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2017-12-27, 11:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?
The first question in my mind is whether Bounding Assault allows you to attack with an off-hand weapon using the second attack. It gives you an extra attack at a -5 penalty, which is essentially an iterative, but iteratives are not well-defined in the rules. The question then becomes, can you use your iteratives to make attacks with off-hand weapons? If so, I'd be willing to accept it ... but there's still a problem. Bounding Assault has a BAB 12+ prerequisite. At the time the Hex Hag strip was published, this was ok but not great, since it required him to have gained two levels from the bandits and other encounters since town. However, we know from the CDMI strip that his level 12 feat was CDMI, which means he couldn't possibly have Bounding Assault during the hex hag fight, even if he was level 12 at the time. Meanwhile he could have had Two-Weapon
RendPounce as early as level 6, and it unambiguously explains the Hex Hag attack. Belkar thus definitely has Two-WeaponRendPounce, and I'm pretty sure he has Leap Attack as well. Leap Attack is a separate rules question, though, which I'm not addressing in this post.
Belkar could conceivably need Bounding Assault for his attack on Miron (listed as evidence for Spring Attack, which is certainly insufficient because Belkar makes two attacks), but this suffers from the same initial problem as the Hex Hag fight, and pushes his feat count too high unless you assume he has none of Improved Sunder, Leap Attack, or Power Attack.
I think the simplest way to resolve the Miron fight is to assume Belkar's movement is depicted in a stylized manner, as it must be in the Thieves' Guild fight, and just drop the entire Dodge tree, for which no other evidence remains.
Regardless, Belkar's current entry has one too many feats, and he must lose one of Improved Sunder or Bounding Assault based on prerequisites. If you add Two-Weapon Rend, he must lose a second feat.
ED:
For completion's sake, in strip 860, Belkar attacks Nale with the same jump -> attack with each weapon manuever as in the Hex Hag fight. I'm not sure if he does it on panel anywhere else in the comic.Last edited by unbeliever536; 2018-01-07 at 12:50 AM.
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2017-12-27, 02:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?
Why are we actually putting down CDMI as an actual feat rather than as a break of the 4th Wall?
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2017-12-27, 04:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?
For one thing, Belkar doesn't break the 4th wall during that scene. He's just explaining to Durkon how he came up with his line, and why it worked. More importantly, it's simpler to just take the things the characters say at face value, like Elan's immunity to damage from broken glass.
Last edited by unbeliever536; 2017-12-27 at 11:02 PM.
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2017-12-28, 01:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?
I'm not sure about this, but what's the consensus on Thor's Might and Hel's Might? Is this just Durkon and Greg's respective gods/goddesses giving them power, or would it count as an ability/spell?
If it's the first one, I'm sure Durkon's spells "Heathen Smiting", "Tumor" and "Heat Blisters Of Eternal Pain" would also be things that Thor grants upon him (a bit of his power put into the answering machine). I'm also sure that if they were spells Durkon could cast without asking Thor's answering machine first in prayer (he was out of spells at the time, I think) he would have used them at some point in the last 1100 comics if this wasn't just a gag. So, I don't think they should be in his spells list
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2017-12-28, 02:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?
I'm pretty sure both Thor's Might and Hel's Might are just different names for Righteous Might.
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2017-12-29, 10:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?
If Hilgya can cast Scrying, she has to have a Wisdom of 15.
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2017-12-30, 03:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?
And Righteous Might is a standard cleric spell, so any cleric (regardless of domains) can cast it, so it doesn't really tell us anything we didn't already know (namely, that Durkon and not-Durkon are both clerics).
Thor's Lightning is probably also a renaming of some other spell, but we don't know which one, and none of the likely prospects is on the standard cleric list, so we continue to list that one explicitly as something that Durkon has, and which presumably came from one of his domains.Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
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2017-12-30, 05:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?
It is almost certainly Call Lightning, since the comic of Durkon using it shows it striking from the sky instead of from his fingertips, as it would with Lightning Bolt.
Call Lightning is the third level domain spell of the Forgotten Realms Storm Domain.
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2017-12-30, 05:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?
That may be the exception rather than the rule though - most of the time, it strikes horizontally:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0215.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0473.html
Maybe Durkon calls "Thor's Lightning" for several different spells, instead of bothering with "Thor's Lightning Bolt" or "Thor's Chain Lightning"?Last edited by hamishspence; 2017-12-30 at 06:00 PM.
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2018-01-01, 03:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?
Why should a man be scorned if, finding himself in prison, he tries to get out and go home? Or if, when he cannot do so, he thinks and talks about other topics than jailers and prison-walls?
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?
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Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2018-01-02, 12:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?
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2018-01-02, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?
The immunity to broken glass is physically demonstrated. I agree Belkar isn't breaking the fourth wall there, but CDMI is almost certainly an in-character joke. He doesn't need the feat to do what he did. It strikes me as a terrible misreading to use that comic as a reason to occupy one of Belkar's feat spots. Especially when its inclusion causes Belkar to have one feat too many listed.
I recommend CDMI be removed or, if it's to be listed, marked as a possible joke and not used as a basis for removing any other feats.
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2018-01-02, 04:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?
Between the village (when Belkar just barely hit level 10) and the Hex Hag, Belkar kills three low level barbarians and is involved in the ogre fight, the first bandit fight, the second bandit "fight", and the tetherball special (and I'm being generous by including the last two; the second bandit encounter isn't a fight and ends in a loss, and Belkar doesn't really participate in the last one). Do you think that's enough to get him the ~21,000 XP he would need to be level 12 during the Hex Hag fight?
ed:
I also just noticed that while his inventory does state that he has three daggers, it doesn't mention that his third one is a +5 Collision dagger.Last edited by unbeliever536; 2018-01-02 at 04:57 PM.
Why should a man be scorned if, finding himself in prison, he tries to get out and go home? Or if, when he cannot do so, he thinks and talks about other topics than jailers and prison-walls?
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2018-01-06, 09:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?
According to Haley, Elan was level 12 by strip 382
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2018-01-06, 05:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-01-07, 12:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?
You're right, the relationship is a bit distant. If Belkar isn't level 12 by the Hex Hag fight, he can't have had Bounding Assault then, which means it can't explain the double stab and he must have Two-Weapon
RendPounce*. In that case, he would have two feats more than is legal, and removing CDMI wouldn't solve the problem. At that point you're back to the same "which feat(s) do we remove" problem I talked about before.
In that case, the feats he has that are not prerequisites for other feats are TWP, CDMI, Bounding Assault, and Improved Sunder. Removing Bounding Assault allows Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack to all be removed, and removing Improved Sunder allows Power Attack to be removed. I think the most economical thing is to just dump the entire Dodge tree, since (1) it's only there if Bounding Assault is needed, (2) the only evidence for Bounding Assault is the Miron fight and we have evidence that Belkar's movement might be stylized anyway (and also, note that Elan and Mr Scruffy seem to teleport off panel for no particular reason immediately before Laurin's attack), and (3) I believe that the Hex Hag fight also shows that Belkar has Leap Attack, which would require keeping Power Attack even without Improved Sunder.
As to why Belkar would have Power Attack despite getting no benefit from it, we're shown in the very first strip that Belkar got screwed by the 3.5 update, prior to which Power Attack would have benefited him (according to dandwiki, which is admittedly not the most reliable source).
ed:
We've actually got a better one for this argument: according to the Giant, Belkar was level 12 by strip 250 or so. That's a while after the strip in question, of course, and follows the dragon fight, the dirt farmer rescue mission, and the events of the inn (where again Belkar didn't do much), but it does show that he could be telling the truth about CDMI, assuming it's actually a feat.
* I just realized that I've been saying Two-Weapon Rend this entire time when it's not the feat I mean. Rather embarrassing given my guessed origin for the Bounding Assault entry.
e2:
I found the discussion that resulted in Bounding Assault being added (as Bounding Attack). It starts with questions about whether Belkar's fight with Crystal means he has Improved Trip. Despite what everyone there is saying, the only reason to believe he does is that Crystal doesn't appear to get an AoO, as the "new round" version allows Belkar to have full attacked with a trip at the start. Belkar also doesn't qualify for Combat Expertise and therefore can't get Improved Trip. There was some discussion of giving Belkar flaws, which would grant him feats, but that obviously never happened (and unless he talks about having flaws-the-game-mechanic, probably never should). Thread XIII corrected the name of the feat to Bounding Assault and linked it to the Hex Hag fight for reasons which remain mysterious to me.
In any case, Wombat's post there is referring to the discussion earlier in the thread about the Miron strip, which resulted in Spring Attack being added (and Great Cleave being removed). In any case, the Miron fight is pretty well-worn territory at this point and I'm not going to bore everyone by reiterating the stuff I've already said about it.Last edited by unbeliever536; 2018-01-07 at 03:49 AM.
Why should a man be scorned if, finding himself in prison, he tries to get out and go home? Or if, when he cannot do so, he thinks and talks about other topics than jailers and prison-walls?
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2018-01-07, 12:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?
I think that trying to extrapolate level from the number of feats, or limiting number of feats based on assumed level, given the amount of uncertainty involved, is basically circular reasoning (even leaving aside the fact that the giant is almost certainly not counting feats, let alone pre-requisites).
If therefore suggest as regards CDMI that we leave it in (Belkar did make the claim, after all) with an asterisk/parenthetical reading something like “Belkar’s claim may be a joke, so possession of this feat should not be taken as evidence for his total number of feats.”
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2018-01-07, 02:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?
For Roy this would make sense, since he's a fighter and thus has a huge number of feats. For most other characters, though, it's pretty easy to pin them to a particular number of feats, since feats advance slowly with level and non-fighters have a relatively limited selection of bonus feats.
edit:
Just to show it's possible, here's a feat analysis for Haley. She's a 16th level human rogue, so she has the following feat slots available:
H - Martial Weapon Proficiency (Longbow)
1 - Point Blank Shot
3 - Rapid Shot
6 - Dodge?
9 - Manyshot
10 (RSA) - Ranged Pin?
12 - Ranged Sunder
13 (RSA) - Precise Shot
15 - Improved Precise Shot
16 (RSA) - ???
Feats marked (RSA) are bonus feats from a Rogue Special Ability. These may be any feat, but they're relatively infrequent. The first feat Haley demonstrates she has is MWP (Longbow). In strip 62 she demonstrates both Rapid Shot and Manyshot, which also imply Point Blank Shot, so I'll give her those as early as she can take them. She then uses Ranged Pin (we assume) on Roy's corpse. There's no obvious way to do what she does in the rules, but Ranged Pin is fairly close. Next she Ranged Sunders a hobgoblin's whip. Then in #615 she says she's "got a feat that does most of [what the Seeking property would grant her]". This feat is Improved Precise Shot (ignore less than total cover/concealment; it's rare that she'd be able to target someone with full cover or concealment, so Seeking isn't a big upgrade), which requires BA +11 and Precise Shot. Thus IPS is her 15th* level feat and Precise Shot is either her 13th or 6th level feat. According to SSDT, which I don't own, she also has Dodge. To be conservative, I'll give her Dodge at level 6 and Precise Shot at level 13. It's not totally clear how much stuff carries over from SSDT, so she might not actually have that feat.
Dodge and Ranged Pin are the most questionable feats here, but they're legal and don't determine her level so I settle on the side that she does have them. She may or may not have another feat, gained from her 16th level Rogue Special Ability. If we ever see her clearly take half damage from a threat that offers a Reflex Save (I don't think we have), we'll know she spent it on Improved Evasion. There are others, but that would probably be the most obvious one, as many relate to melee combat.
* The table of levelups currently lists #648 for her 15th level. Both 648 and 615 demonstrate that she is level 15, but 615 is first, so she's got the level a bit earlier than we currently state.
e2:
Just for fun, I did a set of these tables for the entire OOTS. My table for Belkar is in a previous thread and I won't take up more space with the rest of them unless someone asks. That said, it's interesting to note that Roy has only two free feat slots left. They don't need to be fighter bonus feats, though, and they can move around pretty freely. If there's some way for him to get around the Large size requirement (without spending another feat, obviously), those last two feats could be Rock Hurling and Fling Enemy (e3: actually, it's possible his throws of Xykon and Enor could be explained by Martial Study (Mighty Throw) instead of Improved Grapple and maybe Fling Enemy). Unless someone can come up with a way for Roy to avoid the size requirement, though, I don't think those things are adequate evidence. Regardless, Belkar has one free feat slot (maybe zero if there's a way for the Bounding Assault advocates to save CDMI), depending on how the current argument resolves, Vaarsuvius has five, Elan has three, and Durkon has three.Last edited by unbeliever536; 2018-01-08 at 06:17 PM.
Why should a man be scorned if, finding himself in prison, he tries to get out and go home? Or if, when he cannot do so, he thinks and talks about other topics than jailers and prison-walls?
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2018-01-09, 01:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?
1109: Looks like Count Durkula's gotten himself some 8th level spell slots, so he's level 15. Not sure where he would have gotten the XP to level though with that +8 level adjustment, unless that's a carry-over from the pyramid battle before he died.
Edit: Also, V seems pretty confident that Roy and Belkar each have 150+ HP, and that nobody else does.Last edited by Kranerian; 2018-01-09 at 01:46 PM.
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?
Spells cast from Strip 1084 to Strip 1150:
Spoiler: Durkon, level 15 => 13, 24 => 22 WIS8th symbol of death (1109), - (domain, lost 1149 from losing level 15)
7th mass inflict serious wounds (1119), - (lost 1150 from losing level 14), - (lost 1149 from losing Vampire WIS bonus), - (domain)
6th greater dispel magic (1122), antilife shell (1126), - , - (lost 1150 from losing level 14), - (domain)
5th commune (1084), - , - , - , - (lost 1149 from losing level 15), - (domain)
4th sending (1109), - , - , - , - (lost 1149 from losing Vampire WIS bonus), - (domain)
3rd protection from energy (1150), - , - , - , - , - , - (lost 1149 from losing level 15), - (domain)
2nd - , - , - , - , - , - , - , - (domain)
1st - , - , - , - , - , - , - , - (domain)
0 - , - , - , - , - , -
Spoiler: Vaarsuvius, level 16, 24 INT8th mind blank x2 (1091, 1104), - (specialist, drained 1102)
7th forcecage (specialist, 1102), quickened fireball (mentioned not cast 1104, possibly drained 1105 [out of 2 drained 1105]), - (possibly drained 1105 [out of 2 drained 1105]), - (possibly drained 1105 [out of 2 drained 1105]), -
6th - , - , - , - , - (specialist)
5th - , - , - , - , - , - (specialist)
4th stoneskin (1117), - , - , - , - , - (specialist)
3rd fireball (1122), - , - , - , - , - , - , - , - , - , - (specialist)
2nd see invisibility (1100), - , - , - , - , - , - (specialist)
1st magic missile x2 (specialist, 1105, 1120), - , - , - , - , -
0 light (1101), - , - , -
Spoiler: Hilgya, level 15, 24 WIS8th resurrection (1149 [7th-level spell prepared in 8th-level slot]), incendiary cloud/cloak of chaos (domain)
7th greater scrying (1109), empowered flame strike x2 (1119, 1128), fire storm/word of chaos (domain)
6th - , - , - , - , fire seeds/animate objects (domain)
5th summon monster V (1116), flame strike x2 (1123, 1149), raise dead (1150), - , fire shield/dispel law (domain)
4th death ward (1110), restoration (1110), - , - , - , - , chaos hammer (domain, 1117)
3rd - , - , - , - , - , - , - , resist energy/magic circle against law (domain)
2nd - , - , - , - , - , - , - , produce flame/shatter (domain)
1st - , - , - , - , - , - , - , burning hands/protection from law (domain)
0 - , - , - , - , - , -
1109 confirms that Durkon (because the vampire uses Durkon's stats as a base, and only exists mechanically as the vampire template [which applies +2 Wis, hence the 24 Wis instead of 22], not a creature with its own hit dice) is level 15.
EDIT: oh, and Hilgya's level 13+, going by her use of greater scrying.Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2019-01-30 at 12:24 PM.
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2018-01-09, 02:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?
Okay. If Hilgya can cast Greater Scrying, she has a minimum Wisdom of 17. And, unfortunately, she's done this without a spell scroll, therefore she's had the spell prepared, and she's a minimum Cleric level of 13.
That is... difficult, to reconcile with the Vampire Spawn problem as we've previously debated before.
What if the Church of Loki allows its clerics to turn undead, but as a lower Cleric level than that of a Good cleric/positive energy Neutral cleric?"When will I ever stop telling stories? Well, you see..."
That's what loyal teammates do for each other, isn't it? You know, when they're not busy getting new haircuts.
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?
V is confident that the Symbol of Death probably isn't a threat to Roy due to his "general heartiness", but unfortunately, there are two different interpretations of what that means: It could mean that he has over 150 HP and thus would be completely immune to the Symbol, or it could just mean that he has a very good Fort save and thus would be likely to save against it. Neither is a very remarkable statement for a high-level fighter, so I don't think we can learn anything about Roy this way, and a wizard, rogue, and bard would all be "frailer" by either standard, so we can't learn anything about the others this way, either. For whatever reason, V doesn't mention Belkar in either category (hearty or frail), so we also can't learn anything about him, either.
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?
I find it rather unlikely that Durkon was level 15 at the start of Pyramid Day. If nothing else, Holy Aura would have made the second Linear Guild fight simpler. That said, depending on how level up rules work in OOTS, it's possible he reached level 15 before dying on that day and simply didn't get a chance to prepare his new spells. If he was level 15 by the time of that fight in the pyramid, that would put Belkar and Nale at level 16 and give Belkar an opportunity to have acquired his Favored Enemy (Undead), which we suspect he didn't have during the battle of Azure City.
As to Belkar, while he can't match Roy's HD and Constitution, he is the only other (living) member of the OOTS with a good Fortitude save. He can't ignore the Symbol of Death, but it's less likely to work on him.Last edited by unbeliever536; 2018-01-09 at 03:30 PM.
Why should a man be scorned if, finding himself in prison, he tries to get out and go home? Or if, when he cannot do so, he thinks and talks about other topics than jailers and prison-walls?
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2018-01-09, 03:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?
Even the wind will know agony.
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?
I'm not seeing what he meant either, so I'll just remind myself in the back of my mind that we're responding to V's #1 greatest fan here.
Okay, but in all seriousness, I want to ask a bit more directly about the previous comic.
We all assumed that the vampires we saw in the Forcecage fight were spawn, but since Hilgya has now demonstrated as being Level 13, we have to assume that our current parameters by RAW are impossible to reconcile now. Right?
So, other than outward WoG, is there any rules reason Hilgya might have for being unable to destroy the vampires when she Turned them?"When will I ever stop telling stories? Well, you see..."
That's what loyal teammates do for each other, isn't it? You know, when they're not busy getting new haircuts.
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?
Does the "Anarchic Water" in 1109 imply anything about Hilgya's alignment? Specifically that she's Chaotic Neutral and not Chaotic Evil, or at least that she leans more toward Chaos than Evil?
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?
Last edited by Aquillion; 2018-01-09 at 04:30 PM.