Why not call off the wager?

[CJG]

Pardon if it’s been discussed.

Loki doesn’t want the world to end, Thor does t want the world to end, why can’t they just say “Hel, didn’t realize you were hurting so bad, let call off the bet k? You get evil dwarves and Thor gets good ones (or whatever makes sense)”

Granted, she’d probably still go forth with her plan regardless, why not, but how come the good(ish) guys aren’t even trying to fix this?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Pardon if it’s been discussed.

Loki doesn’t want the world to end, Thor does t want the world to end, why can’t they just say “Hel, didn’t realize you were hurting so bad, let call off the bet k? You get evil dwarves and Thor gets good ones (or whatever makes sense)”

Granted, she’d probably still go forth with her plan regardless, why not, but how come the good(ish) guys aren’t even trying to fix this?

I would imagine it's for the same reason they can't change anything else about the world: it was built into this version when they re-created snarl's prison using the threads of reality, and to change the bet they need to destroy the world and re-create it.

Grey Wolf

[CJG]

I would imagine it's for the same reason they can't change anything else about the world: it was built into this version when they re-created snarl's prison using the threads of reality, and to change the bet they need to destroy the world and re-create it.

Grey Wolf

Huh. I’ll take that to the shop. Thanks!

[jwhouk]

Also, even if they could, the only way Hel would go along with it would be to be named Queen of the Northern Pantheon. That's not going to happen, methinks.

[factotum]

It's too late in the day to call off the wager. Even if it was removed now, Hel still has no living clerics and is hated generally by all of dwarfkind, so it would take decades or even centuries--most likely the latter, given how long dwarfs live--before her worship could recover enough to put her back on an even keel with the other gods. Why would she accept that when her plan gives her such power?

[Wizard_Lizard]

why only get bad dwarves whenyou can get ALL dwarves?

[Quebbster]

No backsies.

[Fyraltari]

If they could, they would have centuries ago when both Hel and Thor realized what sitation they were in.

[Nith]

The real explanation is likely that Hel wouldn't become leader of the Northern pantheon that way, but it's possible that she simply thinks the world should be destroyed on the merits. About half of the gods reached that conclusion anyway.

The risk Hel is taking is that her plan might fail and then she is still stuck in the wager, but she's currently banking on it succeding.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Her options would be.
Become leader of the gods.
Or
Become an average goddess.
hmmm. which one would the power hungry crazy goddess pick?
I wonder...

[Morquard]

The real explanation is likely that Hel wouldn't become leader of the Northern pantheon that way, but it's possible that she simply thinks the world should be destroyed on the merits. About half of the gods reached that conclusion anyway.

The risk Hel is taking is that her plan might fail and then she is still stuck in the wager, but she's currently banking on it succeding.

And if it fails, she could then still try and get the bet revoked, Thor would likely go for it even then, he doesn't seem to be happy with the current status quo either. IF it was possible, which I doubt.

[Emanick]

If they could, they would have centuries ago when both Hel and Thor realized what sitation they were in.

She might have realized that she would eventually benefit when the world inevitably ended, and so she was never willing to call off the bet. If the Order permanently ends the threat of The Snarl, she may be a lot more willing to call it off - at that point she no longer has anything to gain.

Also, I’m like 60% sure that the horrible situation that the dwarves are in will not be allowed to persist for eternity (the ones who will die in the future, that is - the ones already with Hel are probably doomed). It’s just a gut feeling that I don’t fully trust (hence the 60%, not 100%), but that feels like the sort of thing that Rich would bring to an end as part of the closure for the story. “What will dwarven culture look like in the future if they’re no longer essentially forced to die with honor?” sounds like a question he would enjoy posing, if not something he would ever answer.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It's too late in the day to call off the wager. Even if it was removed now, Hel still has no living clerics and is hated generally by all of dwarfkind, so it would take decades or even centuries--most likely the latter, given how long dwarfs live--before her worship could recover enough to put her back on an even keel with the other gods. Why would she accept that when her plan gives her such power?

I'm not sure it would take that long. After all, once the bet is gone she can also start proselytizing humans, elves, gnomes, etc. I'm sure there are many necromancers who would find her an acceptable patron deity.

[Riftwolf]

I would imagine it's for the same reason they can't change anything else about the world: it was built into this version when they re-created snarl's prison using the threads of reality, and to change the bet they need to destroy the world and re-create it.

Grey Wolf

I'm going with this explanation too. God bets aren't some lame truth-or-dare; they're hardbaked into reality and only the apocalypse revokes them.

[Fyraltari]

I'm not sure it would take that long. After all, once the bet is gone she can also start proselytizing humans, elves, gnomes, etc. I'm sure there are many necromancers who would find her an acceptable patron deity.

Elves are Westerners.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Also, I’m like 60% sure that the horrible situation that the dwarves are in will not be allowed to persist for eternity (the ones who will die in the future, that is - the ones already with Hel are probably doomed). It’s just a gut feeling that I don’t fully trust (hence the 60%, not 100%), but that feels like the sort of thing that Rich would bring to an end as part of the closure for the story. “What will dwarven culture look like in the future if they’re no longer essentially forced to die with honor?” sounds like a question he would enjoy posing, if not something he would ever answer.

That would be kinda neat; I'm not sure it's something that can be resolved in a satisfying manner without consuming more space than it's worth, but it would be neat.

I'm not sure it would take that long. After all, once the bet is gone she can also start proselytizing humans, elves, gnomes, etc. I'm sure there are many necromancers who would find her an acceptable patron deity.

Necromancers, yes, but I wouldn't think humans, elves, or gnomes would much like the death god. Comes with the job; nobody wants to tick you off, but nobody wants to praise you eternally either. If Hel were proselytizing strategically, she'd pick the races which don't have well-established pantheons. Definitely not elves, probably not humans, but I bet she'd be willing to collaborate with The Dark One. (Seems like she'd appeal more to the northern bugbears than Redcloak's faith did. Besides, TDO's followers seem more undead-tolerant than most races.)

[Fyraltari]

Necromancers, yes, but I wouldn't think humans, elves, or gnomes would much like the death god. Comes with the job; nobody wants to tick you off, but nobody wants to praise you eternally either.

Yes they would. In fact they used to.

[Darth Paul]

Necromancers, yes, but I wouldn't think humans, elves, or gnomes would much like the death god. Comes with the job; nobody wants to tick you off, but nobody wants to praise you eternally either. If Hel were proselytizing strategically, she'd pick the races which don't have well-established pantheons. Definitely not elves, probably not humans, but I bet she'd be willing to collaborate with The Dark One. (Seems like she'd appeal more to the northern bugbears than Redcloak's faith did. Besides, TDO's followers seem more undead-tolerant than most races.)

I imagine that's kind of YMMV depending on the human, elf, or gnome we're talking about. After all, don't all species have teenagers who think it's "edgy" to dress in black and pretend vampires are cool?

I think she just needs better marketing. And maybe a series of trashy novels.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Elves are Westerners.

They can still change patron deities.

And necromancers are just one example. Hel could also inspire a cult that works to kill off anyone who got raised or resurrected*. One life per customer! Death metal bards are possible too.


*and that would get some inevitables working for her too.

[Fyraltari]

They can still change patron deities.

Can they? All Dwarves fall into the purview of the Northern Gods, if they could have switched pantheon I think a significant portion would have rather than be honour-bound, yet they haven't. Given that every single Elf we've seen is a Westerner, the "Elven Lands" are in the West and the Elven Gods get to vote only as part of the Western Pantheon, I don't think they get to change either.

[Rogar Demonblud]

V's converting to Banjoism was considered possible instead of anyone dismissing it out of hand. And I'm pretty sure I've seen at least one quote from the Giant on the subject of dwarves converting to the Southern Pantheon. Let me go check.

[ijuinkun]

It seems like the only reason being sent to Hel sucks is because Hel herself chooses to treat poorly those souls that she receives. It's by her choice alone that most of the souls she controls are condemned to torment (e.g. how she treated the ones cleaning her throne in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1082.html ). If they were say, merely forced to labor for Hel and not actively tormented by her, then such an afterlife might be tolerable instead of horrifying.

[Rrmcklin]

{snip}


Necromancers, yes, but I wouldn't think humans, elves, or gnomes would much like the death god. Comes with the job; nobody wants to tick you off, but nobody wants to praise you eternally either. If Hel were proselytizing strategically, she'd pick the races which don't have well-established pantheons. Definitely not elves, probably not humans, but I bet she'd be willing to collaborate with The Dark One. (Seems like she'd appeal more to the northern bugbears than Redcloak's faith did. Besides, TDO's followers seem more undead-tolerant than most races.)

I'm fairly certain "necromancer" is just a descriptor of a for a person who focuses in the necromancy school (or whatever they're called) of casting, and not a separate race, and so I'm not sure why you're making the distinction.

And as Hel is a part of, seemingly unchangeably (quiddity and all) of the Northern Pantheon, I doubt she could do what you've suggested.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Wait....
When Haley converted to Thor worship, doe that mean that if se dies withoit honor, is she doomed to hel?

[factotum]

Wait....
When Haley converted to Thor worship, doe that mean that if se dies withoit honor, is she doomed to hel?

No, because the wager only applies to dwarfs, not everyone who worships the northern gods.

[Fyraltari]

Wait....
When Haley converted to Thor worship, doe that mean that if se dies withoit honor, is she doomed to hel?

The Giant explained (help me, Jasdoif Kenobanana, you are my only hope) that she’d have to believe in the honor-dependent punishment system for Hel’s status as goddess of the dishonored dead to affect her.

Also she didn’t actually convert.

[Wizard_Lizard]

The Giant explained (help me, Jasdoif Kenobanana, you are my only hope) that she’d have to believe in the honor-dependent punishment system for Hel’s status as goddess of the dishonored dead to affect her.

Also she didn’t actually convert.

Yes I know.
But you bring up an interesting poit. What ifa dwarf was raised by elves and grew up to believe in the western pantheon, not ever hearing abkut the whole honour thing, let alone believing in it. Where would they go if they died dishonorably?

[Fyraltari]

Yes I know.
But you bring up an interesting poit. What ifa dwarf was raised by elves and grew up to believe in the western pantheon, not ever hearing abkut the whole honour thing, let alone believing in it. Where would they go if they died dishonorably?

To Hel. They’re a dwarf, thus subject to the Bet, thus what they believe in doesn’t matter.

[Wizard_Lizard]

To Hel. They’re a dwarf, thus subject to the Bet, thus what they believe in doesn’t matter.

What if they did not even know that those gods existed. Wat if they thought that they were a halfling or a gnome their whole life?

[Fyraltari]

What if they did not even know that those gods existed. Wat if they thought that they were a halfling or a gnome their whole life?

They’d be very surprised and Hel would get a great ice-breaker at evil god parties is my guess. Well if anybody other than Thrym ever invited her, of course.