OOTS #1157 - The Discussion Thread.

[KorvinStarmast]

Notice the people who said they would apologise if a plan was shown have... not apologised and tried to start fights again

Give it time. It'll be Phantom Menace soon enough.

Or The Phantom, Ennis ...

[Jasdoif]

Give it time. It'll be Phantom Menace soon enough.

Vampire Menace, I think. Or maybe Dennis?

[Verappo]

Or The Phantom, Ennis ...

His name is ERIK and he lives under an opera stage, thank you 😁

[Ganbatte]

Notice the people who said they would apologise if a plan was shown have... not apologised and tried to start fights again

That discussion wasn't about the mortal defenses that were bound to be present at the meeting but rather the existance of Dvalin, a demigod, standing above all this process and thus theoretically in charge of making sure the vote was legitimate and represented the will of the council as per his oath.

Nothing that this strip tells us about the barriers addresses that, so the doubts about the plan that were explained back then are still all here.

Also nobody ever talked about apologizing, but changing one's mind. There's nothing to apologize for here even if that theory was proven incorrect as it was just a theory.
It seems you're the one who's trying to start a fight, albeit quite unsuccesfully.

[KorvinStarmast]

His name is ERIK and he lives under an opera stage, thank you 😁

Reminds me of an old joke having to do with white horse whisky

A white horse walks into a bar, sits down, and orders a pint of Theakston's Best.
Barman looks at the horse and says "You know, we have a whisky here named after you."
The horse looks at him, eyes wide, and says "What, you've a whisky named Eric?"

Jokes told to one on a golf course by a drunk Australian 20 years ago ... may or may not do well on the internet.

[Ruck]

Some people above did not read the strip carefully. The blue barrier doesn't just prevent (by turning to stone) people from attacking or casting spells, it does that for any one violating Dwarven law. That would I suspect, include casting Silence and probably some other actions proposed above. Most likely even breaking the ceiling to let in sunlight, since that damages property. Now maybe the ceiling could be broken from outside and that wouldn't trigger the barrier spell.

Re: My bolded. Possibly, but maybe not. I think it's intentional, in a plot that's about rules-lawyering, that the Ex-Exarch mentions "attacking ... any creature" but not the structure itself.

[gerryq]

I don't doubt that removing the roof of the chamber and letting in the sunshine would work, but is there enough time for that?

Well, we did get a reminder that we are near the surface - and while that's not the only way it could be relevant, it is one way

[Ganbatte]

So you agree with us that the vampires plan is not idiotic since
A)they know about the barriers and how they work
B)they have obviously planned around that
Of course as per usual you will not admit you got it wrong and just say it was ‘for fun’ despite your personal attacks

Read the post above. It appears to me you didn't quite understand what we were talking about.

[Ruck]

Reminds me of an old joke having to do with white horse whisky

A white horse walks into a bar, sits down, and orders a pint of Theakston's Best.
Barman looks at the horse and says "You know, we have a whisky here named after you."
The horse looks at him, eyes wide, and says "What, you've a whisky named Eric?"

Jokes told to one on a golf course by a drunk Australian 20 years ago ... may or may not do well on the internet.

I've heard this one before, too, but about a grasshopper named Steve.

[Xyril]

Of course as per usual you will not admit you got it wrong and just say it was ‘for fun’ despite your personal attacks

I have no idea what the backstory behind this is, and what has shown up on this thread has given me zero motivation to revisit the previous ones and find out, but if you guys are going to dredge up history on this thread, maybe include links supporting whatever allegations you're making. (Or just start reporting each other and let the mods sort it all out.) I am admittedly only seeing the most recent portion of whatever conflict this is, and you're... not painting your position in the most favorable light.

[Mandor]

Logically then, all the Order needs to do is ensure the phrasing of the question is reversed.

"Should the gods destroy the world?"
to
"Should the gods continue to try to contain the Snarl in this world?"

And then the Exarch will have been massively hoist by his own petard.
Of course, exactly how you'd get the question to BE reversed.... when the gods themselves are that tightly divided on the outcome.... difficult to see a path.

[zimmerwald1915]

By Odin's Beard, Gontor IS the most Evil of life-forms: A Lawyer!

You aren't wrong, but it still hurts to hear.

[alwaysbebatman]

His name is ERIK and he lives under an opera stage, thank you 😁

He has a name, Karen!

[Ganbatte]

I have no idea what the backstory behind this is, and what has shown up on this thread has given me zero motivation to revisit the previous ones and find out, but if you guys are going to dredge up history on this thread, maybe include links supporting whatever allegations you're making. (Or just start reporting each other and let the mods sort it all out.) I am admittedly only seeing the most recent portion of whatever conflict this is, and you're... not painting your position in the most favorable light.

Basically a few strips ago there were a number of people, me included, who aired their doubts about the validity of the vampire's plan as it seemed to hinge on either Dvalin being "a little too dumb to notice" (I'm paraphrasing here for brevity) the vampire's domination effect or him being unwilling to care or do anything despite said manipulation going theoretically against his "representing the will of the council" oath that he's supposed to protect.

We discussed this for 30 or so pages with a good number of people sharing or not sharing these doubts, and eventually came to a stall given the lack of information.

Now we got a bit more of information about the security measures the dwarves put in place, but that still doesn't address Dvalin's demigod presence over the whole process and in what way this can go past him in a convincing matter.

Maybe he doesn't care, maybe he doesn't know, maybe something else. So far we're still in that stall as far as I'm concerned.

[alwaysbebatman]

Indirectly it does address it. "All of these safeguards are in place to avoid coersion or outside interference on the Council vote.... Good enough for me!"

It's not certain that's Dvalin's rationale, but it seems likely at this point.

[Ganbatte]

Indirectly it does address it. "All of these safeguards are in place to avoid coersion or outside interference on the Council vote.... Good enough for me!"

It's not certain that's Dvalin's rationale, but it seems likely at this point.

Perhaps, but that would make Dvalin more akin to an IRC bot than an actual demigod supposedly in charge of his people, no?
Receiving a "yes" and mindlessly enacting protocol no questions asked.

One way I could buy this was if he put those barriers in place himself, as a demigod, and so had an ultimately wrong confidence they would prevent any interference thus not needing any further inquiry in the validity of the vote.
But if we go at it another way this would mean that Dvalin is against outside interference, which includes Hel, which would make the vote invalid.

Dunno, my point is that I'm not seeing how the presence of these barriers ends the concerns raised in the previous discussion.

[Xyril]

Logically then, all the Order needs to do is ensure the phrasing of the question is reversed.

"Should the gods destroy the world?"
to
"Should the gods continue to try to contain the Snarl in this world?"

And then the Exarch will have been massively hoist by his own petard.
Of course, exactly how you'd get the question to BE reversed.... when the gods themselves are that tightly divided on the outcome.... difficult to see a path.

It seems like the rules would disallow it. In pretty much any real life legislative process, precise phrasing is very important--ideally, we get to a resolution that best reflects the will of the body by changing the language until we get a specific law or statement that a majority can get behind. As others have argued, if it's reasonable to expect Dvalin to follow the result of a corrupted vote, that implies that he's either unaware the vote was subverted, or he feels so bound to follow the letter of the rules that he will abide by the vote despite any personal misgivings. The latter in particular would imply that he probably wouldn't break any procedural rules that exist. In particular, since the Godsmoot formulated the vote as a particularly worded proposition decided specifically by a simple up-down vote, changing the wording of the proposition to have the opposite meaning seems like precisely the sort of procedural shenanigans you'd want to have a rule against.

Moreover, while your second option would naturally preclude the original proposition--can't contain the Snarl in this world if you destroy it tomorrow--it's not strictly speaking the logical opposite. There are other options beyond "containing the Snarl in this world until the next vote" and "destroying the world immediately." They all probably suck, but they logically exist. It's like asking, "Do you vote for candidate A for this position?" and then turning around and saying "Okay, I'm entering the guys who voted 'No' as voting 'Yes' on supporting candidate B for this position, since he's the only other viable candidate." It's just not the same, and even if there's no other candidate, viable or not, politics can be weird, and someone unwilling to vote to support one option might not be willing to be seen affirmatively supporting the opposite proposition.

[woweedd]

You aren't wrong, but it still hurts to hear.

You know, I was considering putting in a note to the effect of "No Offense, Zim" preemptively. Suffice to say, though I disagree with you on...many things, I can't deny you do good work, even if you given profession requires you be Lawful Neutral in action, even if Lawful Good in intent.

[Seward]

I'm even more convinced now that Durkon is going to destroy the chamber roof and let the sun in. After all, the rules only specify that you get turned to stone if you attack a creature.

That elder was complaining about how close to the surface the council chamber was.

So your theory isn't impossible. Disintegrate removes a 10x10x10 cube. On one adventure (with 6 level 15ish arcanists) two of the sorcerers on the team had the spell and we just burned a hole right through the top of the dungeon (about 70', so just a few mid level slots for each sorceress), avoiding an elaborate trap/ambush one of the wizards had spotted via wizard-eye.

[Xyril]

Indirectly it does address it. "All of these safeguards are in place to avoid coersion or outside interference on the Council vote.... Good enough for me!"

It's not certain that's Dvalin's rationale, but it seems likely at this point.

You know, this reminds me of a lot of the nuclear-war fiction (and military fiction in general) out there: We have a lot of safeguards to protect the chain of command, but ultimately it's up to the last guys in the chain to determine whether to act. If those guys have imperfect knowledge, should they be expected to assume that those safeguards all worked, and follow orders despite any personal misgivings, or should they be allowed to draw from their own outside knowledge to draw their own conclusions about whether those safeguards failed?

The Giant had depicted some dwarves as comically over-adherent to rules, but this hardly seems an appropriate place to revisit that gag. To me, the edge of plausibility would be that Dvalin worries that Hel will succeed in corrupting the vote, but will feel bound not to act on that suspicion absent specific proof. After all, we're all hoping that the dwarves will want vote "no," as is the Order; the fact that Hel is doing all this to fix the vote implies that she's worried that the dwarves might vote "no" (or that the heroes sharing her plan with them would cause them to do so), but it doesn't necessarily mean that they wouldn't vote yes. After all, we know that the dwarves are very duty-bound, incredibly concerned about the afterlife, and not necessarily the type to think too deeply about things. I can see their vote going either way depending on what information they have. If they're told enough to know that destroying the planet saves souls from oblivion, they'd probably vote yes. If they're told only that doing so would sent them all to Hel, they'd probably vote no. And if they're told both bits of vital information, then who knows? An eternity serving Hel versus a substantial risk of non-existence, something that most beings in this setting never actually have to contemplate? I have no idea what I'd choose given that option. So the mere fact that the dwarves vote to the destroy the world would not be enough to prove that their vote was corrupted by Hel, which leaves Dvalin in a tough spot, barring a Sending from the Council saying, "Hey, so we voted this way, but I strongly suspect like 70% of us are Dominated right now."

[Ruck]

That elder was complaining about how close to the surface the council chamber was.

So your theory isn't impossible. Disintegrate removes a 10x10x10 cube. On one adventure (with 6 level 15ish arcanists) two of the sorcerers on the team had the spell and we just burned a hole right through the top of the dungeon (about 70', so just a few mid level slots for each sorceress), avoiding an elaborate trap/ambush one of the wizards had spotted via wizard-eye.

I was really thinking it would involve Durkon's newfound hammer somehow, although Vaarsuvius having Disintegrate would certainly help.

[Xyril]

That elder was complaining about how close to the surface the council chamber was.

So your theory isn't impossible. Disintegrate removes a 10x10x10 cube.

That would work, but narratively speaking it would be much more satisfying for Durkon to bring the thunder.

[Peelee]

Perhaps, but that would make Dvalin more akin to an IRC bot than an actual demigod supposedly in charge of his people, no?
Receiving a "yes" and mindlessly enacting protocol no questions asked.

If you assume that Dvalin's be-all, end-all point of existence as a demigod is to cast a vote in the event of a tie once every few years, then yes, he would be more akin to an IRC bot than an actual demigod.

If one assumes that he is significantly more than that (as one might expect from a being called a demigod), then one could simply reason out that Dvalin wanted to let the dwarves have a direct say in godly matters (likely due to being shafted by godly matters before), and lets them do their thing.

[Seward]

That would work, but narratively speaking it would be much more satisfying for Durkon to bring the thunder.

Well, Earthquake is a standard Cleric spell.

[woweedd]

Well, Earthquake is a standard Cleric spell.

Your point being...?

[dtilque]

Re: My bolded. Possibly, but maybe not. I think it's intentional, in a plot that's about rules-lawyering, that the Ex-Exarch mentions "attacking ... any creature" but not the structure itself.

Yes, but I have a hard time imagining that Dwarven law doesn't have a law against damage of other people's property. But the turn-to-stone thing probably has to wait until the property is actually damaged, which means Durkon gets one shot at the ceiling and then he's stoned. Better make it his best shot.

Perhaps he and Roy will team up on it. Roy could go outside and wait for the boom of that fancy new hammer. If it doesn't break a hole in the roof, say it just cracks it, Roy could finish the job with his undead sticker.

ETA: Perhaps the the Mechane has something that'll help. It's still up there waiting for their return.

[hroþila]

I'm still on Team This Comic Doesn't Really Change Anything and It Still Doesn't Quite Feel Right Because I Think Dvalin Should Know, and No This Doesn't Mean I Assume Him to Be Omnipotent.

This forum does get a bit weird whenever there's criticism, though (I'm guilty of this too), and everything was already said in the last thread, so I'm not going to go any further than that.

[Hemoparty]

Looks like the Giant anticipated (or read) the arguments about Hel's plan not making that much sense. No word on Dvalin being Lawful Stupid, though.

He also seems to be trolling the Church of the Sudden Skylight with this comic's title, though I could just be jumping the gun and projecting here.

Finally, are the Exarch's fangs supposed to be that odd, vaguely pinkish color? I suppose it makes his chompers look more distinct from his beard, but it weirds me out.

[Kish]

I'm still on Team This Comic Doesn't Really Change Anything and It Still Doesn't Quite Feel Right Because I Think Dvalin Should Know, and No This Doesn't Mean I Assume Him to Be Omnipotent.

Does it mean you assume him to care about any mortals as individuals rather than the abstract concept "I swore to follow the will of the clans," and thus to have any interest in what a member of the council might want to say other than the overall vote? 'Cause I think that might be where the disconnect is here.

(That's speculation. Rich's portrayal of the gods has, thus far, been considerably more negative and cynical than I would prefer, but it appears quite consistent to me.)

[Resileaf]

Finally, are the Exarch's fangs supposed to be that odd, vaguely pinkish color? I suppose it makes his chompers look more distinct from his beard, but it weirds me out.

It's blood-stained fangs.