The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

[StevenC21]

-0.

No intelligence or con score. Bad stats. 15 construct RHD.

[liquidformat]

-0 on psion killer, it has a lot going wrong and almost nothing going right

[GreatWyrmGold]

Honestly, I'm strongly reminded of 4e's shardmind art here, just more buff. I guess there's only that many ways to draw crystalline psionic humanoids.

That's giving the character designer too much credit. I don't see anything in the Psion-Killer that says "psionic," just "big crystal dude". Physically imposing, but not a scrap of psychic anything.

A clear -0. I wish they kept 3.0 magic immunity, like the elh colossi. Needs to be more magic = nope, no workaround, critters imo.

IMHO, the better solution would be to reduce the power of mages to the point that magic == nope creatures weren't needed.

Also being non Intelligent, and psions being int based, seems odd to send something braindead against likely the smartest person around. Quite a misnomer. You can beat it by turning a corner. Or with good ol' silent image or the like.

Depends on the quality of the programmer.
And there's something...literary about the concept of sending a mindless brute to destroy someone whose power comes from cunning. "There's no tactics for you to outwit, no enchantments for you to subvert, no loopholes to exploit. Just a hammer falling down on your head."

[liquidformat]

That's giving the character designer too much credit. I don't see anything in the Psion-Killer that says "psionic," just "big crystal dude". Physically imposing, but not a scrap of psychic anything.

I thought he was specifically referring to the picture?...

Depends on the quality of the programmer.
And there's something...literary about the concept of sending a mindless brute to destroy someone whose power comes from cunning. "There's no tactics for you to outwit, no enchantments for you to subvert, no loopholes to exploit. Just a hammer falling down on your head."

Ya that is pretty much what I was thinking...

[StevenC21]

"There's no tactics for you to outwit, no enchantments for you to subvert, no loopholes to exploit. Just a hammer falling down on your head."

"So I Greater Teleport'ed to my private demiplane and nuked the golem and the surrounding ten miles to be safe"

[GreatWyrmGold]

I thought he was specifically referring to the picture?...

So was I.

"So I Greater Teleport'ed to my private demiplane and nuked the golem and the surrounding ten miles to be safe"

Never claimed the tactics were sound.

[javcs]

The problem with sending a psion-killer out to kill somebody is that it's super dumb and limited, even for a mindless golem.
Per the description, it can't (and doesn't) do anything without clear orders to do so, and it can only handle one relatively simple order at a time.
Also, it allegedly can't use weapons even if explicitly ordered to do so.

So ... yeah. Save the money and buy some trained attack cats. They'll be more effective.
Or, y'know, spend the money on a Planar Ally/Binding casting and negotiation, and get something genuinely useful.

[lord_khaine]

"So I Greater Teleport'ed to my private demiplane and nuked the golem and the surrounding ten miles to be safe"

Something showing that in this case the hammer wasnt big enough.
Since it didnt walk though the nuke, and into your private demiplane.

[Thurbane]

Again, limited knowledge of psionics, but looks pretty straightforward.

15HD, unremarkable stats apart from Str +20, a bunch of immunities and resistances, and a special attack that is a spammable 3rd level spell (sorry, power)?

LA -0.

Just for my own use in future games as a DM, transparency would mean that it can dispel magic as well, right?

[lord_khaine]

Just for my own use in future games as a DM, transparency would mean that it can dispel magic as well, right?

Yes it can.

[javcs]

Just for my own use in future games as a DM, transparency would mean that it can dispel magic as well, right?

That's correct.

Although since it's just normal Dispel and not the Greater version, the +10 limit on the dispel check hurts.
Especially since it is a CR 12, and you need to have a manifester level of 16 or greater to make one in the first place.

[Thurbane]

Yes it can.

Just curious, your avatar strikes a resemblance to the Psion-Killer...

[Zaq]

Trivial -0. Nothing it has comes close to being worth 15 levels even ignoring the mindlessness.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I'm looking forward to MMV because it has golems that might make the cut. A pile of terrible hit dice, bleh abilities. This thing would struggle to threaten a fighter, let alone a psion. -0

[Aniikinis]

Yup, -0 with no real debating. I'm wondering when we're gonna get to Libris Mortis or Incarnum.

[Blue Jay]

Looking at the votes, it seems like people generally agree on what any given set of abilities should be rated, it's just that people base their ratings on 3-4 very different assumptions.

With that in mind, the psicrystal will get a LA of -0/+0, with the entry elaborating on those, to account for different versions of the crystal. I hope everybody can agree to this compromise, and that we can move on to the next monster.

If it matters, I think LA -0* is the best representation of the consensus. I lobbied pretty hard for a minority opinion, but democracy is democracy: most people seemed to vote for LA -0 (with or without the asterisk), regardless of their starting assumptions, and the asterisk is just a precautionary measure, not a substantive change to the vote, so I'd personally be perfectly content to accept that.

Sorry if I'm (once again) taking debates further than people want them to go. I didn't mean to offend.

-----

Also, I vote LA-0 for the psion-killer.

[lord_khaine]

Just curious, your avatar strikes a resemblance to the Psion-Killer...

Well spotted!
Its indeed one of the happy red crystal guys.

[danielxcutter]

These are one of those rare CR = HD monsters, aren't they? So by the opinions of the people who have voted, this would still suck even as a CR 15 monster, then?

[lord_khaine]

These are one of those rare CR = HD monsters, aren't they? So by the opinions of the people who have voted, this would still suck even as a CR 15 monster, then?

No its only CR 12.

[Thurbane]

No its only CR 12.

True.

I would have some serious misgivings that this would present much of a challenge to even a slightly optimized ECL 12 party.

[javcs]

True.

I would have some serious misgivings that this would present much of a challenge to even a slightly optimized ECL 12 party.

Also true. It sucks at level 12. On the other hand ... you could reasonably expect to see a single CR 12 starting around level 8 or so.

But on its own, the psion-killer is pretty crap, no question.
On the other hand, the mere presence of one indicates that you're near something that a high level full manifester has an interest in, since the creator needs to be 16th or higher. So meeting one is still (probably) bad news at level 12. On the upside, the creator was dumb enough to build one.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Yup, -0 with no real debating. I'm wondering when we're gonna get to Libris Mortis or Incarnum.

I'm holding out hope for Savage Species.

-0, for all the reasons elaborated upon above.

[lord_khaine]

True.

I would have some serious misgivings that this would present much of a challenge to even a slightly optimized ECL 12 party.

Its very few CR X things that present any sort of challenge to a level X party.
Thats not how the system works. Its not like a Level 1 fighter presents a meaningful challenge to a level 1 party, where he is outnumbered 1 to 4.

[danielxcutter]

Its very few CR X things that present any sort of challenge to a level X party.
Thats not how the system works. Its not like a Level 1 fighter presents a meaningful challenge to a level 1 party, where he is outnumbered 1 to 4.

How do you define "meaningful challenge", for that matter? I'm fairly sure equal-CR encounters mean "not a roflstomp" instead of "difficult".

[lord_khaine]

How do you define "meaningful challenge", for that matter? I'm fairly sure equal-CR encounters mean "not a roflstomp" instead of "difficult".

In this specific case, something that will on average consume 25% of the party's resources.

[GreatWyrmGold]

These are one of those rare CR = HD monsters, aren't they? So by the opinions of the people who have voted, this would still suck even as a CR 15 monster, then?

Monsters can get away with being beatsticks with a gimmick more than PCs can, and "I turn off your magic" is a pretty effective gimmick.

[Inevitability]

Puppeteer

I've actually had a player use one of those before. It went pretty well, if by 'well' you mean 'took over part of the globe'.

These charming (hah!) worms are Fine-sized magical beasts, whose 1/4th of a HD can be swapped out normally. Ability-wise they take a massive penalty to strength, but receive bonuses to dexterity, intelligence, charisma, and especially wisdom. Movement speed is terrible, their one natural attack sucks, and they definitely don't have limbs, but the special abilities definitely outweigh those disadvantages.

Said special abilities, roughly in order of desirability, are Hide Mind (immunity to divination spells that'd reveal you as psionic), 60 ft. Blindsight, 20 ft. Telepathy, some PLAs that we'll get to later, and finally Enthrall.

What does Enthrall entail? Well, it allows you to dominate any charmed creature you're in contact with. Additionally, orders that go against the victim's nature can't allow it to break free, and the entire effect is completely nonmagical. Furthermore, the puppeteer's Host Protection ability allows it to use its opponent's saves and gives ranged attacks against it a random chance to hit the host instead.

It's not entirely clear whether this effect ends when the underlying charm ends (as opposed to lasting as long as physical contact), but if it does then that's obviously a significant limiter on the power. You can get somewhat around this by just taking levels in a caster class (as you were probably going to do anyway) and manually using Charm powers, or (arguably) by taking Practiced Magic from the Shackled City hardcover and just augmenting your innate charms to last for days.

The SLAs are interesting but limited: 3/day Mental Barrier, Detect Psionics, and Psionic Charm have their uses (especially together with Enthrall), but aren't too impressive. The fixed CL of 1 doesn't help.

While Enthrall's wording isn't the clearest, the package of great mental boosts, Fine size, Telepathy, and a few nifty SLAs seems to justify a positive LA here. Sure, not having limbs sucks, but it sucks a lot less if you're going to be a caster and also get a dominated proxy body to stack your loot on.

Having reviewed community feedback, the LA shall be +2. DMs should keep Enthrall in mind, but it's not game-breaking to the extent that it needs an asterisk.

[Inevitability]

By the way, because I suspect that the puppeteer is going to provoke quite a bit of debate and because it's a totally different monster, the Flesh Harrower variant will not be reviewed along with it.

[MisterKaws]

It's a 3/day save-or-die with a very very high DC(after point-buy), plus telepathy, great ability scores besides Strength, Fine size and Magical Beast type. Just the psi-likes would make it a +1, considering that's equivalent to (or better than) a level 1 Psion, but the rest of it pushes it to +2 in my opinion.

[Inevitability]

It's a 3/day save-or-die with a very very high DC(after point-buy), plus telepathy, great ability scores besides Strength, Fine size and Magical Beast type. Just the psi-likes would make it a +1, considering that's equivalent to (or better than) a level 1 Psion, but the rest of it pushes it to +2 in my opinion.

Not going to fault the rest of your reasoning, but level 1 psion has the added benefit of giving you access to level 2 psion and so on. Given that caster power increases exponentially, and that most characters will be above level 1, that's actually pretty relevant.