OOTS #1141 - The Discussion Thread

[Gluteus_Maximus]

If the snarl were a 4th dimensional being, a shadow of its being would be in 3 dimensions, rather than 2 as the one where the shadowdancer ran into

[ThePhantasm]

As a philosophy researcher it does my heart good to see the word "quiddity" in a webcomic

[gerrymander]

Love the fact that Thor says "there's a new color in the crayon box." As a casual throw back to the crayon colored Snarl lesson.

"The problem is your world and all the other's but one..."
So does this mean the first world was created by the 4 colors? Is it still around or has it been destroyed?

What color would Banjo have it he was a real god?

That moment when you realize the OOTS metaphysical backstory is an extended RGB vs. CMYK joke.

If this whole thing wraps up by ascending Xykon into The Dark One's pantheon to make it sufficiently black to contain the Snarl... well, you heard it here first, kids.

(Banjo would be brought in to the Northern Gods pantheon, because Odin likes puppets.)

[Ruck]

Counter-nitpick, it's Frigg not Frigga. Edited all the same tough. Thanks.

Are they? That sounds unlikely, you can get every colour both subtractively and additively, can't you?

Well, I'm not a color expert, but looking at the RGB / CMYK wheels, I guess you can. Although I don't know how to get purple with natural light.

But the point remains that, to the extent the difference between violet and purple matters, The Dark One is canonically violet.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I can just see it now...

Durkon: Steady, we're no' here to fight. We're here tae... tae help.

Xykon: What, you're wanting to do the Antihero Shuffle? Sure, I've got some leather strap gear and white grease makeup for you guys...

Durkon: Redcloak, would ye shut yer skeleton up while th' adults talk? This is serious. Your plan, with the gates. It's our only chance. We're here tae see it through.

Xykon: ... so wait, I went from being the BBEG to being the minion? I don't think so...

Redcloak: Xykon? I have worked with you for how long now? I have taken every bio-joke imaginable. I did it because of this project. Not because I agreed with you philosophically or materialistically, but because I saw you as the only thing powerful enough to see this through. I did not, however, take into consideration that Law and Chaos are even more diametrically opposed than Good and Evil. So, here's the deal. I give you your phylactery back, and you go. I don't care where you go. Knock over some goody two-shoes kingdom and crown yourself a lich king or something. It'll be good for you. Don't? You and I both know how that is going to end. Three high-end clerics (with Hylga in the mix), one of whom who knows your every weakness because I'm the one who built them? Go. Now. We have work to do.

Xykon: And if I don't? Let's see... Epic level caster... versus non-epic level casters. I dunno, power curve says I'm ahead of this game. So please, tell me why I shouldn't crush you for your betrayal?

Redcloak: Because if we fail here, the universe as we know it is done. You can't take it over if you cease to be. Which you will. You, me, everyone, everything. There will no longer be a realm to destroy, and you will no longer be around to see it. This is god-killing tier stuff, this is as to epic magic what epic magic is to cantrips. So either you lose, and you cease to be, or you win, and you cease to be. Either way, the only wining move... is not to play. Give us a couple months, if you still feel cheesed off, come back and wipe us out. By that point either the universe has been wiped out and I won't be around to care, or I'll have succeeded and we can really see who the more powerful villain would have been.

Xykon: Meh, it'll take me that long to craft the epic spells I'd need anyway. Later meatbags. *poof*

Redcloak: Now then, you'd better be serious about this and not some petty attempt at splitting us up to defeat us in detail.

Durkon: Ne'er more serious. I may not like ye, I may stand against ev'rthin' you stand fer, but on this topic, we're all on th' same side. Because an' we don'? Like ye said, ev'rthin' gone, an' our petty squabbles will continue on, an' our one chance in countless times will have been lost to our petty, meaningless arguments. Truce, until we get this done. Then we go our own separate ways in peace. Next we meet? We may well be foes again. But fer now? We're on th' same team.

[Fyraltari]

Well, I'm not a color expert, but looking at the RGB / CMYK wheels, I guess you can. Although I don't know how to get purple with natural light.

It's just a wavelength (or rather a range of wavelenght). Just filter some white light and you're set.

[Grey Watcher]

As a philosophy researcher it does my heart good to see the word "quiddity" in a webcomic

Figures Rich would actually find a real word. I'd almost written it off as something made up, since he's using it to refer to something few mortals can even comprehend. Even nice to see Thor expound on the qualia of quiddity.

That moment when you realize the OOTS metaphysical backstory is an extended RGB vs. CMYK joke.

Heh, yeah, that's awesome.

I can just see it now...

Durkon: Steady, we're no' here to fight. We're here tae... tae help.

Xykon: What, you're wanting to do the Antihero Shuffle? Sure, I've got some leather strap gear and white grease makeup for you guys...

Durkon: Redcloak, would ye shut yer skeleton up while th' adults talk? This is serious. Your plan, with the gates. It's our only chance. We're here tae see it through.

Xykon: ... so wait, I went from being the BBEG to being the minion? I don't think so...

Redcloak: Xykon? I have worked with you for how long now? I have taken every bio-joke imaginable. I did it because of this project. Not because I agreed with you philosophically or materialistically, but because I saw you as the only thing powerful enough to see this through. I did not, however, take into consideration that Law and Chaos are even more diametrically opposed than Good and Evil. So, here's the deal. I give you your phylactery back, and you go. I don't care where you go. Knock over some goody two-shoes kingdom and crown yourself a lich king or something. It'll be good for you. Don't? You and I both know how that is going to end. Three high-end clerics (with Hylga in the mix), one of whom who knows your every weakness because I'm the one who built them? Go. Now. We have work to do.

Xykon: And if I don't? Let's see... Epic level caster... versus non-epic level casters. I dunno, power curve says I'm ahead of this game. So please, tell me why I shouldn't crush you for your betrayal?

Redcloak: Because if we fail here, the universe as we know it is done. You can't take it over if you cease to be. Which you will. You, me, everyone, everything. There will no longer be a realm to destroy, and you will no longer be around to see it. This is god-killing tier stuff, this is as to epic magic what epic magic is to cantrips. So either you lose, and you cease to be, or you win, and you cease to be. Either way, the only wining move... is not to play. Give us a couple months, if you still feel cheesed off, come back and wipe us out. By that point either the universe has been wiped out and I won't be around to care, or I'll have succeeded and we can really see who the more powerful villain would have been.

Xykon: Meh, it'll take me that long to craft the epic spells I'd need anyway. Later meatbags. *poof*

Redcloak: Now then, you'd better be serious about this and not some petty attempt at splitting us up to defeat us in detail.

Durkon: Ne'er more serious. I may not like ye, I may stand against ev'rthin' you stand fer, but on this topic, we're all on th' same side. Because an' we don'? Like ye said, ev'rthin' gone, an' our petty squabbles will continue on, an' our one chance in countless times will have been lost to our petty, meaningless arguments. Truce, until we get this done. Then we go our own separate ways in peace. Next we meet? We may well be foes again. But fer now? We're on th' same team.

Well, if we take Start of Darkness into account...

Spoiler

Show

Redcloak: ... or I'll have succeeded and we can really see who the more powerful villain would have been.

Monster in the Dark, with Hypnotized Swirly Eyes: Om-nom-nom-nom-nom-nom-nom-nom-nom!

Redcloak: AAAAAAAAAA---!

MITD: *gulp* *ptooie* (spits holy symbol onto floor)

Durkon:

Xykon: You were saying, fuzzface?

[KorvinStarmast]

Durkon: Ne'er more serious. I may not like ye, I may stand against ev'rthin' you stand fer, but on this topic, we're all on th' same side. Because an' we don'? Like ye said, ev'rthin' gone, an' our petty squabbles will continue on, an' our one chance in countless times will have been lost to our petty, meaningless arguments. Truce, until we get this done. Then we go our own separate ways in peace. Next we meet? We may well be foes again. But fer now? We're on th' same team.

nice work on that whole post. Somehow, I get the idea that Roy will be involved in the conversation.

[LibraryOgre]

So, what if a Northern God had a child with a Southern God?

[Sir_Norbert]

It's just a wavelength (or rather a range of wavelenght). Just filter some white light and you're set.

Violet is a range of wavelengths. Purple is not; there's no such thing as purple light. To make purple with lights, you have to mix red and blue.

[Fyraltari]

Hey I learned two things today!
The other is "quiddity".

[DomaDoma]

So, what if a Northern God had a child with a Southern God?

This is why Zeus was conveniently killed off. No one in the remaining pantheons is that kinky.

[ManuelSacha]

I started yelling "The Color Purple" half-way through the explanation.
The neighbours must think I'm really a huge Spielberg fan.

[Fyraltari]

This is why Zeus was conveniently killed off. No one in the remaining pantheons is that kinky.

To this day I still think that no even implying that Loki and Zeus totally boned is American Gods' greatest failure.

[Mandor]

So clearly, the North Gods (Yellow) and the Southern Gods (Blue) should um.... get busy.... and create some new Green offspring.
As clearly it seems the Southern Gods (Blue) and the Western Gods (Red) must have produced the Dark One (Purple).

[Worldsong]

Well, if we take Start of Darkness into account...

Spoiler

Show

Redcloak: ... or I'll have succeeded and we can really see who the more powerful villain would have been.

Monster in the Dark, with Hypnotized Swirly Eyes: Om-nom-nom-nom-nom-nom-nom-nom-nom!

Redcloak: AAAAAAAAAA---!

MITD: *gulp* *ptooie* (spits holy symbol onto floor)

Durkon:

Xykon: You were saying, fuzzface?

Spoiler

Show

I'm somewhat on the fence on that 'Enchanted to eat Redcloak' thing. I haven't read the book and I'm not disputing that it happened, but unless it was an Epic Enchantment (I'd be surprised if Xykon of all people has an Epic Enchantment when pretty much every single thing he does is necromantic or highly offensive) I'd expect a cleric capable of casting 9th level spells to be able to do something about it.

Hel, even if Redcloak can't do anything about it I wouldn't be surprised if MitD could.

EDIT: I still think that these theories that gods from different pantheons can form a new colour together run into the wall of mortals being formed from three different essences and just ending up as a complex composition.

Wouldn't two deities from different pantheons banging just result in some two-dimensional creature? Spirits or something?

[Grey Watcher]

It is my opinion that everything we are told about the Dark One's history in Start of Darkness is a lie.

I dunno, part of what I find fascinating is that it seems that the only lies are lies of omission, like leaving out that there were 156,123,723,152,345,813,563,491,587 worlds between the first one and the current one or that the Gates are, at best, delaying the (almost) inevitable rather than a true solution to the problem.

The times we've assumed they were lying explicitly (eg "There is no Snarl") have actually proven to be incorrect.

Don't get me wrong, I think even Odin, Marduk, and Dragon (and their respective co-quidditian gods of knowledge, secrets, etc.) are operating on incomplete information, but I'm liking watching the puzzle pieces fall into place without having to backtrack and say "sorry, this piece doesn't actually belong in here."

Spoiler

Show

I'm somewhat on the fence on that 'Enchanted to eat Redcloak' thing. I haven't read the book and I'm not disputing that it happened, but unless it was an Epic Enchantment (I'd be surprised if Xykon of all people has an Epic Enchantment when pretty much every single thing he does is necromantic or highly offensive) I'd expect a cleric capable of casting 9th level spells to be able to do something about it.

Hel, even if Redcloak can't do anything about it I wouldn't be surprised if MitD could.

Spoiler: Talking in Spoilers Is Fun! (Start of Darkness)

Show

The thing about Xykon is that, for as dumb as he is and as much as his preferred tactic is "blast it until it stops moving," he manages to pull out clever tricks often enough that I wouldn't put it past him to have picked up an enchantment spell or two (my memory is fuzzy on how harsh the limits on spells known for 3.5 Sorcerers is).

Plus, it seems really weird to set that up and not have it pay off at all. I think the... whatever spell it was exactly will indeed go off. And if it fails, it'll be because MITD beats it with the Power of Character Development, not merely Redcloak whipping out a Protection from Chekhov's Gun spell.

[MReav]

So, what if a Northern God had a child with a Southern God?

Depending on the gods, you might get Sleipnir.

[Kish]

Xykon's established epic spells are Superb Dispelling and Epic Mage Armor.

Neither of those is a damaging spell; one is as non-offensive as it gets.

[Sky Shadowing]

I think the reason the Dark One became a Pantheon of One when he ascended and the Elven Gods joined the Western Pantheon is because Elves were a PC race and they were subject to the divvying up of the souls- and because most Elves live in the West in their homelands on the other side of the mountains from the desert where Tarquin's up to no good, they naturally revered the Western gods before that.

Nobody claimed the Goblin souls. There was no afterlife for them. They were explicitly created for the purpose of the PC races killing for EXP. They live in the North with the Bugbears and (I think?) the green-skinned goblins. They lived in the South with the Hobgoblins. In order to keep the peace so that Loki or someone wouldn't get angry when a bunch of Southern worshippers (like, say, the Sapphire Guard) showed up and exterminated them, the unclaiming of them was a compromise. And possibly when the Dark One showed up they deliberately kept him out so they could keep killing goblins without angering the other Pantheons.

So the Dark One ascended, and wasn't invited in to any pantheon, or wasn't capable of joining them. He became his own. And in a way... I think the Goblins already have what Redcloak wants. They have an even footing. I suspect Redcloak might even be a PC.

[Telcontar]

Rich continues to astound me without his worldbuilding. Amazing stuff.

I imagine it's already been mentioned somewhere in the thread, but before I got to the end of the strip I thought this meant the Order were on their way to Apotheosis somehow - become gods of a seperate pantheon themselves. I was thinking how Roy's sword manifests as a green energy. Maybe they can make the next world out of five colors?

[NeoVid]

Hell. Yes. Linked metaplots at long last, and in one of the greatest ways possible. The god of goblins being the key to saving existence...

Here's hoping Redcloak learns about that before too long.

[Peelee]

I think the reason the Dark One became a Pantheon of One when he ascended and the Elven Gods joined the Western Pantheon is because Elves were a PC race

Ten gold says that's wrong.

[Rakaydos]

So, if the Snarl is the beginnings of a different world, and has a special god-color no one in this world has seen before, does that mean the Order of the Stick will be fighting The Colour Out of Space?

(Someone may have made this joke already, and if so I apologize. I didn't have time to scan the whole thread).

Its more than that... it's not enough to make a 4-color world, to beat the snarl you need 4-color heros. (the colors even match!)

So inevitably the problem will be solved by punching a representation of abstract frustration in the face.

[Riarra]

Well, if we take Start of Darkness into account...

Spoiler

Show

Redcloak: ... or I'll have succeeded and we can really see who the more powerful villain would have been.

Monster in the Dark, with Hypnotized Swirly Eyes: Om-nom-nom-nom-nom-nom-nom-nom-nom!

Redcloak: AAAAAAAAAA---!

MITD: *gulp* *ptooie* (spits holy symbol onto floor)

Durkon:

Xykon: You were saying, fuzzface?

Spoiler

Show

I'm somewhat on the fence on that 'Enchanted to eat Redcloak' thing. I haven't read the book and I'm not disputing that it happened, but unless it was an Epic Enchantment (I'd be surprised if Xykon of all people has an Epic Enchantment when pretty much every single thing he does is necromantic or highly offensive) I'd expect a cleric capable of casting 9th level spells to be able to do something about it.

Hel, even if Redcloak can't do anything about it I wouldn't be surprised if MitD could.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

I'm hoping it goes something like "MitD purposely interprets the order as 'swallow Redcloak whole without chewing' so he can use Word of Recall to escape."

[Rrmcklin]

I can just see it now...

Durkon: Steady, we're no' here to fight. We're here tae... tae help.

Xykon: What, you're wanting to do the Antihero Shuffle? Sure, I've got some leather strap gear and white grease makeup for you guys...

Durkon: Redcloak, would ye shut yer skeleton up while th' adults talk? This is serious. Your plan, with the gates. It's our only chance. We're here tae see it through.

Xykon: ... so wait, I went from being the BBEG to being the minion? I don't think so...

Redcloak: Xykon? I have worked with you for how long now? I have taken every bio-joke imaginable. I did it because of this project. Not because I agreed with you philosophically or materialistically, but because I saw you as the only thing powerful enough to see this through. I did not, however, take into consideration that Law and Chaos are even more diametrically opposed than Good and Evil. So, here's the deal. I give you your phylactery back, and you go. I don't care where you go. Knock over some goody two-shoes kingdom and crown yourself a lich king or something. It'll be good for you. Don't? You and I both know how that is going to end. Three high-end clerics (with Hylga in the mix), one of whom who knows your every weakness because I'm the one who built them? Go. Now. We have work to do.

Xykon: And if I don't? Let's see... Epic level caster... versus non-epic level casters. I dunno, power curve says I'm ahead of this game. So please, tell me why I shouldn't crush you for your betrayal?

Redcloak: Because if we fail here, the universe as we know it is done. You can't take it over if you cease to be. Which you will. You, me, everyone, everything. There will no longer be a realm to destroy, and you will no longer be around to see it. This is god-killing tier stuff, this is as to epic magic what epic magic is to cantrips. So either you lose, and you cease to be, or you win, and you cease to be. Either way, the only wining move... is not to play. Give us a couple months, if you still feel cheesed off, come back and wipe us out. By that point either the universe has been wiped out and I won't be around to care, or I'll have succeeded and we can really see who the more powerful villain would have been.

Xykon: Meh, it'll take me that long to craft the epic spells I'd need anyway. Later meatbags. *poof*

Redcloak: Now then, you'd better be serious about this and not some petty attempt at splitting us up to defeat us in detail.

Durkon: Ne'er more serious. I may not like ye, I may stand against ev'rthin' you stand fer, but on this topic, we're all on th' same side. Because an' we don'? Like ye said, ev'rthin' gone, an' our petty squabbles will continue on, an' our one chance in countless times will have been lost to our petty, meaningless arguments. Truce, until we get this done. Then we go our own separate ways in peace. Next we meet? We may well be foes again. But fer now? We're on th' same team.

Any scenario that removes Xykon from the final conflict is not a scenario that has a chance of playing out. Because Xykon, not the Snarl or Redcloak, is the main villain of the story.

[Jasdoif]

Ten gold says that's wrong.

Did you give up on the quatloo tracking thread idea?

[briantmeyer]

The primaries are red, yellow and blue of course, this is really the result of science.

But a long time ago, painters used to also think green was a primary color as well, so the painters primaries are red, yellow, blue and green. Though not accurate it works when your medium is paint, especially with historical pigments which were more limited. A good reference for this is handprint.com, which for watercolorists is a proven technical reference. ( There is a lot of color theory there, you can google it, I have not posted enough to post the direct link.)

So if this new color is black (and not purple), Cyan, Yellow and Magenta, we have the printers primaries.

[CantRecoverOld]

Ever since I started reading the strip, around 400, I have wanted Redcloak to be right: goblins deserve equal rights. When they raised the flag of Gobbotopia, I felt this even more strongly.

I love that QCD has been used as a plot element. Too cool.

I’m going to make some guesses.

The Dark One is the first God of the Goblin realm, but I bet he dies in a fight with the other Gods when he first starts to exert his power. Redcloak will then ascend to become the primary God of the Goblin realm. In order to keep everyone happy as Redcloak creates his new Pantheon, Elan will be made a founding God as well. He will be a compromise candidate. He did the least damage to Goblins while OOTS was in Azure city. Haley, as his partner (the two Chaotics would never do something so Lawful as to have a wedding ceremony), will also be made a divine being.

The OOTS will have to not just work with Redcloak in the here and now, but with Xykon as well. Xykon’s plans coming to fruition are good for Thor, OOTS and Redcloak. That will be hilarious when Roy has to fight off the attempts by Hel and Vampire Durkon (in another body), the Exarch and the others to kill Xykon. And Xykon can’t know WHY he is getting all the help, of course.

As soon as the Ceremony is performed, Xykon becomes superfluous. He does not want to go to the Planes. Once he realizes he has been duped, I’m not sure if he gets angry and strikes out at all those who betrayed him, or if he just exits stage right and seeks to keep on “living” and being an awesome undead. I predict he is made a God in the Goblin Pantheon where he is living a divine life in the Chaotic Evil corner of the Goblinoid Realm. He will have some quote about it being better to serve in Hell…

[linkhyrule5]

Something that I haven't seen mentioned is...

... wasn't the original pantheon four color?

And the original world, also four color?

True, the original world wasn't made specifically to be a prison for an entity that didn't exist yet, but even so, this seems more like a "we are finally back at the starting line" rather than "we actually have a chance of winning."