[Sell Me] 5e. A game for a grognard?

[MoiMagnus]

From all the D&D I've tested, the best one (in my opinion) I've played were 5e, and an heavily house-ruled 4e.
But the most interesting character creations I've done were in 3.5 and Pathfinder.

For me, character creation is "half of the game" in 3.X. And it comes with a lot of plus (creating characters you will never play is actually interesting, and building a team too), and a lot of minus (the part where you play your character wasn't as great as other systems).

While 5e is an edition optimized for interesting gameplay, at the cost of any interest in technical character creation (background are still interesting to create). And 4e is basically not a true D&D, so not really comparable, but character creation suffer from the need of a balanced "wargame" whatever the choices you make.

The few games I've made in 1e, and the few things I've read on 2e convinced me they were obsolete, at least in the way they're written. (Seriously, game design and writing of game rules had made a lot of "level up" during those last decades). But I have no doubt a good DM could make them interesting to play.

[EggKookoo]

Using the game to recreate LotR or Prince Valiant or Arthur and Merlin or whatnot has been part of the game since before the little brown books made it to the printer in '74. The idea that 'old school' was exclusively playing the game like a dungeon-crawling game where your characters were glorified board game pieces and no narrative action took place is a retroactive revision that some in the hobby like to perpetuate for tribalism-related reasons.

This is so true it hurts. If there was ever an era of D&D just being pure dungeon crawls, it was very short-lived. Well before 2e was a thing, I was playing games heavy with investigation, social interaction, and non-combat challenges. And D&D's peers were no different. I think what perpetuates this idea that OD&D was just combat and dungeons (aside from the game's name suggesting it was something like that) was that there have always been people on both ends of the spectrum. In the 90s, a kind of "narrative first" dogma appeared, despite narrative never really being second for most players. Games like Vampire: The Masquerade got a lot of PR mileage our of not being a dungeon crawl, to the point where the combat mechanics were borderline nonsensical and often couched in LARP terminology. Once people perceived a schism, reality-based or not, it took on a life of its own.

While 5e is an edition optimized for interesting gameplay, at the cost of any interest in technical character creation (background are still interesting to create). And 4e is basically not a true D&D, so not really comparable, but character creation suffer from the need of a balanced "wargame" whatever the choices you make.

It does depend on your definition of "interesting." I'd be much happier in a game where every PC was a clone of each other, but the rules encouraged creative at-the-table gameplay, over a game where you could trick out your character a hundred different ways but the gameplay was clunky and overloaded. In fact, pre-3e D&D (and a lot of its peers) worked like the former. There were mechanical differences between classes, of course, but Fighter Bob was almost identical to Fighter Sue, and what made them different was how the players ran them.

The few games I've made in 1e, and the few things I've read on 2e convinced me they were obsolete, at least in the way they're written. (Seriously, game design and writing of game rules had made a lot of "level up" during those last decades). But I have no doubt a good DM could make them interesting to play.

I read an article a year ago or so where someone revisited the 1e PHB and DMG and tried to present the material in a more modern way. The result was... interesting. The game was certainly easier to understand but still very cumbersome to play. The big problem with 1e -- which the manuals masked -- was a lack of an underlying game-design philosophy. As has been said, 1e feels like a bunch of different game systems jammed together, and 2e went a long way toward unifying that.

[KorvinStarmast]

Some gms decide that all the cases are special.
Stairs are commonly known as being evil.
I mean there is tons of people who die in stairs and there is even videogames where you can trip and fall down the stairs and die from a 10 centimeters fall in stairs.e

Please consider not spreading misinformation in this thread.

[roryb]

5e doesn't have much in the ways of tables to memorise or reference. The core mechanics not being terribly deep helps a lot here. A 5e DM needs to adjucate quite a few things, but that's got more to do with confidence and judgement than needing to know fiddly modifiers. Once you know how to set a skill check DC and how Advantage/Disadvantage works you're pretty much good to go.

Session prep is probably a bit more than 4e (which was very plug-and-play, especially for monsters) and less than 3e, but it really depends on your DM-ing style. There's such a thing as over-preparation, and 5e's flexible enough that you can improvise without having to dive into the PHB/DMG to figure out how every time (seriously, I mostly look at my DM screen for conditions and alcohol prices). You can run 5e adventures with a loose script and do well.

This is quite encouraging. Charts all have a certain charm, but often less so during actual play.

I’ll continue with my plan (basic + starter + mines). I may come back with specific questions. Thank you all!

[KorvinStarmast]

I’m getting a good picture, especially from those who share my particular demographic, so thank you all for the responses.

Perhaps a last question from me... How much investment does it require compared to other versions in terms of: time to grok to DM-level confidence (if perhaps a shaky one), prepare sessions (from scratch adventure)? I suspect less than 3e or 4, but more than 1e/2e. Am I wrong? What are the rule reference demands during play? No worse than 2e, or more?

I do have the basic rules now, so thanks for the recommendations. I may get to the starter set if I’m still drawn to it and go through the adventure there next.

If you want to DM the game, run the starter set ... but take a good hard read through it first. Then go into the current basic rules and look at encounter building on pages 165-167. It's a rough tool, and will take a bit of customizing until it works for you just the way you want it to, but it's a decent tool.

For a bit more content, and one of each kind of character class, the SRD has some good stuff.

When I started DMing 5e, I had a ready reference sheet of all "conditions" from appendix A handy at all times. Sped play up a lot until I knew how the worked.
Stunned, prone, poisoned .. each has a fiddly detail, so it's handy to have that reference available right up front.

[MoiMagnus]

It does depend on your definition of "interesting."

You're right, what I wanted to say is that 5e is optimized an polished for a certain vision of interesting (not that 5e is the best whatever the metric you use). Mechanics of 5e are polished and (with few exceptions) well-designed and thought. They tried to got rid of everything that was not needed for their vision of "interesting".

I I'd be much happier in a game where every PC was a clone of each other, but the rules encouraged creative at-the-table gameplay

I do that (characters that have almost no differences except backgrounds) quite often, though only in one-shot, not campaigns. We just don't call it D&D, because people expect from D&D to have some tactical complexity and optimization dilemmas.

[Willie the Duck]

This is so true it hurts. If there was ever an era of D&D just being pure dungeon crawls, it was very short-lived. Well before 2e was a thing, I was playing games heavy with investigation, social interaction, and non-combat challenges. And D&D's peers were no different. I think what perpetuates this idea that OD&D was just combat and dungeons (aside from the game's name suggesting it was something like that) was that there have always been people on both ends of the spectrum. In the 90s, a kind of "narrative first" dogma appeared, despite narrative never really being second for most players. Games like Vampire: The Masquerade got a lot of PR mileage our of not being a dungeon crawl, to the point where the combat mechanics were borderline nonsensical and often couched in LARP terminology. Once people perceived a schism, reality-based or not, it took on a life of its own.

I think the idea of a monolithic gaming culture was maybe the first myth. People are usually aware of West Coast/East Coast/TwinCities-Lake Geneva schism, but there was also divisions based on whether you started gaming as a (usually college or post-college) historical wargamer, a kid, one of the SCA-like organizations, or something else entirely.

The focus on (and complaints about) "narrative first" definitely also predate the 90s. I know part of 2e's goals were to capture more of the (now known as) "Paladins and Princesses" play that AD&D was taking on, and the original Dragonlance adventure models were considered a step towards more narrative focus (a positive or negative reputation, depending).

[Petrocorus]

...but — and I should have noted this in my initial observations before asking here — there is no pdf version?! That’s a dealbreaker for me. I don’t have the shelf space for large gamebooks. At most, I might be able to add one or two digest-sized volume of any size to my collection.

Sheesh. I guess this is to combat piracy? What century are we in now?

Bite me. This always annoy me.
And it's not just for shelves space. It's so much more convenient to carry the PHB and a tablet or even a mini-PC than 3+ books. Notably if you have a lot of other mateiral to carry.

And i don't think it's efficient in fighting piracy. Because people who wants PDF will find them. This is more an incentive not to buy some of the books.

[EggKookoo]

I’ll continue with my plan (basic + starter + mines). I may come back with specific questions. Thank you all!

I see you trying to close out this thread in a sensible fashion. Unfortunately, GitP doesn't seem to have an "off" button.

[2D8HP]

Ha. Being a rather recent comer myself, I don't know that I'm really qualified to sell you, but seriously, this is the biggest reason to play 5e:

You can play it with real-life human beings....

So much this.

I started in '78 as a DM with the Holmes "bluebook", and then as a player in '79 with the LBB's and the Monster Manual, and then I mixed some of the rest of AD&D as a DM in the 1980's, played a little B/X, a lot of other games, took a long glance at 3e, short glances at 2e, 3.5, and 4e, and have played some 5e.

If the adventures appeal to you and the players of 5e appeal than it's worth it.

In some ways 5e is simpler than AD&D, and it's only a lot more complex than B/X if you want it to be, a red pencil for editing is your friend.

I also am an old Grognard that came from 2e. I have the last couple of years restarted playing D&D with my old mates that I used to play with 25+ years ago. We went with 5e and it have been great, the mechanics are easy and feels old school - they are not really, but they feel that way and that is what counts.

I can only recommend giving it ago.

A warning, beware old grognards! Modern roleplayers are more into narrative style gaming than what us old grognards are used too, so that is a much more difficult transition if you are to play with youngish gamers than what rule system you use.

Yes.

Some of the assumptions of some players who grew up with different styles (all encounters should be melee, et cetera) grate, but that's not rules that's players.

I’m getting a good picture, especially from those who share my particular demographic, so thank you all for the responses.

Perhaps a last question from me... How much investment does it require compared to other versions in terms of: time to grok to DM-level confidence (if perhaps a shaky one), prepare sessions (from scratch adventure)? I suspect less than 3e or 4, but more than 1e/2e. Am I wrong? What are the rule reference demands during play? No worse than 2e, or more?

I do have the basic rules now, so thanks for the recommendations. I may get to the starter set if I’m still drawn to it and go through the adventure there next.

The options in the DMG give you a good feel for "house ruling" to taste, the PHB is mostly player options you may ignore, the free rules and maybe the Starter Set are all you need.

As a "grognard" it is the only version of WotC D&D I will deign to play, it's that good. It's even better houseruled!

@opaopajr speaks truly!

Here's a fine statement on 5e:

Yes... provisionally.

So, 2e was my game.

I started playing D&D in or around 1993. I was a young geekling just taking their first steps into true nerddom. I walked into a comic and gaming shop called "The Bookmark" to buy some magic cards and saw some people playing a game I didn't know anything about... so I sat in.

Within a couple of weekends, I was rolling up a Mage that was horribly derivative of Raistlin for the Dragonlance campaign Toby (The DM) was running. I was easily distracted, unfocused, annoying, and constantly needed help to do literally anything from character creation to rolling the dice because the rules didn't make sense, yet.

And it was kind of fun. Mostly I think I enjoyed having so many older teens focused on me in a positive way, sharing something they enjoyed, was a precious feeling that I'll never forget. Over the next few years my brother and I got a real "Feel" for what roleplaying and Dungeons and Dragons were about.

It wasn't long before both of us were running our own games. Sometimes at home, sometimes at the Bookmark. My parents were delighted because the family was pretty poor at the time, but people were happy to loan us their books if it meant someone else was the DM, y'know? My parents would drop us off at the Bookmark on Weekends and due to the way gaming worked at the shop, we'd get a decent meal without it costing the family precious food stamps...

I traveled the Sea of Silt in a skiff. My brother walked through the doors of Sigil. We fled from Darkon with riches untold, and died at the teeth of countless fantastic beasts. The game was fantasy, and escape, and warmth of camaraderie. Surrounded by people who would die for me, even if it was only in a game of imagination.

Over time, we scrimped and saved enough to buy a few sourcebooks, the Dark Sun Boxed Set, and the core rulebooks. But Norman grew out of tabletop gaming and, without my knowledge, sold all of the books for some cash so he could buy tickets to a Metallica Concert. I was devastated.

Still. I borrowed books. I wrote until my wrist hurt. I memorized charts and tables of attacks and experience and I continued to run games to the best of my ability, and play in them.

Third Edition came out while I was in Job Corps. I had been unable to get to a tabletop game for over a year, and satisfied myself with reading GURPS books and the like or trying to play in some ridiculous games that had as much focus as a camera with no lens dipped in bacon grease. These weren't even beer and pretzels games, folks, they were hollow attempts at self-aggrandizement by the GM while everyone else tried and failed to do anything interesting.

My boyfriend and I bought the core books for 3e somewhere around 2001. I started running games pretty much immediately and pretty much nonstop. I used old campaign notes and adapted monsters to the new stats and systems, but it all felt... wrong. The stories didn't feel supported by the rules, being things of deadly seriousness while the rules were too lenient with the players, giving them endless solutions and choice paralysis.

The feeling of real RISK was gone. My players? Loved it. So I ran.

3.5 came along and, for a brief time, it was a bit better. With the changes they made, there, helped to limit some of the shenanigans, but soon the massive glut of rulesets bogged everything down, again. Endless new classes and prestige classes and feat trees created mires that left my stories by the wayside... Most of my old campaign notes and adventures were lost around that time. I just gave up on ever hoping to have that feeling, again.

4e was a mess. I had minimal interest in it. But Pathfinder was a new and interesting take on 3e's systems while killing off the 3.5 glut. New class design and features shifting things around and made the overwhelming quantity of tables and rules-infringements disappear... at least until they made it all 3.5 compatible.

At that point, I more or less left tabletop gaming behind for the second time in my life, and threw myself into MMORPGs and Internet Chat RP to scratch that escapist itch. It's where I eventually met my husband (A different story, altogether!) and the best friend we both have. This best friend? He does tabletop gaming online. And brought us into it, full force. Mutants and Masterminds, Pathfinder, 4th Edition D&D, some small measure of Savage Worlds... None of it felt -exactly- like home, but it was warm, and friendly, and I loved it.

5th edition came down the pipeline. By this point in my life, I was a systems design nerd. I love breaking down the mechanics of how a game determines successes or damage, balances different characters, and more. So 5th edition initially drew me in on -that- basis.

But as I played, I started feeling that old feeling, again. Just glimmers of it, here or there. The feeling I had, sitting at a table of friends, looking up from character sheets to dice and shouting with delight at the result. OF being truly -excited- by the game, by the friends, by the outcomes. Feeling nervous when I rolled a die. Feeling like there was a real weight in my hand...

It still wasn't perfect. Not until I started running Tyranny of Dragons. I know. I know. It's so simplistic and railroady and site-to-site... But my players don't always hold to the rails. Don't always follow the plan. They're players like that. And during one of the first encounters in that game, the whole table, scattered across the US as we are, felt the excitement, the weight of the dice. The feelings I'd not truly felt in almost two decades crystallized in that moment, into perfect clarity.

And suddenly I was a kid, sitting at the table with my friends, watching a die bounce in slow motion, feeling the trepidation and hope for how it would land, the fifth death save of my husband's character, bouncing across the digital playspace as a computer generated image of a polyhedral dice...

And the feeling stayed. It hasn't faded, yet.

When I look at 5e D&D I feel that joy, again, that unbridled exuberance. Like a sleeping dragon finally taking to the skies, anew, after a decades long slumber. And the glory of the world is blinding and bold. Worlds. From Athas to Faerun to Golarion and Krynn. Across Oerth and the Planes I'm ready, again, to step forth onto a skiff to cut across the sea of silt. To step into the dungeon-tomb of Acererak. To plunder Undermountain and to stand Against the Giants.

5th edition isn't for everyone. 5th edition won't rekindle everyone's childhood feeling of what D&D truly -was-. It's not a perfect system, by a long shot. And it's definitely not 2nd edition. But it's closer, in my opinion, than anything has ever been. And it did it while moving forward, while learning from 2e's mistakes and making new ones that it'll learn from as it goes on.

I highly recommend it.

[roryb]

Bite me. This always annoy me.
And it's not just for shelves space. It's so much more convenient to carry the PHB and a tablet or even a mini-PC than 3+ books. Notably if you have a lot of other mateiral to carry.

And i don't think it's efficient in fighting piracy. Because people who wants PDF will find them. This is more an incentive not to buy some of the books.

Not to mention the convenience of electronic bookmarks and copying important text.

I see you trying to close out this thread in a sensible fashion. Unfortunately, GitP doesn't seem to have an "off" button.

No worries. I’m still following, so people can feel free to continue posting their insights, which have been helpful.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

I want a game that’s supported that might allow me to run games in several modes: standard crawls, intrigue-based, or even more freeform player-driven action in which I can improv.

Is 5e for me? Does it run (from the DMs side of things) fast and loose enough for a ‘casual gamer’?

This is 5e exactly! It's streamlined but so deep, and like fine wine or good cheese it gets better with age. That's to say, the more you play the more you really start to hit your stride. I've played relatively little 3e and 4e (and nothing before then), but I understand those systems pretty well. I really really like 3.5, but this version is better for me and why I like to play. It's also so so so so so much simpler to teach new players than 3e. You can get into the weeds with mechanics if you want, or you can go as far away from the rules as they do in The Adventure Zone podcast and the system holds up either way. It's all about fun, improvised storytelling, and being adaptable to every group style and DM table.

Dude. It's the best version of the game since either 1E or 3.0 depending on your tastes. 5E is a greatest hits edition, and it hits a very nice sweet spot.

This is coming from someone who's been playing for 33 years, and worked at the publisher of the game for a little over a 1/3rd of that time.

I agree with the greatest hits sentiment. Even though I haven't played anything prior to 3e, I do know a decent amount about those editions. It seems to really condense most of the best aspects of all previous editions into one light, digestible package.

...but — and I should have noted this in my initial observations before asking here — there is no pdf version?! That’s a dealbreaker for me. I don’t have the shelf space for large gamebooks. At most, I might be able to add one or two digest-sized volume of any size to my collection.

Sheesh. I guess this is to combat piracy? What century are we in now?

The online SRD is free at places like Roll20. Also, I've run several games before with just the PHB. I got my monsters from Roll20 and the like, sometimes retooling goblins to be human pirates or something. So I'd say if you can just buy the PHB and stuff it under your mattress for storage, you'll be good to go. I have several more books now, but I made it for years as both a player and a DM with just the PHB.

Unfortunately they aren't good adventures.

Maybe not all of them, but there are some pretty great ones for 5e. Dragon Heist and Tomb of Annihilation are two of my favorites and extremely well constructed. Depending on the group's interests, Dungeon of the Mad Mage and Curse of Strahd can also be amazing.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

I’m getting a good picture, especially from those who share my particular demographic, so thank you all for the responses.

Perhaps a last question from me... How much investment does it require compared to other versions in terms of: time to grok to DM-level confidence (if perhaps a shaky one), prepare sessions (from scratch adventure)? I suspect less than 3e or 4, but more than 1e/2e. Am I wrong? What are the rule reference demands during play? No worse than 2e, or more?

I do have the basic rules now, so thanks for the recommendations. I may get to the starter set if I’m still drawn to it and go through the adventure there next.

Missed this with my first comment. As a word of encouragement, I taught my friend to play who had never played before and he was our DM after our first session or two. He's been the best DM I've ever had and has been going strong for about two years now with our current group. Granted, he's had me to lean on when rules questions come up, but those aren't common anymore.

Edit: He had pretty extensive knowledge of most mechanics within the first 4 sessions or so I'd say.

[GlenSmash!]

5e has a couple good things going for it.

It's popular and it's good enough to run games where you can fight things, get loot, be heroes or villains if you want in a manner that's fairly streamlined. Oh and it has a number of games being streamed using it which can give you an idea of how certain tables play it.

These are good enough for me to keep using it even if I would rather have few things changed.

[Petrocorus]

Did someone end the campaign after getting it?
Does the Deck of many things keeps its campaign ending power in 5e?

With careless players, yes.
I gave it to one of my table. They wished to gain the XP they would gain from killing an ancient gold dragon. But of course, they worded it so poorly, history was rewritten so that they actually killed an ancient gold dragon. Hence, many heroes and dragons now on the tail their 6th level *selves*.

Several of the items were "awarded" by the Deck of Many Things found in the Goblin Cave on our first session... Monty haul DMs (shakes head)....

There were absolutely no magic item in the Cragmaw Hideout. The LMoP is a bit more generous than the base guideline when it comes to magic items, but this kind of magic item at level 1 with new players.
I gave it to 6th level PC and it was already too early.

Not to mention the convenience of electronic bookmarks and copying important text.

Copy-pasting rules on the character sheet for instance, or extracting your own bestiary specific to the current adventure.

[Jophiel]

Just another player of 1e here who switched to 5e and has enjoyed it. I started off grumbling about the usual stuff ("Dwarf wizards? Lock picking isn't a thief exclusive skill? This is stupid") but after a couple sessions, let go of that stuff and enjoyed the game for what it is. Plus, as previously mentioned, it has the benefit of actually being played at numerous places and not requiring me to try to play with my Class of 1991 high school buddies.

A warning, beware old grognards! Modern roleplayers are more into narrative style gaming than what us old grognards are used too, so that is a much more difficult transition if you are to play with youngish gamers than what rule system you use.

It's funny because I see old 1e/2e players grumble and bitch about how they tried to RP at a 5e table and everyone threw Mt Dew cans at them because "This video game generation just ROLL plays, man! They only care about the combat!". Then the next post is some grognard going on about how "This new generation thinks every game will be like Critical Role and how can you run a game when it's six wannabe actors pretending they're on Youtube!"

Not that it's a new 'debate' anyway. Go back into dusty issues of Dragon and the Letters section and Editorials have plenty about "Combat driven Monty Haul campaigns" and "People trying to turn AD&D into theater club"

[Willie the Duck]

This is so true it hurts. If there was ever an era of D&D just being pure dungeon crawls, it was very short-lived. Well before 2e was a thing, I was playing games heavy with investigation, social interaction, and non-combat challenges. And D&D's peers were no different. I think what perpetuates this idea that OD&D was just combat and dungeons (aside from the game's name suggesting it was something like that) was that there have always been people on both ends of the spectrum. In the 90s, a kind of "narrative first" dogma appeared, despite narrative never really being second for most players. Games like Vampire: The Masquerade got a lot of PR mileage our of not being a dungeon crawl, to the point where the combat mechanics were borderline nonsensical and often couched in LARP terminology. Once people perceived a schism, reality-based or not, it took on a life of its own.

I think the idea of a monolithic gaming culture was maybe the first myth. People are usually aware of West Coast/East Coast/TwinCities-Lake Geneva schism, but there was also divisions based on whether you started gaming as a (usually college or post-college) historical wargamer, a kid, one of the SCA-like organizations, or something else entirely.

The focus on (and complaints about) "narrative first" definitely also predate the 90s. I know part of 2e's goals were to capture more of the (now known as) "Paladins and Princesses" play that AD&D was taking on, and the original Dragonlance adventure models were considered a step towards more narrative focus (a positive or negative reputation, depending).

[2D8HP]

I think the idea of a monolithic gaming culture was maybe the first myth. People are usually aware of West Coast/East Coast/TwinCities-Lake Geneva schism, but there was also divisions based on whether you started gaming as a (usually college or post-college) historical wargamer, a kid, one of the SCA-like organizations, or something else entirely....

I know that at my usual table we mostly played a conga-line of human Fighting-men (a 101+ Conan expy's) and at my first. DunDraCon finding that the majority of players (especially those old enough to grow beards which I wasn't yet) played Magic-Users instead seemed weird.

[KorvinStarmast]

it has the benefit of actually being played at numerous places and not requiring me to try to play with my Class of 1991 high school buddies.

I currently am in a campaign, 5e, with my Class of 1976 high school buddies. We play on roll20 since we are all over the country.

Go back into dusty issues of Dragon and the Letters section and Editorials have plenty about "Combat driven Monty Haul campaigns" and "People trying to turn AD&D into theater club"

Yeah, the letter section used to induce eye rolling in this subscriber.

I think the idea of a monolithic gaming culture was maybe the first myth. People are usually aware of West Coast/East Coast/TwinCities-Lake Geneva schism, but there was also divisions based on whether you started gaming as a (usually college or post-college) historical wargamer, a kid, one of the SCA-like organizations, or something else entirely.

Yeah, good point.

[JoeJ]

Not that it's a new 'debate' anyway. Go back into dusty issues of Dragon and the Letters section and Editorials have plenty about "Combat driven Monty Haul campaigns" and "People trying to turn AD&D into theater club"

And the foreward to Gods, Demi-gods and Heroes (published in 1976) complains, for what the editor hopes is the last time, about "Monty Hall" DMs.

[olskool]

Deck of Many Things can't award +5 items. It also can't be found in the Goblin Cave, in fact there are no Magic Items in the Goblin Cave.

All the issues you are bringing up are entirely the fault of your DM not the game. Edit: Also there was no way for your Familar to get trapped in a gem in the Dragon's Hoard ether.

But I do ask why you were having the Wizard try to bash the stuck doors, when you likely have stronger party member that could do it instead. (And be assisted at it)

Anyway to to help the OP D&D Beyond is the place for you to get digital copies of the game as other people have said. As no one else has I will provide a link https://www.dndbeyond.com/

I am WELL AWARE of what magic can be awarded in 5e. The posting you read was a reply to another post after I warned the OP about certain types of DMs showing up to play 5e, specifically certain types of "power gamers" and "Monty Haul DMs" (if you are a fellow "grognard," you WILL recognize this term). It was a simple warning to the OP that 5e DOES NOT possess "hard limits" on power gaming and he will have to "install" them just as with 1e/2e. The second poster asked for an "elaboration" on my experience with this new group, so I gave it as a cautionary tale about how NOT TO DM.

If you read my posts, you see that my Familiar wasn't trapped in a crystal. The DM's PC that he was running in addition to DMing (a Monk called Scrim) was trapped in the jewel after drawing a card from the Deck. The DM was VERY upset by this and when we ventured to the ruined town where the Dragon built a lair in the tower, he was bent on our rescuing Scrim. I attempted to use my squirrel familiar to RECON the tower but the DM REPEATEDLY said "your squirrel CANNOT climb the tower, it's too smooth for him to climb." He wouldn't even let me use Mage Hand to lift my familiar up to a tower window because he KNEW if I knew there was a dragon inside the tower, I wouldn't go inside. Scrim would remain imprisioned in that gem. So the three of us (2nd lvl Wizard, 2nd lvl Thief, and a 5th lvl Barbarian/5th lvl Bard Bugbear) entered the keep and the dragon confronted us. As I was negotiating with the Dragon, the Bugbear tried to cast a cantrip (covertly) and the dragon attacked us with its breath weapon. I failed my save (taking 44 hp of damage to my 14 hp wizard) and DIED. The bugbear slammed the door between the tower and the cottage (grabbing the also dieing Hafling Thief who was on his side of the door) and fled the town. He did feel bad about my death and is letting me create another SECOND LEVEL Wizard so we can go slay the dragon and free Scrim. I guess he put a lot of time into Scrim.

I was opening the doors because it was just me and the Hafling Thief exploring the town and I had the higher STR (10). The Barbarian/Bard was busy using his "animal handling" ability that he got for Totem Barbarian to catch and tame Twig Blights(?) so he could build an army of insect warriors to unleash on his enemies (he has a powerful Devil/Demon gunning for him thanks to a card from the Deck). It was an interesting 6 sessions....

I reitterate my warning about Monty Haul Dms!

[olskool]

In general I'd say about the same as 2e. The game isn't all that different. If you're talking about combat encounters, be aware of a few specific things that change the action economy. Things like actions vs. bonus actions vs. reactions, and how the concentration mechanic works. Also, 5e uses the word "attack" often to mean a specific kind of action: an attack that uses an attack roll i.e. a d20 that is meant to overcome a target's AC. This can catch you if you're not aware of how the term is used. And sometimes characters get multiple attacks, which is not the same thing as multiple actions.

Regarding actions and bonus actions, a lot of players get confused about if they have a bonus action or what. I like my bucket-and-tag visualization: you have two buckets, one labeled action and another labeled bonus action. Everything you do has a tag on it with the same words: action or bonus action. Whenever you do something, you put the item in the bucket with the same tag. If you don't happen to have an item with a bonus action tag, you can't take a bonus action that turn. Otherwise you can. Each bucket can hold one item, and you empty them out at the beginning of the round.

If you get into the weeds, just post questions in the this forum. People are typically pretty helpful.

This sums up the issues you might have pretty well. I'd run it "narrow" or "hardlined" like you'd run 2e until you get used to the system. No FEATS, no Multiclassing/Dual Classing until you understand the ramifications of these in game and watch "custom builds" that might use supplements you don't possess like Mordenkainen's Guide to Everything. Watch for "bonus actions" requests that don't line up with the reality of a 6-SECOND COMBAT ROUND (no more 1 minute rounds in 5e). You will enjoy the ADVANTAGE and DISADVANTAGE Mechanic. I honestly believe this is the best game mechanic WOTC ever developed when you consider it's flexability and simplicity.

Good Luck man.

[EggKookoo]

If you read my posts, you see that my Familiar wasn't trapped in a crystal. The DM's PC that he was running in addition to DMing (a Monk called Scrim) was trapped in the jewel after drawing a card from the Deck. The DM was VERY upset by this and when we ventured to the ruined town where the Dragon built a lair in the tower, he was bent on our rescuing Scrim. I attempted to use my squirrel familiar to RECON the tower but the DM REPEATEDLY said "your squirrel CANNOT climb the tower, it's too smooth for him to climb." He wouldn't even let me use Mage Hand to lift my familiar up to a tower window because he KNEW if I knew there was a dragon inside the tower, I wouldn't go inside. Scrim would remain imprisioned in that gem. So the three of us (2nd lvl Wizard, 2nd lvl Thief, and a 5th lvl Barbarian/5th lvl Bard Bugbear) entered the keep and the dragon confronted us. As I was negotiating with the Dragon, the Bugbear tried to cast a cantrip (covertly) and the dragon attacked us with its breath weapon. I failed my save (taking 44 hp of damage to my 14 hp wizard) and DIED. The bugbear slammed the door between the tower and the cottage (grabbing the also dieing Hafling Thief who was on his side of the door) and fled the town. He did feel bad about my death and is letting me create another SECOND LEVEL Wizard so we can go slay the dragon and free Scrim. I guess he put a lot of time into Scrim.

I was opening the doors because it was just me and the Hafling Thief exploring the town and I had the higher STR (10). The Barbarian/Bard was busy using his "animal handling" ability that he got for Totem Barbarian to catch and tame Twig Blights(?) so he could biuld an army of insect warriors to unleash on his enemies (he has a powerful Devil/Demon gunning for him thanks to a card from the Deck). It was an interesting 6 sessions....

This is just... comedy.

I reitterate my warning about Monty Haul Dms!

I don't think I have much praise for your DM, but based on your description above I don't see how a Monty Haul mindset factors in. I mean, he may have been trying to run a Monty Haul style game, but that appears to be beside the point.

[olskool]

With careless players, yes.
I gave it to one of my table. They wished to gain the XP they would gain from killing an ancient gold dragon. But of course, they worded it so poorly, history was rewritten so that they actually killed an ancient gold dragon. Hence, many heroes and dragons now on the tail their 6th level *selves*.


There were absolutely no magic item in the Cragmaw Hideout. The LMoP is a bit more generous than the base guideline when it comes to magic items, but this kind of magic item at level 1 with new players.
I gave it to 6th level PC and it was already too early.


Copy-pasting rules on the character sheet for instance, or extracting your own bestiary specific to the current adventure.

YEP! It did a very good job breaking the campaign on the 3rd Session in. I tried to warn our DM about "Monty Haul Syndrome," but I was told by all the players "we aren't playing 'Vietnam AD&D' here where you just scrape by for a bit of gold and a +1 sword. We're heros and this is the NEW D&D!" To each his own, I guess. I'll probably head back to Mythras unless I can find a sensible group to game with.

[olskool]

This is just... comedy.



I don't think I have much praise for your DM, but based on your description above I don't see how a Monty Haul mindset factors in. I mean, he may have been trying to run a Monty Haul style game, but that appears to be beside the point.

This is one issue with the Monty Haul Campaign, you never know HOW your game is going to "implode."

If you are a new DM, I implore you, BE STINGY and cautious both with treasure/magic AND your Encounters. You can always ramp up the reward or the danger once you gain an understanding of both the system AND (MORE IMPORTANTLY) your group's dynamic. It's always easier to lighten up than tighten down!

[Envyus]

This is one issue with the Monty Haul Campaign, you never know HOW your game is going to "implode."

If you are a new DM, I implore you, BE STINGY and cautious both with treasure/magic AND your Encounters. You can always ramp up the reward or the danger once you gain an understanding of both the system AND (MORE IMPORTANTLY) your group's dynamic. It's always easier to lighten up than tighten down!

This is not doing is a Monty Haul Campaign. This is giving the Campaign destroying Deck of Many Things in the first session.

[ad_hoc]

I’m getting a good picture, especially from those who share my particular demographic, so thank you all for the responses.

Perhaps a last question from me... How much investment does it require compared to other versions in terms of: time to grok to DM-level confidence (if perhaps a shaky one), prepare sessions (from scratch adventure)? I suspect less than 3e or 4, but more than 1e/2e. Am I wrong? What are the rule reference demands during play? No worse than 2e, or more?

I do have the basic rules now, so thanks for the recommendations. I may get to the starter set if I’m still drawn to it and go through the adventure there next.

I have had people who I taught the game to and played for a couple sessions buy some books and start up their own game. They had no problems. It's very intuitive. The rules are designed so that if a table guesses what a rule is they're probably right.

The only people I have personal experience with who have trouble understanding 5e are 3e players.

[Ghatt]

I'd say it's much more of a sequel to 2e than 1e. 1e was notable for having a ton of disconnected tables, rules systems that didn't integrate with each other, and incredibly convoluted rules with tons of exceptions and special cases. Just look at the difficulty people have in figuring out how 1e initiative works, and how the magic, melee, and ranged pieces seem to each be from a different game. (And then add in the psionics rules) There were also clearly different philosophies at work in different parts of the book; for example, if a player attracted 5th-8th level followers, they would arrive with much more magical equipment than a PC starting at 5th-8th level and using the chart for magic items for PCs starting at higher levels. 2e without all of the splat books tried to keep most of the feel of 1e in play and 'stat blocks' (to the point that you can use 1e and 2e modules pretty much interchangeably), but tried to cut out weird special cases and bizarrely complicated rules (again, look at initiative) and use a more consistent rules philosophy.

Maybe. I’ve never played 2e, so I wouldn’t know. I’ll take your word for it though.

[Malifice]

The only people I have personal experience with who have trouble understanding 5e are 3e players.

And those people who dont read the rules.

For the first few sessions, stop and read each rule as it comes up so you're familiar with it. First combat you have, read the rulebook Combat section to make sure you're doing Surprise, Initiative, Movement, Actions etc correctly.

Encourage rules lawers in this first session or two. Heck; award Inspiration any time you get a rule wrong, and a player correctly calls you on it.

[MaxWilson]

I have had people who I taught the game to and played for a couple sessions buy some books and start up their own game. They had no problems. It's very intuitive. The rules are designed so that if a table guesses what a rule is they're probably right.

...as long as you're prepared to ignore official WotC spokesman Jeremy Crawford's tweets telling them that the rule is actually supposed to be this totally opposite thing either (1) because of technicality XYZ in jargon of the rules text, or (2) because Jeremy Crawford has an opinion different than the rules text.

In other words, 5E's rules are simple in the same way all RPG rules are simple when you interpret them simply. They're quite a bit more complicated than OD&D's rules, and are about as complicated as AD&D's rules once you finish accounting for bonus actions and different kinds of feats and exception-based class abilities. AD&D's complexity shows up mostly in the form of certain tables that you need to consult for e.g. saving throws or thief skills; 5E's complexity shows up in the form of rule exceptions that you need to remember to apply in certain situations. But if you don't sweat mistakes too much, neither form of complexity will prevent you from having a good time with your friends this game session.