature of that ... HD)

   . Many DMs will make the wizard pay full cost for the Simulacrum and the only way to guarantee getting the special abilities you want is to find an advanced version where half HD = the normal version. Overall simulacrum cost&fragility makes them tricky to deploy effectively.
2. Animate Dead just doesn't create that impressive a form. A 20HD hydra would have 10 attacks at meh in terms of effect at 20th level. All special attacks are lost and base attack of +14 is just unimpressive.

The most notable advantage of a Wizard though is of course strategic; having access to Teleport, Time Stop, divinations, etc. This is such a layer of strategic flexibility that unless they literally bump into each other, the Wizard is unlikely to have much trouble.

Yeah, agreed. Wizards are great at strategic things.

[Beheld]

In the nonlethal damage section, Piercing/Bludgeoning/Slashing types are lost when using a lethal weapon to inflict nonlethal damage.

This is another bold faced lie, I can only assume he was hoping that people would read this without clicking the link.

[Psyren]

My favorite thing about this dumpster fire reaching 50 pages is that now I can simply avoid posting in the next one and I won't have to see my checkmark next to it.

"Archers 2: Balor Boogaloo?"

[Beheld]

My favorite thing about this dumpster fire reaching 50 pages is that now I can simply avoid posting in the next one and I won't have to see my checkmark next to it.

"Archers 2: Balor Boogaloo?"

It died down back on page 48/49, fell off the top page, no one posted for a week. I was really hoping it would be just stay dead.

[thelastorphan]

As someone who has played in more than a handful of 1-20 games and prefers mundanes I see little wrong in the logic of Anthrowhale other than being able to reasonably avoid the mummies. I do not beleive he could.

This scenario to me seems the most fair if we assume 1 of 2 things.

1) Any scenario in which a Pit Fiend has an established base of operations makes it reasonably likely the fighter in question COULD know there is a PF and an undead army in a village/battlefield/forest up ahead.

2) The PF is not in an established location and is traveling to some other goal maybe even just causing isolated mayhem. If so it likely has not raised an army and the encounter with the fighter is random. We have to assume the material plane since the fighter has no native way to get to hell. He is not hunting PFs. A PF is a smart creature but a devil and full of pride. It likely believes it is under no real threat when traveling through the material plane. If something threatens it suddenly and it survives it simply leaves and studies its target from a distance. Then kills them in their sleep.

If we go by these two assumptions. There are other possible ones but to me these seem the most likely or reasonable. Assumption one is disadvantageous for our fighter but not impossible. If he comes across the PF in a reasonable amount of time and kills the PF in one round he wins. If not he likely loses sometime in the future. Perhaps in the same day since the PF can conceal himself better at a distance and still be able to find the fighter when he is isolated. Assumption two comes down to an initiative roll and the PF surviving two full attacks. If it does it wins.

Bheld as made a lot of incorrect assumptions. Anthrowhale has made a few. But his build is general enough and strong enough I think it wins easily in any scenario where it ses the PF and gets surprise. And sometimes maybe even often wins anytime an iniative is rolled.

I do not think the 5x cost on consumables applies to ammuntion. Those words are never used interchangeably in the text.

Any system abuse is against the spirit of this sort of question it is just unhelpful to the discussion.

All in all this thread has been really interesting.

[Rhyltran]

It died down back on page 48/49, fell off the top page, no one posted for a week. I was really hoping it would be just stay dead.

At least we agree here. If we were allowed to post gifs I'd post one about letting it die.

[Anthrowhale]

I added another level of detail to the monte carlo outcome estimator for the Tiefling archer. These are generated by a simulator using 10^6 montecarlo full attacks.

AC(mod) is the AC taking into account everything under "Active Effects". I'm assuming all combat is happening within 30' (for point blank shot and manyshot), but that's not super-necessary. The number before the slash is without a luckblade reroll while the number after is with a luckblade reroll.

The first columns of numbers is the baseline full attack in terms of expected damage, expected fraction of hit points accounted for, and probability of a knock-out. Use this for mid-combat damage.

The second set takes into account flat-footed opponents as is typical in the first round of combat. Use this for the "win initiative & full attack" situation.

The third set takes into account a surprise round (with multiattack). Use this for the "surprise, win initiative & full attack" situation.

CR

name

AC(mod)

damage

#killed

P(KO)

flat-f

flat KO

flat P(KO)

surp.

surp KO

surp P(KO)

Active Effects

22

Solar

44

203/238

1/1.1

0.41/0.6

268/299

1.3/1.4

0.76/0.9

382/451

1.8/2.2

0.89/0.95

See Invisibility, Magic Vestment, Protective Aura, Bane arrows, Regenerate 15

21

Titan

40

231/258

0.6/0.7

0.02/0.04

231/258

0.6/0.7

0.02/0.04

371/426

1/1.2

0.56/0.8

Invisibility Purge, Neutral

20

Pit Fiend

37

278/306

1.2/1.4

0.81/0.94

278/306

1.2/1.4

0.81/0.94

463/506

2.1/2.2

0.98/1

Unholy Aura, Holy Arrows, Silver, Regenerate 5

20

Tarrasque

30

298/318

0.3/0.4

0/0

298/319

0.3/0.4

0/0

472/500

0.5/0.6

0/0

Bane arrows, Regenerate 40

20

Balor

42

244/274

0.8/0.9

0.21/0.36

301/328

1/1.1

0.56/0.78

440/507

1.5/1.7

0.84/0.95

True Seeing, Unholy Aura, Holy Arrows

20

Black Wyrm

41

264/296

0.6/0.6

0.01/0.02

265/296

0.6/0.6

0.01/0.02

420/489

0.9/1.1

0.44/0.69

Mage Armor, Bane arrows

18

Nightcrawler

38

211/234

1/1.1

0.57/0.78

211/234

1/1.1

0.57/0.78

361/402

1.7/1.9

0.93/0.99

Immune nonlethal, Immune Cold, Silver, Immune critical hits

16

Planetar

36

302/332

2.3/2.5

1/1

326/349

2.5/2.6

1/1

533/565

4/4.3

1/1

See Invisibility, Protective Aura, Bane arrows, Regenerate 5

16

Nightwalker

35

227/247

1.3/1.4

0.87/0.97

235/254

1.3/1.4

0.92/0.99

403/428

2.2/2.4

1/1

Immune Nonlethal, Immune Cold, Silver, Immune critical hits

16

G. Stone Golem

27

237/247

0.9/0.9

0.01/0.01

237/247

0.9/0.9

0.01/0.01

394/412

1.5/1.5

0.95/1

Immune Nonlethal, Neutral, Immune critical hits

16

Horned Devil

29

316/334

1.8/1.9

1/1

316/334

1.8/1.9

1/1

511/538

3/3.1

1/1

Holy arrows, Silver, Regenerate 5

16

Hound A Hero

30

338/359

2.5/2.7

1/1

338/359

2.5/2.7

1/1

550/580

4.1/4.4

1/1

Magic Circle V. Evil, Bane arrows

16

Old Black

34

319/347

1.1/1.2

0.63/0.84

319/347

1.1/1.2

0.63/0.84

531/568

1.9/2

0.98/1

Mage Armor, Bane arrows

15

Marut

37

240/264

2.1/2.4

1/1

245/268

2.2/2.4

1/1

419/458

3.7/4.1

1/1

True Seeing, Anarchic arrows, Immune critical hits

13

Death Slaad

33

313/337

2.2/2.4

1/1

333/348

2.3/2.5

1/1

537/561

3.8/4

1/1

See Invisibility, Magic Circle V. Law, Holy arrows

11

E Air Elemental

18

200/208

1/1

0.52/0.67

199/208

1/1

0.52/0.67

332/348

1.6/1.7

0.98/1

Neutral, Immune critical hits, DR 10

11

Dread Wraith

18

276/289

2.7/2.8

1/1

276/289

2.7/2.8

1/1

461/482

4.4/4.6

1/1

Immune Nonlethal, Holy Arrows, Immune critical hits

Looking through the monsters.

1. The Pit Fiend looks like the weakest CR 20 monster since it dies in a mid-combat full attack. The principle issue here is that the Pit Fiend loses it's Dexterity bonus.
2. "Win Initiative & Full Attack" works against a Solar (CR 22!), a Pit Fiend, a Balor, a Nightcrawler, and every CR16- creature except the Greater Stone Golem.
3. "Surprise, Win Initiative, & Full Attack" is good against everything except for the Tarrasque.
4. The one luckblade reroll hits pretty hard in probability. For example, it adds 21% to the chance of taking down an Old Black Dragon.

[Ivanhoe]

Anthrowhale, I am impressed by your calculations.

The main remaining issue is: will a level 20 archer fighter be able to get off a full attack vs the foes you listed, and also get them flat-footed? The fighter sceptics say no, we say yes.
Fighter sceptics:
1) a fighter cannot approach most of these creatures unnoticed (focus on pit fiend/planetar), since their vast magical powers will provide them with the means to find the fighter first before the other way round
2) the fighter only uses magic items or major buffs like polymorph any object , not his class abilities, so a commoner could do the same
3) foes such as pit fiend and planetar can use chain gating and infinite wish loops, thus making the fighter lose.

Fighter side:
1) A fighter can, with higher hide/move silently and spot, as well as higher initiative get both surprise and full round attacks on their opponents - more often than not.
2) the use of feats, BAB and hp has more effect than the magic items or PaO/heroism buffs. Plus, all characters are expected by the DMG to have wbl or unbalanced games are the result. Also, a fighter can use items or buffs much better than a commoner, e.g. a superb magic bow (with his higher BAB and feats to improve the performance).
3) Infinite combos even in core are just TO. This means that even though it is possible to start chain gating titans or get a ring of infinite wishes from gated efreet, it is only possible to know about this and pull this off, if the GM allows it. In this respect, it is in the area of a fighter playing becoming the emperor of the campaign world with all its associated power - which is TO by RAW, but dependent on the GM.

One thing I noticed: greater dispel magic will hit a blinking character, since it is an abjuration effect and this extends to the etheral plane. So the other methods vs targeted dispels will have to be used: rings of counterspelling, rod of absorbtion.

And to comment on Beheld's perception of a long-range combat between a fighter archer and a pit fiend trying to kit with fire balls:

Yes it will, that's the entire point. Whether it teleports and then puts up a new image, or teleports to one of the 180 existing persistent images blocks the line of sight for the fighter to the Pit Fiend, but not the Pit Fiend to the Fighter, since the Pit Fiend can see through it.

When a pit fiend teleports 1,000ft away from where it created 180 persistent images (a theoretical figure only possible if the pit fiend pretty much does not do anything else in his time but create images). There are no longer any images he can hide behind (it would be utter coincidence and could easily be sidestepped by the fighter).
Getting up images again, he would need to use standard actions and the fighter with maxed spellcraft would know what is going on (see also below).

Except that neither of your characters has this ability. True Seeing is limited to 120ft on a character that stands on the ground, anything 125ft in the air cannot be pierced by Anthro's character, even using his limited use metagaming.

As for your character............ NANI THE ****?

I refuse to believe that any human being in the universe can possibly be so stupid that they think that see invisibility allows them to pierce persistent image.

To clarify:
See inivisibilty is there vs the pit fiend's at will invisibility.
To see through the peristent images, the fighter with high spellcraft can simply look at the images, recognise it is an illusion spell, and then (having sufficent doubt it is real) can do a will save which he will likely make (persistent image DC 23 vs the fighter's +18+ will save).
He can see through the illusion, hitting the pit fiend normally.

[Beheld]

When a pit fiend teleports 1,000ft away from where it created 180 persistent images (a theoretical figure only possible if the pit fiend pretty much does not do anything else in his time but create images). There are no longer any images he can hide behind (it would be utter coincidence and could easily be sidestepped by the fighter).

1) It's not coincidence. Because the Pit Fiend set up these images in advance, knows where they are, and then teleports to a location he picks specifically to keep an image between him and the creature he is going to fireball.
2) The fight can't sidestep the images in any reasonable way, because he doesn't have the move speed, doesn't know where they are, and they are probably not a single image, but multiple images.

Getting up images again, he would need to use standard actions and the fighter with maxed spellcraft would know what is going on (see also below).

1) You can't identify a SLA as it is being cast with spellcraft. That's literally not a thing you can do.
2) Anthrowhales fighter has no ranks in spellcraft and operates entirely on metagaming.
3) See below for how your thing is complete nonsense.

To see through the peristent images, the fighter with high spellcraft can simply look at the images, recognise it is an illusion spell, and then (having sufficent doubt it is real) can do a will save which he will likely make (persistent image DC 23 vs the fighter's +18+ will save).

Nope. You absolutely cannot do that. Spellcraft is not an automatic no save illusion pierce (I know you talked about your will save, but if you could identify the spell by looking at it, you would automatically make the save).

That is absolutely nonsense. You cannot see an illusory wall either 10ft away or 1000ft away and just roll a spellcraft check to automatically know it is an illusion and automatically make the save.

The only even plausible spellcraft involved would be "Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry." But that doesn't work, because you can't detect the effects of the spell, since the effect of the spell is tricking you, and you can only detect the trick after you are no longer tricked.

[Anthrowhale]

It's easy enough to measure the power of a commoner with the same build. Basically, they take a -11 to hit and a -4 to damage per arrow as well as -6 to a fortitude save and a losing all the skill bonuses from feats.

Spoiler: Commoner 19 Tiefling vs MMI monsters

Show

CR

name

AC(mod)

damage

#KO

P(KO)

flat-f

flat KO

flat P(KO)

surp.

surp KO

surp P(KO)

Active Effects

22

Solar

44

42.7/57.7

0.2/0.3

0/0.01

94.7/122

0.5/0.6

0.03/0.07

113/133

0.5/0.6

0.09/0.19

See Invisibility, Magic Vestment, Protective Aura, Bane arrows, Regenerate 15

21

Titan

40

81.2/103

0.2/0.3

0/0

81.2/103

0.2/0.3

0/0

116/146

0.3/0.4

0/0

Invisibility Purge, Neutral

20

Pit Fiend

37

118/146

0.5/0.6

0.04/0.1

118/146

0.5/0.6

0.04/0.1

170/208

0.8/0.9

0.24/0.44

Unholy Aura, Holy Arrows, Silver, Regenerate 5

20

Tarrasque

30

162/178

0.2/0.2

0/0

162/178

0.2/0.2

0/0

221/242

0.3/0.3

0/0

Bane arrows, Regenerate 40

20

Balor

42

72.1/92.5

0.2/0.3

0/0

147/176

0.5/0.6

0.01/0.02

177/207

0.6/0.7

0.08/0.18

True Seeing, Unholy Aura, Holy Arrows

20

Black Wyrm

41

86.5/110

0.2/0.2

0/0

86.4/110

0.2/0.2

0/0

123/156

0.3/0.3

0/0

Mage Armor, Bane arrows

18

Nightcrawler

38

86.1/107

0.4/0.5

0/0

86/107

0.4/0.5

0/0

126/156

0.6/0.7

0.05/0.15

Immune nonlethal, Immune Cold, Silver, Immune critical hits

16

Planetar

36

137/168

1/1.3

0.58/0.78

182/205

1.4/1.5

0.88/0.97

242/280

1.8/2.1

0.95/0.98

See Invisibility, Protective Aura, Bane arrows, Regenerate 5

16

Nightwalker

35

110/132

0.6/0.7

0/0

126/145

0.7/0.8

0/0.01

178/209

1/1.2

0.52/0.8

Immune Nonlethal, Immune Cold, Silver, Immune critical hits

16

G. Stone Golem

27

141/149

0.5/0.5

0/0

141/149

0.5/0.5

0/0

212/223

0.8/0.8

0/0

Immune Nonlethal, Neutral, Immune critical hits

16

Horned Devil

29

186/201

1.1/1.2

0.7/0.86

186/201

1.1/1.2

0.7/0.86

276/294

1.6/1.7

0.98/1

Holy arrows, Silver, Regenerate 5

16

Hound A Hero

30

202/218

1.5/1.6

0.96/1

202/218

1.5/1.6

0.96/1

297/321

2.2/2.4

1/1

Magic Circle V. Evil, Bane arrows

16

Old Black

34

165/193

0.6/0.7

0.02/0.03

165/193

0.6/0.7

0.02/0.03

239/281

0.8/1

0.29/0.53

Mage Armor, Bane arrows

15

Marut

37

105/128

0.9/1.1

0.45/0.69

114/138

1/1.2

0.54/0.77

162/198

1.4/1.8

0.78/0.9

True Seeing, Anarchic arrows, Immune critical hits

13

Death Slaad

33

168/194

1.2/1.4

0.7/0.87

201/212

1.4/1.5

0.92/0.99

277/305

2/2.1

0.98/0.99

See Invisibility, Magic Circle V. Law, Holy srrows

11

E Air Elemental

18

118/123

0.6/0.6

0/0

118/123

0.6/0.6

0/0

177/185

0.9/0.9

0.03/0.03

Neutral, Immune critical hits, DR 10

11

Dread Wraith

18

169/177

1.6/1.7

0.99/1

169/177

1.6/1.7

0.99/1

254/265

2.4/2.6

1/1

Immune Nonlethal, Holy Arrows, Immune critical hits

Looking through, they clearly aren't a serious threat to the CR 17+ monsters and they have trouble handling several of the CR 16- monsters (Nightwalker, Old Black Dragon) so they are clearly subpar compared to guidelines in the DMG.

One thing I noticed: greater dispel magic will hit a blinking character, since it is an abjuration effect and this extends to the etheral plane.

Good point. Let me think about it.

I also finally figured out how to make core wizards dangerous. The Shapechange[Beholder] approach doesn't work because charisma enhancing items are absorbed resulting in a relatively low DC (30) for Finger of Death. Instead, you can be a Gray Elf Wizard and enhance the chance of a spell taking effect via Quickened Baleful Polymorph. Transmutation ends up being a good school to focus on for SODs anyways because Polymorph-any-object is a Fort(objects) spell implying it can take out Undead (who have terrible saves). It's important to have a backup strategy targeting Will which Dominate Monster provides, so if we consider a Gray Elf with Int 38 = 20+5(levels)+5(inherent)+6(enhance)+2(age) with:
(Greater) Spell Focus(Enchantment, Transmutation) that Shapechanges into a Balor (high dex + true seeing) and has the spells:
9. Quickened Baleful Polymorph
9. Heightened Polymorph Any Object
9. Dominate Monster
Working through the math, we can compare wizard to archer.

Spoiler: SoD Wizard vs Archer

Show

All numbers are conditioned on initiative being won (which it is in expectation, but the probability varies substantially). The number before the slash is without luckblades while the number after the slash is with luckblades.

	Archer P(KO)	Wizard P(KO)
Solar	.76/.9	.81/.90
Titan	.02/.04	.60/.70
Pit Fiend	.81/.94	.78/.87
Tarrasque	0/0	.58/.69
Balor	0.56/0.78	.85/.85
Black Wyrm	0.01/0.02	.64/.64
Nightcrawler	0.57/0.78	.81/.93
Planetar	1/1	.96/.98
Nightwalker	0.92/0.99	.90/.95
G. Stone Golem	0.01/0.01	0/0
Horned Devil	1/1	.99/.99
Hound Archon H	1/1	.76/.76
Old Black	0.63/0.84	.96/.96
Marut	1/1	.95/.95
Death Slaad	1/1	.99/.99
E Air Elemental	0.52/0.67	1/1
Dread Wraith	1/1	.48/.48

The archer is better against the Pit Fiend and many of the CR16- creatures while the wizard doe better (sometimes by a lot) against the rest of the CR 17+ creatures. One critical thing this table does not take into account is that the wizard here has only ~4 9th level spells free implying that if 2 spells are cast to take out a creature there is no way the wizard can handle 4 encounters/day. Using 9th level spells for CR 17+ creatures seems fine, but for CR16-, lower level effects with a lower chance of success are required.

One question confused me: What happens if you cast Maze on a target and then Dimension Lock the point where it disappeared?

[thelastorphan]

I wasn't convinced Anthrowhale was right until I started seeing all these numbers. Now I am sure he is correct.

Beheld you are on a sinking ship. Time to move on man.

That Maze vs Dimensional Lock question is hillarious.

[Ivanhoe]

Anthrowhale, this must be one of the most detailed (core) statistical comparisons of what high level fighters and now even a wizard can do.
The biggest surprise for me here is that a level 20 core wizard - barring the typical endless loop combos - will hardly have more impact in combat than a core fighter. That is simply amazing. I will have a closer look at your figures since I still can hardly believe that.
I did once have a suspicion that core material with all its unbalanced elements is still more balanced than when adding all crazy material out there. (I once was discussing it with eggynack the no. 1 druid expert whether a druid would be way more powerful with all expansion material or just with core rules than a fighter - at that time he sort of convinced me that a druid with just core material is way more imbalanced vs mundanes. Now I am not so sure any more). Well, interesting thread, that's for sure!

1) It's not coincidence. Because the Pit Fiend set up these images in advance, knows where they are, and then teleports to a location he picks specifically to keep an image between him and the creature he is going to fireball.
2) The fight can't sidestep the images in any reasonable way, because he doesn't have the move speed, doesn't know where they are, and they are probably not a single image, but multiple images.

So a pit fiend sets up what kind of persistent images in the air that provide total concealment (probably it wants to teleport to a flying position 1,000ft + away)? Possibly fogs or some such.
Could work.
However, then
1) the pit fiend then can no longer see Anthrowhale's invisible fighter since it is outside true seeing range as well. It could just vaguely hope to hit the fighter with fireballs in the area. Likely an impasse
and 2) the pit fiend would betray its position when casting fireballs, even from behind total concealment. That is enough, since Anthrowhale's archer has the seeking enchantment.

1) You can't identify a SLA as it is being cast with spellcraft. That's literally not a thing you can do.
2) Anthrowhales fighter has no ranks in spellcraft and operates entirely on metagaming.
3) See below for how your thing is complete nonsense.

Well - you are correct with that. I did not check the spellcraft skill description enough. SLA as it is cast cannot be recognised with spellcraft, true! (only its visible spell effects can, with a higher DC)
Antrhowhale's archer has different methods (see above) - the spellcraft idea was that of my Cyrano fighter, granted.

Nope. You absolutely cannot do that. Spellcraft is not an automatic no save illusion pierce (I know you talked about your will save, but if you could identify the spell by looking at it, you would automatically make the save).

That is absolutely nonsense. You cannot see an illusory wall either 10ft away or 1000ft away and just roll a spellcraft check to automatically know it is an illusion and automatically make the save.

The only even plausible spellcraft involved would be "Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry." But that doesn't work, because you can't detect the effects of the spell, since the effect of the spell is tricking you, and you can only detect the trick after you are no longer tricked.

Actually, here you are wrong from a RAW standpoint - but I'd concede that it could really make illusions too easy to see through - so it is not RAI?
Anyhow, the RAW you quoted is correct and that means: Once you see an illusion, you can identify the spell with spellcraft. Because the ability to see is the only requirement for the spellcraft skill to work here.
It is then a big question whether from the figment/illusion rules and its associated saves the identification of the persistent image effect is enough to automatically make the save ("A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw.") or whether rather the other line of the illusion save rules applies ("Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.")
Now, will a spellcraft check yield "proof" or is it "study carefully"?
I would say the latter (also, to make the RAW not too hard on illusionists or usefulness of illusions) and thus say: the fighter has to make a will save.

In either case, a fighter build with high spellcraft skill like my Cyrano fighter will have a good chance to neuter the pit fiend's strategy to create total comcealments out of his at will persistant images.

[Eldariel]

Anthro: If you want to be exact, you should count the probability of also rolling sufficient damage instead of taking averages. While your damage numbers are expected, they are not certain: damage distribution still affects the numbers a fair bit.

Though the more dice, the higher the probability of near average damage. Still, it's never 100% so calculating the distribution and checking the sufficiently high numbers for taking the target to 0, -1 and -10 would yield precise probabilities.


I also don't condone not having the monsters with casting buff. Naked stat blocks don't sound line realistic in-game constructs. Solar with Mage Armor (Miracle it or just Wish for some 25k gp mundane armor - I believe we can safely skip using Wish for magic Items though as with SLA Wishes that gets problematic due to lacking limits though) + Magic Vestment + Heroes' Feast + Spell Resistance + Resist Energies, etc. is a bit more realistic for instance.

[Anthrowhale]

Anthro: If you want to be exact, you should count the probability of also rolling sufficient damage instead of taking averages. While your damage numbers are expected, they are not certain: damage distribution still affects the numbers a fair bit.

Yep, agreed. That's what I'm doing. Here's the code (I'm old school, so it's c++).

Spoiler: code

Show

#include <math.h>
#include <iostream>

using namespace std;

struct creature {
string name;
int cr;
int ac;
int dex_ac;
int hp;
int dice;
bool bane;
bool critical;
bool silver;
int regeneration;
int dr;
int initiative;
int fort;
int will;
string active_effects;
};

int d(int v)
{ return ceil(drand48()*v); }

int tiny_bow(bool silver)
{
int base_damage = d(4);
if (silver && base_damage > 1)
base_damage-=1;
return base_damage;
}

int d6(int count)
{
int ret = 0;
for (int i = 0; i < count; i++)
ret += d(6);
return ret;
}

int large_bow(bool silver)
{
int base_damage = d6(2);
if (silver && base_damage > 1)
base_damage-=1;
return base_damage;
}

int base_damage(bool silver, bool bane)
{//13 strength, 5 enhance, 1 competence, 1 pbs, 4 specialization
int base = large_bow(silver)+13+5+1+1+4;

if (bane)
return base+2;
else
return base;
}

int damage(bool silver, int dice, bool bane) { return base_damage(silver, bane)+d6(dice); }

int crit_damage(bool silver, bool bane) { return base_damage(silver, bane)+base_damage(silver, bane);}

int d20() { return d(20); }

int attack(int bab, bool& reroll, int ac, bool silver, int dice, bool bane, bool critical, int subtract)
{
int roll = d20();
if (roll == 1 || bab+roll < ac)
{
if (reroll == false)
return 0;
else
{
reroll = false;
return attack(bab, reroll, ac, silver, dice, bane, critical, subtract);
}
}

int ret = damage(silver, dice, bane);
if (critical && roll >= 19)
{
int crit_roll = d20();
if (crit_roll+bab >= ac)
ret += crit_damage(silver, bane);
}
if (ret > subtract)
return ret-subtract;
else
return 0;
}

int full_attack(bool& reroll, int ac, bool silver, int dice, bool bane, bool critical, int subtract)
{
return attack(40,reroll, ac, silver, dice, bane, critical, subtract)
+attack(40,reroll, ac, silver, dice, bane, critical, subtract)
+attack(40,reroll, ac, silver, dice, bane, critical, subtract)
+attack(35,reroll, ac, silver, dice, bane, critical, subtract)
+attack(30,reroll, ac, silver, dice, bane, critical, subtract)
+attack(25,reroll, ac, silver, dice, bane, critical, subtract);
}

int full_attack(const creature& c, bool& reroll, bool flat_footed)
{

int damage;
if (flat_footed)
damage = full_attack(reroll,c.ac-c.dex_ac, c.silver, c.dice, c.bane, c.critical, c.dr);
else
damage = full_attack(reroll,c.ac, c.silver, c.dice, c.bane, c.critical, c.dr);
if (damage > c.regeneration)
return damage-c.regeneration;
else
return 0;
}

int multi_attack(const creature& c, bool& reroll, bool flat_footed, int bab)
{
int roll = d20();
if (roll == 1 || bab+roll < c.ac)
{
if (reroll == false)
return 0;
else
{
reroll = false;
return multi_attack(c, reroll, flat_footed, bab);
}
}

int ret = 0;
for (int i = 0; i <4; i++)
{
int temp = damage(c.silver, c.dice, c.bane);
if (i==0)
if (c.critical && roll >= 19)
{
int crit_roll = d20();
if (crit_roll+bab >= c.ac)
ret += crit_damage(c.silver, c.bane);
}
if (temp > c.dr)
ret += temp-c.dr;
else
ret += 0;
}
return ret-c.regeneration;
}

const int num_monsters = 17;

const creature monsters[num_monsters]=
{{"Solar ",22,44,5,209,6,true, true, false, 15,0,9,18,20,"See Invisibility, Magic Vestment, Protective Aura"},
{"Titan ",21,40,0,370,4,false,true,false,0,0,1,26,21,"Invi sibility Purge, Neutral"},
{"Pit Fiend",20,37,0,225,6,false,true,true,5,0,12,19,21, "Unholy Aura, Holy Arrows"},
{"Tarrasque",20,30,0,858,6,true,true,false,40,0,7, 38,20,""},
{"Balor ",20,42,7,290,6,false,true,false,0,0,11,22,19,"Tru e Seeing, Unholy Aura, Holy Arrows"},
{"Black Wyrm",20,41,0,459,6,true,true,false,0,0,4,26,23,"M age Armor"},
{"Nightcrawler",18,38,0,212,4,false,false,true,0,0 ,4,12,23, "Immune nonlethal, Immune Cold"},
{"Planetar",16,36,4,133, 6, true, true, false, 5, 0, 8,14,15,"See Invisibility, Protective Aura"},
{"Nightwalker",16,35,2,179,4,false,false,true,0,0, 6,11,19, "Immune Nonlethal, Immune Cold"},
{"G. Stone Golem",16,27,0,271,3,false,false,false,0,0,-2,14,14, "Immune Nonlethal, Neutral"},
{"Horned Devil",16,29,0,172,6,false,true,true,5,0,7,16,15, "Holy arrows"},
{"Hound A Hero",16,30,0,133, 6, true, true, false,0,0,4,18,13, "Magic Circle V. Evil"},
{"Old Black",16,34,0,287,6,true,true,false,0,0,4,19,16," Mage Armor"},
{"Marut ",15,37,1,112,5,false,false,false,0,0,1,7,8,"T rue Seeing, Anarchic arrows"},
{"Death Slaad",13,33,6,142,6, false,true,false,0,0,10,14,13, "See Invisibility, Magic Circle V. Law, Holy srrows"},
{"E Air Elemental",11,18,0,204,4,false,false,false,0,10,15 ,12,10, "Neutral"},
{"Dread Wraith",11,18,0,104,5,false,false,false,0,0,13,5,1 4, "Immune Nonlethal, Holy Arrows"}};

float round(float precision, float value)
{
value /= precision;
value = roundf(value);
value *= precision;
return value;
}

void print(float damage, float reroll_damage, float kills, float reroll_kills, int hp, int rounds, string separator)
{
damage /= rounds;
reroll_damage /= rounds;
kills /= rounds;
reroll_kills /= rounds;
cout << damage << "/" << reroll_damage << separator;
cout.precision(2);
cout.width(3);
cout << round(0.1,damage/hp) << "/" << round(0.1, reroll_damage/hp) << separator;
cout.precision(3);
cout.width(6);
cout << round(0.01,kills) << "/" << round(0.01,reroll_kills) << separator;
}

void preface_print(const creature& c, string s)
{
if (c.active_effects.length() > 0)
cout << ", ";
cout << s;
}

int main(int argc, char* argv[])
{
double rounds = 1000000;

/* string begin_line("");
string end_line("");
string separator("\t");*/
cout << "

"); string end_line("

" << endl;
}

I also don't condone not having the monsters with casting buff. Naked stat blocks don't sound line realistic in-game constructs. Solar with Mage Armor (Miracle it or just Wish for some 25k gp mundane armor - I believe we can safely skip using Wish for magic Items though as with SLA Wishes that gets problematic due to lacking limits though) + Magic Vestment + Heroes' Feast + Spell Resistance + Resist Energies, etc. is a bit more realistic for instance.

A solar is not proficient with armor and using it's daily miracle for Mage Armor seems unrealistic. I am fully taking into account Magic Vestment, Protective Aura, See Invisibility, and regeneration 15.
Resist Energy isn't listed or relevant (we are dealing nonlethal damage). I missed Heroe's feast---I'll need to add that in.

[Cosi]

Resist Energy isn't listed or relevant (we are dealing nonlethal damage).

I have not seen evidence this works the way you say it does. As far as I can tell, the section you cited doesn't say non-lethal damage overwrites other damage types.

[Eldariel]

Yep, agreed. That's what I'm doing. Here's the code (I'm old school, so it's c++).

Spoiler: code

Show

#include <math.h>
#include <iostream>

using namespace std;

struct creature {
string name;
int cr;
int ac;
int dex_ac;
int hp;
int dice;
bool bane;
bool critical;
bool silver;
int regeneration;
int dr;
int initiative;
int fort;
int will;
string active_effects;
};

int d(int v)
{ return ceil(drand48()*v); }

int tiny_bow(bool silver)
{
int base_damage = d(4);
if (silver && base_damage > 1)
base_damage-=1;
return base_damage;
}

int d6(int count)
{
int ret = 0;
for (int i = 0; i < count; i++)
ret += d(6);
return ret;
}

int large_bow(bool silver)
{
int base_damage = d6(2);
if (silver && base_damage > 1)
base_damage-=1;
return base_damage;
}

int base_damage(bool silver, bool bane)
{//13 strength, 5 enhance, 1 competence, 1 pbs, 4 specialization
int base = large_bow(silver)+13+5+1+1+4;

if (bane)
return base+2;
else
return base;
}

int damage(bool silver, int dice, bool bane) { return base_damage(silver, bane)+d6(dice); }

int crit_damage(bool silver, bool bane) { return base_damage(silver, bane)+base_damage(silver, bane);}

int d20() { return d(20); }

int attack(int bab, bool& reroll, int ac, bool silver, int dice, bool bane, bool critical, int subtract)
{
int roll = d20();
if (roll == 1 || bab+roll < ac)
{
if (reroll == false)
return 0;
else
{
reroll = false;
return attack(bab, reroll, ac, silver, dice, bane, critical, subtract);
}
}

int ret = damage(silver, dice, bane);
if (critical && roll >= 19)
{
int crit_roll = d20();
if (crit_roll+bab >= ac)
ret += crit_damage(silver, bane);
}
if (ret > subtract)
return ret-subtract;
else
return 0;
}

int full_attack(bool& reroll, int ac, bool silver, int dice, bool bane, bool critical, int subtract)
{
return attack(40,reroll, ac, silver, dice, bane, critical, subtract)
+attack(40,reroll, ac, silver, dice, bane, critical, subtract)
+attack(40,reroll, ac, silver, dice, bane, critical, subtract)
+attack(35,reroll, ac, silver, dice, bane, critical, subtract)
+attack(30,reroll, ac, silver, dice, bane, critical, subtract)
+attack(25,reroll, ac, silver, dice, bane, critical, subtract);
}

int full_attack(const creature& c, bool& reroll, bool flat_footed)
{

int damage;
if (flat_footed)
damage = full_attack(reroll,c.ac-c.dex_ac, c.silver, c.dice, c.bane, c.critical, c.dr);
else
damage = full_attack(reroll,c.ac, c.silver, c.dice, c.bane, c.critical, c.dr);
if (damage > c.regeneration)
return damage-c.regeneration;
else
return 0;
}

int multi_attack(const creature& c, bool& reroll, bool flat_footed, int bab)
{
int roll = d20();
if (roll == 1 || bab+roll < c.ac)
{
if (reroll == false)
return 0;
else
{
reroll = false;
return multi_attack(c, reroll, flat_footed, bab);
}
}

int ret = 0;
for (int i = 0; i <4; i++)
{
int temp = damage(c.silver, c.dice, c.bane);
if (i==0)
if (c.critical && roll >= 19)
{
int crit_roll = d20();
if (crit_roll+bab >= c.ac)
ret += crit_damage(c.silver, c.bane);
}
if (temp > c.dr)
ret += temp-c.dr;
else
ret += 0;
}
return ret-c.regeneration;
}

const int num_monsters = 17;

const creature monsters[num_monsters]=
{{"Solar ",22,44,5,209,6,true, true, false, 15,0,9,18,20,"See Invisibility, Magic Vestment, Protective Aura"},
{"Titan ",21,40,0,370,4,false,true,false,0,0,1,26,21,"Invi sibility Purge, Neutral"},
{"Pit Fiend",20,37,0,225,6,false,true,true,5,0,12,19,21, "Unholy Aura, Holy Arrows"},
{"Tarrasque",20,30,0,858,6,true,true,false,40,0,7, 38,20,""},
{"Balor ",20,42,7,290,6,false,true,false,0,0,11,22,19,"Tru e Seeing, Unholy Aura, Holy Arrows"},
{"Black Wyrm",20,41,0,459,6,true,true,false,0,0,4,26,23,"M age Armor"},
{"Nightcrawler",18,38,0,212,4,false,false,true,0,0 ,4,12,23, "Immune nonlethal, Immune Cold"},
{"Planetar",16,36,4,133, 6, true, true, false, 5, 0, 8,14,15,"See Invisibility, Protective Aura"},
{"Nightwalker",16,35,2,179,4,false,false,true,0,0, 6,11,19, "Immune Nonlethal, Immune Cold"},
{"G. Stone Golem",16,27,0,271,3,false,false,false,0,0,-2,14,14, "Immune Nonlethal, Neutral"},
{"Horned Devil",16,29,0,172,6,false,true,true,5,0,7,16,15, "Holy arrows"},
{"Hound A Hero",16,30,0,133, 6, true, true, false,0,0,4,18,13, "Magic Circle V. Evil"},
{"Old Black",16,34,0,287,6,true,true,false,0,0,4,19,16," Mage Armor"},
{"Marut ",15,37,1,112,5,false,false,false,0,0,1,7,8,"T rue Seeing, Anarchic arrows"},
{"Death Slaad",13,33,6,142,6, false,true,false,0,0,10,14,13, "See Invisibility, Magic Circle V. Law, Holy srrows"},
{"E Air Elemental",11,18,0,204,4,false,false,false,0,10,15 ,12,10, "Neutral"},
{"Dread Wraith",11,18,0,104,5,false,false,false,0,0,13,5,1 4, "Immune Nonlethal, Holy Arrows"}};

float round(float precision, float value)
{
value /= precision;
value = roundf(value);
value *= precision;
return value;
}

void print(float damage, float reroll_damage, float kills, float reroll_kills, int hp, int rounds, string separator)
{
damage /= rounds;
reroll_damage /= rounds;
kills /= rounds;
reroll_kills /= rounds;
cout << damage << "/" << reroll_damage << separator;
cout.precision(2);
cout.width(3);
cout << round(0.1,damage/hp) << "/" << round(0.1, reroll_damage/hp) << separator;
cout.precision(3);
cout.width(6);
cout << round(0.01,kills) << "/" << round(0.01,reroll_kills) << separator;
}

void preface_print(const creature& c, string s)
{
if (c.active_effects.length() > 0)
cout << ", ";
cout << s;
}

int main(int argc, char* argv[])
{
double rounds = 1000000;

/* string begin_line("");
string end_line("");
string separator("\t");*/
cout << "

"); string end_line("

" << endl;
}

Ah, good. Nevermind then.

A solar is not proficient with armor and using it's daily miracle for Mage Armor seems unrealistic. I am fully taking into account Magic Vestment, Protective Aura, See Invisibility, and regeneration 15.
Resist Energy isn't listed or relevant (we are dealing nonlethal damage). I missed Heroe's feast---I'll need to add that in.

Solar doesn't need armor proficiency to use an armor with 0 ACP (e.g. Mithril Shirt). Resist Energy and its ilk I just mentioned for completeness' sake. I still won't accept your reading about Merciful as being reasonable whether or not it be RAW, but that's something we'll have to agree to disagree on I suppose. Also, the precombat setup I find is the big thing; caster monsters have more options as do caster PCs of course. But data on one-rounding things is still certainly interesting.

Have you tried Wizard Fighter? Just Quickened Time Stop > Shapechange + all the buffs you can think about (Choker-form for extra actions) and finish with like Transformation and go to town? I found the full attack damage of a Titan Druid rather reasonable so a Wizard should be able to replicate that.