OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

[Goblin_Priest]

Ah, a common misconception.

See, Episode 7 and 8 didn't really happen.

Consult the plethora of books instead if you want to know what happened after Episode 6 ;-)

That only invalidates like 1 issue among the many I brought up, though. ;)

Also, everyone knows the books were largely garbage. If I want B-level content, I'll try to dig up the Holiday Special instead. :P

[Peelee]

Agreed. Legends books had some gems, but they were definitely mostly duds, and a horrible bloated mess to boot.

Eh, I'd skew that ratio a bit towards "mostly mediocre with a good bit of duds," but that's just me.

[Clistenes]

It should be obvious that the kind of "resistance" I'm talking about is like the Bajoran resistance or the Rebels in SW. Both of whom were modeled on some very specific revolutionaries I will not allude to here due to forum rules.

And in order for an empire to be an empire in a work of fiction, the first thing it has to disregard is equality. The second is freedom. The third is democracy. The "bringing civilization to savages" bit is just an excuse.

Well, in your previous post you said you would always take the side of any resistance movement against any Empire... now you have narrowed the kind of resistance movement quite a bit.

And there are works of fiction in which "the Empire" is benevolent... Think of the emperor in the Mulan movie. Aragorn' kingdom of Gondor and Arnor could be considered an Empire too. The Fel Empire from the Star Wars Expanded Universe, the Malazan Empire from the Malazan Book of the Fallen, the Empire of the Star from the Eldraeverse and the Tamul Empire from The Tamuli by David Eddingswas are quite nice too...

For real life examples, look for information about the Five Good Emperors of the Roman Empire...

[Mightymosy]

That only invalidates like 1 issue among the many I brought up, though. ;)

Also, everyone knows the books were largely garbage. If I want B-level content, I'll try to dig up the Holiday Special instead. :P

Really, no love for the Thrawn trilogy even?

[The MunchKING]

Given the Star Wars mention, I believe that would be the Alliance to Restore the Republic...far better known as the Rebel Alliance.

... I hadn't heard that name for them.

But in that case say they are aristocratic, seems a bit like Zim is exaghgerating to try to discredit the Rebellion since of the two people with aristocratic titles, both are said to be ceremonial/meaningless and the leader's own skill in diplomacy is how they got their position in the Old Republic, and their willingness to fight (and fact that they owned ships) was what got them into the rebellion.

(And actually Padme died before the rebellion, so that leave Bail Organa and his daughter Leia as the only aristocrats)

Also, everyone knows the books were largely garbage. If I want B-level content, I'll try to dig up the Holiday Special instead. :P

I liked most of them.

And the Holiday Special is WAY Below even B-level. Am I allowed to make a grade worse than Z-Level? Because that's where I'd put that.

[Kish]

Really, no love for the Thrawn trilogy even?

The Thrawn trilogy suffers from being way too in love with its villain, to the point of Zahn forgetting in later books that he was actually a villain.

Still better on some points (notably treating droids as people) than the original movies, though on none does it approach the level of the movies you prefer to ignore. (It should go without saying that everything I've ever read for the EU is better than the prequel movies.)

[Goblin_Priest]

Really, no love for the Thrawn trilogy even?

I have read zero Star Wars novels. I had enough second-hand accounts to kill whatever interest there might have had (which in itself, was rather unlikely).

I'm not a huge expanded universe fan, no matter the universe. I prefer original content in more succinct stories in less detailed universes, than huge multi-authorial messes of infinite plot holes, inconsistencies, stale recycled crap, power creep, and cheap gimmicks.

Namely for many of these reasons I hate the sequels. And given Disney will launch their own streaming platform I have no intent to subscribe to, I'll probably never see ep 9.

[The_Weirdo]

Well, in your previous post you said you would always take the side of any resistance movement against any Empire... now you have narrowed the kind of resistance movement quite a bit.

And there are works of fiction in which "the Empire" is benevolent... Think of the emperor in the Mulan movie. Aragorn' kingdom of Gondor and Arnor could be considered an Empire too. The Fel Empire from the Star Wars Expanded Universe, the Malazan Empire from the Malazan Book of the Fallen, the Empire of the Star from the Eldraeverse and the Tamul Empire from The Tamuli by David Eddingswas are quite nice too...

I redacted the last remark because we are not discussing real life, as it is forbidden - even though fictional empires are usually modeled on real life ones.

A kingdom may be good or evil. A republic may be good or evil.

An empire is what happens when a land begins to invade other lands and make these other lands its lands and/or impose their order on those lands.

There's no such thing as a good empire. All empires are evil.

[hamishspence]

There's no such thing as a good empire. All empires are evil.

Hegemonic Empire

[The_Weirdo]

Hegemonic Empire

Do I need to repeat myself?

[Fyraltari]

Fiction has a lot of empires who aren't really bad. Generally modelled after the Roman Empire, like the Galactic Empire of the Foundation serie or the Tamriellic Empire of the Elder Scrolls. By the way, in the Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, siding with the Stormcloaks rebels against the Empire is siding with the faction that promotes racial inequality but religious freedom while the empire is the other way around (and even then the Talos worship ban is barely enforced because the Empire doesn't want to actually do it). So, who's the good guy, there?

[Peelee]

The Thrawn trilogy suffers from being way too in love with its villain, to the point of Zahn forgetting in later books that he was actually a villain.

Spoiler: Outbound Flight

Show

I won't say you're exactly wrong, but he does a whole lot of manipulation to be able to say "well technically it wasn't a pre-emptive strike," which is all fairly machiavellian.

[The_Weirdo]

Fiction has a lot of empires who aren't really bad. Generally modelled after the Roman Empire, like the Galactic Empire of the Foundation serie or the Tamriellic Empire of the Elder Scrolls. By the way, in the Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, siding with the Stormcloaks rebels against the Empire is siding with the faction that promotes racial inequality but religious freedom while the empire is the other way around (and even then the Talos worship ban is barely enforced because the Empire doesn't want to actually do it). So, who's the good guy, there?

There is none, until someone organizes a group that waits for the two sides to nearly destroy themselves and then suddenly takes over.

[Resileaf]

Fiction has a lot of empires who aren't really bad. Generally modelled after the Roman Empire, like the Galactic Empire of the Foundation serie or the Tamriellic Empire of the Elder Scrolls. By the way, in the Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, siding with the Stormcloaks rebels against the Empire is siding with the faction that promotes racial inequality but religious freedom while the empire is the other way around (and even then the Talos worship ban is barely enforced because the Empire doesn't want to actually do it). So, who's the good guy, there?

Also since the Nords are technically the fathers of the Empire, that means that the rebels are the ones who set up the Empire in the first place.

[Fyraltari]

I have read somewhere that the reason Thrwan is more heroic in prequel books than in the Trilogy is because, well, that's what happens when a bright young mind gets taken under Sidious' wing. Just ask Anakin.

[hamishspence]

There is none, until someone organizes a group that waits for the two sides to nearly destroy themselves and then suddenly takes over.

Like Palpatine with the Separatists and the Republic?

I have read somewhere that the reason Thrwan is more heroic in prequel books than in the Trilogy is because, well, that's what happens when a bright young mind gets taken under Sidious' wing. Just ask Anakin.

Even without Sidious directly mentoring Thrawn, working in the Empire for many years is bound to make initially good people much less good.

[The_Weirdo]

Like Palpatine with the Separatists and the Republic?

Nah. Wrong values.

[Fyraltari]

There is none, until someone organizes a group that waits for the two sides to nearly destroy themselves and then suddenly takes over.

Well, you've accepted that not all rebellions are to be rooted for. Progress.

Also since the Nords are technically the fathers of the Empire, that means that the rebels are the ones who set up the Empire in the first place.

Depends on which backstory for Tiber Septim you go with. He wasn't always a Nord, and anyway his Empire started in Cyrodiil.

[Resileaf]

Depends on which backstory for Tiber Septim you go with. He wasn't always a Nord, and anyway his Empire started in Cyrodiil.

Because of how insane the setting of the Elder Scrolls is, every backstory is true.

[The_Weirdo]

Well, you've accepted that not all rebellions are to be rooted for. Progress.

Nope.

I root against any and all empires and any and all external, authoritarian imposition of order.

What I root for is of no concern, not even to me.

[hamishspence]

What I root for is of no concern, not even to me.

Are you sure?

Every resistance faction is sympathetic and correct to my eyes.

[The_Weirdo]

Are you sure?

Well, they're sympathetic in that they're useful by fighting against a greater evil.

[hamishspence]

Sometimes the self-proclaimed "resistance faction" is the greater evil.

SW Legends had Kueller in A New Rebellion, the Yevetha in the Black Fleet Crisis, the Human League in The Corellia Trilogy.

[The_Weirdo]

Sometimes the self-proclaimed "resistance faction" is the greater evil.

I suppose it is true in some fiction. Doesn't mean I'll root for the empire, even if the rebels are "worse".

[hamishspence]

At least in Slaver's Bay, it's far easier to root for Daenerys than for the Sons of the Harpy.

[Kish]

Spoiler: Thrawn Duology

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I didn't mean a prequel. I meant the "you're totally unlike Thrawn, because you want revenge and he was all about building!" thing at the end of the duology.

Heir to the Empire Thrawn was all about refusing to let the Empire be defeated. No hint of any goal higher or more noble than the Emperor or Vader themselves. That was when he (sort of) worked in the only role he ever worked in at all: as a space opera villain, for whom more competence than the Emperor, Vader, and Tarkin meant "I've read the Evil Overlord's List," not "I'm not evil."

[Peelee]

Spoiler: Thrawn Duology

Show

I didn't mean a prequel. I meant the "you're totally unlike Thrawn, because you want revenge and he was all about building!" thing at the end of the duology.

Heir to the Empire Thrawn was all about refusing to let the Empire be defeated. No hint of any goal higher or more noble than the Emperor or Vader themselves. That was when he (sort of) worked in the only role he ever worked in at all: as a space opera villain, for whom more competence than the Emperor, Vader, and Tarkin meant "I've read the Evil Overlord's List," not "I'm not evil."

Ah, yeah, I getcha. Pellaeon was always better anyway, IMO.

[hamishspence]

Ah, yeah, I getcha. Pellaeon was always better anyway, IMO.

Pellaeon did participate in Imperial slaving expeditions on Kashyyyk, according to Heir to the Empire.

[Peelee]

Pellaeon did participate in Imperial slaving expeditions on Kashyyyk, according to Heir to the Empire.

Forgot about that part. Hopefully Vanto can get all the character without the slaving.

[hamishspence]

Forgot about that part. Hopefully Vanto can get all the character without the slaving.

Given that he's slated to return in Thrawn: Treason, I suspect we'll be getting a bit more of Vanto's perspective.