Completely unimportant language misuses that bug you

[Yuki Akuma]

"The driver beeped the horn."

That's not a pronoun, that's an article - but yes, you can just... rearrange a sentence so it doesn't need a pronoun, in many cases.

[Bohandas]

Just noticed something weird on wikitionay. Why are "Orwellian" and "Kafkaesque" spelled (according to wiktionary) with capital letters while "sadistic" is spelled with a lowercase first letter?

[Kyrell1978]

Just noticed something weird on wikitionay. Why are "Orwellian" and "Kafkaesque" spelled (according to wiktionary) with capital letters while "sadistic" is spelled with a lowercase first letter?

Perhaps it is because Orwellian is based off of the individual's name and sadistic is based off of a title? That's purely conjecture though so.......good question.

[halfeye]

Perhaps it is because Orwellian is based off of the individual's name and sadistic is based off of a title? That's purely conjecture though so.......good question.

The Marquis de Sade was a name of a particular marquis (or series of marquises, probably). It's probably more to do with the usage becoming so general that the connection to the name is forgotten.

[Kyrell1978]

The Marquis de Sade was a name of a particular marquis (or series of marquises, probably). It's probably more to do with the usage becoming so general that the connection to the name is forgotten.

Donatien Alphonse François de Sade was his name (the one we're talking about anyway), but I thought that the "Marquis de Sade" was the hereditary family title. I could be mistaken certainly.

[halfeye]

Donatien Alphonse François de Sade was his name (the one we're talking about anyway),

I didn't know that.

but I thought that the "Marquis de Sade" was the hereditary family title. I could be mistaken certainly.

Probably, but then if the surname changed, would the title change with it? If so, then the "Sade" bit is the name, and "Marquis" was the title/rank (I'm assuming that "de" is more or less "the").

[Kyrell1978]

Probably, but then if the surname changed, would the title change with it? If so, then the "Sade" bit is the name, and "Marquis" was the title/rank (I'm assuming that "de" is more or less "the").

I don't know but the first guy in that family to use the title "Marquis" instead of "Comte" was a de Sade by name but was known as the Marquis de Mazan. I have no idea how all of that works.

[georgie_leech]

I don't know but the first guy in that family to use the title "Marquis" instead of "Comte" was a de Sade by name but was known as the Marquis de Mazan. I have no idea how all of that works.

In that case the "de" is being used to mean "of," or "of Mazan."

[Grey_Wolf_c]

"One" is generic; it means anyone.

So that still leaves unanswered the question of what you do when you need a gender-neutral pronoun for a specific person: "The driver beeped [...] horn."

The driver beeped their horn.

Grey Wolf

[georgie_leech]

The driver beeped their horn.

Grey Wolf

Right; some texts state that is grammatically incorrect.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Right; some texts state that is grammatically incorrect.

Are they the same that tell you not to split infinitives? According to the wiki, they opposition to the singular "they" is from the same era: late 19th century. It seems to have been an era of prescriptivism gone mad.

Grey Wolf

[Tvtyrant]

Right; some texts state that is grammatically incorrect.

The driver beepingly horned.

[Peelee]

The driver beepingly horned.

This is the most correct that ever corrected.

[Tvtyrant]

This is the most correct that ever corrected.

"Horn!" Beeped the driver.

[Aedilred]

#Prescriptivist4Life

[Peelee]

#Prescriptivist4Life

I vote Aedilred for thread winner.

[Xuc Xac]

That's not a pronoun, that's an article - but yes, you can just... rearrange a sentence so it doesn't need a pronoun, in many cases.

Even if I knew the driver's gender, I would still say "The driver beeped the horn." If "driver" is definite ("the driver") then "horn" is also definite because each driver only has access to one horn each.

[2D8HP]

Even if I knew the driver's gender, I would still say "The driver beeped the horn." If "driver is definite ("the driver") then "horn" is also definite because each driver only has access to one horn each.

Even if I knew the drivers gender, I'm pretty sure I'd say "That [censored word] bleeped the [censored word]ing horn!" "Don't you honk at me [censored word], you [censored word]!"

Please and thank you.

[Kyrell1978]

Even if I knew the drivers gender, I'm pretty sure I'd say "That [censored word] bleeped the [censored word]ing horn!" "Don't you honk at me [censored word], you [censored word]!"

Please and thank you.

This is me, but without that last bit.

[Lissou]

The "de" in "Marquis de Sade" indeed means "of". It's used to link a title and a name. In this case, the name is "Sade", and the title could be "Marquis" or "Monsieur" or something. Actually, it also links a last name and a first name. But it's a link, so you don't use it if you're not linking stuff, so if you're just using his last name you just say "Sade".

I think it's possible that "masochist" and "sadist" are now considered far enough from the original authors that they're not capitalized while "Orwellian" still makes people think of the author primarily and hasn't gained a "life" of its own as an adjective, so it still has the capital.

[Razade]

The "de" in "Marquis de Sade" indeed means "of". It's used to link a title and a name. In this case, the name is "Sade", and the title could be "Marquis" or "Monsieur" or something. Actually, it also links a last name and a first name. But it's a link, so you don't use it if you're not linking stuff, so if you're just using his last name you just say "Sade".

I think it's possible that "masochist" and "sadist" are now considered far enough from the original authors that they're not capitalized while "Orwellian" still makes people think of the author primarily and hasn't gained a "life" of its own as an adjective, so it still has the capital.

I would argue that most people couldn't name either de Sade or von Sacher-Masoch if pressed. How many people in this thread knew that Masochist was named after Leopold von Sacher-Masoch? Because I sure didn't know that. I thought they were both coined after de Sade.

[Lissou]

I only knew it because I studied literature, so yes, I agree most people wouldn't (Also, as I was just saying, it's just "Sade" when you don't have something in front of it).

[Bohandas]

I would argue that most people couldn't name either de Sade or von Sacher-Masoch if pressed. How many people in this thread knew that Masochist was named after Leopold von Sacher-Masoch?

I knew it.

[Aedilred]

The "de" in "Marquis de Sade" indeed means "of". It's used to link a title and a name. In this case, the name is "Sade", and the title could be "Marquis" or "Monsieur" or something. Actually, it also links a last name and a first name. But it's a link, so you don't use it if you're not linking stuff, so if you're just using his last name you just say "Sade".

Although in this instance this is correct, it's not a universal rule and one needs to be careful. Strictly, here, the full title is "Marquis de Sade" and so when dropping the "Marquis" you don't need the "de". Ancien Regime France had a pretty casual attitude towards surnames, so the title stands in for one.

But often, the "de x" is a surname without a title in which case the "de" is preserved. This is particularly common in families in Britain (and presumably in Canada, the US, etc.) which have French names but are not actually French and haven't been for generations.

[Lissou]

Good point. Look at whether there is a title of nobility and that should help with that. But this is the perfect thread to complain about this :P

[Vinyadan]

The "de" simply means "of" or "from". So it's fairly common for surnames coming from the name of a parent, or from the name of a place.

[Lissou]

The "de" simply means "of" or "from". So it's fairly common for surnames coming from the name of a parent, or from the name of a place.

Yes, as well as "du" (which means "of the"), but they're often part of the name itself, such as "Dubois" (of the woods) for instance.

[georgie_leech]

Yes, as well as "du" (which means "of the"), but they're often part of the name itself, such as "Dubois" (of the woods) for instance.

Or rather, they became that way over time. Trace it back far enough, and you would see, say, du Bois.

[snowblizz]

The "de" in "Marquis de Sade" indeed means "of". It's used to link a title and a name. In this case, the name is "Sade", and the title could be "Marquis" or "Monsieur" or something. Actually, it also links a last name and a first name. But it's a link, so you don't use it if you're not linking stuff, so if you're just using his last name you just say "Sade".

If the famous de Sade had a brother he would have been the Comte de Sade (or some such). Only the senior member would usually have the primary title. So the duke of Enghien became Prince de Condé when his fater died, known later in life as the Great Condé.

I think it's possible that "masochist" and "sadist" are now considered far enough from the original authors that they're not capitalized while "Orwellian" still makes people think of the author primarily and hasn't gained a "life" of its own as an adjective, so it still has the capital.

Basically yes. Neither Kafka or Orwell are removed enough, or common enough in use (like some brand names that have been genericised[is that a word? You can google it.]), for us to have devolved their names into generic terms. Yet.

I would argue that most people couldn't name either de Sade or von Sacher-Masoch if pressed. How many people in this thread knew that Masochist was named after Leopold von Sacher-Masoch? Because I sure didn't know that. I thought they were both coined after de Sade.

It's not exactly whether you know of the people. I bet quite a few talking about Orwellian or Kafkaesque (why isn't it Orwellesque or Kafkian?) actually know who the authors were or the works themselves. We are miles closer to Orwell and Kafka though than the kinky guys of history. But basically both sadist and masochist have lost connection to the original source of the words in language.

I guess we could use Sadellian (in the manner of Sade) or Masochesque (like Masoch) and orwellist (follower of Orwell) and kafkism (in the style Kafka) or some such.

But we'd need som prescriptivists for that job.

[Rockphed]

I guess we could use Sadellian (in the manner of Sade) or Masochesque (like Masoch) and orwellist (follower of Orwell) and kafkism (in the style Kafka) or some such.

But we'd need some prescriptivists for that job.

My biggest problem with masochism is how to pronounce the dang word. I'm certain that there is a pronunciation that makes sense, but I can't tell what it is by just looking at the word.