OOTS #1106 - The Discussion Thread

[snowblizz]

My (incredibly unlikely, almost crackpot) theory, until proven otherwise, is that Hilgya returned to her husband, realizing that her one true love had been right in front of her all along, and they resolved their issues like functional adults from then on, and the baby's parents are Hilgya and her husband.

Because wouldn't it be hilarious if Hilgya got to find happiness, contentment, and family in Dwarven Lands, receiving all that fate has denied to Durkon?

Falls to me to crush your hopes then. Any child of Hilgya and husband would nto be of that particular #RGB.

Look at #83, fair skinend both, husband almost a redhead actually. A very reddish brown.

[The MunchKING]

Here's a thought: The loophole they were referring to simply involved the Gods' agreement to keep the Snarl and all things related secret. I'll refer to it as the "Snarl Secrecy Clause".

Thus Thrym sending his giants to attack mortals wasn't anything more than "My god commanded me to kill you" which would be acceptable by the Snarl Secrecy Clause.

Meanwhile Loki wanted Hilgya to get involved but the Snarl Secrecy Clause proscribed him from spilling anything more than Durkon's 'location'. Instead he just told gave her the necessary info knowing/expecting she'd meet up with the OotS and figuring matters would proceed in his favor from there.

That makes a lot of sense...

[OctoberRaven]

I think Hilgya coming back to kill Durkon is a longer callback then the way Chaos is defeated in 8 Bit Theatre...

[JoeyTheNeko]

well we more or less have confirmation that is durkons kid.

[arimareiji]

Am I the only one hoping for a flashback with Hilgya casting a spell that causes a pink + sign to hover in midair?

(I'm already pretty sure I'm the only one who's curious if she just forgot to pray for Protection from Sperm, 10' Radius".)

[Jasdoif]

I have vague memories of someone, possibly the Giant himself (don't quote me 100%, but I feel like it was?), saying something along the lines about Nale maybe not being as lawful as he thought he was.

You mean this?

Even bigger example. Nale. He never seems to do anything Lawful at all. He doesn't have a code. He doesn't follow traditions of law. He would break any code he had if he got his father's empire and his brother's eternal torment. He'd probably backstab Sabine if he had to.

Interesting, that. Don't you think?

[archon_huskie]

Has anyone else figured out yet that the guardian Belkar is referring to is the Fire Sigil Guardian from strip 52?
That's when Belkar is assuming the Dwarves did the nasty as it is the only time the Dwarves were semi-alone as far as he knows.

[danielxcutter]

Not directly related to the current subject, but Hilgya's kid is really cute, isn't he?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Has anyone else figured out yet that the guardian Belkar is referring to is the Fire Sigil Guardian from strip 52?

Multiple people have. It's some kind of hockey reference. Start in page 1, and you'll come across an explanation fairly soon.

GW

[GreatWyrmGold]

I can't believe that Elan was able to remember Hilgya and Roy didn't. I guess he made a successful bardic knowledge check.

Roy has been in the same room as Hilgya for roughly six strips before tonight, and didn't mention her specifically once. Elan went with her (and Durkon and Nale) in the fiery area, and did comment directly on her.

Therkla is True Neutral, confirmed by the Giant (as were many other characters' alignments in a post). Similarly, I don't think it's nearly as certain as you seem to think that Nale is Lawful.

I'm not convinced that Therkla being two steps (or 1.5, depending on how you count "diagonals") from Elan affects my point that much. As for Nale...Elan shares his mother's alignment and Nale's father is LE, Nale's modus operandi (particularly the precise plans) matches perfectly with certain defining breeds of LE and not at all with any major kind of CE, he said he was lawful, and the only particularly chaotic thing he did (aside from breaking the law, which...you know...evil) was not want to be under the influence of his father, which seemed more like a basic independence thing than a chaos thing. You have a shocking lack of evidence.
But let's leave out Nale for now. Out of the three "relationships" with identical alignments, one worked and two failed. Does this sound like stunning confirmation that alignments are vital to relationship success, or might other factors be more important? Factors like shared interests (which killed the TN/TN relationship) or similar priorities (which killed the LG/LG not-quite-one)?

Nale believed himself to be Lawful, but that doesn't mean he was right, and Rich has hinted that the Lawful/Chaotic axis of his alignment should be viewed as ambiguous.

This isn't exactly convincing. I can't think of any other time that someone has not had an accurate understanding of their own alignment, and more than they misunderstood their class or skill ranks.

You mean this?

I don't find Sunken Valley's points very convincing. I mean, that seems only slightly less lawful than rowdy, boisterous, stubborn folks...like dwarves, considered the epitome of law.
Not sure what to make of the Giant's comment, but I don't see Nale as being all that unLawful. He doesn't seem less Lawful than many devils, for instance. (Qarr's an imp, no?) This is going to sound wrong to anyone who isn't into Death of the Author, but...I don't find Rich Burlew's point about Nale's alignment very convincing. Which is probably the end of the argument, if the other guy believes WoG over textual interpretation.

[Keltest]

Rich was exceptionally, and almost certainly deliberately, noncommittal as to what Nale's alignment was. It can, at most, be taken as a confirmation that he wanted people thinking about Nale's alignment and how he maybe failed to live up to his stated ideals.

[Fyraltari]

Snip

I think you can add Eugene and Sara Greenhilt to your list of dysfonctionnal relationships with same alignment.

[atemu1234]

(Snipped)

Psst, you may want to delete that comment. It goes against forum rules to reference posters from previous threads like that.

Actually, Nale said himself in #57 that he is lawful. (Sorry, don't know how to provide links)

Like this.
Exact quote:

Of course, I'm Lawful
Evil, so I see no reason not to honor my contract with Xykon and kill you.

[KorvinStarmast]

(I'm already pretty sure I'm the only one who's curious if she just forgot to pray for Protection from Sperm, 10' Radius".)

10' poles stopped being standard issue in D&D about three editions ago. :p

[Bob_McSurly]

This isn't exactly convincing. I can't think of any other time that someone has not had an accurate understanding of their own alignment, and more than they misunderstood their class or skill ranks.

I don't remember the exact strip, but at some point, Therkla, who is True Neutral by Word of Giant, hides from a Detect Evil as if she thought it would say she was Evil.

[Fyraltari]

Psst, you may want to delete that comment. It goes against forum rules to reference posters from previous threads like that.

If you say so. That "joke" was mean spirited and in bad taste any way.

[KeiranHalcyon]

What's this? Vaarsuvius caught in an obscure grammatical error (and opportunity for extra verbosity)? And nine pages of comments without anyone pointing it out?

Spoiler

Show

...experience has taught me that that only guarantees it to be the case.

(It's not that I don't think the Giant is allowed to make mistakes; it's more that pedantry and verbosity are V's things. You know, other that telling the laws of physics to sit down and shut up.)

[Emanick]

Out of the three "relationships" with identical alignments, one worked and two failed. Does this sound like stunning confirmation that alignments are vital to relationship success, or might other factors be more important? Factors like shared interests (which killed the TN/TN relationship) or similar priorities (which killed the LG/LG not-quite-one?

Nobody mentioned the Roy-Celia relationship, which is a pretty solid success, so let’s make that two successful relationships with identical alignments.

Since most relationships fail, and at least one relationship failed due mostly to alignment related issues, it seems fair to conclude that alignment does play a role in compatibility. It’s just not the only important variable, and certainly far from being the dominant one. (I also think its importance probably varies from person to person. I would be surprised if alignment played as much of a role in Elan’s love life as it did in Roy’s, for instance.)

[Darth Paul]

I wish. I'm not allowed because I studied for a year in the UK during the mad cow disease panic.

I sincerely doubt that I'm a carrier for Creutzfeld-Jacob, but "the only way to test is to biopsy my dead brain" so not much I can do.

Wow. Small world. You're the only other person I've ever known who is affected by this clause.

In my case, they tell me "It doesn't matter that you were there over twenty years ago, and have no other risk factors, we still can't let you donate. Want to hand out cookies and orange juice?"

[Ruck]

This isn't exactly convincing. I can't think of any other time that someone has not had an accurate understanding of their own alignment, and more than they misunderstood their class or skill ranks.



I don't find Sunken Valley's points very convincing. I mean, that seems only slightly less lawful than rowdy, boisterous, stubborn folks...like dwarves, considered the epitome of law.
Not sure what to make of the Giant's comment, but I don't see Nale as being all that unLawful. He doesn't seem less Lawful than many devils, for instance. (Qarr's an imp, no?) This is going to sound wrong to anyone who isn't into Death of the Author, but...I don't find Rich Burlew's point about Nale's alignment very convincing. Which is probably the end of the argument, if the other guy believes WoG over textual interpretation.

Rich was exceptionally, and almost certainly deliberately, noncommittal as to what Nale's alignment was. It can, at most, be taken as a confirmation that he wanted people thinking about Nale's alignment and how he maybe failed to live up to his stated ideals.

Yeah, if the author of the story making a very clear insinuation that Nale didn't exactly live up to his stated alignment is something you "don't find convincing," then absolutely nothing will be convincing to you.

What's this? Vaarsuvius caught in an obscure grammatical error (and opportunity for extra verbosity)? And nine pages of comments without anyone pointing it out?

Spoiler

Show

...experience has taught me that that only guarantees it to be the case.

(It's not that I don't think the Giant is allowed to make mistakes; it's more that pedantry and verbosity are V's things. You know, other that telling the laws of physics to sit down and shut up.)

It's been corrected, but the original version looks grammatically correct to me.

[jere7my]

What's this? Vaarsuvius caught in an obscure grammatical error (and opportunity for extra verbosity)? And nine pages of comments without anyone pointing it out?

Spoiler

Show

...experience has taught me that that only guarantees it to be the case.

(It's not that I don't think the Giant is allowed to make mistakes; it's more that pedantry and verbosity are V's things. You know, other that telling the laws of physics to sit down and shut up.)

That's not an error; you don't need the first "that". I could say "You claimed that was an error" or "You claimed that that was an error"; either works.

[brian 333]

There is another motivation more in line with Hilgya's personality: Durkon had the audacity to refuse her.

She wasn't necessarily in love with him, and she could not care less about his duty to her, the baby, the dwarven state, or the world, but HOW DARE HE REJECT HER!

Remember that girl in junior high that told everyone that she really liked that boy, but he asked her best friend out instead? Yeah, like that. Hilgya isn't thinking about anything but that she was rejected.

[F.Harr]

I get the feeling that her desire for murder might become a plot point at some point.

Poor Roy. He so wants to live in a world that makes sense. At least Vaarsuvious has figured out that that doesn't work.

[The MunchKING]

Because she rebuked fire elementals.

Clerics whose deity grants special turn abilities may not gain the normal Turn/Rebuke Undead ability. Instead, such characters, if they want to have the ability to turn undead, must take it as a feat.

That sounds like Pathfinder. I'm not aware of any rules that say Elemental Ceric Domains don't get normal turning too, and I'm pretty sure there isn't any feats in 3.5 to give you turning.

[brian 333]

That sounds like Pathfinder. I'm not aware of any rules that say Elemental Ceric Domains don't get normal turning too, and I'm pretty sure there isn't any feats in 3.5 to give you turning.

You are correct. After double checking I discovered my error and I have removed that from my post. 3.5 was several dozen years and rulesets ago and I have scrambled bits of them in my head.

[Ruck]

There is another motivation more in line with Hilgya's personality: Durkon had the audacity to refuse her.

She wasn't necessarily in love with him, and she could not care less about his duty to her, the baby, the dwarven state, or the world, but HOW DARE HE REJECT HER!

Remember that girl in junior high that told everyone that she really liked that boy, but he asked her best friend out instead? Yeah, like that. Hilgya isn't thinking about anything but that she was rejected.

That's more in line with Nale's personality.

[Evil Genius]

Hilgya is probably casting spontaneously in strip #77 (sorry, can't post links yet) so it should come as no surprise she can turn undead.

[Shining Wrath]

One : that's not what (non-)Immaculate mean (it's about the Original Sin, not sex, common mistake).

Two : You are really putting the "Wild" in "wild Man Guess".

It also refers to Mary, not Jesus. The non-Immaculate nature I was referring to was free from sin, specifically, Loki's. As I said, screwing over one's own clerics. That's not nice, even by Loki's standards.

[BrolySSG]

Loki rules

It's ironic that what Hilgya said about "that jerk leaving her behind in the dangeon" and Elan's replay that "He's dead now anyway" aplies to both... Nale and Durkon

[KorvinStarmast]

What I'm wondering is, why does Minrah look so similar to Hilgya? Blond hair, white skin, and similar armor make them downright difficult to tell apart in some panels.

Their clothing/costumes provide a clue.

I pray at night, and I'm not a vampire. I suppose I'm less sure about my alignment though. Can I change my alignment by praying in the morning? :-)

Last I heard the idea was to pray constantly (1Thes5;17) but I think we are going off topic. (I enjoyed your joke ).

Wow. Small world. You're the only other person I've ever known who is affected by this clause.

In my case, they tell me "It doesn't matter that you were there over twenty years ago, and have no other risk factors, we still can't let you donate. Want to hand out cookies and orange juice?"

I have been rejected by multiple bloodmobiles, and the US Air Force, from donating blood since the late 90's on that same basis: Mad Cow Disease maybe due to when I was in Europe (not even in England). I finally stopped offering.

She wasn't necessarily in love with him, and she could not care less about his duty to her, the baby, the dwarven state, or the world, but HOW DARE HE REJECT HER!

Remember that girl in junior high that told everyone that she really liked that boy, but he asked her best friend out instead? Yeah, like that. Hilgya isn't thinking about anything but that she was rejected.

Not the story I'd hope to read, but I can see that fitting what little we know of the character so far.

Poor Roy. He so wants to live in a world that makes sense. At least Vaarsuvious has figured out that that doesn't work.

I see what you did there with that. Nicely played.