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Thread: MTG Share your Card Designs II
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2020-03-12, 07:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II
So you're saying that the fact they're trying to make something constructive out of their mistakes is a bad thing?
Sure he points that old mechanics were wrong, but not so much recent ones.
And his blog isn't really something most Magic player knows about.
Sure, now, but there is no reason you have to have MTG's mana system. I agree it's too late to change now. But in past it probably wasn't.
You say other games have done fine without it as if Magic isn't the most successful one.
True. However, one truly "valid" point of view here isn't either me or you, so arguing about it is pointless.
Also update your definition - Dog **** isn't food. If you eat something only to vomit it, that's not considered food.
Nope, Elesh Norn is definitely a break. She doesn't bend what white does just a little, she does something that is completely different from what the color normally does.
I know he tries to use the justification that New Phyrexia was bleeding black effects into other colors, but that isn't an argument. A white card doesn't get to do black things just because the plane has a black theme any more than a white/black hybrid card gets to do black things.
Hope you see why I don't want to discuss this with you. What you consider "common sense", isn't what RnD considers "common sense"How is that saying nothing. I worked on assumptions A) explained thouse assumptions, then moved to assumptions B) and explained them.
The question was simple, why did you make a point you later claim is wrong?
I am not wasting my time arguing with you just for you to bring up arguments you don't even believe in yourself, and then just toss them by the wayside and act like nothing had happened after I've spent so long debunking them.
To me it looks like a break, that is justified by Soul Flayer "inheriting" evergreen abilities of whatever it exiled.
I even explained it, Soul Flayer getting nonblack abilities from the graveyard is no different from black getting to reanimate a nonblack creature.
It's not like Soul Flayer is the first card that does this, it's been established by several cards that this is how it works.
You're being picky for no reason. They don't all have helmets.
Another imminent battle subsided in busy snuffling and carefree rooting.
How is it not showing soldiers being cursed?
Don't say the card depicts sailors being cursed when literally nothing about the card points towards this.
Yes. But the effect is similar, modulo having to kill the creature. You don't have to even expend a card to do it. If a creature dies in combat, you take control of it.
Do you not realize the massive difference between killing a creature and getting an effect, and getting an effect when the creature dies?
The effects aren't similar. That's like saying "Destroy target creature" and "Destroy target attacking creature" are similar. If someone claimed white don't get "Destroy target creature" you wouldn't bring up a card with "Destroy target attacking creature". It doesn't do the same at all.
Threads of Disloyalty has a pretty severe limitation, but saw play as a 3 mana mind control. Minion's Return has seen no play.
I can't fathom how you can speak with such confidence when you have such a critical lack of understanding such fundamental parts of the game.
Rise From the Grave can give you an opponent's creature too if it dies, is that a mind control too then?
If it's hard unblockable with a downside, then by extending that same logic black should get 2: CARDNAME is indestructible until end of turn. They already get indestructible with a downside.
Black doesn't get indestructible without a restriction/downside. Black gets indestructible on one shot effects without a restriction/downside.
Black doesn't gets unblockable without a restriction/downside. Black should be able to get unblockable on one shot effects without a restriction/downside.
Sure, but white gets a protection.
Seriously, since 2018 in standard legal sets there have been printed 10 cards with protection, 5 of them not in white.
White gets hard to block as well. Mostly as fliers
and protection creatures,
Protection is a powerful keyword, but it isn't a "hard to block" keyword.
with conditional unblockable.
The way regenerate function is considered reactive.
For it to "work" your creature needs to be destroyed, then the effect is replaced with tap and removing damage and destroy effects.
It can be used proactively as well, so it's not strictly reactive like "regenerate".
Sure, and it might be occasionally useful in constructed, but the effect isn't that impactful.
Like "Target creature is unblockable" it's a small effect that can be good for cheap in the decks that want that effect.
Gain 3 life isn't that impactful either, doesn't mean cards that gained three life wasn't played for gaining 3 life, looking at you Centaur Healer.
Why would a 2 power flyer for two mana also have a very impactful ability strapped onto it.
Target creature can't block, won't be too different than giving one or more things "can't block".
That's the same. Can't block is the same as can't block. What did you mean to say?
You make a ridiculous statement like having never seen these effects in constructed, and then when I give you 10+ examples you just flat out ignore it.
Blue gets to exile and return from exile any type of card, it having access to subtype isn't an issue IMO, even if not a subtype it particularily cares about.
That's why black gets tutors, but creature tutors are green, or green gets regrowth effects, but regrowthing instant and sorceries is red and blue.
Blue cares about the opposite of permanents, so a card that only finds permanents doesn't feel blue. And in the same way white cares about permanents, so a card that might not otherwise be white might suddenly be because of the restriction.
That's a different effect. White can put things from graveyard to the battlefield.
Also, it's usually a one-off effect or one that requires some risk, like attacking.
Attacking isn't about being a risk, it's about being on creatures so it's a meaningful trigger, it wouldn't stop being white if it was an upkeep trigger.
There's also
Landfall
Rebound
Historic Spells
Heroic
Playing from the graveyard is black or green (for lands).
To make things worse, this effect is VERY VERY VERY rare. And isn't something you can use for general "card advantage".
Ok. But then look at white, card don't just take other color's effect and make it "card advantage". If you're going to give it card advantage without looking what others do, why not just give white Ancestral Recall, and call it a day.
Black doesn't get to return artifacts and enchantments.
I guess green could return enchantments, but that is much more a white effect, and green also doesn't care about enchantments, while white does.
My idea wasn't to give it "quantitative card advantage" but "qualitative card advantage".
Card selection doesn't solve the issue. You can give white as much scry as you want, it's still going to run out of cards.
The Council of Sages would be a build-around. Not something you can plop anywhere.
Your ideas also don't work outside of rare rarity, impulse draws are more broadly available.
2. Rare is where the issue is. White is fine in limited.
3. You don't get a lot of repeatable impulsive draw on uncommon either, these effects at less than rare would likewise be one shot effects.
4. Bring back from the Beyond could easily be on one shot effects. Look at this for instance:
Tithe Collection - 2W
Sorcery - U
Exile the top three cards of your library.
At the beginning of your next upkeep, for each permanent card among those cards, you may tap an untapped creature you control. If you do, put that card into your hand.
War preparatios - 2WW
Sorcery -
Look at the top five cards of your library. You may reveal up to one creature, enchantment and artifact card from among them and put those cards into your hand. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in a random order
It's not draw, it's not in another color and it can draw multiple cards, without being too powerful.
The issue was that white didn't have enough general card advantage, so making more build around cards doesn't really help.
Why did you ignore all my suggestions for Consul of Sages?
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2020-03-13, 06:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II
Hahaha. No. I'm saying that's not a mistake, that's a Storm Scale. You're not wrong - you're cognitively different.
Citation needed.
I don't play Pokemon, but I'm referring to DuelMasters-like mechanic, where each card could serve as a colored mana source. And the change needed to be relatively early in MtG history.
TIL you are a fly. In retrospect, it explains many things.
If it's subjective, then only one opinion matters - i.e. the RnD team, whatever you say is bend/break/bleed is just not important.
Citation needed. You might think it's a break, I might think it's a break, but according to RnD, it's not. There is nothing to debate. You're wrong because your definition depends on RnD's interpretation (the Core Mantle articles, Bleeding Cool, etc.) of what a break is. I'm right because I don't use that definition (anything outside of Color pie is a break).
If your definition depends solely on your own interpretation, then there is nothing to discuss, because that's tautological. E.g. I could say Sun Titan is a break, Elesh is a minor bleed, Flying in Blue is a bend, and that would be an end to it. Can you prove I don't think it?
Pretty sure I did. The three rules, the rules that cards had to have that effect in the past to justify it, etc.
Now my assumptions are - outside of pie? Break. And can you justify it?
I'll understand that explanation once you come up with a better framework of what constitutes a bend, break and bleed. One that explains how Elesh Norn is a bend, and how Dovin, Hand of Control is also a bend, how white can get regenerate and blue can attack hands, etc.
Until then, it's a break, justified by flavor.
Citation needed. This is referencing the story of Circe. It works whether there were sailors or warriors.
Other than it referencing the story of Odysseus and his men (sailors, warriors) turned into pigs, nothing points to this NOT being an obvious reference.
How will he know you have it
In black, that can kill a creature in a million ways, not a huge issue.
Either way, black gets Mind Control effect, even if this isn't exactly that.
Ok. I see. It does make logical sense, however, since cards don't align the way I don't see a reason it should.
Only one color has "Can't be blocked" as primary - Blue.
It's a 2, they are saying it will return. And did return in THB.
Yeah, 5 of them not in white. That's a nice way to say each color/artifact gets about 1 white gets 5 (red gets 2).
Which is what I said. White gets most of these effects. I didn't say white gets more effects than all other colors combined.
Literally has the "can't be blocked by X color" in defintion. And white gets to pick protection, so it can, with smart choices, be hard or impossible to block. If a red-green and red-white creature can block, you choose red and have a virtual can't block.
Are you just looking at standard again? Because Pioneer has 4 minimum. Printed few years apart (Kaladesh and Theros Beyond Death for instance).
The way the ability functions. It's a replacement effect. It can only trigger if a creature is destroyed.
Also they didn't want to gimp the color so much by not giving it instant speed effects. Plus in theory, indestructible can be used "proactively". Like for example Unbreakable formation.
Meant can't be blocked.
Sure. But I never saw it useful in FNM. Granted we do play Modern. And I'm not gonna waste time on going over each and every one. Not when I might or might not be right.
Until there is a precedent for a white getting draw, it's pretty pointless to talk about it. I can think of dozens of ways, but the precedent isn't there. Dawn of Hope is a break. Mentor of the Meek is a break, etc.
If you had a really novel idea, that was never printed before e.g. like impulse draw was, I could see the point. But all these effects have been done before, in other colors.
Because giving something infinite casts is problematic. The recursion of cards a la Buyback is problematic. Giving an effect to an enchantment should be +2CMC more.
Only two cards that can do this recurring is 7CMC Angel that if you don't kill, you're ****ed and a card that for 7CMC returns two stuff from your graveyard. Only one of them is infinitely recurring and it depends on you hitting your Plains. The other one happens twice, so it's a two-shot effect.
Rest of your examples limit themselves to creatures. And are creatures, that are much easier to handle.
Because it's a better Yawgmoth's Will. Hard to remove, doesn't exile, sure it has some restictions, but you can use it turn after turn after turn. In constructed the CMC won't matter. Other than preventing recursion.
Mentor of the Meek cares about small weenies, it's still a break according to MaRo. If Mentor of the Meek is a break, this is as well.
If you really want a "white draw" have an effect to draw when you play Equipment or Enchantment. That's white and a draw effect.
The exile makes it feels more red, although the creature dependence is more of green vulnerabiltiy than white. I do get the Convoke vibe, but that can be green as well.
Well, it depends on set, but generally, you can tweak the permanent types, search window and mana color. As it stands 4cmc draws three cards which is pretty good.
Took too much time replying, I don't have infinite time. They looked Ok.Last edited by -D-; 2020-03-13 at 06:56 AM.
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2020-03-13, 09:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II
A high rating on the storm scale means it's a mistake.
Are you mad they didn't go "What the hell were we thinking, we are such massive idiots for making that thing"?
Citation needed.
Also why is the amount of people who know of blogatog even relevant.
I don't play Pokemon, but I'm referring to DuelMasters-like mechanic, where each card could serve as a colored mana source. And the change needed to be relatively early in MtG history.
Also, fun fact, Dual Masters started as a magic the gathering manga, then they changed it to their own card game when faced with legal issues.
TIL you are a fly. In retrospect, it explains many things.
1. I never said it needed to be food for humans, flies eat ****, therefore **** is food under some definitions of the word.
2. I didn't even say it was food, I said "**** tastes bad" isn't an objectively true statement, yet I think as a subjective statement it holds a lot more truth value than the opposite statement.
If it's subjective, then only one opinion matters - i.e. the RnD team, whatever you say is bend/break/bleed is just not important.
Citation needed.
You might think it's a break, I might think it's a break, but according to RnD, it's not.
You want an example of Maro being wrong? This is it.
Also, stop playing devil's advocate. You can't at one moment claim they would never admit to a mistake, and then the next act like their word is gospel. Pick a stance and stick to it.
There is nothing to debate. You're wrong because your definition depends on RnD's interpretation (the Core Mantle articles, Bleeding Cool, etc.) of what a break is. I'm right because I don't use that definition (anything outside of Color pie is a break).
They're literally the concepts RnD use to design cards, how can they just be flat out wrong?
The whole purpose of bends is that they're not outside the color pie, that's why they're bending the pie, but not breaking it.
If your definition depends solely on your own interpretation, then there is nothing to discuss, because that's tautological. E.g. I could say Sun Titan is a break, Elesh is a minor bleed, Flying in Blue is a bend, and that would be an end to it. Can you prove I don't think it?
We don't need solipsism in magic card design.
Sun titan isn't a break, there is precedence for it's ability. There is no precedence for Elesh Norn. Every bit of criticism Maro had for Augury Adept is true for Elesh Norn.
Pretty sure I did. The three rules, the rules that cards had to have that effect in the past to justify it, etc.
Now my assumptions are - outside of pie? Break. And can you justify it?
You don't get to just blatantly disregard the rules and substitute them with your own just because you feel like it.
The entire point of the color pie is that bends are within the color pie and breaks are outside it. If it is justified then it isn't a break, by definition.
I'll understand that explanation once you come up with a better framework of what constitutes a bend, break and bleed.
Is that hard to objective quantify? Hell yeah it is, because game design is hard, and everything isn't as set in stone as you want to to be.
One that explains how Elesh Norn is a bend,
and how Dovin, Hand of Control is also a bend, how white can get regenerate and blue can attack hands, etc.
Until then, it's a break, justified by flavor.
A bend does something the color doesn't normally do, but is still within the color pie.
A break does something the color doesn't normally do, and is outside the color pie.
Citation needed.
This is referencing the story of Circe.
It works whether there were sailors or warriors.
From your initial post it seems like the maritime theme was important to the card's flavor being blue.
You've still just reiterated this worthless point, rather than engage with my argument, which was that if the card wasn't within blue's pie then they could have just made it white.
Other than it referencing the story of Odysseus and his men (sailors, warriors) turned into pigs, nothing points to this NOT being an obvious reference.
The card Titan of Eternal Fire is referencing Prometheus who gave fire to the humans. In Greek mythology he was punished by being chained to rocks, yet the card Chained to the Rocks doesn't depict Titan of Eternal Fire, because it's not the same story, it is taking separate elements from the story and reuses them.
How will he know you have it
It doesn't have flash. You cast it at sorcery speed and then they can choose not to block or not to attack.
In black, that can kill a creature in a million ways, not a huge issue.
Either way, black gets Mind Control effect, even if this isn't exactly that.
You completely ignore my comparison with Threads of Disloyalty.
Ok. I see. It does make logical sense, however, since cards don't align the way I don't see a reason it should.
It's a 2, they are saying it will return. And did return in THB.
This is not the same as printing white cards with protection as an evasive keyword.
Yeah, 5 of them not in white. That's a nice way to say each color/artifact gets about 1 white gets 5 (red gets 2).
Which is what I said. White gets most of these effects. I didn't say white gets more effects than all other colors combined.
And the part where two of the white ones are one-shot effects.
And the part where one of them isn't even color protection but CMC protection, and is also red.
There are two white creatures with protection from a color that have been printed in standard legal sets since 2018, one as part of a cycle.
Giving protection with one shot effects is a white effect, chromatic protection, (choose the color), very likely is still a white effect, but creatures getting protection from one specific color is no longer a common white effect.
Literally has the "can't be blocked by X color" in defintion.
And white gets to pick protection, so it can, with smart choices, be hard or impossible to block.
If a red-green and red-white creature can block, you choose red and have a virtual can't block.
I've played with God's Willing. It mainly blanks removal spells. It doesn't give unblockable very often.
Are you just looking at standard again? Because Pioneer has 4 minimum. Printed few years apart (Kaladesh and Theros Beyond Death for instance).
None of those creatures are unblockable. One of those cards limits its unblockable to one creature type, one limits it to artifact creatures, and one limits it to red creatures. All of those are heavily powered down versions of protection from [same thing].
Amrou Seekers were from Time Spiral block, it also effectively just has intimidate.
So that leaves you with the mechanic "Can't be blocked by creatures with power X or greater", which has only had two copies over 12 years, and which isn't even close to hard unblockable.
The way the ability functions. It's a replacement effect. It can only trigger if a creature is destroyed.
You're making a distinction without a difference.
Also they didn't want to gimp the color so much by not giving it instant speed effects.
Proactive cards are very white, but that doesn't mean it doesn't also get to be reactive.
Plus in theory, indestructible can be used "proactively". Like for example Unbreakable formation.
Also the fact that indestructible can be used proactively isn't really an argument when it usually isn't.
Meant can't be blocked.
Sure. But I never saw it useful in FNM. Granted we do play Modern.
And I'm not gonna waste time on going over each and every one. Not when I might or might not be right.
Until there is a precedent for a white getting draw,
Clues might be the most general.
it's pretty pointless to talk about it.
I can think of dozens of ways, but the precedent isn't there.
Dawn of Hope is a break.
Mentor of the Meek is a break, etc.
If you had a really novel idea, that was never printed before e.g. like impulse draw was, I could see the point. But all these effects have been done before, in other colors.
Because giving something infinite casts is problematic. The recursion of cards a la Buyback is problematic. Giving an effect to an enchantment should be +2CMC more.
Only two cards that can do this recurring is 7CMC Angel that if you don't kill,
a card that for 7CMC returns two stuff from your graveyard.
Only one of them is infinitely recurring and it depends on you hitting your Plains.
The other one happens twice, so it's a two-shot effect.
Rest of your examples limit themselves to creatures. And are creatures, that are much easier to handle.
Because it's a better Yawgmoth's Will.
Hard to remove, doesn't exile, sure it has some restictions, but you can use it turn after turn after turn.
In constructed the CMC won't matter.
Mentor of the Meek cares about small weenies, it's still a break according to MaRo. If Mentor of the Meek is a break, this is as well.
If you really want a "white draw" have an effect to draw when you play Equipment or Enchantment. That's white and a draw effect.
The problem with these is that they're very narrow.
The exile makes it feels more red, although the creature dependence is more of green vulnerabiltiy than white. I do get the Convoke vibe, but that can be green as well.
Stop looking for petty reasons why an effect that is unique card draw can't be in white, the color that needs it.
Well, it depends on set, but generally, you can tweak the permanent types, search window and mana color. As it stands 4cmc draws three cards which is pretty good.
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2020-03-13, 03:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II
No, but saying Elesh Norn is a break that shouldn't be printed would be fine too.
Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary proofs. From my experience at my LGS no one knows who that guy is, let alone he has a blog, let alone he blogs about magic.
Mark saving face for Wizards, is like any day of the week. Do you need proof he would do it
There was a CCG that was essentially Magic, but without Basic Lands. To this day, I prefer it to Magic. Admittedly, it had its faults.
I've presented my proof, why that card is a parallel about Odyssey meeting Circe, and how she transformed his men into pigs. You have some proof it's not?
Do you have a proof it's a break?
Ok, then come up with an easily verifiable and non-subjective definition of what break is.
You seem to be either working on your own idea what is a break/bleed/bend, which is unverifiable, subjective and irrelevant.
-OR-
You are using RnD's definition of which is verifiable, subjective and relevant (since they dictate what is and isn't Magic).
You are right about Sun Titan. However, then explain how Elesh Norn is a bend and is right in line with those "concepts" and Mentor of the Meek is a break according to these concepts. This will be fun.
Here is a HINT:
Choose one:
- Magic
- Consistency
I didn't say all the rules were wrong. I still think if you can't do it in both color it's not a hybrid. However, I just don't concern myself with it being break/bend/bleed. It's all a break, you just have to justify it. Some you can justify by your setting being more artifact focused, or sometimes you justify it by having good flavor.
Sure you do, you just have to make something that will appeal to people.
Ok, got it. -2/-2 on white is ok, and draw for white is a break.
Hmm. Who to believe... Head of magic or you? Hmmm...
I think Elesh Norn is justified break. If white gets in universe pay 2 life instead of mana, they can get -2/-2.
Like Mentor of the Meek?
Ok, so it doesn't matter there are sailor or not?
Ok, so it does matter they are sailors. Sure, maybe sailors isn't the right word? Seafarers. People traveling for long time over the sea.
I don't think white gets transform effect that often.
Ok, why does it matter?
Have you read Minion's Return ? First two lines are "Flash. Enchant creature".
https://scryfall.com/card/thb/104/minions-return
Let me pretend? This seems to you something about settling some sort of a score. Luckily for you, I haven't been paying too much attention to your blunders. But there were quite a few. No Flash on Minion's Return
Yes, it is. Something, something if it wasn't done before, maybe there is a good precedent why not to do it. Honestly, if in an effect hasn't appeared relatively recently (e.g. Pioneer and Modern), maybe there is a reason, why it doesn't appear.
It depends on the matchup. Depending on matchup Menace won't be a good evasive keyword.
That's nice way of moving the goalpost. Number of white Protection cards 2, every other color gets 1 each.
Also white get effect at common (God's Willing), even if protection isn't as numerous as before.
You'd be surprised. But since white also gets protection on instant, you can get double protection.
They don't have to be. You could have 5/5 attacker with protection from white and I could have a green 1/1 mana dork and a white 6/6 creature. I'm not gonna block with my mana dork.
Oh, you mean that. If you look at black creatures you get:
- Can't be blocked by enchantemt creature or enchanted creature
- Can't be blocked by <<color>> creatures
- Can't be blocked by artifacts
- Card that transforms into a blue card
- Can't be blocked by creature with power >4
- Sacrifice a creature: Can't be blocked.
- Can't be blocked by <<creature type>>
No. Indestructible is different. Indestructible is a blanket "Can't be destroyed until X". Regenerate is "Next time this would be destroyed".
If I make creature indestructible and you cast two Defeat cards, you wasted a Defeat.
If I give creature regeneration and you cast two Defeat, I need to give creature another regeneration. I need to REACT to each instance of destroy.
Compare "Player can't cast spells" vs "Counter target spell".
That was set wide mechanic. Like Phyrexian mana. And Infect. And wither.
Are they? Maro was adamant about not giving white draw.
Does it? On Discord, there was a consensus white was doing fine without card draw.
Pretty sure it's the fact that you get draw for white.
According to Discord and Maro[1]. It's a break.
Other colors did, except without the downside. Exile cards from hand/library and play them is either red or blue. Playing from graveyard is black.
Ok. So I can't have 4 Bring Back? I don't think that is how it works. Each has a separate trigger. Having two Muldrothas means you return up to two cards of each type.
But say you are limited to once per turn. It's still a repeatable effect. If you are an avid reader of MTG design, then you must know repeatable effects like Buyback lead to repetitive gameplay.
Dying to removal, means it can be cheaper than an enchantment. Enchantment are harder to remove than creatures.
Irrelevant. It's still a cast N times then exile it. It's not repeatable. Like your Bring Back.
Yeah, white gets that effect, however, this effect isn't - play from your graveyard. Also for it to trigger repeatdely you need to attack (and I can body block it). It's not a guaranteed to trigger on your turn like Bring Back. So Bring Back would need to cost like 7-9 CMC IMO.
Yes, but much less often and at higher CMC, and even then not perfectly consistent. Sun Titan needs to etb/attack, Angel needs lands to enter. So you could make a 7-9 CMC card like that but I wouldn't call it "white draw". And it's not something that can be done easily.
It can stack with it other copies and my problem isn't it's in once a turn, but recurring your cards ad infinite, and consistently.
I can Murder the Titan, but can't Murder Bring Back.
I can Banefire the Titan, but can't Banefire Bring Back.
Two major colors are going to have huge problems dealing with this card.
My problem was that in Constructed CMC restriction is meaningless. A deck will be structured so that the downside is never a downside.
It undermines mechanical weakness of White.
Hmm. So MaRo is wrong only when he thinks opposite of you. That's a great way to create a tautological fortress.
I gave you my honest feedback. It looks like impulsive draw with extra steps.
Lemme see what Discord says.
- It's RW - I definitely see their reasoning. Red for impulse draw, White for tap and caring about permanents.
- Green - Only green gets draws like that.Last edited by -D-; 2020-03-13 at 03:31 PM.
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2020-03-13, 04:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II
A Legendary Elemental Gargoyle - Return of the Awaken mechanic
I would like to hear your opinion about an idea of mine. I discusssed it with a few friends and they thought it was a good idea. However, none of us are sure how to make a balanced Commander out if this idea.
I was thinking of a way to make a Commander with good synergy with the Awaken mechanic, here's what I came out with.
First, Gargoyles are statues brought to life and that can fly even if they are made of stone. But what if one broke from its contract to return to the wilderland? That Gargoyle could bound with a territory and become a natural sanctuary guardian.
"Unbound Gargoyle"
CMC: 2 W/U/G
Type: Legendary Gargoyle Elemental
Power 3 / Toughness 3
Tap for a blue, white or green mana
Flying
As long as Unbound Gargoyle is in play, Land creatures cannot be destroyed and cannot be sacrificed.
Sacrifice a noncreature land: Return Unbound Gargoyle or a card with awaken from your graveyard to your hand
===========
I am not sure how balanced the card is this way but as you can see, the main goal is to make land creature a strategy that would be less dangerous against boardwipe or removal. It doesnt give them hexproof though, they could be still be exiled or be destroyed by cards similar to Toxic Deluge.
I am not sure how balanced this custom card is and would definitly appreciate your imput!
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2020-03-13, 08:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II
He should say that, but the reason he isn't saying that isn't because he's trying to safe Wizard's face, it's because he for some reason actually believes it.
He's not holding punches against Inspiring Commander, and he's giving Mentor of the Meek way more flak than he deserves
I'm curious, do you think Elesh Norn is a break or not? Because you're sending mixed signals.
Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary proofs.
How is my claim that a lot regular LGS attendees know his blog an extraordinary claim, but your claim that most magic players don't know it not?
From my experience at my LGS no one knows who that guy is, let alone he has a blog, let alone he blogs about magic.
Mark saving face for Wizards, is like any day of the week. Do you need proof he would do it
Hanlon's Razor:
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
Also you didn't answer my question, why does the amount of players who know of blogatog even matter?
There was a CCG that was essentially Magic, but without Basic Lands. To this day, I prefer it to Magic. Admittedly, it had its faults.
What was that CCG even?
I've presented my proof, why that card is a parallel about Odyssey meeting Circe, and how she transformed his men into pigs. You have some proof it's not?
2. I already agreed that it was a reference to that, but that doesn't mean it is a parallel to the entire story, it's just a reference to that one part.
3. The part you're replying to isn't even about Curse of Swine, it's about Elesh Norn. Look at the context.
Do you have a proof it's a break?
I literally made my argument for this in the part of my comment you elected to leave out. Stop being dishonest. Engage with my arguments please.
Ok, then come up with an easily verifiable and non-subjective definition of what break is.
Card design is subjective, if you're looking for objective truths find yourself another hobby.
You seem to be either working on your own idea what is a break/bleed/bend, which is unverifiable, subjective and irrelevant.
You are using RnD's definition of which is verifiable, subjective and relevant (since they dictate what is and isn't Magic).
You are right about Sun Titan.However, then explain how Elesh Norn is a bend and is right in line with those "concepts" and Mentor of the Meek is a break according to these concepts.
This will be fun.
Here is a HINT:
Choose one:
- Magic
- Consistency
I didn't say all the rules were wrong. I still think if you can't do it in both color it's not a hybrid.
However, I just don't concern myself with it being break/bend/bleed. It's all a break,
you just have to justify it.
Justified=bend
Unjustified=break
Some you can justify by your setting being more artifact focused,
or sometimes you justify it by having good flavor.
Elesh Norn doesn't fall under this though.
Sure you do, you just have to make something that will appeal to people.
Ok, got it. -2/-2 on white is ok, and draw for white is a break.
Hmm. Who to believe... Head of magic or you? Hmmm...
You said it yourself, Maro makes mistakes.
Stop playing devil's advocate, pick a position and stand by it.
I think Elesh Norn is justified break.
Elesh Norn is completely unjustified.
If white gets in universe pay 2 life instead of mana,
they can get -2/-2.
Like Mentor of the Meek?
Ok, so it doesn't matter there are sailor or not?
The flavor of Curse of Swine isn't specifically blue, it could easily have been white if the card didn't fit mechanically into blue, but it does, because it's a pongify effect.
Ok, so it does matter they are sailors. Sure, maybe sailors isn't the right word? Seafarers. People traveling for long time over the sea.
What part of the picture or flavor text makes you convinced it has to be seafarers can can't just be regular land walking soldiers?
I don't think white gets transform effect that often.
White has Generous Gift, Baffling End and Crib Swap.
Ok, why does it matter?
Have you read Minion's Return ? First two lines are "Flash. Enchant creature".
https://scryfall.com/card/thb/104/minions-return
That does make the card significantly better, but it's still just Grim Return, which is a reanimation spell. You still just get to reanimate a creature, you don't get to mind control.
Let me pretend? This seems to you something about settling some sort of a score. Luckily for you, I haven't been paying too much attention to your blunders. But there were quite a few. No Flash on Minion's Return
Yes, it is.
We look at what there is precedence for, we don't need for the exact same effect to already exist.
Something, something if it wasn't done before, maybe there is a good precedent why not to do it.
Honestly, if in an effect hasn't appeared relatively recently (e.g. Pioneer and Modern), maybe there is a reason, why it doesn't appear.
It depends on the matchup. Depending on matchup Menace won't be a good evasive keyword.
That's nice way of moving the goalpost. Number of white Protection cards 2, every other color gets 1 each.
Two over one isn't enough to make a point, also there are two red protection creature, you maybe forgot Piledriver.
Also white get effect at common (God's Willing), even if protection isn't as numerous as before.
You'd be surprised.
But since white also gets protection on instant, you can get double protection.
They don't have to be. You could have 5/5 attacker with protection from white and I could have a green 1/1 mana dork and a white 6/6 creature. I'm not gonna block with my mana dork.
Oh, you mean that.
If you look at black creatures you get:
- Can't be blocked by enchantemt creature or enchanted creature
- Can't be blocked by <<color>> creatures
- Can't be blocked by artifacts
- Card that transforms into a blue card
- Can't be blocked by creature with power >4
- Sacrifice a creature: Can't be blocked.
- Can't be blocked by <<creature type>>
You also very conveniently ignored the one that has been brought up a million times:
"Can't block and can't be blocked"
No. Indestructible is different. Indestructible is a blanket "Can't be destroyed until X". Regenerate is "Next time this would be destroyed".
If I make creature indestructible and you cast two Defeat cards, you wasted a Defeat.
If I give creature regeneration and you cast two Defeat, I need to give creature another regeneration. I need to REACT to each instance of destroy.
You're still reacting to what the opponent is doing.
Compare "Player can't cast spells" vs "Counter target spell".
2. Judge's Familiar, Lapse of Certainty.
3. Settle the Wreckage, Rebuke and a ton of similar effects.
Where did you get this idea that white isn't allowed to be reactive?
That was set wide mechanic. Like Phyrexian mana. And Infect. And wither.
Are they? Maro was adamant about not giving white draw.
Does it? On Discord, there was a consensus white was doing fine without card draw.
Red was doing fine without impulsive draw outside commander too, doesn't mean that didn't help out loads.
Pretty sure it's the fact that you get draw for white.
According to Discord and Maro[1]. It's a break.
Mentor of the Meek is a brilliant example of white card draw, and the fact that Inspiring Commander got made as an arena only card shows that his opinion is not that of the entire R&D.
Other colors did, except without the downside. Exile cards from hand/library and play them is either red or blue. Playing from graveyard is black.
Ok. So I can't have 4 Bring Back?
I don't think that is how it works. Each has a separate trigger. Having two Muldrothas means you return up to two cards of each type.
But say you are limited to once per turn. It's still a repeatable effect.
If you are an avid reader of MTG design, then you must know repeatable effects like Buyback lead to repetitive gameplay.
Also it's not a mechanic, it's one card.
Muldrotha was a card they made, as was Karador.
Dying to removal, means it can be cheaper than an enchantment. Enchantment are harder to remove than creatures.
Creatures are easier to kill, but they also have relevant bodies, are easier to tutor, are easier to recur, and are easier to cheat into play.
Irrelevant. It's still a cast N times then exile it. It's not repeatable. Like your Bring Back.
Also if that is the only issue, what if it had a clause like this:
"It enters the battlefield with a glass counter on it. If it would leave the battlefield, exile it instead."
Yeah, white gets that effect, however, this effect isn't - play from your graveyard.
Also for it to trigger repeatdely you need to attack (and I can body block it).
It's not a guaranteed to trigger on your turn like Bring Back.
So Bring Back would need to cost like 7-9 CMC IMO.
Sun Titan has a very relevant body.
Sun Titan triggers on ETB.
Sun Titan being way easier to recur makes it much better.
Sun Titan goes infinite with a sac outlet and any of like 10+ cards.
Sun Titan doesn't require you to pay the mana cost, Bring Back does.
Yes, but much less often and at higher CMC, and even then not perfectly consistent.
Sun Titan needs to etb/attack,
So you could make a 7-9 CMC card like that but I wouldn't call it "white draw". And it's not something that can be done easily.
It can stack with it other copies and my problem isn't it's in once a turn, but recurring your cards ad infinite, and consistently.
I can Murder the Titan, but can't Murder Bring Back.
I can Banefire the Titan, but can't Banefire Bring Back.
Two major colors are going to have huge problems dealing with this card.
My problem was that in Constructed CMC restriction is meaningless.
A deck will be structured so that the downside is never a downside.
It undermines mechanical weakness of White.
Maro said white shouldn't get to draw into all its answers, but decks that can draw a lot off Mentor won't have a lot of answers.
Hmm. So MaRo is wrong only when he thinks opposite of you. That's a great way to create a tautological fortress.
You have yourself both accused Maro of being wrong on occasions and have used him as a source.
I gave you my honest feedback. It looks like impulsive draw with extra steps.
Lemme see what Discord says.
- It's RW - I definitely see their reasoning. Red for impulse draw, White for tap and caring about permanents.
- Green - Only green gets draws like that.
I've said it before how you claiming your discord server supports you doesn't matter.
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2020-03-14, 08:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II
@Emmerlaus
Correct formatting for your card would be:
Unbound Gargoyle - 2WUG
Legendary Creature - Gargoyle Elemental
Flying
T: Add W, U or G.
Land creatures cannot be destroyed and cannot be sacrificed.
Sacrifice a noncreature land: Return Unbound Gargoyle or a card with awaken from your graveyard to your hand
3/3
Try to use correct wording, it makes reading the card a lot easier.
You don't need to specify when it is in play, abilities only work when in play unless otherwise noted.
I have a bunch of issues with this.
Why is this not an artifact like every other gargoyle?
Why is this an elemental, gargoyles are made of stone but they're just gargoyles.
Tapping for one mana doesn't seem very relevant on a 5 drop, especially not when it's a 3 power flyer so you will probably just want to hit people with it.
The name doesn't sound legendary.
I think the land creatures ability should be worded "Land creatures have indestructible and players can't sacrifice lands."
The land creatures ability should be one sided.
The last ability is really weird. You can sacrifice a land when this is in the graveyard to return it to your hand, because the ability specifies from your graveyard. But at the same time it can also return awaken cards, and that clause only works when it's on the battlefield.
I think it should have some way of animating lands itself.
It annoys me that your land creatures tribal card specifically mentions Awaken, as it pushes it into a specific style, rather than also encourage manlands and planeswalkers that can animate lands for instance.
This seems like it was meant for commander, so a recursion ability for itself is strange.
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2020-03-14, 09:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II
From your suggestions, here's my second take on my idea:
Unbound Gargoyle - 2WUG
Legendary Artifact Creature - Gargoyle Elemental
Flying
Land creatures you control are indestructible and cannot be sacrificed
Pay one mana, Exile a creature card from a graveyard: Target land you control get a number of +1/+1 counter equal to that creature casting cost. That land become gain the Elemental subtype.
3/3
=============
The name doesnt sound legendary of course because its not that important. The stats are what's important.
Interesting how you pointed out its not a artifact creature. My mistake, its corrected now.
It's a Elemental because Gargoyles are made of stone. They are animated STONE statue. But a Earth Elemental is technically also minerals animated thanks to magic. My goal was to build a bridge between the two types of creatures.
I like the Land creature ability to be global. How he is changing the nature of land Creatures by his presence. But you might be right, corrected.
You were right to decide to switch the awaken focus. Just an Elemental tribal - Graveyard hate Commander is enough to make it interesting.
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2020-03-14, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II
Why is it still an elemental? What is a Gargoyle Elemental even. It makes sense that it's an elemental, it doesn't make a lot of sense that it's a Gargoyle.
Correct wording is have indestructible, are indestructible is an old wording.
It's 1 not Pay one mana.
The exile should either be from only your graveyard, look at Moorland Haunt, or it should target and exile on resolution, look at Deathrite Shaman.
The last ability is worded wrong, look at Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper.
Why does your land creature tribal card care about having creatures in your graveyard?
The last ability also seems very unbalanced, given it's both repeated graveyard removal with heavy upside, and it always only cost 1 mana no matter the cost or power of the creature. It can also be used at instant speed. Compare to Varolz, the Scar-Striped.
The name doesnt sound legendary of course because its not that important. The stats are what's important.
It's a Elemental because Gargoyles are made of stone. They are animated STONE statue. But a Earth Elemental is technically also minerals animated thanks to magic. My goal was to build a bridge between the two types of creatures.
You were right to decide to switch the awaken focus. Just an Elemental tribal - Graveyard hate Commander is enough to make it interesting.
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2020-03-14, 05:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II
Grask, Returned to Nature - 2WUG
Legendary Artifact Creature - Gargoyle Elemental
Flying
Land creatures you control are indestructible and cannot be sacrificed
1, Exile a creature card from a graveyard: Put one +1/+1 counter on a land you control. If it's not a land creature, It become a Elemental creature.
====
The effect will be upon resolution I guess.
Its less OP this way? Only a +1/+1 counter on one target land for each card in the graveyard. Reapeatable at instant speed yes.
Creatures are body, soul, mind. He empty the graveyards of souls and fuse them with the lands. He was smarter then he should have being and a greater connection with what is around him.Last edited by Emmerlaus; 2020-03-14 at 05:49 PM.
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2020-03-14, 08:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II
On surface level, here are the issues - Legendary creatures are named. It can't be Unbound Gargoyle. An Unbound Gargoyle doesn't sound unique enogh. To me it should be "Mugazak, The Unbound Gargoyle". Alternatively, if the story makes him so unique he could be "The Unbound Gargoyle", but to me that sounds meh.
In MTG Gargoyles are Gargoyles. Elementals are something wholly made of the natural materials (one excuse being elemental Giants, but giants could just be size descriptor).
Lava Elemental is essentially sentinent piece of Lava. Gargoyles are artificial so not elementals.
https://scryfall.com/search?q=t%3Aga...order=released
https://scryfall.com/search?q=t%3Ael...order=released
It also shouldn't be "Pay one mana, Exile a...", but "1, Exile a...".
His second abilities luckily does nothing. It's possible that you just want to put counters on target land and for it to have Elemental subtype, but it won't be a creature.
----------------------------------------
Now my critiques of a mechanic.
Ok. 5CMC flyer that gives lands indestructible and can't be sacrificed is fair. You can still exile them, or kill them with -X/-X effects, etc.
His ability on the other hand is plain broken. First it doesn't work, because it doesn't turn Land into a creature, just give target Land a funky type. Second, even if it did work, it would be horribly, horribly broken. It would be turn 6, enjoy your 10/10 indestructible can't be sacrificed land hitting you in the face. Unless you target a land that enter this turn.
If I were to balance it, I'd template it like this:
"Tap, G{W/U}: Put three +1/+1 counters on target noncreature land you control. Untap it. It becomes a 0/0 Elemental creature with vigilance and haste that’s still a land."
This is wording is from Nissa Who Shakes the World.
Why Tap? So you have to keep it alive for a turn. Can't just plot and turn your lands into creatures.
Why this 3 counters? 3/3 creatures you can deal with potentially with thing like Witche's Vengeance.
Why target noncreature land? To prevent stacking a billion counters on a single land.
Why untap? Partially flavor, partially as more mana on your turn.
Why vigilance? So it doesn't tap on attack.
Why haste? So you can use it without worrying on what turn did your land enter.
================================================== ===============
I don't think he believes that. You know how they say. Actions speak louder than words. Since New Phyrexia there was 0 white cards that gave negative toughness.
Flavor wise, it's a justifiable break in NPH. You get to pay life instead mana, so giving creatures -1/-1 isn't that huge of an issue.
But mechanic wise - the amount of P/T difference it gives, is why I dislike it. I know it's legendary, it's still too much.
Because, from my experience with two LGS I frequent, people have no idea who he is.
Also why would people sitting down to play magic and win some prizes in FNM, care about card designs? And more specifically care about what Mark wrote on his blog?
When dealing with anything with 100 or more people it's best to suspend Hanlon's Razor.
I don't see why me liking some game more has to do with not designing Magic cards. I do it as a creative outlet.
CCG rough translation would be "Sources of Magic", but I also like Sirlin's Codex that had a similar premise.
1. Proof and evidence is interchangable in this context. Proof meaning evidence enought to belive something is true.
2. Perhaps, but evidence is stacked in it's favor. The setting is Helenic, there are bunch of Island City States, and is referencing story of Circe, and literally requires an Island to cast it.
If there isn't such a definition why should I take your opinion of bleed over MaRo's?
Say what you want about my definition, it's very easy to determine if something is a break or not:
1) Check if it is Mechanical Color Pie?
2) Check if it was printed recently in last few sets (look at Standard, Pioneer, Modern)?
3) If both are negative, that's a break.
Moving goalpost. Not said there were clearly defined, said they were verifiable. Look at MaRo's blog, look at articles on designing Magic, etc. Use latest sources over older, etc.
I'd rather be lazy than deluded that what I think is right, everyone else be damned.
Doesn't she? She's pretty much a strict White Fashist. Glory to Phyrexia, everyone else be damned.
Phyrexian mana is broken for other reasons. Namely life being the cheapest resource. Also I you're forgetting poor ol' Banding. It's still a worse mechanic than Phyrexian mana.
That said, I don't think phrexian mana is a break. It just enables them.
Look:
Phyrexia is Willing - W{PW}
Instant
Target creature you control gains protection from the color of your choice until end of turn.
Draw a card.
Not a break.
This Is My Dismember 1B{PB}
Instant
Target creature gets -5/-5 until end of turn.
Not a break.
Yeah, but it encroaches on green's turf. Caring about creatures.
Hm. No idea, must have thought it only exiles them or something. In that case you're right. Blue Transform is blue.
Pretty sure I corrected myself eons ago. Me being wrong about it, is much lesser fault than you thinking black doesn't get Mind Control effects. Or Trample.
This is not what's happening, you're taking someone other color's mechanic, limiting it a bit and calling it "white draw". I.e. taking another color's mechanic, and calling it white. All in order to undermine white's chief weakness - card draw. That even in your definition of bleed should be a break. You're not doing it for set reasons, you're not doing it for flavor reasons.
Had you come up with a novel idea, something unseen to this day, something that's still in white's purview - I'd say good job.
Right now. I just see recycled mechanics in other colors.
That's just Standard. Piledriver ain't standard.
Pioneer - W:18, U: 6, B:5, R:5, G:4
Wait a minute:
It's very clearly not a very common ability, it's therefore bad precedence
Protection ON instants e.g. God's willing.
I'm merely noting your logic is faulty for saying black should get unblockable without any downsides, I made a comparisson to same thing being true for white.
They still require you give up card advantage, that's a very steep price. It's same price as having a one shot effect on a instant.
Pretty sure we discussed it ad nauseam. That's a heavy downside as well.
I explained it. Each time you destroy a creature, I have to regenerate it. Indestructible until end of turn, means any subsequent attempt to destroy it (not counting stack shenanigans) fizzle.
It's analogous to Silence compared to Counter spell.
--------------------------------------------------
If I cast Silence once, any subsequent spell will fizzle. I have to cast Counter Spell each time in response to a spell.
If I cast Indestructible once, any subsequent destroy effect will fizzle. I have to cast Regenerate each time in response to a destroy effect.
For sake of example... Defeat is a sorcery speed, in order to bypass stack shenanigans.
2. Those are all counterspell effect. It's up in the air, if white gets counterspell again.
3. Told you already. Removing instants would mechanically cripple white. Also white is allowed to preprare counter measures, just not draw for them.
It should be also noted, of the three colors that investigate, white had the least Investigate.
But, in a set that wants to give white draw, going for token or token creatures that draw cards is not a bad idea.
Citation needed.
I only saw them talking about them discussing Howling Golem effect in white.
No, it's the draw part.
Originally Posted by MaRo
Heavily disagree. Inspiring Commander would turn Modern Lifegain deck I've seen from a nuissance into a nightmare. Wait, so you get life and counters and tokens and draw and ... everything.
Imagine Archpriest of Thune, Soul Sisters, Hearld of War, Oketra's monument and This guy. You play a white creature spell and you get tokens and counters for days.
Also it's brilliant example according to you - I think it's meh, other think it's a break, etc.
It leads to stale and repetitive gameplay.
It devalues point of removal.
It's everything wrong with Buyback somehow made into a permanent.
It's miserable in Limited - Oh you don't have 30 removals. Guess you lose, huh?
It's overpowered in constructed - Oh, you don't have the exact removal needed to remove this creature? Too bad.
I'm saying it's a horrible repeatable effect, on a slightly easier to remove card and you're answer is doubling down on the wrongness?
Not sure if you can compare like that. But Benalish Marshal is close to Anthem (albeit WWW rather than 1WW). That said, I'd still be vary of putting it on an enchantment. Especially in white, that can search enchantment.
Originally Posted by Ninjaman
White that believes in order an hierarchy would see this as something against its philosophy.
Plus, if you equate them, then you are blurring lines between green/black and white.
From a mechanical point, yeah, return is better. It's also super rare. White gets a very limited effect - i.e. creatures, permanents with mana cost <3, creatures with mana cost <2, etc. Journey being the slight exception.
From a philosophy standpoint, this would be something white is against. Blurring the line between life and death = No. Ressurection as a reward to worthy = yes.
From a color standpoint, stop trying to blur the lines between white, green and black.
Another type of counters on creatures. That's a no-no in NWO. Set gets one type of counters per permanents (with some small exceptions).
Not to mention, since this is permanents, you can't have any other type of counters on them as well.
To answer:
- A relevant body that can be killed with deathtouch.
- So does your Bringback - it works the same turn it is used. Like Muldrotha
- Recuring Bring Back is not difficult either.
- That's hyper slow. A 4CMC that can help me recur my threats and protect them from a board wipe.
- Sure, that's why it appears every blue moon
Luckily for White, a lot of answers come in form of nice small bodies.
I called upon Discord as a sanity check. Because talking to you is taking its toll on my sanity.
It's impulse draw with extra steps. You adding extra hoops doesn't make it unique enough.
So, no, I and others concur, these designs you have are not white or at least fully white. You could pass it as WR, but not W.
Inspiring Commander is an experiment. And other than one single format, it's not legal anywhere, so not well tested at all. And it can literally disappear tomorrow, if they deem it problematic.
Bygone Bishop is probably closest to what you can get away as white draw. Highly set specific. Maro thinks Bygone Bishop is Ok. White is allowed to draw if it forces to specialize in a very thematic way or something.Last edited by -D-; 2020-03-14 at 08:44 PM.
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2020-03-15, 07:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II
You said it yourself, planar tint. We haven't returned to new phyrexia. Also just because he thinks that doesn't mean the rest of R&D agree with him.
Without very strong reasons for the opposite, always assume the opinions someone say they hold are there actual opinions, because the opposite is impossible to argue.
Flavor wise, it's a justifiable break in NPH.
Stop trying to distinguish between the two.
You get to pay life instead mana, so giving creatures -1/-1 isn't that huge of an issue.
Phyrexian mana could have been fine, but the way they implemented it definitely wasn't Because of it mono blue decks now get to give -5/-5 for 1 mana.
Yes, completely disregarding the colorpie is a huge issue.
But mechanic wise - the amount of P/T difference it gives, is why I dislike it. I know it's legendary, it's still too much.
Because, from my experience with two LGS I frequent, people have no idea who he is.
Also why would people sitting down to play magic and win some prizes in FNM, care about card designs? And more specifically care about what Mark wrote on his blog?
When dealing with anything with 100 or more people it's best to suspend Hanlon's Razor.
I don't see why me liking some game more has to do with not designing Magic cards. I do it as a creative outlet.
1. Proof and evidence is interchangable in this context. Proof meaning evidence enought to belive something is true.
2. Perhaps, but evidence is stacked in it's favor.
The setting is Helenic, there are bunch of Island City States, and is referencing story of Circe,
Nowhere on Curse of the Swine does it even insinuate any reference to water.
and literally requires an Island to cast it.
If the card had been mechanically white they could have made it white without changing the flavor at all.
If there isn't such a definition why should I take your opinion of bleed over MaRo's?
Say what you want about my definition, it's very easy to determine if something is a break or not:
1) Check if it is Mechanical Color Pie?
2) Check if it was printed recently in last few sets (look at Standard, Pioneer, Modern)?
3) If both are negative, that's a break.
It's very unclear how similar an effect has to be to count as recently printed, do you for instance count Curse of Swine as a Pongify effect?
Depending on how long recently is it would also have labeled the return of mind control effects in black as a break after 7 years of not getting the effect.
How does this definition jive with your "justifiable break" definition which I am also curious to hear.
Moving goalpost.
You're asking me to clearly define them, now I'm asking if you can find a place where R&D clearly defined them, because if you can't then it's neither here nor there to ask me to.
Not said there were clearly defined, said they were verifiable. Look at MaRo's blog, look at articles on designing Magic, etc. Use latest sources over older, etc.
I can verify that Curse of the Swine isn't a break in that Maro has explained blue gets transform effects. Does that count?
I'd rather be lazy than deluded that what I think is right, everyone else be damned.
You're the one saying bleed, bend and break is wrong, instead thinking your break/justifiable break is the correct distinction.
Doesn't she? She's pretty much a strict White Fashist. Glory to Phyrexia, everyone else be damned.
Phyrexian mana is broken for other reasons. Namely life being the cheapest resource.
Also I you're forgetting poor ol' Banding. It's still a worse mechanic than Phyrexian mana.
It was one of the most poorly designed, broken mechanics in magic
That said, I don't think phrexian mana is a break. It just enables them.
These are examples of phyrexian mana cards aren't breaks:
Birthing Pod, Blinding Souleater, Immolating Souleater, Insatiable Souleater, Slash Panther, Spined Thopter, Vault Skirge.
These are examples of phyrexian mana cards that are breaks:
Act of Aggression, Apostle's Blessing, Dismember, Mutagenic Growth, Surgical Extraction, Tezzeret's Gambit.
Phyrexia is Willing - W{PW}
Instant
Target creature you control gains protection from the color of your choice until end of turn.
Draw a card.
This Is My Dismember 1B{PB}
Instant
Target creature gets -5/-5 until end of turn.
The problem with this is it mixes mana in an ugly way.
You wouldn't even need to do this, you could have just only included phyrexian mana on cards that could have been colorless.
Yeah, but it encroaches on green's turf. Caring about creatures.
Hm. No idea, must have thought it only exiles them or something. In that case you're right. Blue Transform is blue.
Pretty sure I corrected myself eons ago.
Me being wrong about it, is much lesser fault than you thinking black doesn't get Mind Control effects.
Or Trample.
The real fault here is you thinking Soul Flayer getting non-black keywords isn't the same as black getting to reanimate non-black creatures, or Odric Giving non-white keywords if you have non-white creatures.
This is not what's happening, you're taking someone other color's mechanic, limiting it a bit and calling it "white draw". I.e. taking another color's mechanic, and calling it white.
limitation of Rebuke is what makes it white instead of black, the "You can't play cards from your hand" clause on Experimental Frenzy is what keeps it from being a blue card.
All in order to undermine white's chief weakness - card draw.
Green and blue used to have more trouble with removing creatures than they do now.
Black gets to remove enchantments now.
The card draw is still very restrictive, which is exactly how white gets to draw cards.
That even in your definition of bleed should be a break.
White should get card draw, every color should get card draw. White has card draw, but not enough. This gets to be slow, keeping it from encroaching on the other color's card draw, while still being restrictive deck building wise like white's existing card draw.
You're not doing it for set reasons, you're not doing it for flavor reasons.
Had you come up with a novel idea, something unseen to this day, something that's still in white's purview - I'd say good job.
Right now. I just see recycled mechanics in other colors.
Impulsive draw existed in Blue:
Aerial Caravan
It also got to cast them without paying the mana cost:
Djinn of Wishes
Mind's Desire
It also got to do it from the opponent's library before red got Robber of the Rich and Stolen Strategy:
Knacksaw Clique
Nightveil Specter
It also had Future Sight effects before red got Experimental Frenzy.
Show me another card that does this.That's just Standard. Piledriver ain't standard.
You're right I shouldn't have mentioned it though, I mentioned it because it is in pioneer and was printed since 2018, so it showed up on my search, however it wasn't printed in a pioneer legal set since 2018.
Pioneer - W:18, U: 6, B:5, R:5, G:4
Compare this to the 100 menace cards that have been printed into pioneer since those sets.
And your example of Sun Titan is? Those abilities happened like several years ago. Last seen outside of Commander set that card was Profound Journey. A two-shot effect.
Protection isn't a precedence for white getting hard to block, one of the several reasons for that is that white don't get much protection anymore. Black gets a lot of hard to block effects, so there is precedence.
Sun Titan is precedence for white getting an effect that doesn't need to show up often.
Protection ON instants e.g. God's willing.
I'm merely noting your logic is faulty for saying black should get unblockable without any downsides, I made a comparisson to same thing being true for white.
White has only had flying.
They still require you give up card advantage, that's a very steep price. It's same price as having a one shot effect on a instant.
Colors don't get to do everything with card advantage, but I can't think of a single effect a color only gets to do with card disadvantage, if you could give examples that would help your case greatly.
Pretty sure we discussed it ad nauseam. That's a heavy downside as well.
Like with indestructible black shouldn't need the downside on instants.
I explained it. Each time you destroy a creature, I have to regenerate it. Indestructible until end of turn, means any subsequent attempt to destroy it
You haven't explained why this distinction matters, you just asserted that it did.
In both cases, giving indestructible in response to removal, regenerating in response to removal, you're reactive.
(not counting stack shenanigans) fizzle.
It's analogous to Silence compared to Counter spell.
If I cast Silence once, any subsequent spell will fizzle.
There's no subsequent spells, you usually cast silence before the opponent does anything. This is not how you use Sheltering Light.
Also we've been over this before, this isn't how silence is used.
If I cast Indestructible once, any subsequent destroy effect will fizzle. I have to cast Regenerate each time in response to a destroy effect.
In order for that comparison to work indestructible effects would have to look like this:
Can't Touch This - W
Sorcery - C
Split Second
Target creature is indestructible until end of turn.
For sake of example... Defeat is a sorcery speed, in order to bypass stack shenanigans.
You don't cast Sheltering Light in your opponent's upkeep to keep him from casting Defeat, you cast it in response to Defeat.
Making your creature indestructible deals with the second removal spell proactive the 5% of the time they have the second removal spell and it's sorcery speed, it deals with the first removal spell reactively 100% of the time.
2. Those are all counterspell effect. It's up in the air, if white gets counterspell again.
3. Told you already. Removing instants would mechanically cripple white. Also white is allowed to preprare counter measures, just not draw for them.
The case isn't that white isn't allowed to be reactive, but it would be too bad if it wasn't, so we make it reactive anyways. And even if that was the case then that wouldn't be an argument for white not getting to react with regenerate, since it gets to react with indestructible.
You still haven't explained where you got this idea that white isn't allowed to be reactive.
It should be also noted, of the three colors that investigate, white had the least Investigate.
But, in a set that wants to give white draw, going for token or token creatures that draw cards is not a bad idea.
I also like the idea of the "draw" effect of Ugin, the Ineffeable in white.
Citation needed.
Commander is their most popular non kitchen table format, the fact that one of the colors still has such a massive disadvantage in this format is a huge issue.
I only saw them talking about them discussing Howling Golem effect in white.
It's typically called Howling Mine effects.
No, it's the draw part.
Maro has said multiple times that white gets to draw card on heavy build around cards. The problem with Dawn of Hope is that it isn't build around, because it provides the card draw to trigger it itself.
Well of Lost Dreams should be fine in white.
Congratulations, you posted a completely irrelevant quote.
White doesn't get to draw if it would draw all its answers, it does get to draw from build around. Life gain is build around.
The quote is also dead wrong. You can't claim white has the worst flexibility when it gets O-Ring effects.
Heavily disagree. Inspiring Commander would turn Modern Lifegain deck I've seen from a nuissance into a nightmare. Wait, so you get life and counters and tokens and draw and ... everything.
Archangel of Thune is so much better in that deck it hurts. And they don't even play that, their curve tops at Ranger of Eos. Archangel of Thune is played in toolbox decks that play it with spikefeeder.
Soul Sisters haven't top8ed a competitive modern event since 2017.
The only modern deck I think would maybe want to run Inspiring Commander is Black/White tokens with Windbrisk Heights.
Imagine Archpriest of Thune,
Soul Sisters,
Hearld of War,
Oketra's monument
and This guy. You play a white creature spell and you get tokens and counters for days.
Cathar's Crusade or Divine Visitation followed up by Spectral Procession isn't close to being good enough for modern, why would this be?
Soul Sisters isn't even that good a deck, and it certainly doesn't play these cards.
Imagine being salty over a bad version of a tier 3 deck.
Also it's brilliant example according to you - I think it's meh, other think it's a break, etc.
For this next part you didn't reply to my question properly. My question wasn't what the problem with playing cards form the graveyard was, my question was why it was relevant that you got to play multiple cards each turn if you had multiple in play, as compared with one a turn if you had one in play.
It leads to stale and repetitive gameplay.
I don't think this was a problem with Muldrotha, so it won't be a problem with this.
It devalues point of removal.
Countermeasures to removal are allowed to exist.
It's everything wrong with Buyback somehow made into a permanent.
This is based on permanents, it only lets you recast it if it dies, and even then only once unless you have multiple copies in play, and at that point you deserve to get powerful plays.
It's miserable in Limited
This is probably a limited bomb, it gives you a lot of value, but there are way better cards in limited printed regularly.
- Oh you don't have 30 removals. Guess you lose, huh?
I would much rather just have a Dream Trawler or Kiora Bests the Sea God in limited than this.
It's overpowered in constructed - Oh, you don't have the exact removal needed to remove this creature? Too bad.
Have you even played constructed?
It's slow against mono red, and every other deck can answer it.
Graveyard hate also gets it.
Planeswalkers routinely generate more value than this.
I think it's a good card, but I really can't see what deck you think it would be overpowered in.
I'm saying it's a horrible repeatable effect, on a slightly easier to remove card and you're answer is doubling down on the wrongness?
Sun Titan has an ETB and doesn't require you to pay anything, and that's not good in modern.
Not sure if you can compare like that.
Dying to removal, means it can be cheaper than an enchantment. Enchantment are harder to remove than creatures.
Your claim that creatures get to be cheaper than enchantments because they die to removal is outright false.
But Benalish Marshal is close to Anthem (albeit WWW rather than 1WW). That said, I'd still be vary of putting it on an enchantment.
Especially in white, that can search enchantment.
Play from graveyard is black/green.
Or Underworld Breach
Or Emry
White doesn't usually cast from the graveyard, but it returns from graveyard to play, and from graveyard to hand, both of which are comparable to playing from the graveyard.
It blurs the line between your hand and your graveyard.
White that believes in order an hierarchy would see this as something against its philosophy.
Plus, if you equate them, then you are blurring lines between green/black and white.
From a mechanical point, yeah, return is better. It's also super rare. White gets a very limited effect - i.e. creatures, permanents with mana cost <3, creatures with mana cost <2, etc.
Journey being the slight exception.
From a philosophy standpoint, this would be something white is against. Blurring the line between life and death = No. Ressurection as a reward to worthy = yes.
From a color standpoint, stop trying to blur the lines between white, green and black.
Another type of counters on creatures. That's a no-no in NWO. Set gets one type of counters per permanents (with some small exceptions).
Not to mention, since this is permanents, you can't have any other type of counters on them as well.
To answer:
- A relevant body that can be killed with deathtouch.
- So does your Bringback - it works the same turn it is used. Like Muldrotha
- Recuring Bring Back is not difficult either.
- That's hyper slow.
A 4CMC that can help me recur my threats and protect them from a board wipe.
- Sure, that's why it appears every blue moon
Luckily for White, a lot of answers come in form of nice small bodies.
By that logic Recruiter of the Guard would also not be allowed.
I called upon Discord as a sanity check. Because talking to you is taking its toll on my sanity.
It's impulse draw with extra steps. You adding extra hoops doesn't make it unique enough.
So, no, I and others concur, these designs you have are not white or at least fully white. You could pass it as WR, but not W.
Inspiring Commander is an experiment. And other than one single format, it's not legal anywhere, so not well tested at all.
Bygone Bishop is probably closest to what you can get away as white draw. Highly set specific. Maro thinks Bygone Bishop is Ok. White is allowed to draw if it forces to specialize in a very thematic way or something.
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2020-03-15, 07:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II
I still haven no idea why this is a gargoyle rather than just an elemental. An artifact creature that cares about creature lands doesn't feel very cohesive.
Magic uses can't instead of cannot.
If you want to exile the card on resolution it needs to be put after the colon.
I still don't know why your land creature tribal card cares about removing creatures from graveyards.
Also the effect is way too weak. Turning a land into a creature makes it more vulnerable, so turning it into a 1/1 isn't worth it.
I think you should give it a different clause to animate.
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2020-03-15, 07:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II
Sure, but they could have added a minus to toughness somewhere if it really was a bend.
I won't. Then I get into pointless squabble what isn't and is a bend.
Stop conflating broken and a break.
Something can be broken, without being a break - Oko, Thief of Crowns.
Something can be a break, without being broken - Mentor of the Meek (for RnD), Elesh Norn (for you).
Disagree. If Elesh Norn was +1/+1 creatures you control and -1/-1 your opponent controls, it would be justifiable IMO.
Then you can't claim most LGS members know about blogatog.
I mean, if you play Modern, you already know what cards are there. It's an Eternal format. Fretting over potential things Mark says on blog is super non-important. Most of the stuff he talks about never sees light of day.
Neither does your Hanlon's Razor. You do know Murphy's Law is not a Bible, but a book of funny "laws"?
Any organization larger than 100 people are going to have a psychopath. Usually in charge. That's not a conspiracy, that's statistics. And some in org is going to have to cover for them.
Oh, no. If only there was some way to play more than one game! If only I didn't have to choose one game to play for the rest of my life. Oh wait, that's not how reality works.
Here is an honest question to you - if you don't care what I think, what MaRo thinks, and what Discord thinks (and by extension everyone else), why are you even posting?
Sure, whatever.
I've listened and nothing you've said has convinced me that "Bends are just breaks we're not willing to admit" is any better than whatever RnD wrote on Core, Mantle, of colors.
We had this discussion before, pretty sure I argued the opposite thing. I suggested white ramp, you were adamant it shouldn't get it. And I've agreed to your points.
Now, we have same discussion except it's something RnD has heavily argued against.
You look for the latest effect, so Pongify < Curse of Swinge < Ichthyomorphosis.
Well, then check the Mechanical Color Pie. It's apparently regularly updated.
Justifiable is the subjective part, but generally, if it is in the theme of the setting, or it has really great flavor, then yeah, go for it.
I told you, like a red flag, sometimes you can keep it.
Look on a case by case basis in Mark's blog, on the articles, etc. I can tell you easily Elesh Norn in R&D is considered a bend, it's a 2 min search.
I am not a Google Search engine. Do your own homework.
No, you just behaved like this.
MaRo agrees with me? I'm right. MaRo disagrees with me? He's wrong.
Others like my mechanic? I'm right. Do others dislike my mechanic? They're wrong.
It also justifies her ability. Her first static ability gives +2/+2 to Elesh Norn's Phyrexia. Her second gives -2/-2 to everyone else.
Ok, but I'm talking mechanics, not implementation. The implementation is the reason it sucked. They should have either:
a) Kept some amount of regular mana
b) Made it is on a colored creature, but it's ability cost Phyrexian mana
Or what you suggested, kept it on artifact/colorless creatures.
Sure. I stand by what I said. You're giving Phyrexian mana too much flak. Is it one of worst mechanics ever designed? No. That's 9 and 10 on storm scale.
Moving goalpost, never maid claims on its balance - although I disagree WW, or W, pay 2 life is significantly different than Shelter.
I said it wasn't a break. If I can design a card with Phyrexian mana without it being a break, it proves Phyrexian mana isn't the issue.
Disagree. It looks pretty nice to me.
Well, to be honest, it kinda does. When white had better creature removal than black (e.g. Path to Exile, Sword to Plowshares), why even have black?
Having powerful, cheap creature removal in white, undermines the power of black. Having limited creature removal otoh is better, but still depends on efficiency. If Rebuke was W, it would definitely encroach on black.
Although I disagree on life loss vs damage. They are different enough that people won't confuse the two.
You wrote that black didn't get Mind control in seven or more years. When it literally got it in Eldraine and M20.
Not just limitation. Pricing as well. If Rebuke is W and exiles a creature? Well **** Fatal Push, gimme more 1CMC Exile-Rebuke.
I don't feel your cards are sufficiently white.
And once color pie moves to include white draw, I'll be glad to be wrong.
But not today.
Neither is this the way to do it, nor is this the intended way R&D allows white draw, nor the effect they are thinking to turn into a white draw.
So Impluse draw existed around the time Black had Vigilance? Not very persuasive. Sure, it proves Color Pie moves, but not that it should move in the way you want it.
All other examples aren't impulse draws (they aren't free) or similar to Robber of the Rich. You can't pay in generic.
Moving goalpost, I said white gets most of these effects. Not that it got them too many recently. Your argument was black had some evasion ergo black should get hard evasion. To me, that's flawed reasoning. I.e. a color can do something at a penalty, ergo it should get to do it without a penalty.
Want to apply the 2018 filter to my argument? Since 2018, black got one hard evasion, by saccing a creature when attacking (Bloodmist Infiltrator). The other was Modern specific Tormented Wandered.
Maybe you need a better example -
Black got Bloodmist Infiltrator, ergo it should get hard unblockable.
White got Angelic Purge, ergo it should get Murder.
To be clear: Protection isn't precedence for getting hard to block, Bloodmist Infiltrator isn't precedence for "unblockable" without a downside and Angelic Purge isn't precedence for getting Murder.
I'm just noting your inconsistent way of arguing things. I.e. Sun Titan is ok, even though he appears in standard set about 8-9 years ago. And Emeria and Profound Journey it happened 5 years ago.
Ok. Find a black card that has "Can't be blocked" without it giving up card advantage or blocking? Or failing that find me in Mechanical Color Pie, where it says "can't be blocked" is black?
This must be a troll, you can't be this stupid. I explained to you already.
Here is an even more simplified and contrived example:
Your opponent has single enchantment cards in play and no cards in hand, all his lands are tapped and his next draw is a land and yours is a 3 mana planeswalker (i.e. irrelevant).
Enchantment card says "At the beginning of each opponents' upkeep destroy all creatures opponent controls, then destroy all creatures opponent controls. If at the end of their turn, an opponent controls no creature they lose the game."
You have no cards in hand, you have 1 land and an artifact creature that says:
1: Regenerate this creature.
T, 1: This creature gains indestructible until the end of turn.
At the start of your turn upkeep the enchantment card opponent controls triggers.
Do you pay for regenerate or pay for indestructible?
Nitpick. They fizzle as in, they don't do anything. Not like hexproof can fizzle a spell.
That's literally why I used sorcery speed and instant speed. So stack wouldn't get involved.
And I said it's up in the air. But as they are with white getting counterspell, in theory, they aren't a break.
In Mechanical Color Pie
White is the proactive color, stopping things from before they happen (as opposed to blue being reactive, stopping things as they happen).White is very proactive. Order is all about creating rules and laws to prevent something bad from happening.
Also in The Great White Way Revisited. White is all about establishing rules to prevent suffering. That's inherently proactive. It doesn't mean white can't react. It means it's not as flexible.
Green has more investigate -AND- more investigate generators:
https://scryfall.com/card/soi/195/briarbridge-patrol
https://scryfall.com/card/soi/236/ulvenwald-mysteries
https://scryfall.com/card/soi/233/tireless-tracker
vs
https://scryfall.com/card/soi/8/bygone-bishop
(Declaration in stone doesn't count)
Is Bygone Bishop outside white in Commander? Is Dawn of Hope? Is Mentor of the Meek? Does White commander prevent you from using bunch of draw artifacts? I think mono-white commander is fine, you're just overreacting.
Yes. Although I was under the impression they were talking about Golem specifically. They weren't.
Maro said following:
We’ve allowed a very narrow application where white can draw cards, where white has to dedicate its deck to a very specific, in flavor theme
The solution to White’s Commander problem is not figuring out how to draw more cards. That just flies against White’s core weakness. White needs to find ways to do white things that help in Commander. Some of those effects can even be new things that philosophically fit. That’s what we’re working on.
I didn't. You just ignored the big part of it.
That’s white’s main weakness. It has the best suite of answers, but the worst card draw. It can deal with any problem, if it knows what it is, but has the worst flexibility.
Also giving Well of Lost Dreams to white would break it. Plain and simple.
Not sure what you mean by this. Banisher effect exile a thing, until it leaves play. It's not like you can change the target. Also yeah, MaRo is wrong again, I'm right.
Yeah, but with Herald, and Thune you could potentially make your Inspiring commander cost 2CMC.
Funny enough - Inspiring Commander never went through R&D, which would explain a lot.
https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/pos...at-can-only-be
Ah yes. "I and people who agree with me". Fine for thee, but not for me. Also, who are these people?
Let me answer your question with another question - How is more of the wrong thing not wrong?
So, basically, in constructed it's going to allow you to play all your cards again and again and again and again. Muldrotha was also more expensive and demanded a tri color deck. This. Doesn't. You can play it in WU.
Shaper's sanctuarry doesn't turn your graveyard into your hand. One big way it differs is that it doesn't make counterspell obsolete.
Oh, my much difference. You are right though.
It's worse than Buyback. Buyback on counterspell doesn't return to hand. This essentially does. Since your graveyard is your hand.
Maybe. I don't play Standard, I play mostly Modern. And I don't play commander often. But your understanding doesn't seem much better.
Because no deck with CMC 3 or less ever won, right?
That price can be reduced, same for creature price. Or it can be used in control matchups.
Assuming you get to cast graveyard hate.
Or, planeswalkers can be used to fuel this. T3feri is a thing. This can return it.
Recursion is problematic. I suspect this is overpowered. I'm not 100% sure of it.
Sun Titan costs 6CMC, and in Modern, if you aren't winning by turn 3 your are either losing or control.
Green vs White. Green generally gets beefier creatures, it could upset the P/T calculation.
Ah, the Legacy banned Underworld Breach. I consider that and Emry a break. I might be wrong about this.
Blue gets affinity for artifacts and the ability to put them in hand. Still, no other card like that seems to exist and recurring artifacts from the graveyard aren't its color pie.
I'm near certain Underworld Breach should be black.
I'd still consider it a break, lacking any part of Magic Color Pie and any precedence.
True, but that's like saying all colors get Scry. Technically, true. But white doesn't get Opt or Serum Visions.
To clarify, they all get different graveyard interaction.
And the fact it happens relatively rarely should tell you graveyard recursion is a problematic thing.
Yes. And? I'm listing how it's limited and how it appears rarely.
What does Emeria do? Reward you for getting lands - especially Plains.
What does Sun Titan do? Reward you for attacking (and summoning it).
This is essentially taking Muldrotha's effect and sticking it on enchantment and limiting to one per turn and CMC.
You sure about that? How about you check your statements before you make them?
https://scryfall.com/card/m20/94/cavalier-of-night
https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/113/unearth
https://scryfall.com/card/grn/71/gruesome-menagerie
So your entire set will be based around glass counters on artifacts, creatures, lands, enchantments and planeswalkers Good luck with that.
I look forward to Ninjaman, winner of the next MTG World championship.
White is allowed to tutor for relevant creatures. Check the Mechanical color pie. Then again they are phasing out tutor mechanics.
No, you've argued. You haven't debunked anything.
Ah, yes. The "LALALA...Can't hear you" defense.
I didn't say they agreed with me. I listed their complaints. One said that effect overall is weird, but settled on an RW. Others said that the effect couldn't be white and belonged to green.
AFAIU, that card never went through R&D, it seems it was created by people making the MTG Arena. Plus it's a free card, which means it can be taken at any time.
https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/pos...at-can-only-be
More thematically restrictive, and works only in a thematically relevant deck (in Limited), fits White's philosophy (i.e. artifact friendly in a set that promotes artifacts). Plus, it costs 2 mana to draw.Last edited by -D-; 2020-03-16 at 07:59 AM.
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2020-03-16, 09:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II
I agree with Ninja on this. This needs one hell of a reason to be an Gargoyle Elemental. Either it's a gargoyle shaped elemental i.e. elemental, or a gargoyle. Only way a creature can have two primary types (e.g. Human Horror or Fish Rhino) is that it is some horrible twisted mutant. Was Grask an unnatural abomination? If no, he can't be a Gargoyle Elemental.
Other than that. You're missing power/toughness (P/T) of Grask.
As it is, his main ability is very meh. putting +1/+1 counter on target land is very... underwhelming. Also again doesn't work, because you have Elemental creature no base power/toughness. You can't say something is a creature. It needs to get base P/T.
Why not go:
1, Exile a creature card from a graveyard: Target noncreature land you control becomes a 3/3 Elemental creature that's still a land. Untap that land and it gains haste until end of turn.
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2020-03-16, 02:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II
Not if as you said it was only justified by being on New Phyrexia
I don't believe in the planar tint I have to say, but Maro seems to.
I won't. Then I get into pointless squabble what isn't and is a bend.
Stop conflating broken and a break.
Something can be broken e.g. Oko without being a break.
Something can be a break, without being broken - Mentor of the Meek.
Disagree.
Not with the way you define break.
If Elesh Norn was +1/+1 creatures you control and -1/-1 your opponent controls, it would be justifiable IMO.
There is no precedence for the effect in white and saying "but phyrexia is black" doesn't allow you to put black effects on nonblack cards.
Then you can't claim most LGS members know about blogatog.
I mean, if you play Modern, you already know what cards are there. It's an Eternal format. Fretting over potential things Mark says on blog is super non-important. Most of the stuff he talks about never sees light of day.
2. Most players play formats beside modern, even if only limited.
Neither does your Hanlon's Razor. You do know Murphy's Law is not a Bible, but a book of funny "laws"?
You're the one saying "Maro isn't being truthful in his claims, so I'll just go ahead and ignore it."
Oh, no. If only there was some way to play more than one game! If only I didn't have to choose one game to play for the rest of my life. Oh wait, that's not how reality works.
Here is an honest question to you - if you don't care what I think, what MaRo thinks, and what Discord thinks (and by extension everyone else), why are you even posting?
You missed out the part about Curse of the Swine. I'll repost it for you:
"I have no idea why either of these would be arguments.
Nowhere on Curse of the Swine does it even insinuate any reference to water."
"Costing blue mana does not make it a reference to something on an island.
If the card had been mechanically white they could have made it white without changing the flavor at all."
Sure, whatever.
I've listened and nothing you've said has convinced me that "Bends are just breaks we're not willing to admit" is any better than whatever RnD wrote on Core, Mantle, of colors.
"Bends are just breaks we're not willing to admit" was your stance. And you're right it's not any better, it's a lot worse.
We had this discussion before, pretty sure I argued the opposite thing. I suggested white ramp, you were adamant it shouldn't get it. And I've agreed to your points.
But I guess it doesn't support your argument to acknowledge that.
You didn't explain how this method would have allowed impulsive draw or Experimental Frenzy.
Now, we have same discussion except it's something RnD has heavily argued against.
You look for the latest effect, so Pongify < Curse of Swinge < Ichthyomorphosis.
Is Experimental Frenzy an argument against the printing of Outpost Siege effects?
The same effect can be obtained multiple different ways, the fact that one of them was used most recently does not discredit the other.
Well, then check the Mechanical Color Pie. It's apparently regularly updated.
Justifiable is the subjective part, but generally, if it is in the theme of the setting, or it has really great flavor, then yeah, go for it.
Mechanics are by far the most important factor, and when something is described as a bend rather than a break that is usually because the mechanics of the card reflect this, having found a way to put an effect into a color that doesn't usually get it with some relevant limitation.
I told you, like a red flag, sometimes you can keep it.
Yes you probably don't want too many bends in a set, but it's not "sometimes you can keep it".
Look on a case by case basis in Mark's blog,
on the articles, etc. I can tell you easily Elesh Norn in R&D is considered a bend, it's a 2 min search.
I am not a Google Search engine. Do your own homework.
No, you just behaved like this.
MaRo agrees with me? I'm right. MaRo disagrees with me? He's wrong.
Others like my mechanic? I'm right. Do others dislike my mechanic? They're wrong.
Every time I have disagreed with anything I have provided arguments for my case.
It's amazing how you get to claim Maro can be wrong when it suits you, but I can't.
You left out this part:
You're the one saying bleed, bend and break is wrong, instead thinking your break/justifiable break is the correct distinction.
It also justifies her ability. Her first static ability gives +2/+2 to Elesh Norn's Phyrexia. Her second gives -2/-2 to everyone else.
Ok, but I'm talking mechanics, not implementation. The implementation is the reason it sucked. They should have either:
Cipher sucked because all the cards with it sucked. The mechanic itself was pretty powerful.
a) Kept some amount of regular mana
b) Made it is on a colored creature, but it's ability cost Phyrexian mana
Or what you suggested, kept it on artifact/colorless creatures.
Sure. I stand by what I said. You're giving Phyrexian mana too much flak.
Moving goalpost, never maid claims on it's goodness or not
although I disagree WW, or W, pay 2 life is significantly different than Shelter.
I said it wasn't a break. If I can design a card with Phyrexian mana without it being a break, it proves Phyrexian mana isn't the issue.
That doesn't change that the way they implemented phyrexian mana was filled with breaks.
When talking about a mechanic we're not just talking about the pure idea, we're also talking about the implementation.
Disagree. It looks pretty nice to me.
The phyrexian mana symbol also has a slightly different tint, but I assume they wouldn't do that if they mixed them.
Well, to be honest, it kinda does. When white had better creature removal than black (e.g. Path to Exile, Sword to Plowshares), why even have black?
This is what I wrote:
"is like saying white doesn't get to destroy attacking and blocking creatures, because that encroaches on black as the removal color"
Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares don't fall into this category.
Having powerful, cheap creature removal in white, undermines the power of black.
Having limited creature removal otoh is better, but still depends on efficiency. If Rebuke was W, it would definitely encroach on black.
Condemn actually sees a bit of play in modern in UW control. It puts on the bottom which is actually better than destroying, and the life gain isn't very relevant, decks that want to destroy attacking creatures aren't that aggressive. It's not played in Esper or Jeskai control though, as Push and Bolt are both much better.
Limiting yourself to attacking creatures is a very large drawback.
Although I disagree on life loss vs damage. They are different enough that people won't confuse the two.
How different are they effectively? How often does the distinction between them actually come up?
You wrote that black didn't get Mind control in seven or more years. When it literally got it in Eldraine and M20.
I'll repost it:
"But the point I made later in my last comment still stands, there was a span between 2011 where Enslave was Reprinted, Captivating Vampire and Olivia Voldaren were printed, up until 2017 where Captivating Vampire and Olivia Voldaren was reprinted, which was then followed up by new effects in 2018 and 2019. During that time, 2011 to 2017 no black Mind Control effects were printed, yet the ability remained black."
The 7~ years were 2011 to 2017.
Not just limitation. Pricing as well. If Rebuke is white and exiles a creature? Well **** Fatal Push, gimme More 1CMC Exile-Rebuke.
Rebuke is pretty much this. It's mostly played as one of in UW control.
You keep making statements about balance that makes it clear you're not that great at judging what is actually good in constructed.
I don't feel your cards are sufficiently white.
And once color pie moves to include white draw, I'll be glad to be wrong.
But not today.
Neither is this the way to do it, nor is this the intended way R&D allows white draw, nor the effect they are thinking to turn into a white draw.
So Impluse draw existed around the time Black had Vigilance?
Also the other effects were newer, yet you completely ignored that.
Not very persuasive. Sure, it proves Color Pie moves, but not that it should move in way you want it.
Impulsive draw makes sense in blue, no one would claim it was out of color for blue, but it fits much better in red, and gives it something it needed.
All other examples aren't impulse draws (they aren't free)
or similar to Robber of the Rich. You can't pay in generic.
Being able to pay any color is a way they designed this effect later, because the other was bad design.
Thief of Sanity is definitely a similar design to Nightveil Specter.
Moving goalpost,
I said white gets most of these effects. Not that it got them too recently.
Your argument was black had some evasion ergo black should get hard evasion.
Black has hard evasion on creatures.
Black has always had hard to block effects, and whenever an effect was discontinued it was given a new one.
The same isn't true for white.
To me that's flawed reasoning. I.e. a color can do something at a penalty, ergo it should get to do it without a penalty.
How is that not a precedence for doing the same thing with unblockable?
Want to apply the 2018 filter to my argument? Since 2018, black got one hard evasion, by saccing a creature when attacking (Bloodmist Infiltrator).
You're saying protection is an unblockable like effect.
Yet hard unblockable is actual hard unblockable, it is not an unblockable like effect.
The black unblockable like effect is menace, which it has gotten on 33 cards since 2018.
Maybe you need a better example -
Black got Bloodmist Infiltrator, ergo it should get hard unblockable.
Modern Horizons got changeling outcast.
White got Angelic Purge, ergo it should get Fatal Push or at least Grotesque Demise.
Possibly you noticed that card too, because you corrected it to murder, to which I will say, those two cards aren't even remotely similar.
I'm just noting your inconsistent way of arguing things. I.e. Sun Titan is ok, even though he appear in standard set about 8-9 years ago. And Emeria and Profound Journey it happened 5 years ago. But
You seem to have a knack for forgetting the context arguments were used in.
I did not claim that protection appearing rarely is an argument for white not getting protection like effects.
My argument for black getting unblockable included that black had fear and intimidate, and has menace. Each of those replaced the previous, so black has always had a hard to block keyword, R&D have made sure black always has access to it, because it's a part of the identity of black.
Unlike that, landwalk, which appeared in all colors, and protection, which isn't proper evasion, were your arguments for white also being able to get hard to block, but landwalk has been discontinued, protection is rare, and neither have been replaced by a different type of evasion, because it's less a part of white's identity. This is also why white doesn't have any creatures with hard unblockable.
Also they're both color hate, which is in all colors, but white tend to get the most of it.
Ok. Find a black card that has "Can't be blocked" without it giving up card advantage or blocking?
Ogre Marauder has unless the opponent gives up card advantage.
But I'm not arguing for "can't be blocked" without a downside on creatures, I'm arguing for it on spells. On spells the "Can't block" disadvantage is meaningless/an upside.
Also Dreamstutter, which was the source for this discussion, even if it didn't make the unblockable creature irrelevantly unable to block, it also was unblockable itself.
Or failing that find me in Mechanical Color Pie, where it says "can't be blocked" is black?
This must be a troll, you can't be this stupid. I explained to you already.
Here is an even more simplified and contrived example:
Your opponent has single enchantment cards in play and no cards in hand, all his lands are tapped and his next draw is a land.
Enchantment card says "At the beginning of each opponents' upkeep destroy all creatures opponent controls, then destroy all creatures opponent controls. If at the end of their turn, an opponent controls no creature they lose the game."
You have no cards in hand, you have 1 land and an artifact creature that says:
1: Regenerate this creature.
T, 1: This creature gains indestructible until the end of turn.
At the start of your turn upkeep the enchantment card opponent controls triggers.
Do you pay for regenerate or pay for indestructible?
Since you like mentioning your discord so much try showing them this argument for instant speed indestructible being proactive and see what they say. Ask them if they think Sheltering light is proactive while you're at it.
Take this example:
You have a 2 drop creature and three mana untapped, your opponent has no creatures and three mana untapped, you swing with your 2 drop, your opponent casts murder, you cast Sheltering Light to protective.
Is Sheltering Light not used Proactively?
Take this example:
Your opponent untaps with a wasteland and three other lands. You have a lethal board and one untapped Breeding Pool and a Mending Touch in hand. During their drawstep they wasteland your breeding pool to keep you off counter mana. In response you cast Mending Touch on your biggest creature. They have a Day of Judgement in hand.
Was the Mending Touch not used reactively?
Both instant speed indestructible and regeneration are used reactively 99% of the time. Indestructible being usable proactively a tiny sliver more often doesn't keep effects like Sheltering Light from being reactive effects.
Nitpick. They fizzle as in, they don't do anything. Not like hexproof can fizzle a spell.
That's literally why I used sorcery speed and instant speed. So stack wouldn't get involved.
And I said it's up in the air. But as they are with white getting counterspell, in theory, they aren't a break.
In Mechanical Color Pie
https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/pos...-article-today
Also in The Great White Way Revisited. White is all about establishing rules to prevent suffering. That's inherently proactive. It doesn't mean white can't react.
So why was your argument against white getting regenerate that it was reactive?
Green has more investigate -AND- more investigate generators:
https://scryfall.com/card/soi/195/briarbridge-patrol
https://scryfall.com/card/soi/236/ulvenwald-mysteries
https://scryfall.com/card/soi/233/tireless-tracker
vs
https://scryfall.com/card/soi/8/bygone-bishop
(Declaration in stone doesn't count)
Is Bygone Bishop outside white in Commander? Is Dawn of Hope? Is Mentor of the Meek? Does White commander prevent you from using bunch of draw artifacts? I think mono-white commander is fine, you're just overreacting.
Make this statement on your card design discord server and show what response you get.
Life gain is a very narrow in flavor theme. The problem with Dawn of Hope is it can give you life by itself, so it's not narrow anymore.
I didn't. You just ignored the big part of it.
Dawn of Hope is according to MaRo near-break.
White gets life-gain, creature generation, but it doesn't get card draw. Why would DoH be a break because of life gain/creature generation?
Look at Twisted Reflection. It does two individually blue things, but the entwine is black because those individually blue things combined give minus toughness, which blue isn't allowed to do.
Also giving Well of Lost Dreams to white would break it. Plain and simple.
Not sure what you mean by this. Banisher effect exile a thing, until it leaves play. It's not like you can change the target. Also yeah, MaRo is wrong again.
Being unable to change the target doesn't make in unflexible, you can't change the target of most kill spells.
An answer being flexible means it answers a lot of different things. Oblivion Ring answers a lot of different things.
Yeah, but with Herald, and Thune you could potentially make your Inspiring commander cost 2CMC.
This is so slow that I feel bad for you if you lose to it.
You seem to have ignored the rest of my comment where I showed your fears were for nothing.
Funny enough - Inspiring Commander never went through R&D, which would explain a lot.
https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/pos...at-can-only-be
I think Maro is just sad not everyone hate white as much as he does.
Also major L to Maro for "I don't think it wouldn't have been made".
Who? Who are these people? Do they know this never went through R&D?
Players who realize that in a card game every color should have card draw.
Let me answer your question with another question? How is more of the wrong thing not wrong?
One of your arguments against the card was that with multiples you could cast multiple cards from your graveyard, but that shouldn't matter for anything, if it's okay to recast one spell every turn with one enchantment, then it's okay to recast two with two enchantments.
So, basically, in constructed it's going to allow you to play all your cards again and again and again and again. Muldrotha was also more expensive and demanded a tri color deck. This. Doesn't. You can play it in WU.
That will probably be good in standard, not in modern. If it's for commander we can just print it in a commander precon.
Shaper's sanctuarry doesn't turn your graveyard into your hand.
Oh, my much difference. You are right though.
Look at the amount of effects that give you creatures back to your hand when they die. Now compare that to effects that do the same with instant and sorceries.
It's worse than buyback. Buyback on counter spell doesn't return to hand. This essentially does. Since your graveyard is your hand.
Maybe. I don't play Standard, I play mostly Modern. And I don't play commander often.
Because no deck with CMC 3 or less ever won, right?
You seem to once again have forgotten the context.
You were arguing that it was broken in limited, but Kiora Bests the Sea God and Dream Trawler are way better.
That price can be reduced, same for creature price. Or it can be used in control matchups.
It's going to be very hard to do those efficiently.
It's good against control, but so is Assemble the Legion.
Assuming you get to cast graveyard hate.
Or, planeswalkers can be used to fuel this. 3ferei is a thing. This can return it.
Recursion is problematic. I suspect this is overpowered. I'm not 100% sure of it.
Sun Titan costs 6CMC, and in Modern, if you aren't winning by turn 3 your are either losing or control.
Where do you see this being good in modern.
Green vs White. Green generally gets beefier creatures, it could upset the P/T calculation
Do you really don't think white gets hate effects on 2/2s?
You have yet to give an example of your statement being true.
Ah, the Legacy banned Underworld Breach. I consider that and Emry a break. I might be wrong about this.
What happened to "Something can be broken, without being a break"?
Blue gets affinity for artifacts and the ability to put them in hand. Still, no other card like that seems to exist and recurring artifacts from the graveyard aren't its color pie.
I'm near certain Underworld Breach should be black.
I agree that it doesn't feel red, but I don't think it's black either, black shouldn't cast artifacts and enchantments from your graveyard.
I don't think any color actually gets to recast any card type, but green might be closest since it gets to return any color, but it definitely doesn't feel green.
I'd still consider it a break, lacking any part of Magic Color Pie and any precedence.
True, but that's like saying all colors get Scry. Technically, true. But white doesn't get Opt or Serum Visions.
To clarify, they all get different graveyard interaction.
And the fact it happens relatively rarely should tell you graveyard recursion is a tricky thing.
Yes. And? I'm listing how it's limited and how it appears rarely.
What does Emeria do? Reward you for getting lands - especially Plains.
What does Sun Titan do? Reward you for attacking (and summoning it).
This is essentially taking Muldrotha's effect and sticking it on an enchantment and giving it a restriction.
Experimental Frenzy is essentially Future Sight with a restriction.
You sure about that? How about you check your statements before your make them?
https://scryfall.com/card/m20/94/cavalier-of-night
https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/113/unearth
https://scryfall.com/card/grn/71/gruesome-menagerie
If this was a black card it wouldn't care about cmc.
I didn't mean no black card cares about cmc.
Those cards all cheat the card into play, so they restrict cmc for ballance.
Bring Back makes you pay, so that's not an issue.
So your entire set will be based around glass counters on artifacts, creatures, lands, enchantments and planeswalkers. Good luck with that.
You are allowed +1/+1 or -1/-1 counters and one other type of coutners. How you use the other one is up to you.
I look forward to Ninjaman, winner of the next MTG World championship.
Calling it hyper slow is a pretty big hyperbole, especially since you only need one in play already and the other in the yard.
White is allowed to tutor for relevant creatures. Check the Mechanical color pie.
No, you've argued. You haven't debunked anything.
Impulsive draw allows you to cast it right away, but it has a deadline. This doesn't let you draw it right away but it has no deadline. How are they comparable besides both exiling cards from your library and giving card advantage?
Ah, yes. The "LALALA...Can't hear you" defense.
If they had any new argument you could present them, if they didn't then it's not worth anything.
I didn't say they agreed with me. I listed their complaints. One said that effect overall is weird, but settled on an RW. Others said that the effect couldn't be white and belonged to green.
AFAIU, that card never went through R&D, it was created by people making the MTG Arena. Plus it's a free card, which means it can be taken at any time.
https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/pos...at-can-only-be
I still think it should be within white, at least with a cost. The idea that white has to struggle this much to draw cards isn't sustainable when commander is the most popular non kitchen table format.
More thematically restrictive,
and works only in a thematically relevant deck (in limited),
Would Mentor of the Meek be okay if it limited it to nontokens then?
fits White's philosophy (i.e. artifact friendly in a set that promotes artifacts).
Plus, it costs 2 mana to draw.
If a mentor of the meek effect that costs 2 to draw and doesn't trigger off tokens is okay I'm actually fine with that. You could probably make it power 2 or less at that point.
Bridge from Limbo - 2WW
Enchantment - R
At the beginning of each end step, choose target creature card in your graveyard that was put there from the battlefield this turn. Return it to the battlefield.Last edited by Ninjaman; 2020-03-16 at 02:57 PM.
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2020-03-16, 10:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II
Said, it was justified by being on a black tinted plane. If it was just a bend, I'd expect it to appear more often.
Eh, they have white giving -1/-1 counters why not give some -1/-1 until end of turn in a black tinted plane
Your question was invalid. "You're acting like phyrexian mana was a totally fine mechanic" has no point if we are talking about color breaks. Break != Broken.
Your way of defining break/bend is subjective. I don't know what or what not you think. And have no way to verify.
And yours isn't.
There is no precedence for the effect in white and saying "but phyrexia is black" doesn't allow you to put black effects on nonblack cards.
Sure. But do new cards appear in MaRo's blog before on other channels? Does Mark discuss things that never pan out?
Why would you use MaRo's blog post to predict what decks will be played?
It's more nuanced than that. Maro or RnD's action don't follow from what they write, they are paid to save face of their company, and their livelihood depend on it.
In liue of that "Bends are breaks we don't want to admit" makes sense.
I play many games, and follow game design, why do you think I don't understand mana.
I get it. If I disagree I'm a troll. Very intellectual.
I still think it's a reference to mage turning some sort of sailors to swine, but honestly, I don't care about this point.
To me, the number of references is too much to just be some soliders, but for you it isn't.
No. Are you? "Bends are things I think are bends, everyone else is wrong", is a better viewpoint?
And I believe I made some examples of the white draw and suggested some changes. Also deflecting, you know RnD hates white draw.
They changed the color pie. They added an ancient blue effect to red and made https://scryfall.com/card/jou/106/pr...c-flamespeaker
White doesn't get to draw efficiently. Want to draw, either build some heavy deck around
Your argument, was Mind Control wasn't printed since, lemme check:
So Scars was printed in 2010. In 2017 you get an article listing Mind Control as black. Black gets black mind control on Captivating Vampire. Since then they print more mind control effects.
In other words: Articles >> MaRo's blog. New >> Old.
Disagree. What helps is how people perceive the cards. If you make a mechanically interesting thing that no one gets is white - then it isn't white.
What helped impulse draw was that it was a sparsely used mechanic. So they moved it to Red. Similar to Mind Control. Mind control was rarely in black. At time Black got it, it didn't have too much claim to it, compared to white (with Preacher, Evangelize, and debt of loyalty).
They define it in their writing, in broad strokes in various articles, but on a card to card basis in MaRo's blog.
Ah, the "I'm not X, you're X argument".
My claim was that MaRo is always wrong. You however, base your bleed/break distinction on his writing, except when you disagree. Which I like to point out.
To quote a poet: Overall flavor matters.
Red can get life gain if the card demands it.
No. When we talk about mechanic we talk about the mechanic. In general. On any possible card.
When we discuss cards, we discuss individual cards. Also, something sucking and not sucking has nothing to do with being a color break.
Otherwise:
Let's entertain this ""logic"" - Oko was OP, ergo planeswalkers are OP, ergo Planeswalkers are a color break.
It was a 2min example. I didn't sit and balance it out. Maybe I could have given it vigilance instead of cantrip, those details are sorted out later.
Not always. Life is a resource but a context dependent one. Didn't forget.
Look, they implemented transform effects wrong (see Oko), does it invalidate transform effects? Or + abilities on planeswalkers?
You thinking about mechanic in only what exists, is a very narrow view I don't subscribe
Citation needed.
And I explained just below. Give white hyper efficient removal, even on attack/block, and it's going to encroach on black. White has "fair" solutions pricy with a downside. Just downside isn't enough.
Name a better removal for white in Pioneer?
There is exactly 13 cards that have that reminder. There is 71 cards that have flying as a reminder.
Reminder is there for new players, learning the game. I've seen 8-year-olds figure out the difference. What was your point?
Did you? Let me quote it:
You didn't say 7 years. You said since Scars. That's 10 years.
This is debunked. Next, around june 2017 mechanical color pie was written. And in august 2018 Captivating Vampire was printed.
Would it? My proposal also exiles. That means no graveyard shenanigans.
Yes. Also I didn't ignore your cards, stop being so attention hogging.
Other cards weren't impulsive draws. They were exile - cast for free. So Impulsive cast?
And exile opponent's library - pay in non-generic. Which was mill basically.
Pay in generic is not impulsive draws - that's stealing. And it appears on various Mind Stealers, Hostage Takers and Robbers.
No. It proves, Color pie moves. However, it doesn't move on your whim.
And a downside.
Against color pie. No precedence.
And I think you explained why there is no precedence for black not getting can't block with a downside. Adding a meaningful disadvantage would render it pointless, and adding a meaningless restriction would encroach on blue's turf.
No, Last breath was a typo when copy/pasting.
Angelic purge is "Exile creature, artifact or enchantment" at a downside (sacrifice creature). Murder is more restricted form of removal. No downside, different mana cost 1WW and only creature and doesn't exile. It's even a one shot effect!
Funny enough when I used to argumentation you did, they said - "your conception of what constitutes a reactive card is weird".
You avoided my question.
Pretty sure I explained. White is allowed to react, and it has best answers and no way to pull them on demand.
True, I should have been more specific. This is you I'm dealing with.
If I did claim white can't react, then I was wrong. White can react, but it isn't flexible in reacting. One large part of flexibility is being able to DRAW it's anwers.
Irrelevant to discussion. One rare usually gives Investigate to the opponent. Green has more Investigate generators and more effective too.
Yes. For a card that turned a creature into a Plains.
Are you saying Declaration in Stone is a card draw? If so, that's a very, very lousy card draw.
So exile your own creatures for Clues (limited to 4 at best), vs. dying nontokens generating Clues, or just attacking? Gimme those uncommon greens.
I did. Responses varied, from nah white, doesn't need to draw, to yeah it does.
Also, why would you play mono-color, when you can play multicolor and shore its vulnerabilities?
In what world is life gain a narrow theme? White gets too much incidental life gain.
Maro said it was an experiment, and stradling the line between a heavy bend and a break, whatever that mean.
Blue, Green.
Also White gets best hate cards, not sure what your point is here.
So commander players twice? Some people in Discord were hostile to white card draw idea. Guess, they don't play commander.
I never said it's ok to recast one spell every turn.
No, this just adds 1-4 cards from graveyard to hand.
Yes. I know. It still leads to repetivie gameplay and it devalues answers.
Same.
Wow, if only white was good at removing artifacts and enchantments.
It's not limited to once per turn. It's limited to 1-4 per turn.
Turn 5? I can see this being played turn 3. Get enchantments cost 1 less, this enters turn 3. Then you somehow dump your library to graveyard and you get free draws.
Not my argument, just a side note.
It's on one legendary blue card and it needs to tap. Still better limit than Bring Back.
Told you before. Bend is a break you're not willing to admit.
You have some precedence for that? In white?
And black.
Then it won't help white's woes.
Not really. It rewards letting your cheap stuff die.
You keep acting like flavor doesn't matter. And to me it doesn't feel white. Even if mechanically different.
Pretty sure I gave an example of black card that cares about cheap stuff. Hypotethicals don't interest me. The effect already existing in another color interests me.
And Titan/Emeria/profound Journey don't cheat cards into play?
You're allowed to have one type of counters per permament, everything above is just bad design.
Tutoring is getting phased out.
And MaRo's opinions if they conflict with your own.
Too tired. Not answering rest.Last edited by -D-; 2020-03-16 at 10:55 PM.
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2020-03-17, 01:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II
Not if their argument for it being a bend was that it made thematic sense.
I'm not saying he's right, he's not. But claiming he lies is no way to conduct an argument.
Eh, they have white giving -1/-1 counters why not give some -1/-1 until end of turn in a black tinted plane
Do you think Elesh Norn is a break or not?
Your question was invalid. "You're acting like phyrexian mana was a totally fine mechanic" has no point if we are talking about color breaks. Break != Broken.
Phyrexian mana is a horrible argument, it is one of the worst color break designs ever made.
Your way of defining break/bend is subjective. I don't know what or what not you think. And have no way to verify.
And yours isn't.
There is no precedence for the effect in white and saying "but phyrexia is black" doesn't allow you to put black effects on nonblack cards.
That's pretty much the entire argument for something being a color, what is the precedence for it.
Sure. But do new cards appear in MaRo's blog before on other channels? Does Mark discuss things that never pan out?
Why would you use MaRo's blog post to predict what decks will be played?
They don't need to follow the blog, I don't follow it. But if you care about magic and keep somewhat up with what is happening in magic, you're going to hear about it at some point.
It's more nuanced than that. Maro or RnD's action don't follow from what they write, they are paid to save face of their company, and their livelihood depend on it.
In liue of that "Bends are breaks we don't want to admit" makes sense.
Bends aren't any better than your "justified breaks".
I play many games, and follow game design, why do you think I don't understand mana.
I get it. If I disagree I'm a troll. Very intellectual.
I still think it's a reference to mage turning some sort of sailors to swine, but honestly, I don't care about this point.
To me, the number of references is too much to just be some soliders, but for you it isn't.
No. Are you? "Bends are things I think are bends, everyone else is wrong", is a better viewpoint?
They changed the color pie. They added an ancient blue effect to red and made https://scryfall.com/card/jou/106/pr...c-flamespeaker
My argument is that my cards fit in white. Argue against that.
White doesn't get to draw efficiently. Want to draw, either build some heavy deck around
Your argument, was Mind Control wasn't printed since, lemme check:
So Scars was printed in 2010. In 2017 you get an article listing Mind Control as black. Black gets black mind control on Captivating Vampire. Since then they print more mind control effects.
Disagree. What helps is how people perceive the cards. If you make a mechanically interesting thing that no one gets is white - then it isn't white.
Psionic Blast has blue flavor, but it's very much not a blue card.
What helped impulse draw was that it was a sparsely used mechanic. So they moved it to Red. Similar to Mind Control. Mind control was rarely in black. At time Black got it, it didn't have too much claim to it, compared to white (with Preacher, Evangelize, and debt of loyalty).
They define it in their writing, in broad strokes in various articles, but on a card to card basis in MaRo's blog.
You can't expect me to have clear definitions when R&D don't have them.
My claim was that MaRo is always wrong.
I'm not going to reply to the next until you explain how this isn't just a blatant troll, or an insane conspiracy theory.
How can the lead designer ALWAYS be wrong?Last edited by Ninjaman; 2020-03-17 at 01:17 AM.
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2020-03-17, 07:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II
I didn't say he lies, I said to cover up and use PR. Good PR - never lies. It just takes a constructive approach to the truth - our cigars aren't generic toxic piece of tobacco, they are "toasted", "cured", etc.
Pretty sure I said yes. Why do you want me to repeat this point?
I said the reverse anthem is justified in flavor (. What I dislike about it, is the amount of power it has.
Here is the thing. Phyrexian mana as a mechanic isn't a break, even by your definition. The cards they made with it WERE. Phyrexian mana being improperly balanced is on RnD.
Phyrexian Vanguard 1W
Creature - Soldier
{P/W}{P/W}: Phyrexian Vanguard gains indestructible until end of turn.
2/1
Because it's asking around and exploring, everyone had their own meaning what "bend/break" was. If this was an objective thing. Like White has a Symbol of Sun, it would be easily verified and not cause as much debate as it did.
I told you precedence is important but isn't everything. Even Mechanical color pie isn't perfect. That's why taking more data helps.
Not really. I merely ask you to justify it. The flavor would need on point, which I didn't find in either Bring Back or Bring From Beyond. And again, this is subjective.
For flavor reasons, White draw would need to be "fair" - e.g. symmetric permissive draw would fit.
For example, Curse of the Swine represents a specific story from Homer's Odyssey, when the sorceress Circe transforms Odysseus's sailors into pigs.
Lots of things fit white draw better than some form of implusive draw or some form of graveyard recursion.
Where did I say that? I said I played with a radically different version of Magic the Gathering. One with mana, just without Basic Lands. It had non-basic lands, and each card could become a land of specific color. Basically it was Magic, without Mana Screw. And it was good.
Perhaps. But it didn't appear on mono black in long, time, was made a part of Color Pie and few months later it appeared. I don't care about this point it may or may not have moved.
Did you read the core/mantle/etc. article you linked?
#6) The Overall Flavor Matters
The final thing to think about when looking at a bleed, is to step back and look at the card in its entirety. The poster child of this lesson is the card Form of the Dragon. When looked in isolation, many of these abilities feel very out of flavor for red. But when you pull back and get an overall sense of the card—the player-as-planeswalker turning into a dragon—you start to get a flavor that very much feels at home in red.
There is so much impulse draw, your version is going to be classified as "impulse draw with extra steps". Also your point about having to wait, is not much different than playing Light Up The Stage. I've seen in played in similar ways.
The other is something that appears rarely and never so far on white. Plus, it appeared very recently on Muldrotha. You can't really expect people to forget about that.
If your definitions aren't clear what's there to discuss. I say nay, you say yay, so I guess we might call it quits?
You know my definition of color break. According to that, classifying something as a bend is irrelevant, just how well can a card justify itself.
Want a shore up mono-white draw lack in commander? Make a commander.
Orlov, Chief Inquisitor - 1WWW
Legendary Creature - Human Cleric
Whenever you sacrifice an artifact, create a 1/1 white Human creature token.
Whenever you cast a creature spell with converted mana cost 3 or less, investigate.
3/4Last edited by -D-; 2020-03-20 at 06:39 AM.
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2020-03-17, 01:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II
Wow now THAT'S clever! O_O
Hummm... Ok, I know Im bad at this and I know it's not my place to adjust something like this but... What would you think of this instead:
Orlov, Chief Inquisitor - 1WWW
Legendary Creature - Human Cleric
Pay 5 life: Create a 1/1 spirit flying creature token.
Each time a creature token you control attacks to your opponents, investigate.
3/4
While I liked your creation just now but I like the FEEL of this above. Use your life to create Spirit tokens and make then attack to get clues.Last edited by Emmerlaus; 2020-03-17 at 02:03 PM.
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2020-03-17, 03:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II
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2020-03-18, 06:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II
Thank you.
Your card is pretty nice. Few quibbles.
Templating should be "Whenever a token creature you control", since the ability is triggered.
Second quibble is that attacking token is much easier than nontoken. Especially, since this can generate it's own token. In commander, you could generate a bunch of these (40 life limit) and attack and whatever.
Third is that so far, only Vampires could pay life for effect, at least in Pioneer (in Modern there is the Planar Chaos' Crovax, Planar Chaos is the edition they decided to break everything for ****s and giggles). It's a minor one, but good to keep in mind.
Look at this search:
https://scryfall.com/search?q=o%3Apa...order=released
Only ones that pay life for effect is Adanto Vanguard and Glorifier of Dusk.
Yeah, went through few iteration with Discord, they thought the Eminence was bad. I'm not a commander player, I thought it was decent.
Eh, it's more of a demonstration. But in flavor would be he gets other humans to investigate for him (nontokens), and the more artifact the purges, the more followers (tokens) he gets.
I didn't count enemy artifacts, because I didn't want to make this an anti-artifact deck.
Bah. Had a fun idea about Planeswalker Auras
Last edited by -D-; 2020-03-20 at 06:41 AM.
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2020-03-18, 06:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II
I saw. I agree emminence is a bad mechanic, and stapling card advantage on it is extremely worrying.
Eh, it's more of a demonstration. But in flavor would be he gets other humans to investigate for him (nontokens), and the more artifacts he "purges", the more followers (tokens) he gets.
I didn't count enemy artifacts.
Bah. Had a fun idea about Planeswalker Auras
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2020-03-18, 07:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II
So it's a tiny bit strong huh? What about this then:
Orlov, Chief Inquisitor - 1WWW
Legendary Creature - Vampire Cleric
Pay 5 life: Create a 1/1 spirit flying creature token for each cards in your hand. Use this ability only once per turn.
Whenever a creature token you control deal damage to your opponents, investigate.
3/4
I know my wording is bad, how should I deal with this?
Made it a Vampire at your suggestion...
Is it less strong to make it that they need to hit your opponent but also, that it can summon more then one spirit at a time?
Also written in a way that it needs to damage your opponent now, to make it less OP
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2020-03-18, 08:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-03-18, 09:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II
Mono-white already has problem with card draw. And it can only be used once per turn so if people attack you, you'll need to use it right away to block.
If you attack with your tokens, you cant use them to block.
In mono-white, I dont feel its unbalanced. The fact that the tokens need to deal damage to investigate mean you need to go against the one who doesnt have flier or the one with no creature to block... or simply go with huge number of tokens. So the commander would be ineffective if the number of tokens isnt huge.
Tokens are sensitive to boardwipe strategy too.
I dont feel like, in mono-white, that its broken compared to I dont know, Korvold, Fae-Cursed King. DOnt forget it needs 3 white mana to cast, which is very taxing if you try to put in in a Commander deck but without the creature being your commander.Last edited by Emmerlaus; 2020-03-18 at 09:02 AM.
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2020-03-18, 10:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II
You don't need to be mono white to play this, and it's not difficult to play with with four cards in hand, then activate it on your turn, then once on the opponent's turn, and then swing for 11.
If you attack with your tokens, you cant use them to block.
In mono-white, I dont feel its unbalanced.
The fact that the tokens need to deal damage to investigate mean you need to go against the one who doesnt have flier or the one with no creature to block... or simply go with huge number of tokens. So the commander would be ineffective if the number of tokens isnt huge.
Tokens are sensitive to boardwipe strategy too.
I dont feel like, in mono-white, that its broken compared to I dont know, Korvold, Fae-Cursed King.
DOnt forget it needs 3 white mana to cast, which is very taxing if you try to put in in a Commander deck but without the creature being your commander.
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2020-03-18, 11:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II
Then the original below is more balanced? OR should we change something to it?
Orlov, Chief Inquisitor - 1WWW
Legendary Creature - Vampire Cleric
Pay 5 life: Create a 1/1 flying spirit creature token.
Each time a creature token you control attacks to your opponents, investigate.
3/4
Would it be more balanced to make it, I dont know, a 2/3? Is paying 5 life too much or should it be 3?Last edited by Emmerlaus; 2020-03-18 at 11:56 AM.
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2020-03-19, 01:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II
Why are you paying life to make your token in the first place? It doesn't feel very white, and it's hard to balance.
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2020-03-19, 12:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II
Well mono-white need to do something different to become competitive against other color. I thought it was about that, making a Commander that stayed close to what likes to do and yet increasing their potential.
Also, vampires does use "pay life" as a mecanic for effects and their IS mono-white vampires.
Sigh well what about this:
Orlov, the Inquisitor - 1WWW
Legendary Creature - Vampire Cleric
When Orlov, Chief Inquisitor enter the battlefield, create a 1/1 white spirit token creature with flying for each creature in your graveyard.
Each time a token creature you control deal damage to your opponents, investigate
2/3