OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

[Keltest]

Dorukan's Gate was protected with his belief in wizardry; "he spent years warding his gate with the most powerful sigils he could imagine." His gate was destroyed first by a sorcerer (and we know how wizards in OOTS feel about sorcerers) brute-forcing his way through, and then by one of the sigils that could only be activated by someone pure of heart being activated by a doofus to blow it up.

Soon's Gate was protected by the Sapphire Guard, founded under the philosophy that only the honor of a Paladin is unbreakable; his gate was destroyed by a member of his Sapphire Guard gone rogue.

Girard's Gate was protected by illusions, but also by his belief that one could only trust family; his protections were destroyed by Familicide, a weakness in relying only on family that he did not anticipate.

Dorukan's gate was lost not because of a failure of the power of wizardry, but because Dorukan charged out of his defenses which he spent years preparing like an idiot, fought Xykon on his own terms, and didn't even take advantage of the primary strength of the wizard IE the ability to tailor your spells for a specific encounter. It was lost specifically because Dorukan didn't use the powers of wizardry at his disposal.

Soon's gate was lost because of a massive hobgoblin invasion that could not reasonably have been predicted, give they came from another continent. That Miko struck the decisive blow is beside the point, because by then the battle had been lost.

And Gerard's gate was lost because of what was, frankly, a freak and random event. Theres no possible way he could have predicted an epic spell of a dead wizard would come to target his bloodline by incident. For bonus irony, Xykon only found Gerard's gate because Gerard trusted somebody outside his family with its location.

[Fish]

In the story of the Gates as told, Serini built her Gate to reflect Kraagor's belief in physical might.

Look again. It doesn't actually say that.

She decided that she would build a tomb for Kraagor, and fill it with the nastiest monsters in the world, to reflect his belief in the power of physical might.

Of course, it's heavily implied, coming immediately after the building of 3 of the other Gates, and it's probably — nay, almost definitely — the case that the Gate is behind all the big bad monsters. Nevertheless, it doesn't actually specifically say so in that strip.

[Fyraltari]

Dorukan's gate was lost not because of a failure of the power of wizardry, but because Dorukan charged out of his defenses which he spent years preparing like an idiot, fought Xykon on his own terms, and didn't even take advantage of the primary strength of the wizard IE the ability to tailor your spells for a specific encounter. It was lost specifically because Dorukan didn't use the powers of wizardry at his disposal.

What do you mean?

Soon's gate was lost because of a massive hobgoblin invasion that could not reasonably have been predicted, give they came from another continent. That Miko struck the decisive blow is beside the point, because by then the battle had been lost.

The hobgoblin army was not from another continent it was from a neighbouring region and their attack wasn't random since Redcloak (and their troops had beef specifically with Azure City). Also without Miko Shoo would have killed Redcloak and Xykon here and there, and while thet would not have won the battle by itself it would have saved the Gate. Haley then could have met with the fleet and and a counterattack could have been organized without having to worry about Team Evil.

And Gerard's gate was lost because of what was, frankly, a freak and random event. Theres no possible way he could have predicted an epic spell of a dead wizard would come to target his bloodline by incident. For bonus irony, Xykon only found Gerard's gate because Gerard trusted somebody outside his family with its location.

So? The point remains that if he hadn't focused on family only his Gate would have stood (or at least had a better chance to). Freak accidents happens and Girard should have been better prepared.
EDIT: his gate was literally the only one would could have fallen this way, if the OotScribble had joined forces then their Gates would have withstood what fell them.

[Keltest]

What do you mean?


The hobgoblin army was not from another continent it was from a neighbouring region and their attack wasn't random since Redcloak (and their troops had beef specifically with Azure City). Also without Miko Shoo would have killed Redcloak and Xykon here and there, and while thet would not have won the battle by itself it would have saved the Gate. Haley then could have met with the fleet and and a counterattack could have been organized without having to worry about Team Evil.


So? The point remains that if he hadn't focused on family only his Gate would have stood (or at least had a better chance to). Freak accidents happens and Girard should have been better prepared.
EDIT: his gate was literally the only one would could have fallen this way, if the OotScribble had joined forces then their Gates would have withstood what fell them.

Ok, lets be clear here. There is a difference between their defenses being fundamentally flawed (which Lirian's was. Undead and freak fires are not sufficiently uncommon that she should have failed to plan for them) and simply being defeated. Dorukan outright abandoned his defenses, which is why he lost. Xykon was otherwise unable to make any progress against him whatsoever. Soon's gate was simply overwhelmed by ludicrous hostile forces. Dorukan was likewise stuck by something that nobody could have possibly predicted would be on the field; vulnerability to a highly specific form of magic that literally was not possessed by any living or undead mage is not something one should be held accounted for.

[Peelee]

Soon's Gate was protected by the Sapphire Guard, founded under the philosophy that only the honor of a Paladin is unbreakable; his gate was destroyed by a member of his Sapphire Guard gone rogue.

Yeah, but not by a paladin. Heyo!

[Ruck]

Dorukan's gate was lost not because of a failure of the power of wizardry, but because Dorukan charged out of his defenses which he spent years preparing like an idiot, fought Xykon on his own terms, and didn't even take advantage of the primary strength of the wizard IE the ability to tailor your spells for a specific encounter. It was lost specifically because Dorukan didn't use the powers of wizardry at his disposal.

Soon's gate was lost because of a massive hobgoblin invasion that could not reasonably have been predicted, give they came from another continent. That Miko struck the decisive blow is beside the point, because by then the battle had been lost.

And Gerard's gate was lost because of what was, frankly, a freak and random event. Theres no possible way he could have predicted an epic spell of a dead wizard would come to target his bloodline by incident. For bonus irony, Xykon only found Gerard's gate because Gerard trusted somebody outside his family with its location.

Literally nothing you wrote refutes what I wrote; you just wrote "other things happened too."

Look again. It doesn't actually say that.

Of course, it's heavily implied, coming immediately after the building of 3 of the other Gates, and it's probably — nay, almost definitely — the case that the Gate is behind all the big bad monsters. Nevertheless, it doesn't actually specifically say so in that strip.

I would be surprised if it turns out that Shojo not explicitly saying "Kraagor's Tomb contains Kraagor's Gate" turns out to be the clue that the Gate is not actually there.

[Keltest]

Literally nothing you wrote refutes what I wrote; you just wrote "other things happened too."


I would be surprised if it turns out that Shojo not explicitly saying "Kraagor's Tomb contains Kraagor's Gate" turns out to be the clue that the Gate is not actually there.

If your point is "they were defeated by things that could defeat them" then yes, technically you are correct. That tautology is not much of a theme though. If that isn't your point, Lirina's gate is the only one that was defeated by a foreseeable weakness in the defense strategy, all of the others were defeated either by incorrectly or insufficiently applying their defensive principal except for Gerard's gate, which could not possibly have foreseen the need to defend against that spell.

[LadyEowyn]

In the broad perspective, Soon’s gate was lost because many of his “unbreakably honourable” paladins committed atrocities; and because, in narrower perspective, one of the the paladins Fell, refused to condider that her Fall might indicate that she was wrong, and destroyed the Gate as a result.

Girard’s gate was lost at least partially because the only people he had guarding it were his family, because he believed only his family could be trusted.

So I agree that the Gates generally fell because of flaws in their guardians’ beliefs.

[Cirin]

Nah, you can't fit "Loki sucks" in there.

For reals, though, why would Serini want to build something like that in?

It would be a huge fake-out if the actual gate was hidden beneath the statue, well shielded, instead of one of the myriad death-trap dungeons that it LOOKS like it should be in.

[Keltest]

It would be a huge fake-out if the actual gate was hidden beneath the statue, well shielded, instead of one of the myriad death-trap dungeons that it LOOKS like it should be in.

While this is technically true, such a fakeout only weakens the gates defenses. Haley even explains how such a double bluff could backfire.

[Fyraltari]

Ok, lets be clear here. There is a difference between their defenses being fundamentally flawed (which Lirian's was. Undead and freak fires are not sufficiently uncommon that she should have failed to plan for them) and simply being defeated. Dorukan outright abandoned his defenses, which is why he lost. Xykon was otherwise unable to make any progress against him whatsoever. Soon's gate was simply overwhelmed by ludicrous hostile forces. Dorukan was likewise stuck by something that nobody could have possibly predicted would be on the field; vulnerability to a highly specific form of magic that literally was not possessed by any living or undead mage is not something one should be held accounted for.

The fact they refused to cooperate was the fundamental flaw in their logic. The point isn't "relying purely on magic is wrong. Here's why: ", "relying purely on nature is wrong. Here's why: " and "relying purely on family is wrong. Here's why: " the point is "relying solely on one tactic is wrong because you cannot foresee everythin". Soon did not foresee the existence of Familicide but the Sapphire Guard would have been impervious to it, Lirian's virus would have taken out most of the hobgblin's army power, Dorukan's wards would have stopped Miko, Girard would (probably, I am kind of reaching here, I'll admit) have known better than to lock the bad guys without supervision, Having a team with him would have allowed Dorukan's Gate to still be defended when he died, etc.

Also again, Soon's Gate was only ever in danger from four people: O-Chul, Redcloak, Xykon and Miko I've already explained why without Miko the Gate would not have been destroyed. That Familiced wasn't a known variable is no excuses when litterally any other strategy wuld have made it irrelevant to protecting the Gates.

[Sir_Norbert]

And Gerard's gate was lost because of what was, frankly, a freak and random event. Theres no possible way he could have predicted an epic spell of a dead wizard would come to target his bloodline by incident.

I think you're missing the point that's being made. It's not "the Scribblers were all fools who had the wrong ideas", but "there is a pattern in the narrative, and we can use that to make predictions". Four out of four gates so far were undone in the end by an element of their own defences -- yes, in ways the Scribblers couldn't have predicted, but still a clear pattern.

That pattern is there because the gates needed to fall to drive the narrative forward, and having them fall in ironic ways makes for a more satisfying narrative. That doesn't mean any of the Scribblers had the wrong idea; it just means their plans and resources weren't perfect.

[Keltest]

I think you're missing the point that's being made. It's not "the Scribblers were all fools who had the wrong ideas", but "there is a pattern in the narrative, and we can use that to make predictions". Four out of four gates so far were undone in the end by an element of their own defences -- yes, in ways the Scribblers couldn't have predicted, but still a clear pattern.

That pattern is there because the gates needed to fall to drive the narrative forward, and having them fall in ironic ways makes for a more satisfying narrative. That doesn't mean any of the Scribblers had the wrong idea; it just means their plans and resources weren't perfect.

I will say again, "they were defeated by things that could defeat them" is a tautology, but not a theme. Of course what defeated them got around their defenses, you cant defeat them without doing that.

[Endarire]

"Is that an artifact in your drawers? Are you just happy to see me?"

[woweedd]

I will say again, "they were defeated by things that could defeat them" is a tautology, but not a theme. Of course what defeated them got around their defenses, you cant defeat them without doing that.

Again, the point isthat they focused on their own specificity to the exclusion of others, which is why they failed. It's one of the main themes of the comic: Co-operation is good, and going it alone, thinking only you know what is best, is a great way to get ****ed up.

[Keltest]

Again, the point isthat they focused on their own specificity to the exclusion of others, which is why they failed. It's one of the main themes of the comic: Co-operation is good, and going it alone, thinking only you know what is best, is a great way to get ****ed up.

Right, but most of them didn't fail because they focused on their own specialties. Lirian and Gerard were the only ones who failed due to something intrinsic to their defenses, and the thing that got Gerard came completely out of left field.

[The MunchKING]

Interesting question. In the story of the Gates as told, Serini built her Gate to reflect Kraagor's belief in physical might. I wouldn't be surprised if it also included an element of deception (as Serini is a rogue), or something else that might make the gate less straightforward than it appears-- although I would reject the idea that the Gate is hidden somewhere that isn't behind fearsome monsters, just that there's more to it than that.

My idea on the subject was if you have enough money to build a mountain out of magic-unopbtainium with plot powers to keep all your monsters in, why would you put a switch or the gate at the end of ONE tunnel, where in theory someone could get lucky and go down that one first and find the switch?

I would put a switch at the end of EVERY tunnel, and they ALL have to be flipped (maybe into a specific pattern) to reveal the Gate. That also fits with the "Brute force is what Kraagor would have respected" philosophy, while because you HID the switches at the end of each and didn't write down that this was the gimmick, lets your Rogue chops do some work protecting the Gate too.

[The Pilgrim]

While all the Gates got destroyed because their planned defense was not perfect, I do not really see the pattern in "they were defeated because of flaws in the philosophy of their defenses".

SOD Spoilers:

Spoiler

Show

- Lirian believed in the forces of nature. They did a pretty good job. Too bad an Epic-Level Elven Druid like Lirian did never took the time to learn about how Liches worked so she could have avoided to get steam-rolled by one. That the druids actually forgot to protect the tree-men against fire was actually a fortunate event, because the Gate was already lost at that point.

- Dorukan believed in the power of magic. And he was doing fine resisting Xykon's siege, until Xykon taunted him with Lirian's imprisoned spirit. So, Dorukan was defeated because he lowered his guard in order to save a loved one, rather than his magic defenses being not strong enough.

Even after Dorukan was defeated, the sigil protecting the Gate itself actually worked in preventing Xykon from gaining access to it, and allowed Roy to actually defeat the Lich by thowing him into the Sigil. The Gate got destroyed when Elan activated the Self-Destruct mechanism. So, magic did not fail Dorukan. Not being able to foresee Elan's stupidity did.

- Soon's Gate. "Only the Honor of a Paladin is Unbreakable". Okay Soon, you only believed in the honor of Paladins. Then, maybe you shouldn't have released command of the Shappire Guard to the civil authorities of the City, who were not paladins. Soon did defeat his own philosophy himself. As crazy and an horrible person Miko was, the Guard's Code kept her in line until she saw his Liege, who was not a paladin and not even Lawful, breaking it. I am not shifting responsibility for Shojo's murder away from Miko, but you can't blame that the Honor of The Paladins failed when they were being suckered by their own chaotic-aligned non-paladin commander.

- Giriand believed in the power of deception. He only trusted family. He failed to foresee that some random wizard would strike a deal with three devils, gain access to an obscure Epic-Level spell and use it on a black dragon related to his family line. In any case, what failed Giriard was his paranoia, not the power of deception.

[Fyraltari]

Right, but most of them didn't fail because they focused on their own specialties. Lirian and Gerard were the only ones who failed due to something intrinsic to their defenses, and the thing that got Gerard came completely out of left field.

Girard is spelled with an i.

Again Soon's Gate fell because of how it was defended and that Familicide came out of left field is irrelevant.

[Keltest]

Girard is spelled with an i.

Again Soon's Gate fell because of how it was defended and that Familicide came out of left field is irrelevant.

My spellchecker wants to spell it with an E, and you could have defended Soon's gate with a mixed army of a variety of different classes and techniques, and it still would have fallen because internal sabotage doesn't care what color your armor is. The flaw was not in his technique.

[LadyEowyn]

My spellchecker wants to spell it with an E, and you could have defended Soon's gate with a mixed army of a variety of different classes and techniques, and it still would have fallen because internal sabotage doesn't care what color your armor is. The flaw was not in his technique.

In the longer run, Soon’s gate did fall because of the Sappire Guard. The Sapphire Guard is why Redcloak became a villain, and he’s the reason for 1) Xykon learning about the Gates and 2) the giant hobgoblin army.

[Hemoparty]

Frankly, I enjoy the pattern of "the Gates fell in ironic ways" too much to discard it just because the flaws in their guiding philosophies weren't the only reason they fell. That said, I'm pretty willing to see it as "there is no single, perfectly right path" as opposed to "all of these ideas just suck".

[Ruck]

If your point is "they were defeated by things that could defeat them" then yes, technically you are correct. That tautology is not much of a theme though. If that isn't your point, Lirina's gate is the only one that was defeated by a foreseeable weakness in the defense strategy, all of the others were defeated either by incorrectly or insufficiently applying their defensive principal except for Gerard's gate, which could not possibly have foreseen the need to defend against that spell.

My point was exactly what I said it was. You started adding in a bunch of stuff about how my point is only valid if you consider the events foreseeable, which has nothing to do with what I said.

[Aveline]

Girard's Gate was protected by illusions, but also by his belief that one could only trust family; his protections were destroyed by Familicide, a weakness in relying only on family that he did not anticipate.

I won't fight you on Dorukan and Soon's gates, but Familicide does not strike me as a foreseeable threat which one could reasonably caution against. Perhaps Familicide played a role in the poetry, but I think cynicism is the main undoer which, um, undid the Gate (by leaving it out in the open to be taken by who the heck ever, because they deliberately had no allies).

[Keltest]

My point was exactly what I said it was. You started adding in a bunch of stuff about how my point is only valid if you consider the events foreseeable, which has nothing to do with what I said.

Ok, hows this then? The patterns you think are there would seem to be there no matter how they were actually defeated. What you are actually seeing is that they were defeated at all; their defeat happened in spite of their personal plans, not because of them, with the exception of Lirian. Girard is an odd case in that his defenses fell in an unrelated incident, which I guess looks like an ironic result of his defenses if you squint.

[Aveline]

Here is another take on Girard's Dorukan's gate:

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

Although he may have looked down on sorcerers for relying on emotions to produce magic (that's the given reason for the institutional prejudice, right?), Girard Dorukan was coaxed from safety by Xykon playing at his emotions.

[Rrmcklin]

I won't fight you on Dorukan and Soon's gates, but Familicide does not strike me as a foreseeable threat which one could reasonably caution against. Perhaps Familicide played a role in the poetry, but I think cynicism is the main undoer which, um, undid the Gate (by leaving it out in the open to be taken by who the heck ever, because they deliberately had no allies).

Familicide itself was in no way predictable, but if the Draketooths hadn't been so insular and paranoid there could have at least been other people standing guard or alerted to what happened.

No guarantee that the Gate still wouldn't have fell, but something to keep in mind.

[Aveline]

Familicide itself was in no way predictable, but if the Draketooths hadn't been so insular and paranoid there could have at least been other people standing guard or alerted to what happened.

No guarantee that the Gate still wouldn't have fell, but something to keep in mind.

Um, that was exactly my point.

[factotum]

Interesting question. In the story of the Gates as told, Serini built her Gate to reflect Kraagor's belief in physical might. I wouldn't be surprised if it also included an element of deception (as Serini is a rogue), or something else that might make the gate less straightforward than it appears

Isn't the idea of having hundreds of doors, each of which could lead to the Gate but all of which lead to horrible death-dealing monsters, already a significant level of deception? If Serini's defences were entirely about physical strength then she'd have only one dungeon full of monsters with the Gate at the end of it, but we already know that's not what she did.

[Keltest]

Isn't the idea of having hundreds of doors, each of which could lead to the Gate but all of which lead to horrible death-dealing monsters, already a significant level of deception? If Serini's defences were entirely about physical strength then she'd have only one dungeon full of monsters with the Gate at the end of it, but we already know that's not what she did.

Honestly, my expectation is that it isn't in any of the caves. She went through the effort to modify the terrain, why should she leave the gate open to the air? I think the cave with the gate in it is completely sealed off.