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2019-03-21, 09:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
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2019-03-21, 09:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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2019-03-21, 09:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2019
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- Magrathea
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
By the way, does anyone know how size is applied to snakes and the like?
The Reticulated Python, the world's largest snake, caps out at like 30 or so feet long, I think the record is near 40. Titanoboa, history's largest known snake, is estimated to be about 42 feet long. While thickness grows alongside length, if a creature is twice the length of a bus that makes more sense than twice the thickness of one. It might just boil down to the DM's interpretation though.
Of course, either situation would result in MitD moving very strangely or off-screen in order to fit the darkness without leaving his tail out, and he would be coiled up tightly the whole time. Colossal would be virtually impossible no matter what, and Gargantuan would be quite improbable. So it doesn't actually change much for the Ha-Naga, though it might have an effect on the next scrutinized serpentine candidate, assuming there is one.Last edited by Squire Doodad; 2019-03-21 at 09:44 PM.
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2019-03-21, 09:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-03-21, 10:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
I am choosing to vote solely so that choosing not to is not thrown in my face. I haven't accepted the validity of the FBS until now and I highly doubt that will change anytime soon.
I am posting my vote publicly so if my PM mysteriously never reaches the curator's inbox, it will be known publicly.
First, in accordance with adding additional options:
A) No change
B) Remove Upper Size Limit
C) Add minimum Size Limit: Large
D) Add "must not be an embodiment of Evil" requirement
E) Remove Strength Requirement
F) Increase Strength Requirement to 40
G) Reduce Strength Requirement to 23.
H) Monster must not be a non-D&D copyrighted Creature.
PV 1: H, G, B, D
PV 2: B, G
PV 3: B
PV 4: H, D
PV 5: D
The existence of any character from another webcomic being in the FBS is a disservice to the mystery. It shows that it's not being taken seriously and it cheapens the category.
Nailing down a specific number for STR is dangerous when we don't know what number Rich had in mind. Play it safe.
The MitD is smaller than normal. We don't know why, all we know is that he's supposed to be bigger.
The amount of alignment flexibility displayed by MitD is at a much greater extent than what we've seen from other fiends, including the roaches.
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2019-03-21, 10:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Yeah, I don't think anything is perfect, but I also don't have a lot of faith in my ability as a not-really-even-a-DnD-player, so I don't think I'm going to find a better answer. ANB is my second choice but the whole "wasn't released at the time yet" is a pretty big hangup for me.
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2019-03-21, 10:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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- Skyron, Andromeda
- Gender
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
My reasoning for my vote:
In general, I think the FBS list is pretty fine as is, so I’ve put down A as my top preference. If pressed, I’d be fine with adding a “no embodiments of Evil rule”, but I don’t think it’s an essential and I’ll admit part of it is because the Glabrezu isn’t my favorite option and I won’t lose much sleep over it leaving. Beyond that, the size categories I think as fine as they are—It makes sense to not let the MitD be too large, and I’m not worried about tiny proposals either. Similarly, I think it’s important to have a strength bar, but I think 40 is high enough it won’t be a terribly useful bar.
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2019-03-21, 11:42 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
I'm assuming each other-than-A letter gets runoff rounds against A and any letter that beats A gets implemented while any letter that gets beaten by A does not?
For the sake of the example here, after you add my vote (where D>A) and 3Power's (my vote was cast by PM a long time ago, but it's fine for GW to go to sleep at some point), let's say the voting stops there, D is implemented, and nothing else. The closest contender would be C, but for C to get implemented, it would need several more votes to beat A (as Kish and Peelee vote A over C).
I didn't bother to cast a vote for A, but normally, I gather that people do it to put a stop to whatever isn't on their list. Actually, now that I think about it, given that there are suggestions I don't like and would oppose, it's always a good idea to vote A after voting for all the letters you think you'd support.
Also, there's something that clearly makes no sense - if for example you look at Qwertystop's votes, he's ranking both B and C before A, so each of these letters will get his vote in their run against their implementation adversary (A) until either the non-A or the A gets an absolute majority in each of the two cases (B and C), but the exact manner in which he casts these votes is irrelevant.
His line could say : B,C then A
Or it could also say: C then B then A
Or it could also say: B then C then A
and all of those would be the exact same thing. Basically, the one and only "reality" here is that Qwertystop is voting for B, C, D, F.Last edited by lio45; 2019-03-21 at 11:49 PM.
Offer good while supplies last. Two to a customer. Each item sold separately. Batteries not included. Mileage may vary. All sales are final. Allow six weeks for delivery. Some items not available. Some assembly required. Some restrictions may apply. All entries become our property. Employees not eligible. Entry fees not refundable. Local restrictions apply. Void where prohibited. Except in Indiana.
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2019-03-21, 11:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2016
- Location
- Elemental Plane of Water
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Guess I'll give my reasoning for my votes, too:
I think the rules are fine as-is: however, if pressed to remove something it would be the Size limit because it has been lampshaded pretty thoroughly. I still think a Colossal creature is too big, but I think that's something we can mentally make a note of without having it be a barrier to the FBS list.
Full disclosure: My guess is the ANB, and removing the Size limit would strengthen its case; that did NOT factor into my vote, but I want to acknowledge it in case someone tries to call me out on it later.
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2019-03-21, 11:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Reframed for clarity:
Kish votes for D;
Qwertystop votes for B, C, D, F;
Peelee votes for D, F;
Vulkos votes for B, C;`
3Power (as per his post) votes for B, D, G, H;
lio45 (I know what I voted for) votes for B, D;
and Grey Wolf, Squire Doodad, The Aboleth, and Jaxzan Proditor don't vote for anything (i.e. "no changes").
(Makes zero sense to vote for anything behind an A, it will never get counted!)
Now, some of the people didn't actively end their lists with an A, but that should always be automatically assumed to (i.e. anything not listed in their personal list, we assume they don't want those).
Right now, D would almost pass (tie), B and C are the closest that may pass but each would require several votes (since anyone not listing those letters by default votes A against them).
This is the first time I witness a vote in this thread, but from deduction, what I described is basically the one and only way to run this kind of voting. And it could be greatly simplified by having each participant simply state which of the statements/letters they'd be in favor of implementing. Each statement that gets more yes than no gets implemented (by an absolute majority); each statement that doesn't, doesn't (again by an absolute majority).Last edited by lio45; 2019-03-22 at 12:13 AM.
Offer good while supplies last. Two to a customer. Each item sold separately. Batteries not included. Mileage may vary. All sales are final. Allow six weeks for delivery. Some items not available. Some assembly required. Some restrictions may apply. All entries become our property. Employees not eligible. Entry fees not refundable. Local restrictions apply. Void where prohibited. Except in Indiana.
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2019-03-22, 12:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2016
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- Elemental Plane of Water
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the way the votes are tallied, but my reasoning was as follows: Option A is my first choice, but if that is defeated then my next pick would be Option B. The allowance to cast multiple votes seems to indicate a runoff-type of scenario could be in play, so I wanted to be clear what my preferences were in such a situation.
Grey_Wolf_c: If I have fundamentally misunderstood the voting process, please let me know.Last edited by The Aboleth; 2019-03-22 at 12:12 AM.
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2019-03-22, 12:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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- Oregon, USA
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
I'm guessing you haven't heard of instant-runoff voting.
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2019-03-22, 12:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
But that makes absolutely no sense. The options aren't in competition against each other. It's not like we have to elect one, and only one. We can choose several, or none.
Think about it... you'll see.
In your case, Option A - which BTW will never "be defeated" especially given how everyone's allowed random combinations of letters - is your first choice, so you're not voting for anything. You're opposing every letter: B, C, D, E, all the way to the end of the alphabet.
The fact that there's a B in your voting...... is completely senseless. If you prefer implementing B to not implementing B, then vote B. But you don't; you prefer Not-B to B, as you stated. So you're voting against B, which is perfectly fine.
You guys are trying to apply a voting system that is designed to elect ONE choice, not zero, not several. Makes no sense.
On the contrary, it seems that I'm the only one (so far) who's familiar with it, given that no one else has yet noticed it can't be applied here since we're not trying to elect one and only one option with the support of an absolute majority.
(Give me a few minutes and I'll drive the point home with an example.)
Here's the example, a fictional scenario. Let's say that's final. How do you resolve this? You guys' misapplication of IRV would resolve that with "A", while appropriate resolution would have D implemented and nothing else.
Last edited by lio45; 2019-03-22 at 12:27 AM.
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2019-03-22, 12:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
- Gender
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Y'all know GW posted a link to a video explaining it pretty well, right? Alternative vote system
I'm sad that it contained no wolves, but amused the guy who made it was named Grey.
.... We are though? Each PV is a set. Most sets have a sight object, some have more, but we are definitely voting on one set to win.Last edited by Peelee; 2019-03-22 at 12:29 AM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2019-03-22, 12:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2016
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- Elemental Plane of Water
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Last edited by The Aboleth; 2019-03-22 at 12:26 AM.
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2019-03-22, 12:29 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Yes, and I even started by watching it to make sure (and didn't learn anything, as I was already familiar with all that).
Again - let's see how you resolve the above scenario. ("we implement D and only D" is the correct answer, supported by an absolute majority of the participants in the fictional scenario.)Offer good while supplies last. Two to a customer. Each item sold separately. Batteries not included. Mileage may vary. All sales are final. Allow six weeks for delivery. Some items not available. Some assembly required. Some restrictions may apply. All entries become our property. Employees not eligible. Entry fees not refundable. Local restrictions apply. Void where prohibited. Except in Indiana.
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2019-03-22, 12:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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2019-03-22, 12:34 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Yes, which is why all the weight of your vote goes to "I oppose all the suggested modifications".
however, if a change must be made, my preference would be for Option B.
This is all I'm trying to convey; people much smarter in math than I am can tally the votes and tell me the final result.Offer good while supplies last. Two to a customer. Each item sold separately. Batteries not included. Mileage may vary. All sales are final. Allow six weeks for delivery. Some items not available. Some assembly required. Some restrictions may apply. All entries become our property. Employees not eligible. Entry fees not refundable. Local restrictions apply. Void where prohibited. Except in Indiana.
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2019-03-22, 12:36 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
- Gender
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2019-03-22, 12:38 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
That is soooooo ridiculous it makes the Centaur look like a FBS entry in comparison. Of course if that's how you guys (completely mis-)apply IRV, then obviously, "Single A alone" is basically guaranteed to win, because when people support things and are allowed to randomly mix and match, the odds of such a combination possibly managing to beat Single A are zero.
Take a look again at my example. A clear majority (5 out of 8) wants D to happen, but because they, by pure chance, happen to ALSO support various unrelated things, A would (totally steal) the victory, and in this "travesty of democracy" scenario, D would be denied.Offer good while supplies last. Two to a customer. Each item sold separately. Batteries not included. Mileage may vary. All sales are final. Allow six weeks for delivery. Some items not available. Some assembly required. Some restrictions may apply. All entries become our property. Employees not eligible. Entry fees not refundable. Local restrictions apply. Void where prohibited. Except in Indiana.
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2019-03-22, 12:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2016
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- Elemental Plane of Water
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
I don't oppose Option B; I just prefer Option A more. EDIT: If people prefer something other than Options A or B, that's their deal, but at that point I choose to bow out of the voting as the other options don't appeal to me enough to vote for them.
That would be me, and that's also what I'm trying to do.Last edited by The Aboleth; 2019-03-22 at 12:43 AM.
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2019-03-22, 12:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Last edited by Peelee; 2019-03-22 at 12:43 AM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2019-03-22, 12:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Offer good while supplies last. Two to a customer. Each item sold separately. Batteries not included. Mileage may vary. All sales are final. Allow six weeks for delivery. Some items not available. Some assembly required. Some restrictions may apply. All entries become our property. Employees not eligible. Entry fees not refundable. Local restrictions apply. Void where prohibited. Except in Indiana.
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2019-03-22, 12:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2016
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- Elemental Plane of Water
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Last edited by The Aboleth; 2019-03-22 at 12:51 AM.
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2019-03-22, 01:02 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying: you oppose Option B slightly more than you favor it.
If you and I and the rest of our party take a prisoner, and Option A is "slitting his throat" and Option B is "not slitting his throat", your position is that you're slightly in favor of slitting his throat, while still generally okay with either outcome. But you can't have both at the same time (unless we put the prisoner in a box, and it's the state of a quantum system that causes the slitting to be triggered.....)Offer good while supplies last. Two to a customer. Each item sold separately. Batteries not included. Mileage may vary. All sales are final. Allow six weeks for delivery. Some items not available. Some assembly required. Some restrictions may apply. All entries become our property. Employees not eligible. Entry fees not refundable. Local restrictions apply. Void where prohibited. Except in Indiana.
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2019-03-22, 01:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2016
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- Elemental Plane of Water
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2019-03-22, 01:11 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Your first choice is "I don't want any of them implemented", so clearly, you don't want any one new thing implemented.
No need to cast votes for things to be implemented, given that you're opposing all of them.
Again, in the analogy, we're a group voting on what to do with the prisoner, and you're casting your vote for "slitting his throat", which is your right and it's fine, but then you go on to add that you want to register a second, lesser vote for "not slitting his throat", and that's the part that doesn't make any sense.Offer good while supplies last. Two to a customer. Each item sold separately. Batteries not included. Mileage may vary. All sales are final. Allow six weeks for delivery. Some items not available. Some assembly required. Some restrictions may apply. All entries become our property. Employees not eligible. Entry fees not refundable. Local restrictions apply. Void where prohibited. Except in Indiana.
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2019-03-22, 01:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2016
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- Elemental Plane of Water
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2019-03-22, 01:17 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- Location
- Oregon, USA
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
What, you mean like if I'm asked to resolve this without Grey_Wolf_c to explain what exactly is meant given the alternate/preferential/IRV/STV terminology clash? Well, let's see.
SpoilerA) No change
B) Remove Upper Size Limit
C) Add minimum Size Limit: Large
D) Add "must not be an embodiment of Evil" requirement
E) Remove Strength Requirement
F) Increase Strength Requirement to 40
Voter PV 1 PV 2 PV 3 PV 4 PV 5 PV 6 That Vampire D, E C A Darth Zannah B, D A Darth Bane A C That Dragon D D, F F A Darth Vader C, D C D B F A Darth Tyranus A B Only Zuul B, C, D B C A Darth Sidious A D D, F F
D has a majority at 5 of 8.
D necessarily excludes A. There are no A-contingent sets.
A) No change
B) Remove Upper Size Limit
C) Add minimum Size Limit: Large
D) Add "must not be an embodiment of Evil" requirement
E) Remove Strength Requirement
F) Increase Strength Requirement to 40
Voter PV 1 PV 2 PV 3 PV 4 PV 5 PV 6 That Vampire D, E C A Darth Zannah B, D A Darth Bane A C That Dragon D D, F F A Darth Vader C, D C D B F A Darth Tyranus A B Only Zuul B, C, D B C A Darth Sidious A D D, F F
None exceed half....E is last at 1, so E is eliminated. E-contingent sets are eliminated.
A) No change
B) Remove Upper Size Limit
C) Add minimum Size Limit: Large
D) Add "must not be an embodiment of Evil" requirement
E) Remove Strength Requirement
F) Increase Strength Requirement to 40
Voter PV 1 PV 2 PV 3 PV 4 PV 5 PV 6 That Vampire D, E C A Darth Zannah B, D A Darth Bane A C That Dragon D D, F F A Darth Vader C, D C D B F A Darth Tyranus A B Only Zuul B, C, D B C A Darth Sidious A D D, F F
None exceed half (C's exact half is insufficient)....F is last at 2, so F is eliminated. F-contingent sets are eliminated (to little effect, since both are paired with already-chosen D)
A) No change
B) Remove Upper Size Limit
C) Add minimum Size Limit: Large
D) Add "must not be an embodiment of Evil" requirement
E) Remove Strength Requirement
F) Increase Strength Requirement to 40
Voter PV 1 PV 2 PV 3 PV 4 PV 5 PV 6 That Vampire D, E C A Darth Zannah B, D A Darth Bane A C That Dragon D D, F F A Darth Vader C, D C D B F A Darth Tyranus A B Only Zuul B, C, D B C A Darth Sidious A D D, F F
None exceed half (C's exact half is insufficient)....B is last at 3, so B is eliminated. B-contingent sets are eliminated as well.
A) No change
B) Remove Upper Size Limit
C) Add minimum Size Limit: Large
D) Add "must not be an embodiment of Evil" requirement
E) Remove Strength Requirement
F) Increase Strength Requirement to 40
C does not exceed half....So C is eliminated.Voter PV 1 PV 2 PV 3 PV 4 PV 5 PV 6 That Vampire D, E C A Darth Zannah B, D A Darth Bane A C That Dragon D D, F F A Darth Vader C, D C D B F A Darth Tyranus A B Only Zuul B, C, D B C A Darth Sidious A D D, F F
A) No change
B) Remove Upper Size Limit
C) Add minimum Size Limit: Large
D) Add "must not be an embodiment of Evil" requirement
E) Remove Strength Requirement
F) Increase Strength Requirement to 40
And thus, the only change that comes to pass is adding "must not be an embodiment of Evil" as a requirement.
All that said, I think Grey_Wolf_c explaining what the process is, would be more fruitful than assuming it's what I'd do (especially since we're clearly not doing an approval-voting-esque series that resolves mutual exclusions by priority in ranked order).Last edited by Jasdoif; 2019-03-22 at 01:17 AM.
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2019-03-22, 01:24 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
... and you didn't notice that the whole process is just a needlessly complicated (and slightly less accurate and democratic) way of tallying the following...?
That Vampire: "I'd implement C, D, E"
Darth Zannah: "I'd implement B, D"
Darth Bane: "I'd implement nothing"
That Dragon: "I'd implement D, F"
Darth Vader: "I'd implement B, C, D, F"
Darth Tyranus: "I'd implement nothing"
Only Zuul: "I'd implement B, C, D"
Darth Sidious: "I'd implement nothing"
You can easily see that D is the only thing that will pass (supported by 5, opposed by 3). Also, something interesting, by eliminating A, you managed to produce a tie with regards to C, but in reality, more participants oppose C than favor it, so that's a bug, not a feature. C should not pass.
Having the participants bother ranking the stuff they all rank >A is absolutely useless. Same with having them suggest stuff they rank behind A. I really don't see how anyone could consider this messed-up IRV as desirable in this case, as we're clearly not trying to narrow it down to one and only one modification; we're open to several at the same time, or none.
If for some arbitrary reason we HAD to make ONE change, and only one, then yeah, okay, IRV would make sense so that we could pick the one modification that is the most desired and palatable to a majority. That's what such a system is designed to do.
But in this case, there's a bunch of possible changes. Everyone can say which ones they'd support. It's that simple. Anything requires a majority to pass.Last edited by lio45; 2019-03-22 at 01:36 AM.
Offer good while supplies last. Two to a customer. Each item sold separately. Batteries not included. Mileage may vary. All sales are final. Allow six weeks for delivery. Some items not available. Some assembly required. Some restrictions may apply. All entries become our property. Employees not eligible. Entry fees not refundable. Local restrictions apply. Void where prohibited. Except in Indiana.