Help me start a Goblin Kingdom

[the_brazenburn]

In my campaign, I'm playing a goblin rights activist, who's been going around trying to convince goblins that they need to stand up against the two-pronged assault of racial prejudice by humans and elves, and cultural slavery by hobgoblins and bugbears. So far I've had some luck, and I've started a goblin kingdom just south of the Ardeep Forest (it's an FR game). I'm not totally familiar with the setting beyond the maps I've looked at, and I'm wondering how you would try to expand it into a real diplomatic force along the Sword Coast, tactically speaking.

Currently we have a tenuous treaty with Goldenfields, in which they provide us with a certain amount of food each month and we give them a small cut of our taxes and raiding loot.

Thanks very much!

[KorvinStarmast]

In my campaign, I'm playing a goblin rights activist, who's been going around trying to convince goblins that they need to stand up against the two-pronged assault of racial prejudice by humans and elves, and cultural slavery by hobgoblins and bugbears. So far I've had some luck, and I've started a goblin kingdom just south of the Ardeep Forest (it's an FR game). I'm not totally familiar with the setting beyond the maps I've looked at, and I'm wondering how you would try to expand it into a real diplomatic force along the Sword Coast, tactically speaking.

First, find an artifact that connects you to your Goblin Deity. (Red is the preferred color).
Second: ally with a lich.
Third: take over a city from some samurai.
Fourth: Profit.

--------------

On a more serious note, you need to raid some dwarven and human settlements and take captives. If you are going to build a city, you need some people who know what the heck they are doing, and who are good with stone.

Secondly, find a few stone giants and work out a deal for you to do something for them to get them to help you with construction.

[Callak_Remier]

A goblin city would look more like squatters in a castle.

[the_brazenburn]

A goblin city would look more like squatters in a castle.

Yes.

That's what I'm trying to change.

We currently are sort of squatting in an abandoned town, but we've found the former residents and told them that they can come back whenever they want as long as they accept us as their rulers and pay their taxes.

[Unoriginal]

In my campaign, I'm playing a goblin rights activist, who's been going around trying to convince goblins that they need to stand up against the two-pronged assault of racial prejudice by humans and elves, and cultural slavery by hobgoblins and bugbears. So far I've had some luck, and I've started a goblin kingdom just south of the Ardeep Forest (it's an FR game). I'm not totally familiar with the setting beyond the maps I've looked at, and I'm wondering how you would try to expand it into a real diplomatic force along the Sword Coast, tactically speaking.

Thanks very much!

FR goblins are not victim of a "two-pronged assault of racial prejudice by human and elves".

If you want to establish a kingdom, it's simple: get land legitimately, establish a keep, form trade relationship with the nearby communities (as FR humans do with goblins when the latter are not robbing the former), then join the Lord's Alliance to get legitimacy in the eyes of most nations.

Of course pretty much all goblins will try to kill you to get more power.

Also you're in for a very, very, very nasty afterlife when the goblinoid god get you and make you pay for trying to threaten the hobgoblin supremacy. Unless you do something about it beforehand.

[Zanthy1]

I would shy away from raiding and looting, as that doesn't make you a kingdom, merely goblin brigand group. If you want this kingdom to not only be taken seriously but also successful, I would instead send emissaries to nearby kingdoms asking for artisans and craftsman who specifically focus on construction, and either offer the workers payment or the kingdom lending the workers payment. Have these craftsman teach your goblins how to design and build, and also have some of your goblins study abroad in other cities to learn more.

If you resort to the racially biased means of looting, then the world will treat you just like a large goblin band, and send adventurers or armies to quell you. To be a kingdom, act like a kingdom. Provide for your people, and if necessary create alliances to help become more self-sufficient. Offer citizenship to all immigrants (at least for the first couple years) to help establish a city culture and diversify your production. Don't forget taxes for public works and a standing army.

[the_brazenburn]

FR goblins are not victim of a "two-pronged assault of racial prejudice by human and elves".

OOC, yes I know. IC, my character is a good-aligned goblin who's experience prejudice (or what he perceived as prejudice) from humans. He's naive enough to think that all goblins are the same, and he wants to try and change goblin culture to be less evil.

If you want to establish a kingdom, it's simple: get land legitimately, establish a keep, form trade relationship with the nearby communities (as FR humans do with goblins when the latter are not robbing the former), then join the Lord's Alliance to get legitimacy in the eyes of most nations.

Fair enough. That was my basic plan, except I wasn't sure which communities would be willing to ally with goblin squatters, and it's pretty tough to acquire land legitimately, since pretty much everything that isn't already taken is monster-infested or completely remote.

Of course pretty much all goblins will try to kill you to get more power.

Also true. I'm hoping to use religion and bribes to keep the masses down.

Also you're in for a very, very, very nasty afterlife when the goblinoid god get you and make you pay for trying to threaten the hobgoblin supremacy. Unless you do something about it beforehand.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't FR gods get their power from their worshippers? If so, couldn't I start my own good-aligned church with a new, more tolerant god?

[hamishspence]

Also you're in for a very, very, very nasty afterlife when the goblinoid god get you and make you pay for trying to threaten the hobgoblin supremacy. Unless you do something about it beforehand.

Obould didn't get a "nasty afterlife" from Grummsh for making peace with humans. He got promoted to demigod when he died.

That might be a good gauge of how successful you need to be for "racial gods" (if you remain loyal to them and don't take a new patron) to reward you instead of punish you.

[Maxilian]

Fair enough. That was my basic plan, except I wasn't sure which communities would be willing to ally with goblin squatters, and it's pretty tough to acquire land legitimately, since pretty much everything that isn't already taken is monster-infested or completely remote.

That means that you need to clean up one of those monsters infected zones, swamps are a great place to start!.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't FR gods get their power from their worshippers? If so, couldn't I start my own good-aligned church with a new, more tolerant god?

The Frog people (Kuatoa) are quite stupid and easy to make them worship... well... anything, and their believes have even created new gods, so you could go around swamps, enslave all those things, make them worship you as a god and maybe get some kind of god-hood

[the_brazenburn]

Came up with a draft for a deity that I can use to control my kingdom.

Shaargrik, the Black Goat

Shaargrik is the goblin deity of mischief and cunning. His worshipers perform arcane rituals that involve bonfires and the sacrifice of goats, who are believed to, in their dying moments, become an aspect of the god himself, who will send messages to those who consume the goat's blood and flesh. When he appears on the Material Plane, which occurs only on his holy days, the 30th of April and 31st of October, he takes the form of a twenty-foot tall goblin covered in black hair, with the head of a goat and intelligent black eyes. Although Shaargrik favors goblins, he is tolerant of other races and religions, and usually attempts to turn his followers away from the rigid caste system that is traditional in goblin society. His clerics are mostly chaotic in alignment, with no particular preference towards good or evil. Their favored weapon is the warhammer, and his Domains are Trickery and War.

[Unoriginal]

OOC, yes I know. IC, my character is a good-aligned goblin who's experience prejudice (or what he perceived as prejudice) from humans. He's naive enough to think that all goblins are the same, and he wants to try and change goblin culture to be less evil.

Well, I certainly can respect that, but remember that naive guys don't really make great rulers.

Fair enough. That was my basic plan, except I wasn't sure which communities would be willing to ally with goblin squatters, and it's pretty tough to acquire land legitimately, since pretty much everything that isn't already taken is monster-infested or completely remote.

To whom belong to the town you conquered?

Otherwise, as was said before, clearing a monster-filled place and claiming it is legitimate.

Also true. I'm hoping to use religion and bribes to keep the masses down.

Add a calculated amount of violence and coercion when people challenge your rule and you have a winning recipe.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't FR gods get their power from their worshipers? If so, couldn't I start my own good-aligned church with a new, more tolerant god?

Well, they get their power from their worshipers, but most of the deities have hundreds of worlds with their worshipers on them.

Even with 0 worshipers, demigods, titans and vestiges can pack a nasty punch.

If you change religion and convince the goblins to do the same (which will not be easy), you'll escape most of the issues.

Obould didn't get a "nasty afterlife" from Grummsh for making peace with humans. He got promoted to demigod when he died.

That might be a good gauge of how successful you need to be for "racial gods" (if you remain loyal to them and don't take a new patron) to reward you instead of punish you.

the issue is not making peace with the humans, it's refusing the hobgoblin domination.

Came up with a draft for a deity that I can use to control my kingdom.

Shaargrik, the Black Goat

Shaargrik is the goblin deity of mischief and cunning. His worshipers perform arcane rituals that involve bonfires and the sacrifice of goats, who are believed to, in their dying moments, become an aspect of the god himself, who will send messages to those who consume the goat's blood and flesh. When he appears on the Material Plane, which occurs only on his holy days, the 30th of April and 31st of October, he takes the form of a twenty-foot tall goblin covered in black hair, with the head of a goat and intelligent black eyes. Although Shaargrik favors goblins, he is tolerant of other races and religions, and usually attempts to turn his followers away from the rigid caste system that is traditional in goblin society. His clerics are mostly chaotic in alignment, with no particular preference towards good or evil. Their favored weapon is the warhammer, and his Domains are Trickery and War.

How are you going to trick people into believing this goat-guy is actually a god?

Or do you plan in finding a petty god which fit the bill, like the Trickster Gods of Chult?

[the_brazenburn]

To whom belong to the town you conquered?

Otherwise, as was said before, clearing a monster-filled place and claiming it is legitimate.

It was formerly controlled by a bunch of humans ruled by a mayor. The mayor is dead (not related to our occupation) and there's no clear successor. Since I was the one who led the rebellion that killed the previous goblin chief and then freed the citizens (they were his prisoners), I'm hoping they won't put up much of a fight.

Add a calculated amount of violence and coercion when people challenge your rule and you have a winning recipe.

Well, that goes without saying.

How are you going to trick people into believing this goat-guy is actually a god?

Or do you plan in finding a petty god which fit the bill, like the Trickster Gods of Chult?

Probably finding a minor demigod or archfey that's willing to show up a few times a year and preach tolerance in exchange for being called a god. Maybe I'll find a loyal lieutenant to take a few warlock levels and become the High Priest (strictly under my control, or course.)

[Ninja_Prawn]

If your kingdom is going to thrive, you'll need a sound economic policy. You mention that you're collecting taxes from your goblin subjects - where are they getting their gold from? If it's from theft and raiding, well, that's not a sustainable long term industry for a small city-state seeking legitimacy.

I wouldn't look to your goblins for entrepreneurship (or any kind of professional skills. Or basic literacy and numeracy), especially if they're being 'played' by the DM. It needs to be you that gives people a reason to join your kingdom. That is to say, productive industries for them to work in. Does the land you've settled have any natural resources? If it was a human town, its likely to come with some arable land, so that might be a good place to start. If necessary, recruit some humans to teach your goblins how to farm.

And if your goblins are going to own the food they produce, how are they going to convert it into gold for taxes? Will they take it to a nearby market, or do you need to set up your own? Will they need a wagonwright, woodcutters, blacksmith, tanner, etc. to support their farming activities - and do you need to take action to develop those industries? I don't think a bunch of goblins are going to sort all that out on their own.

If you start up a new religion, who is going to preach it? How do they feed themselves? Who's going to build a temple? Can you fund all this yourself, or do you need to attract outside investment?

I feel like there are a lot of unanswered questions here...

[Unoriginal]

And if your goblins are going to own the food they produce, how are they going to convert it into gold for taxes?

Ehm, there is no need to do that? The lords accepted taxes in goods and services all the time.

[Zanthy1]

Ehm, there is no need to do that? The lords accepted taxes in goods and services all the time.

"For this month's taxes you must perform manual labor to help build the walls around our city once a week."

They can work on the wall (or other public works projects) and get compensated with pay or whatever, but at least 1 day a week is unpaid as part of their taxes.

[the_brazenburn]

If your kingdom is going to thrive, you'll need a sound economic policy. You mention that you're collecting taxes from your goblin subjects - where are they getting their gold from? If it's from theft and raiding, well, that's not a sustainable long term industry for a small city-state seeking legitimacy.

I wouldn't look to your goblins for entrepreneurship (or any kind of professional skills. Or basic literacy and numeracy), especially if they're being 'played' by the DM. It needs to be you that gives people a reason to join your kingdom. That is to say, productive industries for them to work in. Does the land you've settled have any natural resources? If it was a human town, its likely to come with some arable land, so that might be a good place to start. If necessary, recruit some humans to teach your goblins how to farm.

And if your goblins are going to own the food they produce, how are they going to convert it into gold for taxes? Will they take it to a nearby market, or do you need to set up your own? Will they need a wagonwright, woodcutters, blacksmith, tanner, etc. to support their farming activities - and do you need to take action to develop those industries? I don't think a bunch of goblins are going to sort all that out on their own.

If you start up a new religion, who is going to preach it? How do they feed themselves? Who's going to build a temple? Can you fund all this yourself, or do you need to attract outside investment?

I feel like there are a lot of unanswered questions here...

Main commerce of the area:

Tourism: The town of Nightstone is a popular base for Waterdhavian nobles, many of whom vacation near the Ardeep Forest. Goblins that know the forest could serve as guides on hunting expeditions, or to staff hotels.

Trade: Situated perfectly between the Dessarin River and the coastal road, Gobzreikh is in a great position to exchange goods from inland to the western cities. Goblins can run market stalls, sail barges up the river to collect materials, and count the profits.

Mercenaries: A large standing military? Check. Soldiers without many qualms? Check. Constant skirmishing in the region? Check.

Agriculture: There is a fair amount of arable land nearby. Goblins will probably be best at herding livestock and fermenting beverages, including svinblut, a goblin liqueur distilled from the blood of honey-fed pigs.

Other: Hunting, lumber, and manufacturing are all possibilities as well.

[Newtonsolo313]

"For this month's taxes you must perform manual labor to help build the walls around our city once a week."

They can work on the wall (or other public works projects) and get compensated with pay or whatever, but at least 1 day a week is unpaid as part of their taxes.

usually it was more half of the potato’s you didn’t need to feed your family

[Unoriginal]

usually it was more half of the potato’s you didn’t need to feed your family

"Having to work on the lord's personal lands for X days" was a standard duty-tax. Generally for farmers who rented a parcel of the lord's lands.

[Laserlight]

It was formerly controlled by a bunch of humans ruled by a mayor. The mayor is dead (not related to our occupation) and there's no clear successor.

I'm pretty sure the Lords Alliance will want to install their own pick, unless you come up with a convincing bribe argument as to why you would be a good candidate. I also expect that "staying in town to run things" will not help you advance the main story line.

As it happens, when we ran SKT, our psychotic sorcerer unilaterally declared herself the new town ruler. Then a bandit gang arrived and she tried to co-opt them. It was entertaining, in a "watching a train wreck" sort of way.

[the_brazenburn]

I'm pretty sure the Lords Alliance will want to install their own pick, unless you come up with a convincing bribe argument as to why you would be a good candidate. I also expect that "staying in town to run things" will not help you advance the main story line.

Would an alliance with the Zhentarim be enough? We might feasibly get one if we open up trade along the Dessarin River.

Even if the LA send somebody to be the mayor, I'm guessing they won't want to tramp through miles of goblin-controlled wilderness just to try and get to a walled city on an island in the middle of the river with attached keep, which is also manned by goblins. If they do elect somebody, I'd guess they just become a ruler in name only. I really don't care about that.

I wouldn't want to be mayor myself. I'd appoint a (loyal) underling "Chief of Nightstone", as a direct subordinate to me, the king of the entire kingdom.

[GlenSmash!]

A Kingdom? That will just stamp on the rights of Goblins as much as anything else.

What you need is an anarcho-syndicalist commune.

[KorvinStarmast]

Would an alliance with the Zhentarim be enough?

PT Barnum had an expression to cover that situation.

Even if the LA send somebody to be the mayor, I'm guessing they won't want to tramp through miles of goblin-controlled wilderness just to try and get to a walled city on an island in the middle of the river with attached keep, which is also manned by goblins. If they do elect somebody, I'd guess they just become a ruler in name only. I really don't care about that.

That depends on how your DM runs the Lords Alliance. That faction has pretty deep pockets.

[Unoriginal]

Would an alliance with the Zhentarim be enough?

It's like saying "a college degree? Can't I get in debt with the mafia instead?"

You said you wanted to play a good guy, too. Manipulating people with a fake religion is already stretching that.

[the_brazenburn]

PT Barnum had an expression to cover that situation.

It's like saying "a college degree? Can't I get in debt with the mafia instead?"
You said you wanted to play a good guy, too. Manipulating people with a fake religion is already stretching that.

I didn't actually mean that I'd use an alliance with the Black Network instead of one with the Lord's Alliance. I meant that the Zhents might have enough influence to sway some of the LA delegates to support my people as Nightstone rulers.

[KorvinStarmast]

I didn't actually mean that I'd use an alliance with the Black Network instead of one with the Lord's Alliance. I meant that the Zhents might have enough influence to sway some of the LA delegates to support my people as Nightstone rulers.

Looks like an opportunity for some neat role play, and interaction with the FR factions if the DM in your campaign likes to do that kind of stuff.

[Millface]

Sorry for all the people trying to tell you why this won't work. I, personally, love this idea. I love any ideas my players have that could "change the world", so to speak. Adventurers around levels 7+ and especially 11+ are great for making drastic change, and starting a town is one of those things. I've had players do it, they could afford it, they had the people. Vampires, no less, and a group of refugee humans. They were creative, they made it work, and it's changed the way my FR runs. If vampires can have a kingdom and trade in the open, so can goblins.

Here's how they did it:

Spoiler: Background

Show

It all started with a Keep that was granted through the Deck of Many Things. In this keep was a powerful Vampire NPC named Balthor from an old, old campaign we ran. That Vampire had the Sword of Kas, and having the sword and this keep granted him dominion over all vampires. The party was level 14 ish, and they managed to storm the keep and actually kill the vampire. A unique property of the keep was that if someone slept in Balthor's bed they would be granted Vampirism. I gave the party this choice, two of them took it. (largely neutral party, they were collecting power in any form they could in order to stop a larger threat, morality was largely out the window at this point, the world was at risk). Once the one who had taken the Sword of Kas became a Vampire and owned the keep, she technically gained dominion over vampires. That's where the town started.

Spoiler: The Steps They Took

Show

1. They struck up an agreement with the vampires, enforced by an elite group led by one of the PCs. If any vampires broke this treaty, they would be hunted with surgical precision and eliminated. The vampires got land, positions on the ruling council, and all the blood they could drink. The humans got to be free of being hunted, and were able to elect an equal number of individuals for the ruling council, and an improved living environment (eventually) as the party dumped their significant wealth into building this town around the keep from the ground up. The only catch was that the humans had to volunteer to donate blood bi-weekly.
2. The PCs started calling in favors from those factions that they had helped in the past. They managed a group of engineers from a gnomish settlement that they'd helped, artisans from Citadel Felbar, bankers and scribes from Waterdeep and Luskan, and manpower in the form of a few smaller villages they'd helped early on who wanted to start a new life. They promised them new opportunities, a better life, and more importantly, wealth beyond their wildest dreams.
3. They set everyone to work. The specialists began to make up plans and train the humans who had smaller skillsets, they used their manpower to clear the surrounding woods for lumber and to generate farm land and build roads. They made this place a waystation for those traveling from Calimport to the northern Sword Coast for trade at first. Every now and then, they'd get new recruits from those that traveled through and saw their chance to be a part of something new and possibly huge and profitable.
4. They named a general and started training a number of their humans in combat. They put together an elite strike team of vampires and set up a protected perimeter around the area. Soon, they'd managed to wrangle some wizards from Silverymoon and Luskan with the help of one of the PCs who was a mage that tutored under the Archmage of Silverymoon. It wasn't long before trade started, they used their connections with both Dwarves and Wizards to start bringing in weapons and armor and enchanting them to resell for profit.
5. They named a King, who was an NPC that they'd worked closely with in the recent past that they trusted and who was a good man. The kind ruled by vote of the council. With the kingdom well underway, the PCs moved on and continued their adventure to completion.

The gist of it is that a Kingdom needs certain things to start and to flourish. Those things are:

1. Manpower (or goblinpower)
2. Know-how (experts, artisans, politicians, etc...)
3. Goods or services that surrounding kingdoms will want to get their hands on
4. The defenses to make sure that those kingdoms will have to get those goods or services through trade, rather than force
5. Funding. This part is far easier for an adventuring party. In many ways, there is no profession on Faerun that pays as well as adventuring. 100 GP is a fortune to a commoner, and likely a pittance to you. If you have down time in your campaign and some wits about you, generating income from the few thousand gold your party should have by that point is painfully easy. You get some things started to give you cashflow that supplements your adventuring money, which will at first far exceed any downtime revenue, but over time you can build a great deal of capital and assets that make money for you while you're out and about.

Secure those 5 things, take any tips you liked from what my party did, and you should have no trouble at all building a goblin kingdom. Just make sure that you stress steps 4 and 5 enough. As a generally hated race, the first inclination of neighboring kingdoms will be to take things from you, rather than set up relations. You need to have the standing army to make them think twice about that. Money can straight up buy you that army. You'll spend alot of money before you start to see real progress, so step 5 is very important. This isn't going to be cheap. Most of all, have fun! This is one of my favorite things about D&D!

[Maxilian]

A Kingdom? That will just stamp on the rights of Goblins as much as anything else.

What you need is an anarcho-syndicalist commune.

Well if every ones right is trampled, then equality is archived

[GlenSmash!]

Well if every ones right is trampled, then equality is archived

[Ninja_Prawn]

Ehm, there is no need to do that?

Well it seemed like the OP was counting on being able to take their taxes in gold, since they were planning to use that income to buy things the goblins can't make themselves on the 'international markets'. If that's not the case, they yes, there would be no particular need to establish a market.

Though if we go with that proposal to export goblin mercenaries as a main plank of the goblin economy, I could see it making a lot of sense to accept taxes in food from anyone who's not serving in the mercenary company. An army marches on its stomach!

[Moredhel24]

A Kingdom? That will just stamp on the rights of Goblins as much as anything else.

What you need is an anarcho-syndicalist commune.

So something like the Ferengi Alliance?