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2019-07-16, 11:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-07-16, 11:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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2019-07-16, 11:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2018
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2019-07-16, 11:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2018
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2019-07-16, 11:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-07-16, 12:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
Re: OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread
I’m certainly not a legal scholar, but I have the vague sense that most civil cases are decided based on facts, and judgments are based on a theory of restitution or punitive damages to discourage specific behaviors or redress specific harms.
Although I recognize I have an idealized vision of the world, I believe judges are discouraged from simply punishing a party because the judge believes they “deserve” it.Last edited by Dion; 2019-07-16 at 12:03 PM.
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2019-07-16, 12:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
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- Glasgow, Scotland
Re: OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread
Regarding the whole question of whether Hilgya is right in her loophole theory, I really do not see what narrative purpose would be served by the reveal that Loki is just lying and she's going to Hel anyway.
The strip doesn't seem to be hinting at that, Loki seems earnestly proud of Hilgya for following his philosophy, so the only reason to do this would be to add some kind of unexpected twist to punish the character who is looking for a way out of her very traditionalist society (and who ran from a literal crossbow marriage), and all others who are looking for a way out. That doesn't strike me as a direction the comic is interested in exploring, as the only thing it would add is the confirmation that yup, Loki sure is chaotic for no reason, how fun.
If anything, this whole book has been a study on the ways that dwarven society finds to escape Hel, be it by picking a fight with a conifer or a different interpretation of honor. I'm guessing Loki needs souls just like every other deity (especially among dwarves, since they automatically go to Hel) , so I think it's fair to say that his selling point is providing a shelter from both Hel and a life wholly devoted to honor. This incidentally just happens to be the right way to piss off both Hel and Thor, so Loki and the believer all get what they want. That's chaotic enough to me without adding a cruel twist for shock value..
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SpoilerIt's like, a secret to everybody or whatever.
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2019-07-16, 12:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2005
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Re: OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread
Sheriff: I would suggest taking this in a non-real world political direction, avoiding anything to do with real world governments and their various systems and branches.
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2019-07-16, 12:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
Re: OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread
The reveal would not be that Loki is lying to her, but that he never said anything of the sort and instead she's delusional and she came up with a justification for her actions that in no way shape or form matches reality. I.e. consistent with all her other delusions about what is going on versus what is really going on. The reveal would further be that Loki doesn't care about her, what with him being an Evil god, and thus when Hel claims her soul because she died dishonorably, Loki shrugs and says "sure, whatever, she's no longer amusing to watch".
Grey WolfInterested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2019-07-16, 12:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Singapore
Re: OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread
Yes, but "fine with me, hardly any of these were mine anyway" implies he would not be fine with Hel just taking a bunch of souls that ought to go with him. So the implication that he'd just cheerfully let a cleric go to Hel is false.
Like I said, he has several pressing reasons not to let the souls of anyone who might be contacted or resurrected, in particular, go to Hel, because once word gets out that he's not protecting his followers after death, they're going to abandon him.
Regarding the whole question of whether Hilgya is right in her loophole theory, I really do not see what narrative purpose would be served by the reveal that Loki is just lying and she's going to Hel anyway.
Otherwise the faith of Loki would fall apart the first time someone who died in dishonor gets resurrected or otherwise contacted and says "yeah, Loki didn't stand up for me." Heck, Hilgya has Plane Shift - she can physically visit the afterlife and see what happens to the dead with her own eyes. And so can every other high-level Cleric of Loki.Last edited by Aquillion; 2019-07-16 at 12:17 PM.
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2019-07-16, 12:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
Re: OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread
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2019-07-16, 12:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
Re: OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread
Whether they deserve the level of harm you inflict on them is absolutely the basis for whether it's evil or not. That's why good adventures ARE allowed to kill the goblins in an adventure. Because they did something to deserve it, like kill your civilians. But they are NOT allowed to just kill ALL the Goblins. Most of them didn't do anything to deserve it.
Humiliation is far lighter than killing, and (again in the case of Trickster Gods) is usually better because ideally the humiliated target will learn from their humiliation and quit doing what ever it is that caused them to deserve to be humiliated."Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman
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2019-07-16, 12:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
Re: OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread
It is not absurd if she's the first one to come up with the loophole. It is not absurd if Loki has never said, taught or promised that this is a loophole that exists. It is not absurd, in short, if this is an assumption of Hilgya consistent with all her assumptions of how the universe works, going all the way back to "polite offers of foot massages are an attack on her freedom".
Grey WolfLast edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2019-07-16 at 12:20 PM.
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2019-07-16, 12:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2018
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Re: OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread
I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish
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2019-07-16, 12:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
Re: OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread
That’s not how I interpret it.
He pointed at a pile of dwarven souls and said “I don’t care about this pile of souls because of some stupid, selfish, petty excuse.”
That doesn’t mean that he really does care, but this particular pile somehow fell just short of his exacting standards.
To me, it just means that he really doesn’t care, and he has stupid selfish petty excuses for not caring.Last edited by Dion; 2019-07-16 at 12:31 PM.
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2019-07-16, 12:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
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- Glasgow, Scotland
Re: OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread
Why would Hilgya be completely delusional about the afterlife, while Thor's followers get to be right? I mean as a conscious choice for the character. The only reason to do that would be to punish her for not wanting to live in a society that forces her to marry (the crossbow was not a foot massage), and I think the comic has made it clear, through Sigdi, that her mistake was hurting Durkon (or you know, the threat that she might do it again, which Sigdi is implied to have taken care of), not refusing the proposal. Punishing her for hurting Durkon by pulling the rug from under her feet regarding ETERNAL DAMNATION -due to not having lived a honor bound life she never agreed to- is a little much to me. I get that she has been shown to come to conclusions easily, but this strip seems to show that this conclusion in particular is not that far fetched. Through literal word of (a) god, no less.
Idk maybe Hilgya just kind of resonates with people who may have been told they'd go to hell for somethign they have no control over, and who had to look for new value systems that do not invalidate their choices. Also fire, pretty..
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SpoilerIt's like, a secret to everybody or whatever.
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2019-07-16, 12:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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- Brazil
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Re: OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread
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2019-07-16, 12:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
Re: OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread
This is nonsense. All dwarves, not just "Thor's followers" know what the rules are. And Hilgya is delusional, this would just be one more thing she is delusional about.
And now you are simply skating past her murder, attempted murders, planned murders, theft, character assassination, etc., which tells me there is no reason for me to continue this conversation.
That's what I get for giving second chances.
Grey WolfLast edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2019-07-16 at 12:53 PM.
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2019-07-16, 12:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread
The difference is that we've not only seen a near universal belief that the world works the way Thor says it does, as well as every god in the pantheon agreeing, and an entire Evil Plane based on it, we've seen massive evidence to support it - every scene involving a Dwarven afterlife shows that "die with honor or you go to Hel" is in effect. Meanwhile, the only thing we have to support Hilgya's claim is that a single psychopathic egomaniac confidently declares the world works that way - with no god, not even hers, so much as commenting on it.
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2019-07-16, 12:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread
Well, in order to restore your faith in humanity with regards to second chances (mind you, Verappo is not me), you only need to stop conflating Hilgya's absolute, sacred right not to be married to someone who is not her choice and the attempted murder of Ivan or her bankrupting the sexual traffickers that were her "family". Unless, of course, you truly do see both in the same, or similar, lights?
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2019-07-16, 01:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
Re: OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread
As I said, it's a great ongoing debate, between various systems, editions, and Gamemasters. D&D 3e isn't the only game that uses some version of the good-evil, order-chaos alignment system.
Personally, I find that the following setup works the best, in terms of keeping track of characters, making sense of the gods, providing rule-of-thumb explanations for how well different alignments get along, driving the story, and providing equal representation to each position on the grid.
Good: can inflict major harm or loss on others, provided it is reasonably justified and necessary, for the benefit of all, or in accordance with a reasonably fair and moral system.
Neutral: can inflict major harm or loss on others, out of 'mere' selfishness, greed, apathy, mild corruption, or according to the ideology of a facially neutral system or organization.
Evil: Can and should inflict major harm or loss on others, out of malice, sadism, cruelty, nihilism, or spitefulness.
I'm well aware that a lot of systems and interpretations disagree with me on this, but I find that this way leaves a lot more room for 'mild' corruption and asocial behaviors among the neutral alignments, makes the evil alignments more clearly despicable, and does less to lock the 'Good' characters into moral straightjackets.
Otherwise I tend to see problems occur where no-one wants to play a good character, and lots of people don't think that having a clearly evil-aligned character in the party is a very big deal....
in that situation, it usually turns out that their working definition of 'evil' is pretty close to my working definition of 'neutral', and their definition of 'neutral' is pretty close to my definition of 'good'.
Like I said, a lot of people, and a lot of systems or editions, agree with you. It just gives me a headache, and I prefer my method. For example, the Kalamar system pantheon tends to follow the definitions I just used.
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2019-07-16, 01:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
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Re: OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread
Not that I'm keeping tabs, but Hilgya has been wrong about LOTS of things in the comic. It's not a stretch at all to think she could be wrong about her chances to avoid Hel by following Loki's teachings.
It might well be true, and Thor has advocated even flimsier cases (although we don't know whether he won). But there's plenty of room for doubt.ungelic is us
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2019-07-16, 01:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
Re: OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread
But we are not here to discuss your or Kalamar's system. We are here to discuss the OotS, which uses the D&D alignment system, where harming others is Evil. Purposely, to a great degree, to highlight its issues. But it does no good to say "this person is not Evil because in my classification, 'mild' corruption and asocial behaviors are Neutral". Whether that is a better or worse system, it's not the one in place in the comic.
Grey WolfLast edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2019-07-16 at 01:09 PM.
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2019-07-16, 01:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
Re: OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread
yeah, but Kalamar is written for the 3e system, and depending on the GM's point of view, the d20 alignment rules can be read either way. I blame sloppy copyediting; the d20 rules always seemed kind of skewed to me, with it being really unclear which of several possible measuring sticks they meant to use for good-evil vs law-chaos, and the text as written inconsistently switching between different measuring sticks at different times.
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2019-07-16, 01:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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Re: OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2019-07-16, 01:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread
Off the top of my head, she's a fairly important character, portrayed quite a bit, with a somehow-controversial backstory. The system is already described as horribly unfair and dwarves that drink themselves to death are canonically described as dying with honor. All of it means that Hilgya going to Hel would be viewed as tacit or clear endorsement of the narrative that Hilgya deserves punishment for bankrupting a sex trafficking ring - and that her loophole, incidentally, is somehow flimsier than "liver battle".
That, of course, assuming she dies and assuming the bet doesn't come undone because of Hel's meddling. I doubt she'll die (or, at least, die without being rezzed), not the least of it because it would condemn Kudzu to the same issue Durkon faced as a child, and it has already been described as something terribly unfair to him.
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2019-07-16, 01:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
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Re: OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread
?
Anyway, what I am saying is that there's not really proof that the loophole theory is wrong, Maybe next strip Loki will say "Whatever Hilgya, the sucker thinks she'll go to Valhalla lol", but right now he seems proud of her and accepts/shares her disruptive attitude. Moreover, If we're meant to think she's wrong, I think the comic would have been clearer about this on the strip where she shared this philosophy, as it's never shied away from pointing out her other delusions (like when he portrayed Durkon as a casanova and her point of view on the matter came up repeatedly with Haley and Minrah, and was shot down immediately and unsubtly).
It's harder here because we have no history to inform us on the matter of course, but again, I don't really see what that would add to the story other than showing Hilgya was wrong about another thing and ahah, she's receiving eternal damnation. Also I don't think she's dying in the comic, so it would have to be a pointed comment by Loki aimed solely at reassuring us that Hilgya is going to Hel. The strip has been kinder to eviler characters..
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SpoilerIt's like, a secret to everybody or whatever.
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2019-07-16, 01:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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Re: OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2019-07-16, 01:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
Re: OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread
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2019-07-16, 01:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
Re: OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est