What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

[factotum]

Yeah, except she actually got to go on field missions more often, I assume, due to being less valuable.

Even in situations where Hinjo was present she'd be on the front lines fighting, while he'd be staying back giving the orders.

[Vinyadan]

Even in situations where Hinjo was present she'd be on the front lines fighting, while he'd be staying back giving the orders.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0865.html Looks about right. He may work as a low-powered heal&turnbot who gives aura effects, I guess.

[Resileaf]

If Total War has taught me anything, it's that a general almost never gets into the thick of fighting unless absolutely needed. Hinjo needs to give orders more than he needs to fight.

[Peelee]

Yeah, except she actually got to go on field missions more often, I assume, due to being less valuable.

Also more capable. Field mission in an ocean is easier with a shark mount and a ring if water breathing than with a Dire wolf and air breathing.

[GreatWyrmGold]

So, I send my character to prison, chat up the jailer for a few months (ultimately convincing them that I'm innocent or wrongly imprisoned), beat up any other prisoner who tries to fight me, and the combination of the two will bring me up a level or two?

I'm pretty sure O-Chul's XP gain would be much lower if he didn't have Xykon as a jailor. If you're going to do this, I'd suggest sticking to a standard prison training sequence.

I never really got how Lien pulled ahead of him since she was in the same situations Hinjo was for the most part.

They were on the same ship, but Hinjo wasn't in the field as often as Lien.
"I know you want to smite evil, sir, but we really need you to sit in judgement of this accused arsonist."

Not restricted to JRPGs. Any console or computer RPG has massively more random enemies than any real RPG.

That's only even close to true because tabletop RPG combat is so slow and boring that nobody in their right mind would stick around in a campaign with that many pointless action scenes. Citation: The campaign being run in my local game shop, where there are probably more pointless encounters than in any VRPG I've played recently.

I greatly enjoy a number of CRPGs, but in none of them can I truly make up a character rather than choosing from a limited list of options the game designers thought of, nor can I take any action that the DM did not anticipate and expect them to improvise rather than telling me, in effect, "There's an invisible wall there. Choose from this list of options instead."

The aforementioned D&D campaign had the DM fight tooth and nail to prevent any creative ideas we had from actually working. But even less-terrible DMs have serious restrictions; you can only do whatever the DM can figure out how to do in the heat of the moment. (Not to mention that they have tools to shut down anything too diabolically creative.) Not to mention that most TRPGs I've played, including basically all published adventures, have had a very limited set of actions that made a lick of sense. TRPGs let me attempt a handstand in the middle of combat, but that's not practically a member of the set of available choices.
By contrast, many video games either have a full team of people implementing more possibilities than most players are ever going to consider or just programming in enough interlocking systems that solutions the devs never thought of can emerge (which is basically the CRPG equivalent of an improvising DM, except that the entire game is often built on such improvisation). This can often allow a wider range of options being available, both because there's an entire team of professionals working to create the experience and because they don't need to worry about you disrupting the experience of everyone else at the table.

[Vinyadan]

O-Chul probably got his XP from playing Go.

[Squire Doodad]

o-chul probably got his xp from playing go.

Exp Breakdown: O-Chul, Gobbotopia Cell, book 4
Slaying: 3%
Role-Playing: 14%
Bravery/Improvisation Bonuses: 13%
Go: 70%

[Cazero]

O-Chul probably got his XP from playing Go.

Well, duh. Repeated solo encounters against a ludicrous CR (the MitD), and he won pretty much every time. That racks up XP real fast.

[Lacuna Caster]

I think most of the OOTS gods simply aren't that competent, alert, or intelligent. Remember the godsmoot - the vast majority of them voted based on really terrible criteria (even the nay votes.) Even if they ultimately voted no, there's no real reason to think the Southern Pantheon is any better. I suspect they had only a bare understanding of who Miko was up until she screwed up badly enough to require their direct attention.

I can't tell if you're serious or not. In case you are, let me point out that A. the gods have different priorities than what mortals would expect (exhibit A, if only by virtue of being one of the first in the comic) and B. the gods are not all that good at executing on the plans they do make (exhibit A for being the most extreme).

Oh, I'm well aware that the Gods of OOTSverse are canonically wearing giant floppy clown shoes most of the time- my point is that Miko can hardly be blamed for not assuming this. The Twelve are literally the supreme beings she worships above all others, she presumably thinks they are reasonably benign, competent, informed and otherwise on top of the unfolding situation. They're evidently not, but that's hardly her fault.

Keep in mind that gods are permitted to give instructions to people who pray for guidance - we saw that with Loki. Miko, for all her faults, prayed for guidance constantly. Yes, we can blame her for thinking that she was so important and special that the gods would have a specific plan for her, but, well... she's the most powerful Paladin in the entire region and was dealing with a direct threat to the gates.

It's not a stretch for her to expect that one of the twelve gods would maybe devote some tiny modicum of attention and direction to their most powerful paladin when she's dealing with a situation that does, in fact, threaten the world itself. All it would have taken is one message saying something along the lines of "despite their irreverence, the OOTS is trustworthy; work with them to defend the gates." Or "if you get the chance, you need to destroy Xykon's phylactery." Or anything like that. Miko expecting that sort of direction was not arrogance - if anything, while she ultimately screwed up, her constant attempts to get direction from her deities was humility.

1. They have a greater degree of responsibility for Miko, because they empowered her.

2. The gods are restrained in what they can do in many ways - they can't just act freely. But one of the few ways we know they can act is by answering prayers from the faithful. And Miko constantly asked them for direction.

3. Most of those other tragedies weren't world-threatening. This one potentially was. Not only that, it was exactly the specific threat that Miko was supposedly empowered and sworn to deal with as their champion.

She made a lot of mistakes, but I think it was reasonable of her to expect the gods to take thirty seconds of their time to give her at least some vague guidance as to how to protect the gates, given how serious the crisis was and given her role as their champion.

Yeah, exactly. Thor, for comparison, is ostensibly in a bind about what he can communicate to mortals because of the whole You Do Not Talk About Snarl Club restriction, but the Sapphire Guard are already part of Snarl Club, and have been since the beginning- that's their entire purpose for existence. Why, exactly, can the Gods not talk to them about this?

Now, to be clear, one can certainly argue more broadly that a failure to talk with Miko, specifically, is only a small part of this larger problem- why the Twelve don't inform any senior cleric in Azure City more generally about the impending army of orange doom, for example, is totally unexplained. (Particularly now that we have multiple instances of Gods talking directly to their clergy, including via broadly-available commune spells.)

Now to be clear, I'm not saying that Miko is the only one I would expect a nominally competent version of the Twelve to have a 'plan' for. Pretty much anyone with enough political, martial or magical mojo to rock the boat within Azure City or their other primary territories should be someone they presumably want to nudge in certain directions. Shojo, certainly. Hinjo, most likely. Other senior paladins within the Guard, perhaps. But Miko is not just some random cubicle-dweller that they can get away with only noticing yesterday.

[Lacuna Caster]

For the same reason most dog owners don't have a plan for their eldest puppy.

If you're planning for said 'puppy' to be your trained attack dog against home invaders who will try to burn your house down... yes, I would expect said owner to have a plan for how said animal should be trained and deployed.

Based on the events in the comic, it would actually be easy to conclude that some god had a plan for Miko. Check out Soon's words to Xykon: He can't personally destroy Xykon's phylactery, but he can instruct the first mortal to enter the room in the particulars...

So... Miko was correct in assuming that the hairline crack in her prison bars was a sign that the Gods wanted her to escape, but incorrect in assuming that O-Chul's mid-swing gem-smash maneuver meant they wanted the Gate to be destroyed?

So before she became the most powerful paladin, the gods had a plan for the previous one? And they now have a plan for the current most powerful one, O-Chul (presumably. Other pallys were outside of Azure City at the time, but we don't know their power). Every most-powerful-paladin has had a plan by the gods that transferred upon death...

Again, I'm not saying that Miko was the only one that the Gods could or should have had some kind of plan for. My point is simply that Miko was reasonably entitled to consider herself part of a fairly exclusive circle of people that should, by all rights, have been given particular attention and guidance by the Twelve.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If you're planning for said 'puppy' to be your trained attack dog against home invaders who will try to burn your house down... yes, I would expect said owner to have a plan for how said animal should be trained and deployed.

I don't see a reason to assume the gods wanted any attack dogs, and least of all that they'd want Miko to be one of them. You may think Miko was important to the gods, but that is a baseless assumption. But you have absolutely no proof that she was important, or that any of the gods much cared about her before she decided to murder her unarmed liege in a baseless hunch, forcing the gods to act.

The idea Miko was important to the gods, and that therefore they had a plan for her, is canonical proof of her delusion. I am far more willing to accept Hinjo's reading of the events and that, if the gods do indeed have a plan for Miko, it involves a 10-by-10 windowless cell with a bucket for a toilet.

Grey Wolf

[Aquillion]

I don't see a reason to assume the gods wanted any attack dogs, and least of all that they'd want Miko to be one of them. You may think Miko was important to the gods, but that is a baseless assumption. But you have absolutely no proof that she was important, or that any of the gods much cared about her before she decided to murder her unarmed liege in a baseless hunch, forcing the gods to act.

The idea Miko was important to the gods, and that therefore they had a plan for her, is canonical proof of her delusion. I am far more willing to accept Hinjo's reading of the events and that, if the gods do indeed have a plan for Miko, it involves a 10-by-10 windowless cell with a bucket for a toilet.

To be clear, I don't think Miko was important to the gods, and I agree that they didn't care about her.

But I think that that fact says more about the gods than it does about Miko. She was their most powerful champion, sworn to defend the gates that upheld reality. They granted her her powers and were ultimately responsible for the problem she was tasked with resolving. And when that problem got out of hand to the point where they were personally threatened (something that was entirely foreseeable) they suddenly did care.

I think that in retrospect Miko's expectation that she would get a bare modicum of attention from the gods once the gates were threatened was not entirely unreasonable, and that their failure to do so is a more serious problem than any arrogance on her part in expecting that they would spare thirty seconds to give their highest-level champion a moment of direction.

Keep in mind that when we first saw those events, we didn't know the full story about the Snarl and everything related to it; we hadn't seen the gods voting to destroy the world, or Loki using the loophole of answering prayers to send Hilgya to help the OOTS. These things substantially change what Miko expected. And a lot of it would have been stuff she'd be at least vaguely familiar with - ie. she would probably know that it's not unusual for gods to respond to prayers from high-level servants with directions. Sure, she's not central to their plans the way, say, Greg was for Hel or Redcloak is for the Dark One, but she's devoted her entire life to serving them and managed to become one of their most powerful servants. Despite how the comic portrayed it at the time, her expectation that they would pay the bare modicum of attention to the task she'd devoted her life to in their service was not, in fact, unreasonable at all.

I'm not saying that this excuses Miko's reaction when the gods kept flaking out on her. But I feel they did flake out on her, and the fact that they were paying so little attention to something so manifestly important reflects worse on them than anything in that plot arc reflects on her.

Regardless of her own flaws, a competent deity would have:

1. Cared about what happened with the gates before it became a full-blown world-threatening crisis.

2. Started paying closer attention to the paladins they'd empowered once it was clear the gates were threatened.

3. Probably devoted at least a few minutes to figuring out how to use Miko, personally, since she was one of the most powerful pieces they had available in that fight.

Compare the intense, personal focus the Dark One, Hel, or the IFCC gave their champions - that's why they're winning, for the most part, while the good guys are constantly on the ropes. And it's why the Twelve Gods, while they voted against Hel's proposal, are pretty much nonfactors - they've consistently ignored or squandered some of their most useful servants. The Northern Pantheon is pretty much the only one that actually seems to pay attention to their people.

(Regarding Miko having a "destiny" or not, compare also Loki's willingness to use Hilgya when she was available - she wasn't anyone particularly important before Loki noticed her prayer, realized she could be useful, and gave her the necessary directions. She has her flaws, definitely, but without that the order probably would have been wiped out by Greg. I think it's fair that Miko had trouble accepting that her gods couldn't even be bothered to that minimum response in a situation that was absolutely world-threatening and directly related to the gods themselves.)

And I think it wasn't that unreasonable for her to assume that the highest-level Paladin in the Sapphire Guard would be a valuable piece in the fight the gods were waging over the gates, rather than someone they seem to have completely ignored until she screwed up so badly that didn't have a choice anymore.

[Peelee]

To be clear, I don't think Miko was important to the gods, and I agree that they didn't care about her.

But I think that that fact says more about the gods than it does about Miko. She was their most powerful champion
.

Again, was she really? The High Priest was very likely their most powerful champion.

[CriticalFailure]

Not having a plan for Miko was a terrible HR oversight on the part of the 12 gods. I wonder if any bureaucratic devas got in trouble for that one. She was their strongest paladin and its also pretty likely she was more powerful than the High Priest of the 12. The high priest seems to be on par with or lower level than Redcloak in their fight, and based on Miko beating up Redcloak she's probably not lower level than him, and is likely higher level than RC was at the time.

Being a servant the gods can use is kind of a paladin thing so it seems reasonable to expect some sort of divine calling; the problem was Miko's obsessiveness with interpreting everything as a divine sign.

[Aquillion]

Again, was she really? The High Priest was very likely their most powerful champion.

It's very likely that the High Priest doesn't even know the gates exist, so he wouldn't be a usable champion in this context. Miko was almost certainly their most powerful champion for gate-related matters, so it was reasonable for her to assume that the gods would try to use her effectively once it was clear the gates were in danger.

[Lacuna Caster]

It's very likely that the High Priest doesn't even know the gates exist, so he wouldn't be a usable champion in this context. Miko was almost certainly their most powerful champion for gate-related matters, so it was reasonable for her to assume that the gods would try to use her effectively once it was clear the gates were in danger.

I'd be mildly surprised if the High Priest wasn't a member of the Guard himself, though, and even if he's lower-level he belongs to a top-tier class. But sure, Miko might have certain advantages in direct combat or mission-statement that make her at least a comparable asset.

In any case, the Gods having a plan for the High Priest is not mutually exclusive with having a plan for Ms. Miyazaki- there's nothing, in principle, to stop them liaising with both. (Particularly in a universe where the Gods apparently remember every follower who ever worshipped them, personally grant them spells, and know their innermost thoughts and desires.)

See, the problem is that, in the same sense that Miko-as-depicted can't really exist in a world with teleport and sending spells, she also can't easily exist in a universe with commune, planar ally, or even raise dead spells. Because in a universe where there are reliable channels of communication between Gods and mortals, Miko is going to just ask the Twelve exactly what they have in store for her, and wind up with either (A) a rude awakening or (B) express vindication of her beliefs.

[Vinyadan]

I personally don't doubt that the gods had a plan for Miko, or that they had a plan for every single NPC. I just don't think it was what Miko was thinking about. I assume that it would have been something more in the line of living everyday life on a path of personal self-realization (realization in this case meaning mostly realizing who you are and what you should strive to be, and why, and your relationship to the world) and applying what you have found to help others, with lots of humility to keep yourself aware of pitfalls.*

Miko completely lacked this humility, decided to carve away her own destiny through arrogant assumptions and self-aggrandizing acts, and ended up committing one of the heaviest crimes, and the one most opposite to her call as a paladin.

*I mean the good gods, the ones a LG paladin I assume to heed. I guess that the other members of the Southern Gods would have different plans.

[Lacuna Caster]

I personally don't doubt that the gods had a plan for Miko, or that they had a plan for every single NPC. I just don't think it was what Miko was thinking about. I assume that it would have been something more in the line of living everyday life on a path of personal self-realization (realization in this case meaning mostly realizing who you are and what you should strive to be, and why, and your relationship to the world) and applying what you have found to help others, with lots of humility to keep yourself aware of pitfalls.*

Miko completely lacked this humility, decided to carve away her own destiny through arrogant assumptions and self-aggrandizing acts, and ended up committing one of the heaviest crimes, and the one most opposite to her call as a paladin.

Yeah, maybe, but that doesn't solve the problem here. To the extent that Miko is supposed to have been this secretly belligerent narcissist for years before meeting the OOTS, what exactly was stopping the Twelve from sending their clerics a sternly worded memo, telling them that Ms. Miyazaki was not qualified to be their commander? Or that Shojo wasn't actually senile? Or that Xykon was the primary threat behind the destruction of Dorukan's Gate? I mean, who is going to argue?

Assuming that you're vouchsafed some epic destiny by the Gods themselves seems pretty vain... ...but it is at least somewhat less vain in a universe where narrative tropes have genuine power, where Oracles foresee a predetermined future for every person, where arbitrarily-selected PC Chosen Ones shape the course of history, and where you are actually granted immense power by the creators of the universe.

(On the same note, while killing your liege lord and halfway-killing his immediate successor is pretty bad... ...it is at least somewhat less bad in a universe where both could have been back in action fifteen minutes later, as the comic itself takes pains to point out. And clearly less bad than what various other servants of the Twelve apparently get away with.)

[Peelee]

Yeah, maybe, but that doesn't solve the problem here. To the extent that Miko is supposed to have been this secretly belligerent narcissist for years before meeting the OOTS, what exactly was stopping the Twelve from sending their clerics a sternly worded memo, telling them that Ms. Miyazaki was not qualified to be their commander? Or that Shojo wasn't actually senile? Or that Xykon was the primary threat behind the destruction of Dorukan's Gate? I mean, who is going to argue?

You seem to want a story where the gods micromanage the physical world to a shocking degree. Which is fine. You also seem to want that to be the OotS world, despite that for 15 years now that has not been the case. This, I believe, is where your desires break down.

[Keltest]

Yeah, maybe, but that doesn't solve the problem here. To the extent that Miko is supposed to have been this secretly belligerent narcissist for years before meeting the OOTS, what exactly was stopping the Twelve from sending their clerics a sternly worded memo, telling them that Ms. Miyazaki was not qualified to be their commander? Or that Shojo wasn't actually senile? Or that Xykon was the primary threat behind the destruction of Dorukan's Gate? I mean, who is going to argue?

Assuming that you're vouchsafed some epic destiny by the Gods themselves seems pretty vain... ...but it is at least somewhat less vain in a universe where narrative tropes have genuine power, where Oracles foresee a predetermined future for every person, where arbitrarily-selected PC Chosen Ones shape the course of history, and where you are actually granted immense power by the creators of the universe.

(On the same note, while killing your liege lord and halfway-killing his immediate successor is pretty bad... ...it is at least somewhat less bad in a universe where both could have been back in action fifteen minutes later, as the comic itself takes pains to point out. And clearly less bad than what various other servants of the Twelve apparently get away with.)

Presumably, theyre stopped by the same thing that prevents every other god from just sending down a divine letter to any given follower whenever they want to. "the gods cant just manifest and manipulate the world outside of very well defined circumstances and methods" has been a pretty consistent rule in OOTS, and indeed most D&D based worlds.

[Squire Doodad]

Presumably, theyre stopped by the same thing that prevents every other god from just sending down a divine letter to any given follower whenever they want to. "the gods cant just manifest and manipulate the world outside of very well defined circumstances and methods" has been a pretty consistent rule in OOTS, and indeed most D&D based worlds.

If they were worried they could have done something though. Like tell the main Priest of Azure City that Miko needs to take it down a notch and such.

[Keltest]

If they were worried they could have done something though. Like tell the main Priest of Azure City that Miko needs to take it down a notch and such.

I don't see why them being worried would somehow enable them to make contact like that when they otherwise wouldn't be able to.

[Kish]

So... Miko was correct in assuming that the hairline crack in her prison bars was a sign that the Gods wanted her to escape, but incorrect in assuming that O-Chul's mid-swing gem-smash maneuver meant they wanted the Gate to be destroyed?

No, clearly the Twelve Gods' collective "no" vote on destroying the world is an indication that they want to see what happens when all the Gates are destroyed.

(Or possibly, you're trying to score a point where there's none to be scored instead of actually trying to comprehend what I said. Who knows?)

[Aquillion]

I don't see why them being worried would somehow enable them to make contact like that when they otherwise wouldn't be able to.

We know they can answer prayers for guidance, though (since Hilgya confirmed it.) And the one thing we can say for Miko is that she asked the gods for guidance constantly. She has a lot of flaws, but they can't say that she never asked them for direction.

(You can argue that her wording was presumptuous, perhaps. But as someone once said, you gotta get over that kind of boop when your boop is on the line. They needed someone to deal with the threat to the gates. Miko was their highest-level Paladin, was constantly asking them for guidance about what to do, and would have jumped at the slightest hint of direction. It's hard to parse their silence in the face of that to anything but "they don't really care what happens to this world all that much.")

[Squire Doodad]

We know they can answer prayers for guidance, though (since Hilgya confirmed it.) And the one thing we can say for Miko is that she asked the gods for guidance constantly. She has a lot of flaws, but they can't say that she never asked them for direction.

(You can argue that her wording was presumptuous, perhaps. But as someone once said, you gotta get over that kind of boop when your boop is on the line. They needed someone to deal with the threat to the gates. Miko was their highest-level Paladin, was constantly asking them for guidance about what to do, and would have jumped at the slightest hint of direction. It's hard to parse their silence in the face of that to anything but "they don't really care what happens to this world all that much.")

You could argue that Miko never actually casted the relevant spell and instead just asked them for advice. As to why she would do that, I'd wager that while she is fairly smart (if a terrible logician), she may not know much about the workings of magic. As such, not only did she never know that she needed to cast a specific spell but also never bothered to find out. Then, when someone informed her, she disregarded it as she assumed that her prayers were already being answered without the spell.

[woweedd]

Presumably, theyre stopped by the same thing that prevents every other god from just sending down a divine letter to any given follower whenever they want to. "the gods cant just manifest and manipulate the world outside of very well defined circumstances and methods" has been a pretty consistent rule in OOTS, and indeed most D&D based worlds.

Indeed. That's literally the function of Clerics: Influence the world in ways the Gods cannot. Personally, in my games, I tend to take the tact that the God's weakness is in overspecialization: Eahc God embodies their concept, but is utterly incapable of dealing with things outside of it. Iomedae can't be anything but brave, unselfish, and honest, and Asmodeus cannot resist the urge to oppress others. However, this goes both ways: Iomedae CANNOT put her own needs before others, no matter how important it is that she do so, and Asmodeus, though extremely charismatic, is also a tyrant who causes misery for no real reason, refuses to be subordinate to anyone under any circumstances, and who is incapable of humility. They're one-dimensional, entirely defined by their portfolio. Clerics, on the other hand, are humans, capable of thinking outside the box better then their patrons. A Cleric of Iomedae is capable of self-preservation where their patron isn't. and a Cleric of Asmodeus is able to display kindness to his subordinate where his God can't.

[factotum]

It's very likely that the High Priest doesn't even know the gates exist, so he wouldn't be a usable champion in this context. Miko was almost certainly their most powerful champion for gate-related matters, so it was reasonable for her to assume that the gods would try to use her effectively once it was clear the gates were in danger.

The Sapphire Guard are not the champions of the Gods as far as the Gates are concerned. It explicitly states in #275 that the Gods wanted the story of the Snarl and the rifts to be kept secret, and Soon took it upon himself to form the Sapphire Guard to guard the Azure City gate. If that had been on behalf of the Gods then he wouldn't have sworn the oath to not interfere with any Gate other than that one, because that makes it rather difficult to look after those Gates.

I also agree with Grey_Wolf_C. If Miko really were the champion of the Gods, her believing herself to be so would not be shown as a dangerous delusion that led her to her Fall.

[Lacuna Caster]

I also agree with Grey_Wolf_C. If Miko really were the champion of the Gods, her believing herself to be so would not be shown as a dangerous delusion that led her to her Fall.

Presumably, theyre stopped by the same thing that prevents every other god from just sending down a divine letter to any given follower whenever they want to. "the gods cant just manifest and manipulate the world outside of very well defined circumstances and methods" has been a pretty consistent rule in OOTS, and indeed most D&D based worlds.

Indeed. That's literally the function of Clerics: Influence the world in ways the Gods cannot.

You seem to want a story where the gods micromanage the physical world to a shocking degree...

Oh, I'm mostly indifferent to how much or how little the Gods 'micromanage' the physical world. What I would like is a story with some degree of baseline consistency as to how much management is generally going on.

I mean, what are these 'well-defined circumstances and methods', exactly? The world has to be at stake? The mortal in question has to proactively seek guidance? They need to already know about the Snarl? They need access to powerful spells that can bridge between the prime material and outer planes? You're telling me that for months at a time, no senior cleric or paladin in Azure City was asking the right question at the right time so as to be informed of Xykon's looming invasion? And the Twelve couldn't weasel-word a prophecy, like Odin or Tiamat, or issue direct orders, like Hel or Thrym, or have a resurrected follower or outsider servants relay a message, like Thor, the Dark One or the IFCC, and there's no equivalent to a mini-Godsmoot, where they just broadcast their views to their followers?

It's also hardly 'micromanagement' for the Gods to express legitimate preferences about who should be leading their own paladin and clerical organisations. It is the baseline minimum degree of management you might expect them to engage in if they are capable of communicating with followers at all. As woweed (somehow) points out, clerics and paladins are supposed to be their proxies on earth, influencing the world in ways that they cannot- why would they not want to guarantee competent leadership of said clerics and paladins?

(Or possibly, you're trying to score a point where there's none to be scored instead of actually trying to comprehend what I said. Who knows?)

You were trying to imply that the Twelve had some kind of sacred plan for Miko whereby she would be in place to destroy Xykon's phylactery after the ghost-martyrs defeated him and Redcloak. This plan would require that she escape from imprisonment in order to reach the throne-room at all, which in turn requires she interpret certain signs as concrete proof of the Gods' will, yet ignores much more obvious 'signs' about what to do within the throne room itself. It's kind of silly to assert that the Gods could predict and rely on the former, yet not the latter.

You could argue that Miko never actually casted the relevant spell and instead just asked them for advice. As to why she would do that, I'd wager that while she is fairly smart (if a terrible logician), she may not know much about the workings of magic...

Yeah... this would require that Miko operate on the same level of stupidity where she doesn't know that Teleport spells exist, or worse, knows that they do and just chooses not to use them (or the nearest clerical equivalent, Wind Walk.) Everyone and their grandmother in the later segments of the story seems to know about these spells and their relevant tactical applications- I think we can assume that Miko would be reasonably informed about how one talks to the Gods.

[woweedd]

Oh, I'm mostly indifferent to how much or how little the Gods 'micromanage' the physical world. What I would like is a story with some degree of baseline consistency as to how much management is generally going on.

I mean, what are these 'well-defined circumstances and methods', exactly? The world has to be at stake? The mortal in question has to proactively seek guidance? They need to already know about the Snarl? They need access to powerful spells that can bridge between the prime material and outer planes? You're telling me that for months at a time, no senior cleric or paladin in Azure City was asking the right question at the right time so as to be informed of Xykon's looming invasion? And they couldn't weasel-word a prophecy, like Odin or Tiamat, or issue direct orders, like Hel or Thrym, or have a resurrected follower or outsider servants relay a message, like Thor, the Dark One or the IFCC? There's no equivalent to a mini-Godsmoot, where they just broadcast their views to their followers?

It is also not 'micromanagement' for the Gods to express legitimate preferences about who should be leading their own paladins and clerical organisations. It is the baseline minimum degree of management you might expect them to engage in if they are capable of communicating with their followers at all. As woweed (somehow) points out, clerics and paladins are supposed to be their proxies on earth, influencing the world in ways that they cannot- guaranteeing competent leadership of said clerics and paladins is just... not being a putz about it.


You were trying to imply that the Twelve had some kind of sacred plan for Miko whereby she would be in place to destroy Xykon's phylactery after the ghost-martyrs defeated him and Redcloak. This plan would require that she escape from imprisonment in order to reach the throne-room at all, which in turn requires she interpret certain signs as concrete proof of the Gods' will, yet ignores much more obvious 'signs' about what to do within the throne room itself. It's kind of silly to assert that the Gods could predict and rely on the former, yet not the latter.


Yeah... this would require that Miko operate on the same level of stupidity where she doesn't know that Teleport spells exist, or worse, knows that they do and just chooses not to use them (or the nearest clerical equivalent, Wind Walk.) Everyone and their grandmother in the later segments of the story seems to know about these spells and their relevant tactical applications- I think we can assume that Miko would be reasonably informed about how one talks to the Gods.

To paraphrase Thor, “Look, whatever plan you have that involves me fixing everything for you, I can guarantee there’s some dumb God rule that prevents me from doing so”.

[Resileaf]

So what if Miko correctly interpreted the Twelve Gods' will? What if they did want her to destroy the gate to make sure Redcloak and Xykon couldn't harness its power? After all, maybe they expected that the city was lost and there was no way to keep the Gate safe despite Soon's protection and so decided that the only safe way to do things was to just destroy it.