In PF, how would you optimize for soloing Rappan Athuk?

[Quertus]

So, is there a verdict on the evil, strip-mining (stealthy? Earth-gliding?) Trompe L'oeil?

[Sleven]

if the CR is even vaguely appropriate then, at the very least, Orcus should be well out of reach for any quasi-reasonable (e.g. no-infinite-cheese) non-epic PC.

This is, of course, nonsense. The challenge of any given encounter will always depend on player and character circumstances. No two challenges are the same for any given player or character. Within that variance, there isn't a printed challenge short of divine ranks that's out of reach for a level 20 stock wizard. Infinite anything need not apply. It's all about approaching the challenge with the right mindset and viewing your resources through a creative lens. The system rewards creative thinking skills quite well, which is one of the best features it has. Heck, even a commoner with appropriate WBL and the right purchasing decisions can tackle anything in print.

Other parameters to consider.
- do you start at the mausoleum or is the starting point going to require wilderness travel?
- does the gm guidance on leniency for low level characters apply, and if so what’s the cutoff point for this protection to cease?
-closest town for selling and buying items at, along with what you can get there.

- I haven't looked at the module, so I leave that up to the DM. I assume different starting points require different starting ECLs and trust that will be respected.
- I would leave that to the GM after we negotiate what is and isn't considered sporting for me to use in any given build.
- If the module doesn't include a town nearby the dungeon, it might be something to consider. At a certain point this won't matter since any character I intend to bring will be capable of traveling to planar metropolises. Since I've requested a rules-as-written table, this means I'll have my choice of items within the given community gp limits.

Leveling on the spot is fine. I don't think you could succeed otherwise.

If instant level ups weren't allowed it would just mean making a LOT of trips back and forth and would probably work to my advantage for downtime resources. So there are pros and cons for both sides.

you don't instantly gain prepared spell slots

I agree to slots not being usable until an appropriate rest has been made or an alternative resource is used to gain their use.

starting level needs to be chosen

I saw a few different starting level recommendations scattered throughout the thread, but I don't know how appropriate they are to the 3.5e module. The lowest suggested starting level was 1st, but I'm seeing mention of party level 3rd, which someone calculated out to be a level 7 soloist. Meanwhile, the OP has stated 6th. So I would say anything in that level range should be acceptable. Thoughts?

should we stick with full XP or some fraction of it? I think if you do start killing stuff, full XP may push you into high enough levels that no challenge remains. I suppose only time will tell. Getting started might be the hardest part.

Full XP is one of the perks of a solo run, so I would prefer it. It will likely make some challenges easier, but after a while certain other challenges may also stop granting me XP (or as much of it), so there should still be a balance point. The random encounters at twice (or more) of the party's ECL that everyone keeps mentioning are more than likely to be what upsets any semblance of an experience curve. But if that's the kind of variance the designers intended, they should have to feel the consequences of making that decision.

In my opinion, the difficultly of the start will rest solely on what low-level tricks are deemed inappropriate or unsporting for the purpose of this challenge.

In 3.5 i would be much more reasonable to see someone solo.

While I'm no Pathfinder player, I have it on good authority from those that are capable Pathfinder and 3.5 optimizers that a large number of the changes between the two systems made things easier for players, didn't fix a significant number of powerful options, and that for each powerful option they "fixed" they created another one of their own that can be exploited. For example, apparently there's a spell that can make you immune to Antimagic Field and Disjunction. Yet Initiate of Mystra is considered a glaring problem? Tsk tsk. If I had any level of system mastery with Pathfinder I would make the attempt, but alas I don't, nor do I have the time to learn it.

[Firest Kathon]

For example, apparently there's a spell that can make you immune to Antimagic Field and Disjunction. Yet Initiate of Mystra is considered a glaring problem? Tsk tsk.

That seems to be the spell Spellbane.

[tiercel]

This is, of course, nonsense.... Within that variance, there isn't a printed challenge short of divine ranks that's out of reach for a level 20 stock wizard.

Except that Orcus is also a level 20 wizard, as well as having cleric 15 casting, and a stack of spell-like abilities, and a formidable pile of outsider HD and stats even if all his temples have been destroyed, and an artifact, and an entourage of demons and undead, after the PCs have had to run a gauntlet to get to him on his home turf.

If Orcus loses to a stock wizard 20 it's likely because the DM is not exercising anything like the the same creativity, thought, or system mastery that the player is -- if anything, Orcus should know *rather more* about the PCs from their progress through his dungeon than they are likely to know about him -- and the DM is essentially throwing the fight, either deliberately or by playing Orcus carelessly enough that he can fall victim to rocket tag with a few bad die rolls (much the way a stock wizard 20 "could" lose to a stock wizard 9, because initiative, baleful polymorph, or some such -- but really shouldn't).

[Quertus]

or by playing Orcus carelessly enough that he can fall victim to rocket tag with a few bad die rolls (much the way a stock wizard 20 "could" lose to a stock wizard 9, because initiative, baleful polymorph, or some such -- but really shouldn't).

Quertus, my signature academia mage for whom this account is named, once lost a Wizard's duel to an opponent who used exclusively cantrips. A sufficiently non-omniscient, non-paranoid Wizard 20 absolutely should be able to lose to a particularly bad matchup - including to a stock wizard 9, because initiative, baleful polymorph, and a few bad die rolls.

[Kaiwen]

Except that Orcus is also a level 20 wizard, as well as having cleric 15 casting, and a stack of spell-like abilities, and a formidable pile of outsider HD and stats even if all his temples have been destroyed, and an artifact, and an entourage of demons and undead, after the PCs have had to run a gauntlet to get to him on his home turf.

If Orcus loses to a stock wizard 20 it's likely because the DM is not exercising anything like the the same creativity, thought, or system mastery that the player is -- if anything, Orcus should know *rather more* about the PCs from their progress through his dungeon than they are likely to know about him -- and the DM is essentially throwing the fight, either deliberately or by playing Orcus carelessly enough that he can fall victim to rocket tag with a few bad die rolls (much the way a stock wizard 20 "could" lose to a stock wizard 9, because initiative, baleful polymorph, or some such -- but really shouldn't).

Optimal Wiz20 vs Optimal Orcus comes down to an endless series of divinations, so I think we can probably ignore that.

[upho]

If you can do that with a Paizo-published class builder, sure. The race builder may be broken, but it is official 1st party content for the system specified in the title.

Indeed. Though it's worth noting that the race builder is primarily intended as a DM tool, not as a an option to be used RAW by the players (my emphasis):

"The following rules allow GMs, or even players with GM oversight, to create new races..."

Whoever wants to run the challenge as the DM should lay out some ground rules on what is and isn't acceptable. I agree, however, that 3rd party rules should not be taken as the module maker can/should not be expected to balance around their abilities.

This. But note that RA itself is 3PP material for PF, published by Frog God Games, and includes quite a few PC options as well.

And speaking of, while DSP's psionics, PoW and AM material is in general well balanced to T3, some of the most high-op builds can at least in higher levels probably be more successful than any Paizo-only build when it comes to soloing RA, mostly due to being far less sensitive to attrition and having the combat numbers needed to easily solo opponents of a much higher CR than their level.

Actually, looking at the final chapter and encounter, it appears quite a few high-op DSP builds would very likely utterly curb-stomp even the CR 35 Orcus and his entire entourage. This is primarily because such a build's key combat abilities are highly unlikely to be exhausted prior to the fight, its saves well beyond the reach of even Orcus' offensive DCs, its melee prowess far greater than that of the opposition, and its ridiculously powerful active defenses and vastly superior action economy making it extremely dangerous for even Orcus to attack.

So, is there a verdict on the evil, strip-mining (stealthy? Earth-gliding?) Trompe L'oeil?

Everyone seem to forget that the trompe l'oeil is created from a mwk painting portraying the real specific creature which the template is be added to, effectively making a construct copy of that specific creature. This means that without a very generous and likely ignorant GM, you can't simply cook up whatever fantastically perfect monstrosity you like from GM rules and guidelines and then say your PC makes a painting portraying that imaginary creature. RAW, you can only make a trompe l'oeil based on the actually existing creatures your PC has been able to portray, or any mwk paintings portraying (previously) existing creatures your PC has found.

While I'm no Pathfinder player, I have it on good authority from those that are capable Pathfinder and 3.5 optimizers that a large number of the changes between the two systems made things easier for players, didn't fix a significant number of powerful options, and that for each powerful option they "fixed" they created another one of their own that can be exploited.

Then those you've heard from aren't talking about char-op on a level comparable to the highest possible in 3.5, but rather about the op-floor or the much less powerful kind of high-op typically allowed in real 3.5 games.

There are no options in PF which allow for anything even remotely close to Pun-Pun, and a very large majority of the most powerful 3.5 spells and caster tricks were removed or nerfed in PF (including for example extreme spell DC boosts, binding single creature hd limit boosts (max +2 in PF), wish/miracle, candle of invocation, DMM persist (and nightsticks), polymorph, shapechange, wild shape etc). A few caster focuses can however be made more powerful in PF, perhaps most notably minionmancy, and the op-floor is as mentioned higher (for all classes) in PF.

[emeraldstreak]

FYI I quickly looked the module up so not entirely sure it's complete contents.

You probably can't. If you consider SURVIVING the fight with Orcus at the end a "complete solo" then maybe. Even then unless you have some way to be immune to Blashphemy (or it's most powerful effects) Orcus straight up just ends the module. Should probably pack Poison, Instant Death, FoM and an evil alignment to even stand a chance in that last room. Not sure how well it would go clearing the rest of the Dungeon but fighting Orcus without taking out his three temples/shrines first is almost suicide.

When I ran the module Orcus didn't even get to act before dying. The entire RA is a cakewalk for an optimzed party.

[Zancloufer]

When I ran the module Orcus didn't even get to act before dying. The entire RA is a cakewalk for an optimzed party.

I am actually curious how that was done. Not saying it's impossible but it seems odd that they could OHKO the entire encounter even when well optimized.

[Xervous]

I am actually curious how that was done. Not saying it's impossible but it seems odd that they could OHKO the entire encounter even when well optimized.

My guess is raw damage. Rocket tag vs AC is very effective against ill prepared enemies. If Orcus isn’t running some vaguely optimized prebuff he’ll get eaten up by anything that performs like an Ubercharger

[Zancloufer]

My guess is raw damage. Rocket tag vs AC is very effective against ill prepared enemies. If Orcus isn’t running some vaguely optimized prebuff he’ll get eaten up by anything that performs like an Ubercharger

Except the actual map and recommended strategies shut down Uber-Chargering HARD. The mooks and map and positioned in a way that it SHOULD be impossible to reach Orcus before he acts and it's called out that he will have been observing the PCs and have pre-buffed/summoned things if needed.

I doubt a ~800 HP Pre-buffed character with 15 Cleric and 20 Wizard casting can be OHKO'd from range so I was wondering exactly how it went down.

[Hellpyre]

I doubt a ~800 HP Pre-buffed character with 15 Cleric and 20 Wizard casting can be OHKO'd from range so I was wondering exactly how it went down.

There's a fair number of ways to do so at range with similar damage to ubercharging. Or you can go with something like shadowpouncing to skip straight to Orcus. It an optimized party hits a bog-standard, by-the-book Orcus, I could see it happening. A semi-optimized version with the homefield advantage should be able to survive for a bit, but then you get into something beyond RAW, even if it does make for a better experience.

[Quertus]

Everyone seem to forget that the trompe l'oeil is created from a mwk painting portraying the real specific creature which the template is be added to, effectively making a construct copy of that specific creature. This means that without a very generous and likely ignorant GM, you can't simply cook up whatever fantastically perfect monstrosity you like from GM rules and guidelines and then say your PC makes a painting portraying that imaginary creature. RAW, you can only make a trompe l'oeil based on the actually existing creatures your PC has been able to portray, or any mwk paintings portraying (previously) existing creatures your PC has found.

You misunderstand - I can't speak for the others, but I was taking about, not a PC creating a Trompe L'oeil, but a PC being a Trompe L'oeil. Ideally, of something stealthy, with earth glide.

Since level = CR in Pathfinder (right?), and Trompe L'oeil adds +1 to CR, are there any CR 6(-) stealthy earth-gliding creatures for my creator to have used to make my evil strip-mining PC?

And, if so, how would it do in the module?

[tiercel]

A sufficiently non-omniscient, non-paranoid Wizard 20 absolutely should be able to lose to a particularly bad matchup - including to a stock wizard 9, because initiative, baleful polymorph, and a few bad die rolls.

It is, of course, theoretically possible or at not-particularly-high optimization or paranoia levels, but presumably a campaign ending BBEG should be designed sufficiently well as to minimize the chance of a sudden fluke ending, especially given that the structure of the module means it should be essentially impossible to catch Orcus anything like off-guard.

Optimal Wiz20 vs Optimal Orcus comes down to an endless series of divinations, so I think we can probably ignore that.

It should be noted that at least the 3.5 version of RA has Orcus's layer just no-sell divinations, so while Knowledgamancy and general divinations about Orcus might reveal some information, advantage: Orcus.

[emeraldstreak]

I am actually curious how that was done. Not saying it's impossible but it seems odd that they could OHKO the entire encounter even when well optimized.

In fairness I didn't notice "no shrines down" in your previous post, the shrines were down. It was a Dazing Spell and Orcus never got out of the daze before dying to an ubercharge.

[upho]

You misunderstand - I can't speak for the others, but I was taking about, not a PC creating a Trompe L'oeil, but a PC being a Trompe L'oeil. Ideally, of something stealthy, with earth glide.

Since level = CR in Pathfinder (right?),

No, the old "Monsters as PCs" GM rules/guidelines for including PCs of anything other than PC races - which basically treated monster CR as LA with 0 RHD and some integrated buy-off - were superseded more than seven years ago by the "featured races" and GM Race Builder system in Advanced Race Guide. So per RAW, you can't play any creature with the trompe l'oeil template or anything else not made to be a PC race.

A GM may of course make a new PC race based on an existing creature from the bestiaries, allow one of the few published ones with more than 10 race points, or even allow players to create races using the Race Builder, but it's generally assumed that only the "core" and "featured" races plus other published 1PP races with the standard max 10 race points are allowed in a 1PP-only game. AFAIK a very large majority of real PF games limited to 1PP material also seem to have these race limitations or stricter ones.

Likewise you could of course assume a game including whichever weird custom race or house rule you like, but as previously mentioned in this thread doing so means your conclusions won't say much about the possibility for a PC to solo RA in a RAW game including no player options which require special GM permission (which I'm pretty certain is also precisely the kind game the writers of RA assumed).

[Quertus]

No, the old "Monsters as PCs" GM rules/guidelines for including PCs of anything other than PC races - which basically treated monster CR as LA with 0 RHD and some integrated buy-off - were superseded more than seven years ago by the "featured races" and GM Race Builder system in Advanced Race Guide. So per RAW, you can't play any creature with the trompe l'oeil template or anything else not made to be a PC race.

A GM may of course make a new PC race based on an existing creature from the bestiaries, allow one of the few published ones with more than 10 race points, or even allow players to create races using the Race Builder, but it's generally assumed that only the "core" and "featured" races plus other published 1PP races with the standard max 10 race points are allowed in a 1PP-only game. AFAIK a very large majority of real PF games limited to 1PP material also seem to have these race limitations or stricter ones.

Likewise you could of course assume a game including whichever weird custom race or house rule you like, but as previously mentioned in this thread doing so means your conclusions won't say much about the possibility for a PC to solo RA in a RAW game including no player options which require special GM permission (which I'm pretty certain is also precisely the kind game the writers of RA assumed).

Ah. Like I said, I know almost nothing about Pathfinder. So, one of the few things I've heard about the system that I liked, the CR to ECL transparency, they threw away? That's obnoxious.

[upho]

Except the actual map and recommended strategies shut down Uber-Chargering HARD. The mooks and map and positioned in a way that it SHOULD be impossible to reach Orcus before he acts and it's called out that he will have been observing the PCs and have pre-buffed/summoned things if needed.

The problem is that even though no forms of magical flight (including via polymorph effects) or teleportation/extradimensional movement works for the PCs on this final level of the dungeon, it doesn't even have a ceiling and the room where the final fight takes places is huge. So it shouldn't be very difficult for say a high-op 3.5 ubercharger or PF supercharger with non-magic flight and some related mobility enhancement (free overruns on charge, turn while charging etc) to target Orcus and turn him as well as a few of his mooks standing in the way into paste.

Regardless, I think that potential vulnerability to charge stunts is merely a symptom of Orcus more dire problems, even if none of the shrines are down, especially when it comes to his action economy, the DCs of his offensive abilities and his defensive abilities against things other than maybe spells/SLAs/powers etc. For example, his melee reach is a rather pathetic 15', meaning virtually any melee control build worth his salt can and will out-reach him and an optimized PF one can even go all NBA pro on the poor demon through various trip (if he's not flying) and/or reposition combos, using him as a rapidly deflating ball slammed into the ground and his allies while simultaneously punching him to pulp, all without much fear of immediate retaliation and with Orcus likely not even capable of closing during his own turn should he miraculously survive. And speaking of fear, Orcus isn't immune to it (or mind-affecting in general), meaning even something as basic as a straight PF fighter 20 with a demoralizing performance combat combo can very reliably make the demon lord cower and unable to act for several rounds by simply being able to charge one of his allies within 30' of him in the opening round (no pounce needed).

Likewise, Orcus is going to have a hard time getting any of his SoL/S abilities to land (max DC 30, most of them lower), most notably any of his offensive wizard or cleric spells (max DC 28 and a large majority DC 25 or less).

If all the shrines are down, also a caster should have a pretty easy time to affect Orcus directly with spells as his otherwise very high SR 46 is significantly lower, at least provided they're able to avoid/ignore harassment from Orcus' allies.

In other words, it seems to me the designers grossly overestimated Orcus' capabilities in combat, hilariously assuming it to be impossible even for an entire party of six to defeat him without all three shrines destroyed and immensely difficult even if they are, giving him a way too high CR of 35 even though a reasonably rated CR 30 monster like PF's Cthulhu is much more dangerous to PCs and would most likely have Orcus for breakfast without breaking a sweat. As written, I think CR 27 or so for the non-nerfed (all shrines intact) version seems more reasonable.

I doubt a ~800 HP Pre-buffed character with 15 Cleric and 20 Wizard casting can be OHKO'd from range so I was wondering exactly how it went down.

With the shrines down there are as mentioned plenty of ways to beat that encounter, and I honestly can't see how or why it would be particularly difficult for a party of six decently high-op PCs at 20th.

There's a fair number of ways to do so at range with similar damage to ubercharging. Or you can go with something like shadowpouncing to skip straight to Orcus.

Shadowpouncing and similar shenanigans won't work, since:

"The entire level is shielded, and no means of magical transport such as teleport, dimension door, ethereal jaunt, and so forth functions at all, though this does not apply to demons! Magical flight and levitation likewise do not function in any form. The only exception is the druidic wild shape ability, as this ability is attuned to nature and thus functions normally."

It an optimized party hits a bog-standard, by-the-book Orcus, I could see it happening. A semi-optimized version with the homefield advantage should be able to survive for a bit, but then you get into something beyond RAW, even if it does make for a better experience.

Orcus is fully detailed in at least the PF version of the adventure, including his prepared spells, all items and his general preferences regarding tactics when facing the PCs.

In fairness I didn't notice "no shrines down" in your previous post, the shrines were down. It was a Dazing Spell and Orcus never got out of the daze before dying to an ubercharge.

That seems like one perfectly plausible way of many in which an optimized party might quickly deal with Orcus.

[Hellpyre]

I'll just respond to the parts from my post

Shadowpouncing and similar shenanigans won't work, since:

"The entire level is shielded, and no means of magical transport such as teleport, dimension door, ethereal jaunt, and so forth functions at all, though this does not apply to demons! Magical flight and levitation likewise do not function in any form. The only exception is the druidic wild shape ability, as this ability is attuned to nature and thus functions normally."

Yes, but 3.5 at least has some notoriously poor editing, including a number of (Ex) ways to teleport. Whether they would be available in a Pathfinder would be up to a GM, but then the same is true for the shadowpouncing classes.

Orcus is fully detailed in at least the PF version of the adventure, including his prepared spells, all items and his general preferences regarding tactics when facing the PCs.

That was sort of my point - Orcus as listed isn't fantastic, but in an actual play scenario it would not be unreasonable to improve his spell selection, set a few extra spells as traps, manipulate the terrain based on PC tactics as scryed. That's why I said by-the-book versus semi-optimized.

I think RA, in either system, is balanced around 'optimized' characters, but the designers had a poorer understanding of the optimization ceiling than the Playground hivemind (unsurprising, considering that for every poster past 150, each additional 50 gives the Hivemind +1 Int and Cha).

[Kaiwen]

Actually, looking at the final chapter and encounter, it appears quite a few high-op DSP builds would very likely utterly curb-stomp even the CR 35 Orcus and his entire entourage. This is primarily because such a build's key combat abilities are highly unlikely to be exhausted prior to the fight, its saves well beyond the reach of even Orcus' offensive DCs, its melee prowess far greater than that of the opposition, and its ridiculously powerful active defenses and vastly superior action economy making it extremely dangerous for even Orcus to attack.

Out of curiosity, how would you do this? I assume it's something to do with Warlord and Charisma to saves or do you mean the skill check to save maneuvers?

Everyone seem to forget that the trompe l'oeil is created from a mwk painting portraying the real specific creature which the template is be added to, effectively making a construct copy of that specific creature. This means that without a very generous and likely ignorant GM, you can't simply cook up whatever fantastically perfect monstrosity you like from GM rules and guidelines and then say your PC makes a painting portraying that imaginary creature. RAW, you can only make a trompe l'oeil based on the actually existing creatures your PC has been able to portray, or any mwk paintings portraying (previously) existing creatures your PC has found.

I assume that with a high enough Know(Religion) check, you'd be able to know what Orcus looks like, and with enough Craft(Painting) and Spellcraft checks, you'd be able to paint up a few aspects of him identical to the one at the bottom of Rappan Athuk. Even if Orcus has somehow obscured himself from this, there's certainly other gods out there who are opposed to Orcus, and I'm sure they have temples with very expensive pictures of them.

[Endarire]

Art breaks the game? LOL!

[upho]

Ah. Like I said, I know almost nothing about Pathfinder.

I feel I should mention one of the reasons I commented on this is because I quite frequently read posts making claims about PF based on hopelessly outdated info, and it has become a bit of a pet peeve to me as such false claims posing as currently valid facts makes it difficult for especially 3.5 players who read them to partake in a constructive discussion about related matters. And AFAIK you've never made such false claims, but have instead always been very up-front with your potential lack of knowledge and not afraid to ask when it comes to the particulars of PF.

So, one of the few things I've heard about the system that I liked, the CR to ECL transparency, they threw away? That's obnoxious.

The "CR to ECL transparency" wasn't removed and is still a part of the encounter design guidelines. More importantly, the "Monsters as PCs" GM guidelines were exactly that: GM guidelines, meant to reduce the risk of balance issues caused by introducing alternative player options not allowed per the default RAW. So the option to play a monster instead of a PC race has actually never been RAW in PF, and it was explicitly a GM decision whether - and in which specific manner - to allow such options also before those guidelines were replaced. And the community consequently didn't assume the option to be allowed per default in related discussions (unlike all the 1PP PC races existing at the time).

I also very much suspect one of the main reasons why these guidelines were replaced was because they sorta implied the "CR to ECL transparency" to be consistent and reliable enough to remove the need for GMs to carefully consider and understand the specifics of each monster and its effects on balance on a case-by-case basis, which of course is far from the truth. (Ironically, the infamously poorly balanced Race Creation system replacing the old guidelines makes the same mistake, explicitly saying it allows for creating balanced new PC races.)

Yes, but 3.5 at least has some notoriously poor editing, including a number of (Ex) ways to teleport. Whether they would be available in a Pathfinder would be up to a GM, but then the same is true for the shadowpouncing classes.

Ah, yes of course, I didn't consider that. PF doesn't have any explicitly (Ex) poofaports IIRC, and while I think there are a few (Su) ones which lack the appropriate [teleportation] tag (or equivalent) they'd need to function as they were most likely intended to, I believe the wording of the RA limitation I quoted means that lack won't be enough to save them from being shut down in this case.

Btw, at least AFAICT the PF version of RA wasn't written with the assumption that 3.5 material is available.

That was sort of my point - Orcus as listed isn't fantastic, but in an actual play scenario it would not be unreasonable to improve his spell selection, set a few extra spells as traps, manipulate the terrain based on PC tactics as scryed. That's why I said by-the-book versus semi-optimized.

Oh, now I get it. And yeah, you could definitely ramp up the difficulty considerably by improving Orcus' spell selection to ones more appropriate against the specific PC(s). I think especially trading away his many mediocre offensive spells would rarely decrease his power, and he's probably often much better off with buffs to plug holes in his defenses (notably fear and poor melee reach), large scale BFC spells and some action economy enhancers (contingency, contingent action etc).

Likewise, the PF version's feat selection is pretty damn horrible, including a lot of garbage: Alertness A feat for +4 Perception and Sense Motive is awesome, right?, Awesome Blow He must have terribad monster feats he'll never use, 'cause he's a monster!, Blind-Fight Total no-brainer for anyone with darkvision, life sight and constant true seeing., Cleave So what if he'll never use it 'cause it's usually awful in PF?, Combat Casting There's at least a 1% chance or so this will make a difference., Critical Focus He's just perfect for crit-fishing!, Deceitful He reallyis, you know., Great Cleave 'Cause he likes the name!, Great Fortitude His Fort would only be +35 otherwise, obviously way too low., Iron Will And that goes for a Will of only +33 as well., Sickening Critical So he won't just kill on a hit, but also make the corpse sickened on a crit!, Staggering Critical Those darn corpses never stay still otherwise., Stunning Critical People who get stunned the same instant they die become funnier looking corpses, OK?

A GM who knows what they're doing could most likely make Orcus many times as likely to win by changing these feats.

I think RA, in either system, is balanced around 'optimized' characters, but the designers had a poorer understanding of the optimization ceiling than the Playground hivemind

That's painfully obvious. But still, did they really have to force-feed the poor creature with every weak and redundant feat they could find? Even when the explicit goal was to make him virtually invincible?

(unsurprising, considering that for every poster past 150, each additional 50 gives the Hivemind +1 Int and Cha).

OMG! You're right! And since we're obviously also more dangerous than Orcus, it means we're a TOTALLY EPIC MONSTER HIVEMIND!

[upho]

Out of curiosity, how would you do this? I assume it's something to do with Warlord and Charisma to saves or do you mean the skill check to save maneuvers?

Neither warlord (or pally) Cha to saves or maneuvers are needed to achieve 29+ to your saves. And as is usually the case, also in the final fight against Orcus you actually only need to worry about a high Fort and Will, not Ref, and only to (Su), (Sp) and spells, most notably vs fear (Will DC 41 aura) and death (Fort DC 40 on melee hit with Orcus' wand). Here are some example numbers from two initiator builds I've previously posted on GitP, both admittedly intended as defenders, but optimized mainly for melee control and active defense (not for high passive defense numbers specifically):

Nelly Nephilim Monk 1, Warlord 1, Wilder 1, Warder 1, Zealot 6, Awakened Blade 10:
AC 52, touch 22, flat-footed 39; +5 dodge vs traps (14 armor, 8 natural, 8 shield, 2 Dex, 5 deflection, 6 insight, 5 dodge, -4 size, -2 rage)
Fort +34 (8 Con, 3 awakened blade, 2 monk, 2 warder, 2 warlord, 5 zealot, 5 resistance (pauldrons), 1 competence (pale green prism), 6 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye))
Will +35 (5 Wis, 5 awakened blade, 2 monk, 2 warder, 2 wilder, 5 zealot, 5 resistance (pauldrons), 1 competence (pale green prism), 6 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 2 morale (rage))
+5 profane to AC and saves vs attacks and effects caused by shaken, frightened, panicked or cowering enemy (Black Seraph Style)
Combat Reflexes, uncanny dodge & improved uncanny dodge, 55' melee reach, dirty trick CMB +75 (also as AoO), Improved Trip CMB +92

Eddie Pincerhand (progressed to 20th) Monk 4, Warder 10, Barbarian 2, Formless Master 4
AC 50, touch 28, flat-footed 41 (15 armor, 10 natural, 7 shield, 4 Dex, 5 deflection, 5 dodge, -4 size, -2 rage)
Fort +30 (8 Con, 3 barbarian, 4 monk, 7 warder, 2 formless master, 5 resistance (piercings), 1 competence (pale green prism))
Will +29 (7 Wis, 4 monk, 7 warder, 2 formless master, 2 resistance (piercings), 1 competence (pale green prism), 4 insight (crystal mask of mindarmor), 2 rage)
+5 profane to AC and saves vs attacks and effects caused by shaken, frightened, panicked or cowering enemy (Black Seraph Style)
+5 to saves vs mind-affecting (Abomination Shift)
+4 to saves vs fear (rallying armor)
50% chance to avoid SA or crit damage and effects (Sensory Shift)
SR 20, ignores first 12 death effects (Scarab of Protection)
Combat Reflexes & uncanny dodge, 55' melee reach, grab CMB +84 (maintain as AoO), Greater Trip CMB +93

Note that it's unlikely Orcus can activate his aura of fear before he's at the very least shaken if fighting either of the above example builds (meaning they both will likely make the save on a roll of 2+). Both these builds also have access to maneuvers to increase the above numbers considerably, such as Lord of the Pridelands (Golden Lion 9th) for up +10 morale to attack, damage, AC and saves for one round, and both may initiate that maneuver each round and still typically have a lot more actions left than Orcus has per default. IOW, I'd sure put my money on Orcus and his cronies being the only ones peeing their proverbial pants in fear in a fight against either of these two. (For a more detailed example opening round in a high CR encounter, check out Nelly above against the CR 30 demon lord Pazuzu and three CR 25 balor lords here.)

I assume that with a high enough Know(Religion) check, you'd be able to know what Orcus looks like, and with enough Craft(Painting) and Spellcraft checks, you'd be able to paint up a few aspects of him identical to the one at the bottom of Rappan Athuk. Even if Orcus has somehow obscured himself from this, there's certainly other gods out there who are opposed to Orcus, and I'm sure they have temples with very expensive pictures of them.

Sure, but at that point the whole tromp l'oeille idea has become highly dependent on GM fiat rather than hard RAW, and therefore it has most likely also been reduced to not much more than a weapon to use on the final levels rather than a strategy to solo the entire adventure. And at least AFAICT from skimming through the adventure, those final levels are probably going to be the easiest for an optimized PC (or party) regardless of any aid from a construct copy of Orcus.

[tiercel]

A GM who knows what they're doing could most likely make Orcus many times as likely to win by changing these feats.

I'd sure put my money on Orcus and his cronies being the only ones peeing their proverbial pants in fear in a fight against either of these two.

I can’t help but think that in the kind of game where PCs have carefully-constructed six-class defensively-optimized juggernauts, Orcus is allowed to change feat “useless flavor text” into, e.g., Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment(Dream Domain)) or a PF equivalent.

For one thing, in a more optimized universe, a zillion-year-old primal Abyssal threat like Orcus should be more optimized or have been permadead a zillion years ago, but for another thing, if anything like the Dark Chaos Shuffle exists anywhere in the entire universe then presumably Orcus has access to it.

OMG! You're right! And since we're obviously also more dangerous than Orcus, it means we're a TOTALLY EPIC MONSTER HIVEMIND!

Uh-oh, that means that we GitP-ers are the REAL end boss to end all end bosses, which means collectively we should be watching out for a ragtag band of misfits coming to overthrow us and take our stuff, ala The Gamers!

“My Intelligence is FOUR?!? OUTRAGEOUS!”

[exelsisxax]

It is also worth mentioning that neither of those builds would survive RA to get that high in level. The random "perception DC: (stupid high) or one party member dies" will absolutely eliminate them.

[upho]

I can’t help but think that in the kind of game where PCs have carefully-constructed six-class defensively-optimized juggernauts,

Thank you! Now if you will excuse me for a few moments...

*Slowly mouths the words "defensively-optimized juggernauts" a few times, and then leans back with a disgustingly smug and self-satisfactory grin...*

OK, done!

More seriously though, while the two "juggernauts" may seem to have very high passive defenses at first glance, one of the reasons I used them as examples is precisely because those numbers actually aren't particularly exceptional, and certainly well within the reach of also far less complex Paizo-only martial builds.* I think it's also worth noting a very large majority of both those builds' resources are spent on their highly offensive melee control/debuff combos (and defensive applications of those combos), while their passive defenses haven't been given much more than the basics for defender/tank builds. (Although especially Nelly's numbers also happen to benefit from various fortunate side-effects of her offensive combos.)

*For example, a bloodrager based build could pretty easily achieve a base Fort of +38 and Will of +30 while raging, with +7 to saves vs (Su), (Sp) and spells and an additional +4 to Will saves vs fear and enchantment. And those saves are - despite including only staple items and no temporary buffs other than rage - enough for virtual immunity to any of Orcus' offensive abilities with a save, quite possibly from the moment initiative is rolled until combat ends with no action expenditure. And that's on top of a bloodrager having easy access to more than enough DR/- and various other passive/automatic defenses to compensate for a lower AC, not to mention more than enough charge boosts to likely one-shot poor Orcus as written into fine red mist before he even gets to act.

Orcus is allowed to change feat “useless flavor text” into, e.g., Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment(Dream Domain)) or a PF equivalent.

Indeed. And in addition to immunity to fear and some better defensive spells, it sure would be nice to put the PF version's great melee base numbers and his dangerous weapon to better use. Perhaps in the form of the suitably terrifying Cornugon Smash and Soulless Gaze demoralization combo, along with some charge and bull rush shenanigans based on the very fittingly named Demonic Slaughter (in which case he gets to keep his Cleave and Great Cleave feats and could actually get good use out of them).

And really, I think it's only fair Orcus gets a little make-over for no other reason than the fact that he was likely written more than 8 years ago and it really shows, many of his feats and spells being hopelessly outdated, especially in comparison to the slick new s**t the optimized PCs facing him can be expected to be jacked up on.

For one thing, in a more optimized universe, a zillion-year-old primal Abyssal threat like Orcus should be more optimized or have been permadead a zillion years ago, but for another thing, if anything like the Dark Chaos Shuffle exists anywhere in the entire universe then presumably Orcus has access to it.

Word.

Uh-oh, that means that we GitP-ers are the REAL end boss to end all end bosses, which means collectively we should be watching out for a ragtag band of misfits coming to overthrow us and take our stuff, ala The Gamers!

Crap. I knew there was a price to pay for our collective delusions of grandeur. And yet I walked right into it.

Must be them I heard talking outside my window just now. Something about how Orcus was a cake-walk and finally finding the true BBEGs...

“My Intelligence is FOUR?!? OUTRAGEOUS!”

"F**king gamers..."

It is also worth mentioning that neither of those builds would survive RA to get that high in level. The random "perception DC: (stupid high) or one party member dies" will absolutely eliminate them.

This. Even the most high-op 7th level version of Nelly theoretically possible would still have very little chance of surviving to 10th level, much less long enough to fight Orcus.

Again, the highest levels (both dungeon- and character-wise) are the easiest. Being optimized doesn't help nearly as much at 7th when entering the dungeon as it does at 20th, 'cause there's simply not nearly as much to optimize. And I also suspect reliably surviving the first dungeon levels remain close to impossible for a single PC of appropriate level regardless of optimization, as simply taking the wrong turn can sometimes result in certain death. A Master Summoner might possibly stand some slim chance, I guess, as it's basically an entire party of exchangeable and expendable specialists all by itself and can have its most vital stuff online by 7th.

[Quertus]

Wouldn't you optimize surviving the module… by leveling from random encounters, outside the module? Could not, then, many builds survive the module that way?

[Endarire]

Remember, by RAW, hirelings don't cost you EXP and don't gain EXP/levels! Use them to help you "solo" the game!

[Quertus]

Orcus being ancient is why his terrible feats make sense: he picked them before better modem advances existed.

[legomaster00156]

Remember, by RAW, hirelings don't cost you EXP and don't gain EXP/levels! Use them to help you "solo" the game!

At which point you are essentially hiring party members, and the GM will (or should) charge appropriately.