An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower

[Saph]

None of them look very good IMO. I guess they might look better when we see them acting?

The people from the Two Rivers are supposed to be an isolated population of backwater farmers. This cast . . . does not look like that at all.

[The_Snark]

Keep in mind the photos we're looking are not meant to make them look like they came from a pseudo-medieval rural farming community; they're meant to make them look like glamorous movie stars. To take an example from a different movie, if you look at these pictures you might think that actress would make a terrible Eowyn, but once makeup and costuming is done with her you get this.

[Anteros]

Apparently tiny isolated farming communities in medieval times are somehow very diverse. I'm all for representation but it just makes no sense for people who are all from the same small stock to look so different from each other. I'd honestly rather they just change everyone and keep the setting consistent than this nonsense miss-match.

Especially when you consider a huge part of Rand's story is how he feels isolated because of being different.

[Iruka]

Apparently tiny isolated farming communities in medieval times are somehow very diverse. I'm all for representation but it just makes no sense for people who are all from the same small stock to look so different from each other. I'd honestly rather they just change everyone and keep the setting consistent than this nonsense miss-match.

Especially when you consider a huge part of Rand's story is how he feels isolated because of being different.

Spoiler

Show

Keep in mind that it is not the same as a medieval village from our world. The Two Rivers are a backwater dump, but built on the ruins of a past poerful kingdom. Before that, a high tech civilisation existed that then got jumbled all over the place. Thinking about it, the distinct looks of relatively small kingdoms from does not make a lot of sense.
I do agree however, that Rand being regarded with suspicion because of his looks loses plausibility in this context.

My only issue with the casting is that Moiraine is supposed to be tiny and Rosamund Pike is definitely not.

[Anteros]

Spoiler

Show

Keep in mind that it is not the same as a medieval village from our world. The Two Rivers are a backwater dump, but built on the ruins of a past poerful kingdom. Before that, a high tech civilisation existed that then got jumbled all over the place. Thinking about it, the distinct looks of relatively small kingdoms from does not make a lot of sense.
I do agree however, that Rand being regarded with suspicion because of his looks loses plausibility in this context.

My only issue with the casting is that Moiraine is supposed to be tiny and Rosamund Pike is definitely not.

People from different places being culturally and visually similar is a huge part of the setting. It's even a plot point at numerous times. If you want to diversify it would make more sense to do it with one of the dozens of characters who aren't supposed to be from a single tiny village.

Ultimately it doesn't really matter that much. If the actors do a good job it will be forgotten.

[snowblizz]

Apparently tiny isolated farming communities in medieval times are somehow very diverse. I'm all for representation but it just makes no sense for people who are all from the same small stock to look so different from each other. I'd honestly rather they just change everyone and keep the setting consistent than this nonsense miss-match.

Especially when you consider a huge part of Rand's story is how he feels isolated because of being different.

This is where I uncomfortably sit and worry about the neighbours I'll be getting in my opinion space.

Wheel of time already is pretty diverse, over the wider world, which eventually the protagonists get into. Maybe that woulda been enough?

The hilarious part ofc is that Moiraine was one option where they could have diversified. Here they instead effectively "whitewash" instead? It's mindboggingly odd to me.

[lord_khaine]

The hilarious part ofc is that Moiraine was one option where they could have diversified. Here they instead effectively "whitewash" instead? It's mindboggingly odd to me.

Yeah, already from the moment you decides to use terms like whitewash, then your more or guess guaranteed to get neighboor conflict.
The term you would want here is "blackwash", but thankfully they didnt decide to go with it.

[Ashen Lilies]

Can see a lot of ...controversy...coming from the casting choices.

I saw the controversy coming. I'm a little discouraged to see so much of the negativity here, though. I think the casting choices were cool.

Apparently tiny isolated farming communities in medieval times are somehow very diverse. I'm all for representation but it just makes no sense for people who are all from the same small stock to look so different from each other. I'd honestly rather they just change everyone and keep the setting consistent than this nonsense miss-match.

Especially when you consider a huge part of Rand's story is how he feels isolated because of being different.

Spoiler

Show

Keep in mind that it is not the same as a medieval village from our world. The Two Rivers are a backwater dump, but built on the ruins of a past poerful kingdom. Before that, a high tech civilisation existed that then got jumbled all over the place. Thinking about it, the distinct looks of relatively small kingdoms from does not make a lot of sense.
I do agree however, that Rand being regarded with suspicion because of his looks loses plausibility in this context.

My only issue with the casting is that Moiraine is supposed to be tiny and Rosamund Pike is definitely not.

I hadn't thought of this take, but I like it a lot. Manetheren was explicitly large enough to cover parts of the territory of a couple of modern Randland kingdoms (Ghealdan, Andor among them), and was one of the most powerful kingdoms of its time. So, a tiny backwater village with people descended from the inhabitants of a metropolitan capital of a major power. The show can even lean into this take, if we keep the scene where Moiraine reminds the people of Emond's Field how cool they used to be. The Westlands have always been somewhat interconnected, if you consider how they all speak the same language, and even more recently than Manetheren, were all conquered by a single ruler, with safe freedom of movement from one end of the continent to the other even being mentioned (by Elyas) as a perk of his Empire.

Also, bear in mind that we already know that the main character of the first season is going to be Moiraine, not Rand. Rand being distinct works better narratively when we already know that he's the main character. If you're writing a script where the identity of main character is possibly to be more ambiguous, it helps if the Dragon Reborn doesn't stick out like a sore thumb. If they give him red hair, and no one else in the Two Rivers red hair, he'll already be distinct enough for when people from outside the Two Rivers look at him and go "huh, he has red hair, he looks like an Aiel!" and when Aiel start showing up, and people start pointing at the white, red-haired folks and go "wow, those people look like Rand!" and everything will be fine. Red hair is already an uncommon enough phenotype in our world outside of northern Europe for it to work.

clearly the correct answer would have been to make Mat brown as well, that way Rand could have been the only light dude and everything would have been fine.

Wheel of time already is pretty diverse, over the wider world, which eventually the protagonists get into. Maybe that woulda been enough?

"Let's make ALL of the main EIGHT starting cast (and 5/6 of the eventual main cast) white, but we'll start making people look more like our audience when some minor characters from faraway lands start showing up!"

I'll answer this one for you. The answer is "No."

[Ninja_Prawn]

Personally, I couldn't care less about what actors look like. They're there to act, not decorate the set!

All this 'controvesy' talk really gets on my nerves. It was the same when the BBC cast Angel Coulby to play Guinevere in Merlin, and she did a great job.

Bah. I'd better shut up before I get myself into trouble.

[Saph]

I saw the controversy coming. I'm a little discouraged to see so much of the negativity here, though. I think the casting choices were cool.

It's a specific plot point in Wheel of Time that the Two Rivers folk have a distinctive look – they're an isolated community with a relatively small genetic pool – and that Rand is noticeably different-looking. If you look at a collection shot of the 5 Two Rivers cast members, they look nothing alike. It's pretty jarring.

Now, this doesn't mean the adaption's going to be bad, and if the actors are good enough, they can absolutely make up for it. But if you're going to unceremoniously ditch a part of the setting (namely, that people from the different WoT countries have distinctive visual looks) then it shouldn't really be a surprise when fans react negatively.

[Ashen Lilies]

Buckle in folks, because this is about to be a PERSONAL ANECDOTE.

I've always liked a certain archetype of fantasy character. Morrigan from Dragon Age. Liliana Vess. Lulu from Final Fantasy. A character that I've wanted to cosplay for years now is Yennefer of Vengerberg, from the Witcher. The one problem with that is, well, that I don't look that much like a Yennefer. I've got a lot going for me in common. I'm tall. I'm slim. I have straight, dark hair. I'm also a brown lady of south asian descent, and Yen is *pale*. All of the characters I named are pale. If you're designing a powerful sorceress with less than spotless morals and an imperious attitude, then by far the overwhelming default on how that character is going to appear is going to be a pale lady. (Notable recent exception: Vivienne from Dragon Age: Inquisition, who is amazing.) So yes, I could dress like Yennefer, but I wouldn't really look much like her.

So imagine my surprise and delight when I saw the casting announcement for The Witcher Netflix series, and saw that for Yennefer of Vengerberg they had cast a brown lady, of south asian descent. It was... immensely validating. Maybe too validating. I'm an adult person with a degree and a job and a rent and medical bills. There's people who are going to call me sad and pathetic over wrapping so much of a small part of myself around looking so much like a specific character from a fantasy book. There's people who are going to tell me that the trailer was awful, and that the show is going to be garbage (and it seems probable that they'll be correct). But I got an adaptation of a thing where the character that want to be like looks like me, and I'm keeping that with me.

So if we're asking the question of 'should fantasy strive to look more like the people reading/playing/watching it, especially people who might not have been able to see themselves in a character that they like before?'

The answer is a solid 'yes!' from me, dawg.

Edit for Saph: The setting of the books is a product of the time it was written, and the person it was written by. I think the recent adaptation of Good Omens is a really good example to look at for changes that were made to be 'progressive' because Neil Gaiman, who cowrote the damn book, has been pretty open about saying that choices he made then about certain things, certain characters or jokes that are part of the original text, are choices he would not make now, decades later. The adaptation is a product of the people adapting it, including whatever viewpoint or outlook they bring with them.

Spoiler

Show

Also, the setting conceit that the people of the Two Rivers are superior stubborn fighters against evil because "the old blood sings" and they're just so pure because the line has been isolated for generations is, while a very common fantasy trope, a bit... fraught, for reasons that I hope I don't have to explicate. The idea that 'the blood will out', so to speak, is definitely a large part of the Wheel of Time mythos as it was written, I think it's one I would ultimately be very sad to see go, in lieu of a less uncomfortable making reason why the descendents of Manatheren are just so cool, yo. Not all the choices of the original text are choices that have to be made now. There are other things to preserve.

[snowblizz]

clearly the correct answer would have been to make Mat brown as well, that way Rand could have been the only light dude and everything would have been fine.

Yup, that'd work. Well until you decide it's too close to slaveholding American South at any rate. At which point you'll be upset too.

Also, for the record, Rand's out-of-placeness was blamed on his mom being a foreigner. No one in the Two-Rivers would have known otherwise. Even Moiraine couldn't tell for sure the claim was bogus.

Make Rand black, and make the Aiel black. That also works. And Aiel are cool super people so we should be okay on the sensitive front?

It's the "mixed bag from a place so inbred the cats have 6 toes" that comes off wrong. It's sorta a big point at the beginning. Heck they could probably make it a decent piece on discovering how other people may look different but still are super good people if they really wanted. But that's not what matters is it? It's ticking off boxes on an imaginary "we're so nice people" scorecard.

"Let's make ALL of the main EIGHT starting cast (and 5/6 of the eventual main cast) white, but we'll make a nod to diversity when some minor characters from faraway lands start showing up!"

I'll answer this one for you. The answer is "No."

You mean "no we decided to not do a Wheel of Time adaptation, but rather this off-brand version that we think conforms more to our currently marketable conditions". Blame the source material if you like. It's bit like Starship Troopers (the movie). They made a totally unrelated film that turned out to have so much in common it was easier to buy the rights and rebrand it as an adaptation than fight in court it wasn't. The branding may say WoT but the content was change so much it might as well not be.

I don't really want to be sharing space with the people I know will be loudly declaiming this but you do realise you're not exactly helping? You won't know, or care, but I'm not the enemy here. On Saturday when I talk to a friend of mine and mention the castings I'm going to have to listen to hours of "see! see! I told you so! PC police! PC police everywhere!".

If Moirane already is the main character as you say, then why aren't they going for an appropriately diverse Moiraine? I never really paid that much attention to the descriptions but she "should" be Asian shouldn't she? Lan would be another example you could make different without messing with the, de facto, original villagers are all quite similar people. Who knows what Malkieri looks like? He's is a cool guy. Any ethnicity should be proud to be represented by him right?

Also you may consider the other characters minor, but that's on *you*, not me. For large parts of the book they are the best things in it.

[Ashen Lilies]

Look at any counting of the chapters, dude. The Wheel of Time has always had a good ensemble cast, indeed, it got pretty notorious for it, but the majority of the story has always been spent following our main six: the power trio and the supergirls. The next most viewpointed character doesn't even come close to sharing the same amount of page time as Rand, Egwene, Perrin, Mat, Elayne, and Nynaeve. The adaptation might change some things but minor characters are still minor.

As to the rest: I already shared my personal anecdote, so I'm not going to bother responding to any more assertions about the imaginary good boy diversity points scorecard or "who any ethnicity should be proud to be represented by". What utter nonsense.

[Saph]

The setting of the books is a product of the time it was written, and the person it was written by.

Maybe other people don't consider the setting and the author of the Wheel of Time to be problems that need to be fixed?

[Ashen Lilies]

I would have thought for sure that a lot of people, given the chance to rewrite the books, would have at least cut down on the number of gratuitous spankings.

[lord_khaine]

Maybe other people don't consider the setting and the author of the Wheel of Time to be problems that need to be fixed?

I certainly dont.
And im honestly quite annoyed by the idea that there is anything to fix here.
Well besides the impossibly large number of side plots, that does need a little pruning.

[snowblizz]

I certainly dont.
And im honestly quite annoyed by the idea that there is anything to fix here.
Well besides the impossibly large number of side plots, that does need a little pruning.

I'm even fine with the braid-tugging and exacting descriptions of dresses.

[Saph]

I would have thought for sure that a lot of people, given the chance to rewrite the books, would have at least cut down on the number of gratuitous spankings.

See, I actually wouldn't do that, which probably puts me in the minority. A lot of people absolutely would – when they're adapting or rewriting or retelling something, they'll leave out bits that they find uncomfortable, or embarrassing, or out of sync with currently fashionable opinion. But for me, those bits are exactly the ones I find most interesting. I don't want to read Generic Hollywood Story #394849, I want to read what an author does differently.

Half the point of stories, for me, is to get a window onto a different way of looking at things. It's easy to mock Robert Jordan's treatment of sex and gender relations, for instance (and I've done it too), but I also find it fascinating to read, especially the way that it reveals the culture he lived in.

[Ashen Lilies]

We already have that, though. It's the original text. Which I love to bits, and have reread and enjoyed several times, and will again, aspects I find uncomfortable and all.

This is an adaptation though, and all adaptations make choices about what to adapt and how. The composition of the cast is one choice. That's not saying that it's a problem that needs to be fixed. The Good Omens adaptation makes the character of Shadwell less racist because they thought it'd be less funny to today's audience than it was when it was written. That doesn't mean his presence in the original text is a problem, and I don't encourage rewriting the original text (though if Mr. Gaiman did write it today, as he's said, he would make different choices) it's just making a different choice, for a different audience.

I like the choice, and given my reasons why. Given that, I was just saddened to see how much I seemed to be in the minority (hah...) is all.

[Anteros]

I like my settings to make sense and be internally consistent.

And yes, I also like characters in adaptations to look similar to the character they're adapting. I don't think that makes me a bad person. If you casted Lando Calrissian as a white guy no one would be saying "Oh it's fine as long as the actor is good enough". Characters in adaptations are supposed to be like the character they're representing. That's the whole point. It's obviously less of a big deal with books than movies and comics though.

I understand that some people are underrepresented in media. Yes that sucks and should be fixed. When it doesn't undermine the story or character to do so. A huge portion of Rand's arc makes no sense though with these castings. Morraine or Lan or Thom would have been a perfect opportunity for this because they don't have entire character arcs tied to fitting in with others from their small village. Even Rand himself would have been a good choice if you want to change someone's looks because it keeps his story consistent.

[Murk]

I'm not surprised by controversy either, but I think the casting is fine.

I agree that all the Randland countries should have a visually distinctive touch, but skin colour is not the only way to be visually distinctive. I'd say it isn't even the easiest way to be visually distinctive. Wheel of Time is filled with weird mustacheless beards, silly hats, strange tattoos, braids or pony tails, colourfull or dull dresses and many other visual cultural marks that can be pasted onto any actor independent of skin colour.
If all Two River folk have braids and embroidered shirts (while no other people does), they will be absolutely visually distinct, an obvious separate ethnicity, and it's easy to make Rand a clear outsider.

[Seerow]

While the photos used the announcement are bad, on Reddit I've seen other photos of the actors and in different light they do all look more similar. It seems like the Two Rivers look is vaguely Mediterranean, dark hair and eyes and darker but not black skin. All 4 of the two Rivers folk for this profile. Even Mat is a fair bit darker than his photo makes him look.

Rand actually does stand out as a white dude among the cast, while being close enough that having a foreign mother could explain it.

Edit: here is the side by side I saw earlier just went back to find it https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/cqfazz/the_native_emonds_field_folk_are_pretty/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

[Gnoman]

In any case, Nyneave has plenty of braids to tug, and that's the most important thing.

[Ashen Lilies]

See, my one concern was "is Mat going to be hot enough?"

The answer is yes.

Also I googled him, and yes, thank you for pointing out that his headshot there does make him look much paler than he is.

[Velaryon]

It was just an aside comment, but Ashen Lilies referenced how WoT was rather infamous for its large ensemble cast. Is it too early to begin speculating which characters will be omitted, combined, etc. in order to cut down on the size of the cast?

[Ninja_Prawn]

Oh man, what if all the Great Captains are all combined into Lan... he'd be unstoppable!

[Misery Esquire]

While the photos used the announcement are bad, on Reddit I've seen other photos of the actors and in different light they do all look more similar. It seems like the Two Rivers look is vaguely Mediterranean, dark hair and eyes and darker but not black skin. All 4 of the two Rivers folk for this profile. Even Mat is a fair bit darker than his photo makes him look.

Edit: here is the side by side I saw earlier just went back to find it https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comment...m_source=share

See, that set of photos makes it look better than the IGN ones. Silly IGN.

It was just an aside comment, but Ashen Lilies referenced how WoT was rather infamous for its large ensemble cast. Is it too early to begin speculating which characters will be omitted, combined, etc. in order to cut down on the size of the cast?

No. We're going to make it even larger. Mwahaha ahaha ha hahaha aha!

[Traab]

See, that set of photos makes it look better than the IGN ones. Silly IGN.



No. We're going to make it even larger. Mwahaha ahaha ha hahaha aha!

So we are going to have one actor playing rand, and chris hemsworth as alThor?

[Ashen Lilies]

Every line ever spoken by one of the minor Aes Sedai goes to a new one each time.

[The New Bruceski]

Power Trio + Egwene and Nynaeve cast.

https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/08...?sf107255119=1

Holy crap I'm in love with the actress they picked for Egwene. She's gorgeous. Mat's actor looks like a perfect fit. All the rest seem like good fits. Perrin's way more handsome than I expected. Rand's actor has kind of an unfortunate haircut + angle in the photo they used because he looks like a square block but I found better pictures of him on Google.

Perrin and Mat look great to me, spot on. Rand looks like generic whitebread, in other words perfect for the role.