OOTS #1147 - The Discussion Thread

[hamishspence]

She likes smiting bad guys, and recognizes that helping the helpless is something that she should be doing even if she would rather be doing something else.

A good example of Miko getting her priorities right (possibly for the last time):

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html

when she chooses "Go warn Azure City" over "Go back and fight the Monster".

As the Giant said of that arc - it was to show that Miko was a functional paladin most of her adult life despite her flaws - even if she faltered at the end.

[Lacuna Caster]

Note that she never actually sees the assassins - so it's never a case of "choosing between chasing assassins and saving innocents"

Excuse me, but did she ever see the Ogres before deciding to smite them? And didn't she previously make it clear to Roy exactly what the chain of command here was? She could have ordered Elan and Durkon to go search the building and gone to hunt down evildoers at any time, and yet she doesn't. Why are you so invested in giving anyone-beside-miko credit for her own actions?

...but at the same time as a paladin her priorities are off kilter, which is why she ends up going down the path she does.

Again, I don't see evidence that her priorities were off-kilter, at least by the standards of the strip and other canonically Good characters at the time.
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[Potatopeelerkin]

Spoiler: Here be GDGU spoilers

Show

I'm not saying O-Chul's motives were selfish. Entering dangerous enemy territory in the first place is not a course of action that will maximise your personal safety and well-being. And sure, O-Chul never explicitly says "two source of intel are better than one", but when Miko, for example, went to rescue the dirt farmers there were no shortage of readers happy to assume that her sole motivation was exterminating ogres.

You're kind of doing the same thing right now by floating "Miko may only be doing X because it's standard paladin conduct." Does someone hold a gun to her head and force her to be a paladin?

The book very explicitly goes over what O-Chul's motivations were in saving the second hobgoblin and why he wants to help the hobgoblins. To assume that he did for other reasons would be ignoring a huge part of the book and the intention of why it was written.

Hell, Hinjo and O-Chul have a discussion about the Supreme Leader who believes that Hinjo and O-Chul could not possibly be motivated by anything other than self-interest. It's all but outright stated that the Supreme Leader's assessment of their motivation is wrong.

I do disagree with any readers who say she just wanted to kill ogres. What I think is more likely is that Miko doesn't want to be wrong. Being a paladin and following a paladin code would immediately, in her eyes, put her in the right. It means you can be 'good' without having to go through the trouble of questioning yourself or helping people you dislike. If you're a paladin, you're justified and always correct- and the prospect of knowing you're always right and having a cape to prove it is very tempting.

No one's forced to be a paladin, but you can still do it for partially selfish reasons.

I don't think she doesn't care about the people she's rescuing, though. That's a possibility, but I don't think it's correct. But I do think she doesn't care about people she has a reason to dislike- and that's what separates Miko from O-Chul. O-Chul's willing to help enemies, too. Miko meets the requirements for being a paladin, while O-Chul goes beyond them.

So, why am I assuming the worst of Miko and the best of O-Chul? It's difficult to assume anything but the best of O-Chul because that part's more or less set in stone by GDGU. Miko is harder, because the comic isn't clear. We don't know for sure what her motivation is.

But since the comic treats her like her motivation is different, I think we should assume her motivation is different. If there's an assumption which fills a hole in the story, better to take it than one that doesn't.

I still don't think she's a bad person, though.

Yeah, but that's still responding to backtalk from Roy.

What did Roy say that disagreed with her?

Well, regardless, my point about her never admitting when she's in the wrong (which is what sets O-Chul apart) still stands. That particular strip isn't a good example because no one's really in the wrong there (except Belkar).

[hamishspence]

didn't she previously make it clear to Roy exactly what the chain of command here was? She could have ordered Elan and Durkon to go search the building and gone to hunt down evildoers at any time, and yet she doesn't.

If she'd said in response to Durkon's "We have to get the innocents out" :

"No, we don't. YOU have to get the innocents out. I have to hunt down those evildoers" -

I think it's safe to say she'd have been even more hated back then, than she already was.

"Following advice" isn't a breach of the "chain of command"

as a paladin her priorities are off kilter, which is why she ends up going down the path she does.

I don't see evidence that her priorities were off-kilter, at least by the standards of the strip and other canonically Good characters at the time.

The stuff about how the Order "will taste my blades"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0174.html

after she'd promised to bring them back for trial if possible, and before she's met them:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html

is a good indication of priorities having drifted off-kilter.

"Falling" doesn't come out of nowhere, after all. There's normally indications that the paladin was heading in the direction of a Fall some time before it happens.

As The Giant said in War & XPs

"This was the culmination of years of behaviour."

[Lacuna Caster]

Spoiler: Here be GDGU spoilers

Show

So, why am I assuming the worst of Miko and the best of O-Chul? It's difficult to assume anything but the best of O-Chul because that part's more or less set in stone by GDGU. Miko is harder, because the comic isn't clear. We don't know for sure what her motivation is.

But since the comic treats her like her motivation is different, I think we should assume her motivation is different.

Okay, fine. I would personally incline to see it as shifting of goal-posts on the part of the readership and/or the author. But hey, it's easy to win the argument when you get to invent your own facts.

Well, regardless, my point about her never admitting when she's in the wrong (which is what sets O-Chul apart) still stands...

This is literally the first thing she does after her first combat with the Order. It's not exactly a grovelling apology, but it's not exactly confirmation bias at work.

The stuff about how the Order "will taste my blades"...

Hamish, we've been over this. Shojo's ostensible plan is such a tangle of nonsense that I'm not going to give this portion of narrative much credit for holding together.

[Peelee]

This is literally the first thing she does after her first combat with the Order. It's not exactly a grovelling apology, but it's not exactly confirmation bias at work.

I disagree; she doesn't admit she was wrong, she admits that she was tricked. Which she was very consistent about.

Did she ever even apologize to Roy the honorless dog for nearly killing him because he had a crown?

[Lacuna Caster]

No, but she does thank Durkon for correcting her misconception. How many people are actively grateful for being shown to be mistaken?

[hamishspence]

Shojo's ostensible plan is such a tangle of nonsense that I'm not going to give this portion of narrative much credit for holding together.

I blame Eugene for the nonsensical elements of Shojo's plan. He wanted to pull the "Vengeance on the guilty!" prank on Roy:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0267.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0291.html


and he talked Shojo into the whole thing. It bears Eugene's "signature" more than Shojo's.

[Keltest]

Excuse me, but did she ever see the Ogres before deciding to smite them? And didn't she previously make it clear to Roy exactly what the chain of command here was? She could have ordered Elan and Durkon to go search the building and gone to hunt down evildoers at any time, and yet she doesn't. Why are you so invested in giving anyone-beside-miko credit for her own actions?


Again, I don't see evidence that her priorities were off-kilter, at least by the standards of the strip and other canonically Good characters at the time.
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You mean besides the fact that violence being her preferred problem solving method led directly to her murdering her innocent liege lord in cold blood on a glorified hunch? Because im pretty sure that happened.

[Potatopeelerkin]

-snipped at Lacuna's request-

I'm not trying to win an argument, I'm just trying to read the story in a way that makes sense. Otherwise what happens is you get hung up on little things like this and it stops you from ever moving on and enjoying the rest of it, which seems to have happened with you. There's no point in endlessly going over one issue when a perfectly logical explanation for it exists.

We have no reason to assume that her motivations are purely altruistic either, yet you don't seem to feel the need to justify that assumption. The explanation that makes sense in the story should be taken as the correct one.

I haven't invented any facts. I've proposed an alternative reading to the way you read it. I also suggested that if the way you read it causes contradictions in the story, an alternative may be better.

This is literally the first thing she does after her first combat with the Order. It's not exactly a grovelling apology, but it's not exactly confirmation bias at work.

This one you have a point with, but I still don't think it's enough to refute the whole argument. In that case Miko has not only their words but her own paladin abilities telling her that she's wrong. It's harder to refute something when your own actions have reached the same conclusion (for instance, her Smite Evil and then her Detect Evil). I doubt she'd have listened to them otherwise.

Ultimately, it still fit her narrative of Paladin = Always Right, since she was just following the instructions from her Paladin skillset.

And even then, she still relapses when she gets a reason to dislike them.

[Peelee]

No, but she does thank Durkon for correcting her misconception. How many people are actively grateful for being shown to be mistaken?

For being shown to be tricked.

She has a huge problem if she's wrong by her own fault. She has zero problem if she's wrong because she was tricked.

[Kish]

Hamish, we've been over this. Shojo's ostensible plan is such a tangle of nonsense that I'm not going to give this portion of narrative much credit for holding together.

For some weird-ass reason, you appear to feel entitled to treat "no one convinced me" as "I made an airtight case."

Yes, we've been over how you believe the Sapphire Guard had Tippyverse abilities the story doesn't show them as having (Gin-Jun had, past tense, a single candle of invocation which summoned a planetar, not a solar, and that he used it was viewed as a wasteful overreaction by his subordinates; Shojo had a single wizard who could cast Teleport, and explicitly couldn't have anyone teleport the Order with that wizard dead; that the Sapphire Guard found the Crimson Mantle in proto-Redcloak's village says nothing about massive magical resources; nor does Lien having some number of Sending scrolls translate into what you apparently want it to) and should have been able to conduct a perfect mass teleportation ambush on Xykon when Xykon was somewhere between the Dungeon of Doruken and his tower. That does not mean anyone else is obligated to act as though this bizarre headcanon of yours is more official than the comic...or relevant at all.

[Potatopeelerkin]

For being shown to be tricked.

She has a huge problem if she's wrong by her own fault. She has zero problem if she's wrong because she was tricked.

You could even say she's a little overeager to assume she's been tricked, judging by her reaction to Shojo and subsequent conspiracy hypothesising.

[Keltest]

You could even say she's a little overeager to assume she's been tricked, judging by her reaction to Shojo and subsequent conspiracy hypothesising.

Well yeah. She cant be wrong, but she could have been tricked, so clearly if she changed her mind, then its because she had to have been tricked to believe what she thought before.

[D.One]

I'm curious... I didn't see Miko in the last strip, or any reference to her? Did I miss anything?

[Keltest]

I'm curious... I didn't see Miko in the last strip, or any reference to her? Did I miss anything?

To borrow from Kish,

Someone tried to convince Lacuna Caster of something.

[Potatopeelerkin]

I'm curious... I didn't see Miko in the last strip, or any reference to her? Did I miss anything?

Godwin's Modified Law: "As a strip discussion grows longer, the probability of an argument involving Miko approaches 1"

[KorvinStarmast]

Oh, I'll say that what Vaarsuvius said was inaccurate, technically and otherwise.

Do you want to say that the BOOM denoted, perhaps, 2d6 damage? That Roy was being silly when he dissuaded Haley from running into the inn, and she might have retrieved more gold with no risk to herself had she not stopped when he advised her to?

No? Then Miko was truly in mortal danger two strips earlier, wasn't she? Vaarsuvius, their own words about how harmless nonmagical fire is aside, certainly seems to have thought so.

If I may channel Elan for a moment¹, that little exchange seemed to me a case of V being a meanie due to V's dislike for Miko (in-character, as it were).

_{¹ Blech, I feel dirty now}

[Lacuna Caster]

Yes, we've been over how you believe the Sapphire Guard had Tippyverse abilities the story doesn't show them as having...

And you feel somehow entitled to treat "Tippyverse" as "not ignoring spells, information and abilities clearly demonstrated as available in the same setting to the same persons using the same rules".

I'm not trying to win an argument, I'm just trying to read the story in a way that makes sense. Otherwise what happens is you get hung up on little things like this and it stops you from ever moving on and enjoying the rest of it, which seems to have happened with you. There's no point in endlessly going over one issue when a perfectly logical explanation for it exists...

No... I don't think there is a logical explanation for "Miko both does, and does not, reflexively massacre usually-evil groups". I'm not going to extend a charitable explanation for that.

I've never claimed that Miko was ever exclusively altruistic. But I doubt that any prominent female character in popular media today who got the same kind of backlash for the same kinds of early behaviour and saw the same subsequent evolution would be called anything but a victim of naked misogyny by those on the progressive spectrum. I'm not really in that political camp, and I think that such explanations tend to be overly reductive, but clearly the portions of the fanbase once howling for her death, dismemberment, consignment to hell or sexual violation did not deserve to vindicated.

[The_Weirdo]

No, but she does thank Durkon for correcting her misconception. How many people are actively grateful for being shown to be mistaken?

I know I am. I always thank whoever corrects my English, what with being a translator and all...

[KorvinStarmast]

so I want to unpack it a little to get at how Miko's and O-Chul's actions differ. {snikp supporting points}
In short: Miko acts heroically, but treats people with disdain, even when they are not outright enemies; O-Chul is heroic and treats people who all his countrymen would consider enemies with respect and consideration. Also, O-Chul is more willing to accept and respond positively to criticism than Miko.

Nice.

As the Giant said of that arc - it was to show that Miko was a functional paladin most of her adult life despite her flaws - even if she faltered at the end.

And if it weren't for those meddling kids order of the stick Elan, she'd still be out there smiting evil ...

and he talked Shojo into the whole thing. It bears Eugene's "signature" more than Shojo's.

Nice read on that situation.

I'm curious... I didn't see Miko in the last strip, or any reference to her? Did I miss anything?

Godwin's Modified Law: "As a strip discussion grows longer, the probability of an argument involving Miko approaches 1"

I would suggest that we refer to it as Miyazaki's Law.

[Kish]

And you feel somehow entitled to treat "Tippyverse" as "not ignoring spells, information and abilities clearly demonstrated as available in the same setting to the same persons using the same rules".

If you think you can make a case that there is some inconsistency in Shojo's description of what led to Miko apprehending the Order, feel free. You just shouldn't act like "I asserted this before" somehow leads to "even though no one was convinced then, everyone should feel obligated to shut up and accept my word as binding now."

[Lacuna Caster]

Nice read on that situation.

If you think you can make a case that there is some inconsistency in Shojo's description of what led to Miko apprehending the Order...

Already have, in exhaustive detail. Let's move on.


...Look, I'm tired. Let's talk about something more uplifting, like the Gods doing an Eternal Sunshine on the outsiders every couple thousand years. Do they keep their class levels, I wonder?

[D.One]

Nice.
And if it weren't for those meddling kids order of the stick Elan, she'd still be out there smiting evil ...
Nice read on that situation. I would suggest that we refer to it as Miyazaki's Law.

To borrow from Kish,

Someone tried to convince Lacuna Caster of something.

Ok... someone has cast Summon Righteous Miko Discussion...

And you wonder why a newcomer in another thread asked something in the lines of "How bad were Miko threads?"...

They weren't . They still are. Thanks to the Mikult of Eternal Righteousness.

[Kish]

Already have, in exhaustive detail. Let's move on.

Isn't that interesting? From bringing it up to demand hamishspence stop disagreeing with you, to "let's move on" just like that when challenged to actually support your claims rather than asserting them.

[The_Weirdo]

Ok... someone has cast Summon Righteous Miko Discussion...

And you wonder why a newcomer in another thread asked something in the lines of "How bad were Miko threads?"...

They weren't . They still are. Thanks to the Mikult of Eternal Righteousness.

Yes, well. Good or Evil, authoritarians like Miko deserve what she got.

[KorvinStarmast]

Yes, well. Authoritarians like Miko deserve what she got.

I see a worm, and lookie there at the hook that it is wriggling on.

[The_Weirdo]

I see a worm, and lookie there at the hook that it is wriggling on.

Is it really surprising to anyone that I dislike authoritarians?

[Kish]

"Authoritarian" here being defined as someone who enforces rules other than yours? Not at all. Miko likewise reacted very negatively to Roy telling her his rules, which he would fight for, involved protecting members of his party even when the party member happened to be a serial killer.

[hamishspence]

Miko likewise reacted very negatively to Roy telling her his rules, which he would fight for, involved protecting members of his party even when the party member happened to be a serial killer.

The Giant did say that Roy's willingness to protect Belkar has limits - that, if he were actively plotting genocide, there's no doubt that Roy would let Miko execute him.

But because he only killed one person in Azure City - in the middle of a jailbreak, no less (Roy was willing to try and escape too, it must be said - and may even have been willing to fight his way out),

he's willing to take the approach that Belkar should be subjected to the legal processes of Azure City, and protect him until he's gone through that process - rather than permit Miko to act as judge, jury, and executioner.