Belkar's Alignment

[zimmerwald1915]

You think Bozzok would slow down on the killing if Haley stops paying him? One that's unlikely, since he was pretty set on killing her and two, how does that not involve giving money to Bozzok?

I really do not give two figs if Bozzok keeps trying to kill Haley. She can take care of herself, and has powerful friends. My concern has been that Haley's gold allows Bozzok to cement his reign of terror in Greysky City and over its people. This is true even if he mostly uses the gold to fund reprisals against Haley. A mere 5% (10% of the 50% she was obligated to pay) of everything she looted while with the Order (note: not looted and kept, ever looted - so that includes things looted and lost like the dragon's hoard, or looted and spent. This is why she was obligated to make continued payments) would be enough to fund shakedowns and assassinations in Greysky City for years to come. Ergo, it in no way stops Bozzok's killing, it in fact enables it. The only way the agreement stops Bozzok's killing is if you only care about "the people whose names I know are saved!"

[Fyraltari]

I really do not give two figs if Bozzok keeps trying to kill Haley. She can take care of herself, and has powerful friends. My concern has been that Haley's gold allows Bozzok to cement his reign of terror in Greysky City and over its people. This is true even if he mostly uses the gold to fund reprisals against Haley. A mere 5% (10% of the 50% she was obligated to pay) of everything she looted while with the Order (note: not looted and kept, ever looted - so that includes things looted and lost like the dragon's hoard, or looted and spent. This is why she was obligated to make continued payments) would be enough to fund shakedowns and assassinations in Greysky City for years to come. Ergo, it in no way stops Bozzok's killing, it in fact enables it. The only way the agreement stops Bozzok's killing is if you only care about "the people whose names I know are saved!"

And how does your solution diminish the killings? Also 50% of money they don't know exist equals 0gp.

[zimmerwald1915]

And how does your solution diminish the killings?

By making Bozzok less able to pay for assassins than he would be had the agreement been fulfilled. From Bozzok's perspective, the agreement was not a windfall. It was making him whole by giving him Haley's back dues. If it is not fulfilled, he's behind where he would otherwise be, not ahead.

Put another way, Haley's departure and nonpayments already diminished the killings in Greysky somewhat. The agreement, by undoing the effects of that, would thus increase the killings back towards where they would have been if Haley had not left or had kept paying dues.

[Kish]

Are we sure? It certainly looks conflicted; but personally I find it a little easier to buy that Haley went along with Celia's ploy right up until she could teleport directly out of Greysky and Bozzok's (immediate) reach, then that Bozzok lied to Grubwiggler about spending Haley's money.

I find "Bozzok is counting himself as spending money he doesn't have yet but expects to loot from Haley's corpse" more likely than "Haley parted with so much as one copper to Bozzok before killing Crystal and telling her that the deal's off," for my part. Though I concur that that line of Bozzok's creates problems with the "Haley didn't pay anything" narrative.

[Fyraltari]

By making Bozzok less able to pay for assassins than he would be had the agreement been fulfilled. From Bozzok's perspective, the agreement was not a windfall. It was making him whole by giving him Haley's back dues. If it is not fulfilled, he's behind where he would otherwise be, not ahead.

Put another way, Haley's departure and nonpayments already diminished the killings in Greysky somewhat. The agreement, by undoing the effects of that, would thus increase the killings back towards where they would have been if Haley had not left or had kept paying dues.

I'm sorry but what exactly is your solution? Killing Bozzok? Haning him to whatever authorities Greysky City has? Just plain leaving him there and hop he won't interfere in their rescue of Roy's body and contact with Durkon?

[zimmerwald1915]

I'm sorry but what exactly is your solution? Killing Bozzok? Haning him to whatever authorities Greysky City has? Just plain leaving him there and hop he won't interfere in their rescue of Roy's body and contact with Durkon?

As it happens, I think Haley hit on a pretty good solution, and have said as much several times: get what you need out of the agreement that's been imposed on you, maybe make a nominal payment if you can't avoid it, skip town once you've gotten everything you need (stealing back what you can of what you've already paid), and then once you're effectively out of reach, stop funding the mafia.

What you don't do is cleave to the bad agreement that funds the mafia.

Disclaimer: none of the above is or should be taken as legal advice.

[Fyraltari]

As it happens, I think Haley hit on a pretty good solution, and have said as much several times: get what you need out of the agreement that's been imposed on you, maybe make a nominal payment if you can't avoid it, skip town once you've gotten everything you need (stealing back what you can of what you've already paid), and then once you're effectively out of reach, stop funding the mafia.

What you don't do is cleave to the bad agreement that funds the mafia.

So what's the issue exactly?

Disclaimer: none of the above is or should be taken as legal advice.

Ask your lawyer if dealing with mafiosi is right for you!

[zimmerwald1915]

So what's the issue exactly?

With what Haley did? Very little. With what Celia did? She imposed on a whole city an agreement that, if it had been followed (which she clearly intended it to be), would have meant an intensification of the oppression and misrule they had already been suffering under Bozzok. Apparently without considering or being bothered by that consequence. It really goes to show how privileged and out-of-touch she was, and why such people should not be shaping public policy.

[Callista]

Celia is pretty naive, though. Would she have predicted those results?

If somebody tries to do something right, and it goes wrong, then we call them misguided or stupid or untrained. If they know they're untrained and they try anyway, we call them unwise. If it goes far enough, it's negligence. But if they are closer to the "sincere mistake" than the "negligence" end of the scale, then we have to judge them by what they were trying and hoping to do rather than what they actually did.

[Fyraltari]

With what Haley did? Very little. With what Celia did? She imposed on a whole city an agreement that, if it had been followed (which she clearly intended it to be), would have meant an intensification of the oppression and misrule they had already been suffering under Bozzok. Apparently without considering or being bothered by that consequence. It really goes to show how privileged and out-of-touch she was, and why such people should not be shaping public policy.

Since when is making a deal with a private (and illegal) organisation, imposing a deal on a whole city? Celia cannot be held accountable for how poorly Greysky City is run.

[Jasdoif]

I find "Bozzok is counting himself as spending money he doesn't have yet but expects to loot from Haley's corpse" more likely than "Haley parted with so much as one copper to Bozzok before killing Crystal and telling her that the deal's off," for my part. Though I concur that that line of Bozzok's creates problems with the "Haley didn't pay anything" narrative.

The part that really messes with me, is that Haley said she's not "paying him one copper piece ever again". Now, she could easily be referring to her time as a card-carrying member of the Thieves' Guild...just as she could be talking about some exchange that happened before the extraction of Roy the Golem (who's not related to Roy G. Biv...that I know of).

[zimmerwald1915]

Celia is pretty naive, though. Would she have predicted those results?

In my first year of law school, I had a ConLaw professor who opened his first lecture with a spiel - drawn in large part from Burke, now that I think about it - about how in modern states constitutions and laws are made largely by and for lawyers, that lawyers by virtue of this and of their overrepresentation in governments are a ruling class in some senses, and thus that lawyers thus had a responsibility to be attentive to the public ramifications of what they do, even in private transactions.

Anecdotal evidence is not dispositive of anything, but I highly doubt Celia never encountered some version of this idea.

[Emanick]

Back to the origin of this debate, to prevent it taking over the next 3-5 pages, giving the gold to Bozzock was a poor way to end the conflict, given that it caused more conflict and gave a lot of money to a violent corrupt group of people.
Also, was Bozzack 19th level? That seems way to high.

A plan that probably would have turned out very bad had incredibly unlikely events not happened is still a bad plan.

I actually agree with you that it was a pretty bad plan. My point was that on the whole, due to luck, it turned out all right. (And to be fair, I wouldn't call Bozzok deciding to go after Haley as soon as he could with all of his resources an incredibly unlikely event - and if he tried it, there was a pretty good chance of him dying.)

We know he was around 19th level - or higher - because Haley was level 15+ at the time, and he explicitly alludes to the fact that the 4+ levels he has on her allows him to Sneak Attack her.

Im with Haley on team "Hank is talking out of his butt". There may be a power struggle, but the resulting authority would still come from within the guild itself, and given Bozzok's apparent violent nature (to say nothing of the fact that Crystal lives there) its hard to believe the TG wasn't already causing bloodshed in the streets whenever they felt like it.

There's no way to prove that Hank was telling the truth, so I can't prove that you're wrong here, but I read the strip as portraying him being in earnest. And I'm pretty sure that the 'MOBs' Hank alludes to aren't actually part of the Thieves' Guild; they're rival factions. So yeah, after the power struggle is over, the true power in the city might be the MOBs, not the Guild.

Also, as Fyraltari correctly pointed out, power struggles among criminal organizations almost always lead to an increase of violence. Unless the net result of chaos in the Thieves' Guild is a) a more benevolent Thieves' Guild and b) a Thieves' Guild that is still more powerful than the "even worse" MOBs (again, assuming they genuinely are worse), the chaos won't actually be helpful to the city's people.

As it happens, I think Haley hit on a pretty good solution, and have said as much several times: get what you need out of the agreement that's been imposed on you, maybe make a nominal payment if you can't avoid it, skip town once you've gotten everything you need (stealing back what you can of what you've already paid), and then once you're effectively out of reach, stop funding the mafia.

What you don't do is cleave to the bad agreement that funds the mafia.

Disclaimer: none of the above is or should be taken as legal advice.

Too late. Wish me luck!

In my first year of law school, I had a ConLaw professor who opened his first lecture with a spiel - drawn in large part from Burke, now that I think about it - about how in modern states constitutions and laws are made largely by and for lawyers, that lawyers by virtue of this and of their overrepresentation in governments are a ruling class in some senses, and thus that lawyers thus had a responsibility to be attentive to the public ramifications of what they do, even in private transactions.

Anecdotal evidence is not dispositive of anything, but I highly doubt Celia never encountered some version of this idea.

It's possible that she did not. Lawyers seem to have less power in the OOTSverse than they do in the real world.

[Ruck]

Celia is pretty naive, though. Would she have predicted those results?

Yes, she is; no, she wouldn't have; both are the reasons she shouldn't have assumed the authority to make those decisions.

(Beyond that, pretty much agree with zimmerwald. Also, I think Haley probably did have to make some payment before the Thieves Guild helped her get Roy's body back.)

[Peelee]

Lawyers seem to have less power in the OOTSverse than they do in the real world.

I blame clerics.

[Kish]

It's possible that she did not. Lawyers seem to have less power in the OOTSverse than they do in the real world.

I, meanwhile, would say it's almost certain that she did not for the simple reason that none of her professors are at all likely to have given her specific advice that wouldn't be thought of by one specific person who went to art school, not law school.

[woweedd]

I blame clerics.

Celia's actually well-qualified for the Lawyer/Paladin multiclass, which is great because the two classes' behavioral restrictions tend to conflict. Plus, it allows you to use legal texts as holy items. Nothing like banishing a skeleton using a copy of the 1990 California Tax Code.

[Peelee]

Celia's actually well-qualified for the Lawyer/Paladin multiclass, which is great because the two classes' behavioral restrictions tend to conflict. Plus, it allows you to use legal texts as holy items. Nothing like banishing a skeleton using a copy of the 1990 California Tax Code.

Yes, but who will do the clerical work?

[woweedd]

Yes, but who will do the clerical work?

I mean, what is a Paladin, but a Fighter with Cleric Spells stapled to them, mechanically-speaking?

[RatElemental]

I mean, what is a Paladin, but a Fighter with Cleric Spells stapled to them, mechanically-speaking?

Paladins differ from fighters in a lot of ways, most notably in that they can smite things instead of getting 15 feats.

[zimmerwald1915]

I mean, what is a Paladin, but a Fighter with Cleric Spells stapled to them, mechanically-speaking?

A miserable little pile of secrets?

[Heksefatter]

Still evil, but measurable in hekto- or dekanazis now.

[Ruck]

I, meanwhile, would say it's almost certain that she did not for the simple reason that none of her professors are at all likely to have given her specific advice that wouldn't be thought of by one specific person who went to art school, not law school.

Eh... If you're referring to Rich, he's written lots of characters who have professions and experiences he doesn't in real life. If the class zimmerwald is referring to is the sort of thing that's broadly common among 1Ls, it's reasonable to think Celia would have taken it.

[Keltest]

Eh... If you're referring to Rich, he's written lots of characters who have professions and experiences he doesn't in real life. If the class zimmerwald is referring to is the sort of thing that's broadly common among 1Ls, it's reasonable to think Celia would have taken it.

I don't, not necessarily because of Rich, but because clearly the OOTS world lacks a lawyer class managing the legal code. Apparently there are only two fully trained lawyers in the entire world. Therefore it stands to reason that she was not instructed on how lawyers are a ruling class, because they aren't a class at all.

[Ruck]

I don't, not necessarily because of Rich, but because clearly the OOTS world lacks a lawyer class managing the legal code. Apparently there are only two fully trained lawyers in the entire world. Therefore it stands to reason that she was not instructed on how lawyers are a ruling class, because they aren't a class at all.

I think that's also possible, but there's a lot of OOTS-world we don't see, particularly among the non-adventuring types, and there are at least enough lawyers and demand for lawyers for law schools to exist.

[Peelee]

I don't, not necessarily because of Rich, but because clearly the OOTS world lacks a lawyer class managing the legal code. Apparently there are only two fully trained lawyers in the entire world. Therefore it stands to reason that she was not instructed on how lawyers are a ruling class, because they aren't a class at all.

You know why the most common legal information given is "don't talk to the police without a lawyer?" There are more laws than you can imagine. Chances are you break a law every day. There are a huge number of specialties, because nobody expects any one person to have a working grasp on any significant fraction of the law. D&D will never have anywhere near the complexity of the legal systems; a DM trying to make a complex, labyrinthine faustian contract may as well be a crayon drawing compared to how contract law actually works.

While I agree with you that Stickworld most likely has no lawyer class, it's just as fantasy-based as enormous flying lizards who can talk, cast magical spells, and shoot various elemental powers of of their mouths.

[RatElemental]

I don't, not necessarily because of Rich, but because clearly the OOTS world lacks a lawyer class managing the legal code. Apparently there are only two fully trained lawyers in the entire world. Therefore it stands to reason that she was not instructed on how lawyers are a ruling class, because they aren't a class at all.

The class used for lawyers in DND would probably be expert. 6+Int mod points and they get to pick any ten skills to be class skills. That's plenty of room to take ranks in Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Nobility and royalty), Diplomacy, Bluff, Decipher Script, Sense Motive, Intimidate, a couple languages and a couple hobbies on the side.

[KorvinStarmast]

Better Call Saul Celia!

Ooh, good one. (Yes, my wife and I are both looking forward to the next season).

Once he had a cat and it was a gas
Soon turned out he had a heart of brass
Seemed like the real thing only to find
Durkon's soul, friend's gone behind.

A good start, but I am having trouble fitting the two sandwiches and the mackerel into a lyric that doesn't mess up the beat. (So no, I am not a Bard in real life).

In my first year of law school, I had a ConLaw professor who opened his first lecture with a spiel - drawn in large part from Burke, now that I think about it - about how in modern states constitutions and laws are made largely by and for lawyers, that lawyers by virtue of this and of their overrepresentation in governments are a ruling class in some senses, and thus that lawyers thus had a responsibility to be attentive to the public ramifications of what they do, even in private transactions.

Anecdotal evidence is not dispositive of anything, but I highly doubt Celia never encountered some version of this idea.

I arrived at a similar conclusion in the late 1980's after taking a few business law and a con law classes during part of a masters degree. ( I did not attend law school). Interesting to hear that at least one law prof fits into the "self aware" category.

(And you have reminded me that I am behind on my reading list, Burke still being in the pile "to be read ..." )

[martianmister]

Which is really funny. Because she takes the money from Haley and gives it to a bunch of thieves who also murder people.

—Caerulea

They suppose to use that money to revive the people killed that day. She might be an idealist, but not a hypocrite.

[zimmerwald1915]

They suppose to use that money to revive the people killed that day.

Who will then go on to shake down, murder, and assassinate people.