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2019-03-04, 09:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot
When is Durkon’s level going to be updated? Vampire Durkon cast Symbol of Death, meaning he was level 15 or higher, and with the level reduction, puts him at 13+
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2019-03-04, 09:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot
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2019-03-04, 10:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-03-04, 03:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot
That's a pretty convincing retcon, but re-reading HtPGHS and how it cuts to the scene from SoD right after the "22 years" remark makes it pretty clear that Gin Jun is referring to that episode as occurring 22 years ago. My feeling is that the Giant published canon material which is not internally consistent from a timeline point of view. I believe has has made statements to the effect that it doesn't all work out and that he wasn't thinking about this stuff earlier on.
I'm on the fence about whether I should keep both dates, the "22 years" date, or your retcon in the wiki timeline...
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2019-03-04, 03:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2016
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2019-03-04, 03:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot
Given The Giant's "15 to 16" age clarification for Hinjo is so recent - I think it should be taken into account.
So either "War & XPs Hinjo's age" is wrong - with him (and Miko) being retconned as several years older than their ages in that book suggest, or Gin-Jun's "searching for 22 years" reference needs to be fudged - ruled as referring to the moment they discovered the Cloak was a danger in itself and abandoning it was a mistake - some years after the actual massacre.
IMO it's easier just to fudge Gin-Jun's statement.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2019-03-04, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot
Fudging the statement would actually be somewhat reasonable to make the timeline fit. They might not have known the Mantle was powerful for some time after the raid.
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2019-03-04, 03:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot
I don't event think it needs to be fudged; it reads pretty naturally that way. If ten years ago I found a ring on the beach and tossed it aside, then five years later found out it was a Ring of Three Wishes and went back to look for it, I wouldn't say "for ten years I've been looking for that!"
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2019-03-04, 03:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot
But if you just fudge Hinjo's age in WXP, then you don't need to also fudge Lien's line about how she's older than him. Aging up current-day Hinjo takes care of that little detail.
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2019-03-04, 03:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot
"Fudged" - "reinterpreted" - either way, it's not a hard-and-fast guarantee of the massacre having taken place 22 years before.
No matter what you do, the fact that the anthology is in reverse date order, most recent to least recent, combined with the fact that teenaged Lien in the more recently set Pier Pressure is noticeably shorter than her adult self whereas teenaged Hinjo in Scar is not noticeably shorter, IMO makes "Lien is 5 years older than Hinjo" extremely implausible.
So, at least one published book appears to be getting at least one age retcon. Even if it's just Lien's age that changes.
Given that one of the Sapphire Guard paladins in Pier Pressure looks exactly like an older version of one of the paladins in Scar (same haircut and outfit, but grey streaks) it seems pretty obvious that Pier Pressure is some time after Scar.Last edited by hamishspence; 2019-03-04 at 03:48 PM.
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2019-03-04, 04:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot
There are some people who are adamant that Durkon's vampire uses its own game-mechanical stats and not Durkon's, despite the whole reason Hel made it her High Priest was because it got all of Durkon's Cleric levels. Durkon probably won't be listed as 13+ until we actually see him cast a 7th-level spell post-resurrection
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2019-03-04, 09:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot
On the other hand, Durkon pretty clearly defeated Greg, right? Given the latter’s ECL (or whatever), shouldn’t that be worth a whole mess of experience? Or not...this gets into the whole question of whether in game-mechanical terms Durkon is separate enough from Greg to merit that as an encounter or if Durkon is only getting role playing XP for it.
I don’t think “Durkon may not be the same character as Greg and might not be getting XP that Greg earned” is the same as “Greg didn’t get Durkon’s stats plus the vampire template. I’d submit that if you think it’s even a valid question whether we ought to be awarding XP to Durkon for defeating Greg that we have to question whether “XP works just like it would if Durkon’s (non-existent but that’s neither here nor there) ‘player’ has been role playing Greg this whole time” is an adequate assumption in game mechanical terms.
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2019-03-04, 09:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot
Greg's ECL was so high that it's implausible that he could have gained any significant amount of xp, much less enough to level up. Even killing and converting all those clerics at the Godsmoot probably got him exactly 0 xp because they were more than 8 (effective) levels lower than him. Same for fighting Roy. Greg spawned with the xp Durkon had and faced no combat challenges sufficiently tough to give him xp, so unless he got enough ad hoc roleplaying and quest xp to give him a level just from that, then Durkon was the same level as Greg until his resurrection.
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2019-03-04, 10:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-03-06, 04:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot
So, uh, is there an estimate of the Exarch's level? Since he could cast Gate with a scroll?
Or can any cleric do it?
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2019-03-06, 04:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot
A first-level cleric with Wisdom 19 could possibly make the caster level check to activate the scroll above their own caster level, yes.
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2019-03-06, 04:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-03-06, 04:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot
Sigh.
He's just not going to cast any spells to demonstrate his level, isn't he.
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2019-03-06, 04:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot
Any cleric with 19+ Wis can attempt it, it's a caster level check, with a likely DC of 18, and no major penalty for missing unless he rolls a natural 1 on a separate wisdom check.
Ninja, but I'll leave mine up as the fact that there's little downside to trying is still relevant.Last edited by Doug Lampert; 2019-03-06 at 04:44 PM.
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2019-03-06, 04:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Canadia
Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot
Now I want to know why the Matriarch was carrying around a Gate Scroll.
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2019-03-06, 04:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot
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The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2019-03-06, 04:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-03-07, 09:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot
We know about what caster level Haley’s wand of Magic Missile is. It has 3 missiles in 973, so it’s a 5th or 6th level wand.
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2019-03-07, 05:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot
I think we definitely have to retcon Lien's statement that she's 5 years older than Hinjo. Even aside from the paladin who appears to be the same in both (but older in Lien's story), we know that "Pier Pressure" absolutely must come after "How the Paladin Got his Scar" chronologically, because Lien's a commoner and being recruited into the Sapphire Guard, and the Sapphire Guard didn't recruit commoners before then. And we know that, as of PP, Lien is not yet of the age of majority. That would mean, as an absolute bound, that Hinjo in HtPGhS must be at least five years away from the age of majority, and probably younger yet, which strains credulity. And considering that all of those points are plot-relevant, while the relevance of Lien's statement would be equivalent if she instead said "five years younger", I think that's the obvious choice of what to change.
On Gontor, meanwhile, don't we know that he's at least level 7? He said that he and the other stone clerics constructed the godsmoot cathedral using Stone Shape.Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
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2019-03-07, 07:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot
He doesn't explicitly mention what spell they used, though. However, if that's the lowest spell possible for constructing something out of stone, that's a reasonable lower bound.
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2019-03-08, 01:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot
What are the OOTS's chances against the nightcrawler? It actually seems well-suited to resist them - DR/silver & high SR make it resistant to most spells and attacks (even V has to roll a 14 or higher to beat the SR), undead (immune to most of Elan's abilities and Haley's sneak attack), immune to cold (and therefore Haley's frost bow)... I get the impression Roy's plot-sword will have to save the day (or V will have to get lucky with a few choice spells).
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2019-03-08, 10:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-03-08, 10:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot
Haley does carry silver arrows at least (hence being able to use a silver and a cold iron together against Sabine). It's immune to the extra frost damage, but the physical damage from the arrows themselves, if silver, will work, since magic bows imbue their magic on their ammo.
Doesn't he need a Wis of 19 to be able to activate it at all?
We know he needs to be at least level 13 for the Nightcrawler to be controlled at all when called (2xHD of caster, for single monsters).Last edited by hamishspence; 2019-03-08 at 10:24 AM.
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2019-03-08, 10:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot
Yes. From here:
Originally Posted by d20srd
Quartz isn't wrong inasmuch as the vampire would need a caster level of 17 (assuming that the scroll is the minimum caster level for a ninth level scroll) in order to cast a Gate scroll without a chance of failure, but I don't think anything in the rules suggests that successfully activating the scroll on the first attempt to use it would look any different whether a caster level check was required or not and as such I don't think its successful use of the scroll can really be used to set its minimum character level, at least not in any meaningful way.Last edited by Aeson; 2019-03-08 at 10:42 AM.
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2019-03-08, 01:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot
Except that Stone Shape is only level 3 for clerics, so it gives us the same lower bound as being a vampire in the first place.
Originally Posted by SRD
Because he's given so many orders to the Nightcrawler since it showed up and there is no chance that Hel will assure that it does what they want (hint: It has Int 20, Wis 20, Cha 18 and is undead, it can follow Hel without orders and cooperate with the Exexarch without being under control as well as anyone).Last edited by Doug Lampert; 2019-03-08 at 01:59 PM.