OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

[MReav]

This might well be the most repugnant thing you've ever said so far.

"It is important to remember simply that Imperials are usually evil, and even those that may not be so still serve an evil tyrant, or defend an evil social order, or grow food for evil warriors, or give birth to evil children. It is enough for us to destroy their evil society, and let any who survive reflect on the path of wickedness. Never hesitate to punish evil or support for evil, or tolerance for evil. "

[zimmerwald1915]

Is there one group you think does not deserve to die?

Not directed at me, and the discussion's probably moved on, but this is too on-the-nose to let pass: no. Death comes for us all, and will continue to do so barring some unforeseen breakthrough in medical science. Fittingly, we each do something to merit it at some point in our lives.

[terodil]

we each do something to merit it at some point in our lives.

Unless by 'something' you mean 'getting born', no. There are a lot of people who die without having done anything that merits some sort of karmic death penalty. The most obvious example being an infant dying to a terrible disease.

[Peelee]

Ok, that one can't discuss whatever topics in private is one thing (an odd choice, but whatever).

But that "private" messages can just be read by Mods is *really* a little more than awkward I must say.

Late to the party, but both things make a lot of sense. If the forum rules didn't apply to PMs, then people could flame you via PM, and if the mods couldn't access it you would have little recourse except to block said person. Just as a single example. Or you could encounter a banned topic and instead of posting it to the board, PM it to everyone involved in the chat, making the ban effectively worthless.

And, as has been pointed out, it's not like the mods are just peeking in whenever.

[woweedd]

Not directed at me, and the discussion's probably moved on, but this is too on-the-nose to let pass: no. Death comes for us all, and will continue to do so barring some unforeseen breakthrough in medical science. Fittingly, we each do something to merit it at some point in our lives.

So...V did nothing wrong, then?

[woweedd]

"It is important to remember simply that Imperials are usually evil, and even those that may not be so still serve an evil tyrant, or defend an evil social order, or grow food for evil warriors, or give birth to evil children. It is enough for us to destroy their evil society, and let any who survive reflect on the path of wickedness. Never hesitate to punish evil or support for evil, or tolerance for evil. "

A very Lawful Evil sentiment. In fact, The Weirdo's whole moral system, whereby there are ironclad rules that, once violated, only merit one punishment, with no sense of proportattion or circumsatnce, is a very Lawful way of thinking. A Chaotic person would judge on a case-by-case basis, i'd think.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Any suggestions? I'm recently started getting into coop games and love them, but my library is woefully small

Spirit Island is my current absolute favourite. But there is a large variation in themes even within co-op. What games do you usually enjoy? Worker placement ("Eurostyle")? Strategy? Fantasy?

I once felt very dirty when I tried out the biological weapons in Master of Orion 2 (I cheated a game to that tech simply because I wanted to see how that worked in the game on a technical level - and STILL felt bad after having killed the planet's population ).

I usually play the mind-control ability just so I don't have to bombard planets. The other advantages are great, don-t get me wrong, but the bombardment is something I simply don-t enjoy being forced to do (I have the same issue in Stellaris, but there, as far as I know, I have no other choice but to bomb planets into submission).

Grey Wolf

[The_Weirdo]

This might well be the most repugnant thing you've ever said so far.

Could be worse. I could be supporting (fictional) empires and imperialism.

[Ironsmith]

I usually play the mind-control ability just so I don't have to bombard planets. The other advantages are great, don-t get me wrong, but the bombardment is something I simply don-t enjoy being forced to do (I have the same issue in Stellaris, but there, as far as I know, I have no other choice but to bomb planets into submission).

Grey Wolf

You... you rob these people of their free will? You monster!

[Keltest]

Could be worse. I could be supporting (fictional) empires and imperialism.

There you have it folks, law and order are worse crimes than mass murder and indiscriminate genocide.

[HorizonWalker]

There you have it folks, law and order are worse crimes than mass murder and indiscriminate genocide.

To be more fair to the_weirdo than is deserved, imperialism very often involves mass murder and genocide. And often has far less actual interest in law and order than it professes.

[The_Weirdo]

There you have it folks, law and order are worse crimes than mass murder and indiscriminate genocide.

I am perfectly fine with Bajoran law and order. I am mostly okay (except for the Maquis) with Federation law and order.

Cardassian law and order are worse crimes than mass murder or indiscriminate genocide, though.

[Keltest]

To be more fair to the_weirdo than is deserved, imperialism very often involves mass murder and genocide. And often has far less actual interest in law and order than it professes.

Perhaps in practice, but T_W has pretty explicitly taken offense not to any actual harm that is being done by any given empire, but to the very concept of an orderly society.

[The_Weirdo]

Perhaps in practice, but T_W has pretty explicitly taken offense not to any actual harm that is being done by any given empire, but to the very concept of an orderly society.

Where did I?

Because, you see, taking offense at what the Firehelms do does not count.

[Tuhlore]

Hey hey
We're near approaching 6 years since the last gate destruction, yet in comic, six weeks haven't passed yet.

[Mightymosy]

Spirit Island is my current absolute favourite. But there is a large variation in themes even within co-op. What games do you usually enjoy? Worker placement ("Eurostyle")? Strategy? Fantasy?



I usually play the mind-control ability just so I don't have to bombard planets. The other advantages are great, don-t get me wrong, but the bombardment is something I simply don-t enjoy being forced to do (I have the same issue in Stellaris, but there, as far as I know, I have no other choice but to bomb planets into submission).

Grey Wolf

Yeah that's why I used to play Elerians almost exclusively, myself ;-)

Even later when I started trying out the other races, I never ever equipped my ships with bombs. Killing their combatants is one thing, but bombing their civilians? NO WAY.

I did find it weird though that the game punishes you for the biological weapons but not for bombing civilians (yes, at one point I had tried that as well to see what happens :-( ).

But, great as the game is, it does have a couple of flaws. Creative, for example

[terodil]

A very Lawful Evil sentiment. In fact, The Weirdo's whole moral system, whereby there are ironclad rules that, once violated, only merit one punishment, with no sense of proportattion or circumsatnce, is a very Lawful way of thinking. A Chaotic person would judge on a case-by-case basis, i'd think.

I'm not so sure that this particular moral system is as much lawful as it is all-out evil.

I guess this may be one of those cases where cultural background comes into play: In my part of the world, the principle of proportionality takes second seat only after human rights, pretty much. As such, one-size-fits-all punishments would be pretty unlawful -- especially capital punishments that are being discussed here (imagining, for a second, that they were still a thing). Even the abrahamic religions* have had proportionality built in for a long time: 'an eye for an eye' may strike some as barbaric, especially from today's perspective, but it was also significant, if not revolutionary, in codifying this principle: just an eye for an eye, not a head for an eye.**

Another thing that goes against 'lawful': it posits arbitrary cutoffs, or put differently, it assigns arbitrary importance to single events in a long chain. We already discussed that the 'but [he|she|it] started it' nonsense is akin to unravelling a knitted sock -- there's always going to be more thread. It imposes the rule of the strongest in that the one with the most ability, willingness and opportunity to impose their will on others (read: kill them for their unforgivable previous transgressions), defines the cutoff, and thereby, who dies and who lives. Sounds pretty CE to me. A truly lawful rendition of this approach would require systematically killing everyone along the chain, which most probably would also include the one currently airing grievances (terms, conditions and exceptions may apply).

--
* others most probably have had it too, as it's pretty much common sense***. Just mentioning these here as I lack expertise in others.
** also not going into whether they stuck to their own principles. I'm just interested in the concept. (spoiler: they didn't)
*** should be at least. This thread demonstrates that either it is not, common sense is not common, or some people lack common sense.

[Ironsmith]

* others most probably have had it too, as it's pretty much common sense***. Just mentioning these here as I lack expertise in others.

*** should be at least. This thread demonstrates that either it is not, common sense is not common, or some people lack common sense.

I'm gonna have to go with that third one. Everyone who's opined on The_Weirdo's view has disagreed with him strenuously on that point.

[The_Weirdo]

Folks: were the Ewoks treated as evil for killing and eating Stormtroopers?

[hamishspence]

They were treated as doing wrong in the animated Star Wars: Forces of Destiny episode that dealt with it - Leia dissuades them and saves the captured Stormtroopers who are about to be killed.

[The_Weirdo]

They were treated as doing wrong in the animated Star Wars: Forces of Destiny episode that dealt with it - Leia dissuades them and saves the captured Stormtroopers who are about to be killed.

Well, cartoons would likely have to bowlderize things, I guess.

[hamishspence]

It's a consistent thing in Star Wars (Legends and newcanon) that the Rebels believe that there is such a thing as "mistreating enemy prisoners" and don't do it.

So Forces of Destiny is doing nothing new here.

[Ironsmith]

Well, cartoons would likely have to bowlderize things, I guess.

Bowlderization comes in the form of a few changed lines and visual edits, not dedicating a whole episode to the matter.

[The_Weirdo]

It's a consistent thing in Star Wars (Legends and newcanon) that the Rebels believe that there is such a thing as "mistreating enemy prisoners" and don't do it.

So Forces of Destiny is doing nothing new here.

Guess I should have focused on Bajorans vs. Cardassians, then. Basically: those that resist imperialism in fiction get to do more than the imperialists. Because they are weaker, because they just want to be free, because they are not looking for any gain past what is rightfully theirs, because they didn't start it, etc.

[Fyraltari]

because they just want to be free, because they are not looking for any gain past what is rightfully there.

[insert laughing Bender meme here].

[The_Weirdo]

[insert laughing Bender meme here].

Fixed, thanks... Got distracted.

[Fyraltari]

I wasn’t commenting on your spelling.

[hamishspence]

Basically: those that resist imperialism in fiction get to do more than the imperialists.

Generally, they get to do less. Sympathetic resistance factions won't be using imperialist tactics like torture or targeting children.

[The_Weirdo]

I wasn’t commenting on your spelling.

Still, you helped me fix it.

Generally, they get to do less. Sympathetic resistance factions won't be using imperialist tactics like torture or targeting children.

Every resistance faction is sympathetic and correct to my eyes.

[Kish]

Your eyes are irrelevant.