MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable

[Ruck]

I guess I also disagree about the Circus scene. In my opinion, while it is likely to be intended as a clue about the identity of the MitD, it is inherently too subjective to be of much use in the guessing game

Well, it's fine if you disagree, but I will point out that "intended as a clue" and "not of use" contradict each other.

It's certainly subjective in that nothing concrete is done or shown, and we have to make our own judgments about what is going on in the scene, why MitD is drawing the reactions he is despite doing nothing, and why the reactions are so widely varied. But if it's intended as a clue, then we must be able to draw some conclusions from it, making it of use. The subjectivity may mean people draw widely varied conclusions, or simply conclude that the scene supports their already-preferred candidate. But I do think it's significant. (I probably don't need to rehash what I've concluded at this point.)

[Kish]

The maturing differently thing is true. According to the FBS post, though, the Slaads that fit would be at least the fourth evolutionary stage for the MitD, which makes it harder for me to conceive as "juvenile" (but I don't know how many stages of evolution it goes through in total or how long it lives).

Egg implanted in a spellcaster, born a green slaad.
Becomes a grey slaad.
Becomes a death slaad.
Becomes a white slaad.
Becomes a black slaad.

As an outsider, it is clinically immortal, like Celia.

OK, by the rules, you've convinced me that the Slaad is a better fit than I realized. I still don't think it's the best fit for the Circus scene (or really, that anything but the Protean is a good fit), and I still don't think Rich would depict a Slaad in the comic already if he was going to reveal MitD as one, because that cheapens the reveal.

A red slaad is a fairly weak monster, a white slaad is epic. I do not agree that depicting, in effect, a creature as close to the creature in the darkness as one of Tsukiko's wights is close to Xykon would cheapen the reveal, and as has been discussed, it does illustrate that slaadi in OotS exist and can keep track of their offspring.

So even if MitD shifted into the thing he thought would hit Miko and Windstriker as lightly as possible, he would still be using the Protean's base attack bonus and Strength modifier. (The Protean has +33 for the base attack and 53 strength.)

Quick, someone find a creature whose natural attacks gain the Merciful quality as an Ex ability!

(I am now picturing Rich saying, "You should have been considering why Miko and Windstriker were still so alive after being smashed through a wall.")

I left out a couple of people, I now realize. Most notably Oona, and I'm thinking of her "So small, though. But will grow in time!" comment. Does the Slaad grow in size at its next stage of evolution? (What stage are we even at?)

White slaadi are Large, black slaadi are Huge.

(Also, because I keep seeing people say "slaads"--slaadi is the plural.)

[hroþila]

Well, it's fine if you disagree, but I will point out that "intended as a clue" and "not of use" contradict each other.

It's certainly subjective in that nothing concrete is done or shown, and we have to make our own judgments about what is going on in the scene, why MitD is drawing the reactions he is despite doing nothing, and why the reactions are so widely varied. But if it's intended as a clue, then we must be able to draw some conclusions from it, making it of use. The subjectivity may mean people draw widely varied conclusions, or simply conclude that the scene supports their already-preferred candidate. But I do think it's significant. (I probably don't need to rehash what I've concluded at this point.)

Personally I do think the circus scene will make a lot of sense in retrospect, I just think it's too subjective to rule out most candidates. Other big scenes rely on the MitD doing something, the circus scene relies on other characters having subjective reactions to the MitD. Those characters probably have a very good reason to react the way they do, but they don't need to. We're not dealing with the objective reality of the MitD but with how he's perceived by others (or rather, with the effect he has on others, but even if there's mechanical reasons for that effect it's still mediated by others, it's not just about the MitD). It's a bit like Oona saying the MitD will grow – maybe she knows what the MitD is and she knows he will grow (and I consider this the most likely possibility), but conceivably she could just be making an assumption on the basis that the MitD acts like a juvenile.

I believe the circus scene is of limited use at the moment for the purposes of this thread because every major candidate has flaws that are way more concrete and objective (thus requiring inherently more far-fetched explanations) than anything that can be said against a candidate that doesn't have a great explanation for the circus scene. For example, that the uvuudaum looks repulsive but has high charisma and thus can explain the circus scene pretty well is great and all, but the lack of eyes and mouth is (IMO) a more objective deal-breaker that could never be offset by the reactions of random circus-goers who may conceivably have their own subjective reasons to find the MitD uglier and/or more fascinating than we'd expect. Most candidates are monsters, and monsters usually look weird.

In my view, having a great explanation for the circus scene is kinda like having Wish for the escape scene: it's ideal, but I can't discard candidates on the basis that they don't have it.

I'm not saying this to convince you or anything, I'm just musing on how different and I guess fundamentally irreconciliable our starting assumptions and frames of reference are. Which is ok.

[Keltest]

Personally I think the scene that is really tripping us up is the Tower scene. In a lot of ways it's almost as subjective as the circus scene, but whereas that really only needs to pass the smell test to be at least plausible, we've been using a lot of hard numbers that are, frankly, based on wild guesses and speculation. In particular that is by far the most common threshold monsters have crashed into while ive been here. While its certainly doing its job as a filter, I have to wonder if its too fine of one.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, it's fine if you disagree, but I will point out that "intended as a clue" and "not of use" contradict each other.

It's certainly subjective in that nothing concrete is done or shown, and we have to make our own judgments about what is going on in the scene, why MitD is drawing the reactions he is despite doing nothing, and why the reactions are so widely varied. But if it's intended as a clue, then we must be able to draw some conclusions from it, making it of use. The subjectivity may mean people draw widely varied conclusions, or simply conclude that the scene supports their already-preferred candidate. But I do think it's significant. (I probably don't need to rehash what I've concluded at this point.)

I'm going to point out that the circus definitely can work as a clue in some cases. The Zodar remains one of my favourite candidates, but it completely fails the circus scene. I don't think there is even a debate to be had about it; it would require Rich to radically change its outer appearance to make it work. Which I personally think might be in the cards, but for the purposes of this thread is just a non-starter.

Egg implanted in a spellcaster, born a green slaad.
Becomes a grey slaad.
Becomes a death slaad.
Becomes a white slaad.
Becomes a black slaad.

"They need to be at least 100 years old" goes in between some of those "becomes", but not sure which ones. It's at least two of those transitions, thoughk, and MitD being in effect child-like through so many centuries is probably my biggest hang-up with the slaad white->black idea. Like, sure, it can work, just like the Zodar can be made to work, but it feels off. And also we can add the evidence from the comic that they become full adults capable of implanting within minutes of birth, so MitD having been for 30 years a bit on the small side for a Large creature (as in, he is shorter than O-Chul, by eye position) is a bit hard to square.

GW

[hroþila]

I'm going to point out that the circus definitely can work as a clue in some cases. The Zodar remains one of my favourite candidates, but it completely fails the circus scene. I don't think there is even a debate to be had about it; it would require Rich to radically change its outer appearance to make it work. Which I personally think might be in the cards, but for the purposes of this thread is just a non-starter.

Yeah I agree, the Zodar is the kind of candidate for which I believe the circus scene remains useful

[hamishspence]

MitD having been for 30 years a bit on the small side for a Large creature (as in, he is shorter than O-Chul, by eye position) is a bit hard to square.

Might depend on how apelike in general shape a slaad is - they're humanoid but very long-armed.

A D&D Ape (based on a gorilla) is only 6.5 ft tall and 300-400 pounds despite being Large. If that height refers to it on its hind legs, then when on all fours, knuckle-walking, its head will be pretty low down.


Most slaad art I've seen shows the Large-type ones (the Medium-size gray is much more humanoid than the red, the blue and the white) with legs bent, body hunched, and arms brushing the ground - looking a bit like a gorilla crossed with a frog. They're still big though despite all that, and I'd agree that the MitD's eye level is a bit on the low side for a Large slaad, even a very hunched one.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Might depend on how apelike in general shape a slaad is - they're humanoid but very long-armed.

A D&D Ape (based on a gorilla) is only 6.5 ft tall and 300-400 pounds despite being Large. If that height refers to it on its hind legs, then when on all fours, knuckle-walking, its head will be pretty low down.


Most slaad art I've seen shows the Large-type ones (the Medium-size gray is much more humanoid than the red, the blue and the white) with legs bent, body hunched, and arms brushing the ground - looking a bit like a gorilla crossed with a frog. They're still big though despite all that, and I'd agree that the MitD's eye level is a bit on the low side for a Large slaad, even a very hunched one.

We don't have to guess, we've seen a slaad. He wasn't hunched. And even sitting in squats, it's too tall for MitD. Are Red slaadi Medium, or Large?

Huh. Looking at it, the eyes are too small for MitD's. MitD has ogre-eyes. Those are beady.

GW

[hamishspence]

We don't have to guess, we've seen a slaad. He wasn't hunched. And even sitting in squats, it's too tall for MitD. Are Red slaadi Medium, or Large?

Red Slaad are Large. If that Medium angel stood up next to the slaad, their eyes would be almost at the same height.

That slaad looks a bit different from the 3.5 D&D one though - itty-bitty arms instead of long ones.

Huh. Looking at it, the eyes are too small for MitD's. MitD has ogre-eyes. Those are beady.

While the pupil of the eye is small, the visible eyeball as a whole is quite large, so, if in the dark the whole eye glowed yellow, it would look big. The two eyes are very far apart though - which seems a bit less MitD-ish.

[Lintecarka]

Sorry for joining the discussion with only limited knowledge of SoD and messing up the timeline of events with my Durokan suggestion, but in the end it was never meant to be too serious. I still believe something is missing with the guesses so far, especially as the main forerunner is a creature that can literally fit pretty much any criteria regarding looks and abilities. My take is also that the MitD should have something that ties it to the plot. Maybe it is a known character or in some way related to one of the major ones.

Which is why I was looking at various templates, which might be able to use a known character and enhance it to MitD levels. I will assume most templates have been discussed pretty extensively, so obviously feel free to let me know if I fail to add something new. My current idea is that the template might be the thing related to the plot, rather than the base creature. Allow me to explain.

We discarded any mentions of Snarl Jr in the past for example, because it would be something Rich invented himself. But maybe this theoretical creature simply uses an existing template that ties it to the Snarl? The Pseudonatural Creature template fits that requirement almost perfectly, potentially originating from "beyond the planes as we know them" as per template description and changing the appearance in a very snarly way as well.

The template grants +22 STR and epic damage reduction, easily explaining the tower scene. It also gets an ability to transform into a mass of tentacles so disturbing people get morale penalties to their attacks against it, so the circus scene is pretty much covered as well. It gets at will dimension door, but that seems like a poor explanation of the escape scene, so this is probably something the base creature has to handle.


What this template most notably does is vastly increasing the number of possible candidates. Pretty much any creature regardless of base level or CR can meet the STR and CR requirements using this template (granting +22 and up to +16 respectively). The template can be applied to any corporeal creature and changes its type to Outsider, which would be a way around immunity to mind-affecting effects granted by some types.
The templated creature can change into a mass of tentacles, which is likely not easily identifyable as the base creature. All comments from the hunters or circus crowd could be about that mass (assuming several creatures got transformed by the Snarls influence over time), which means even creatures that typically speak could be considered for example.


Ideally it should be a well-known creature, as the combination of an obscure creature with a thematically very fitting but still obscure template might not be sufficiently guessable. This is also the reason multiple templates seem unlikely, even though you could eventually explain any scene with a sufficient amount of templates as has been proven before.

I'm also still not entirely discarding the idea that it might be a templated named character. Maybe Soons wife Mijung (known to be a spellcaster) got transformed by the Snarls touch, but of course this is reaching again and not really fitting the many clues about the MitD being monstrous in nature of course.

[Tzardok]

"They need to be at least 100 years old" goes in between some of those "becomes", but not sure which ones. It's at least two of those transitions, thoughk, and MitD being in effect child-like through so many centuries is probably my biggest hang-up with the slaad white->black idea.

GW

Between Green and Grey, between Death and White, and between White and Black. But the first two of those can be skipped by assuming that Rennbuu changed the Green's color.

[Gift Jeraff]

I have solved the answer to the MITD's identity. It is

{scrubbed}

[hamishspence]

That would be a planetar - "nearly nine feet tall and weighs about 500 pounds" according to the MM - they're usually bald and green, whereas "regular" devas tend to be shown with head hair in these strips, and closer to blue than green.

[Doug Lampert]

Personally I think the scene that is really tripping us up is the Tower scene. In a lot of ways it's almost as subjective as the circus scene, but whereas that really only needs to pass the smell test to be at least plausible, we've been using a lot of hard numbers that are, frankly, based on wild guesses and speculation. In particular that is by far the most common threshold monsters have crashed into while ive been here. While its certainly doing its job as a filter, I have to wonder if its too fine of one.

A half-orc barbarian 11/fighter 2 with not a single buff or item can have 29 strength. I assume without proof that Thog started with maximum strength and thus is capable of this. Thog is a dungeon crasher per word of Rich. This is a special power that makes him MORE capable of knocking people through scenery.

Thog does not throw people through walls and onward for miles when trying to hit lightly. Ergo, I consider 29 strength is grossly inadequate for the Tower Scene, and will argue vigorously against strength as an explanation unless it includes more than 29 strength (hint: 30 is the lowest value greater than 29).

It's highly questionable if huge would fit under the umbrella, if you want more than huge then I think that you are trying to argue that Rich took away two or more size categories. Doing this without any adjustment at all to strength strikes me as completely unreasonable, and 8 per category is the most likely adjustment.

Basically, I think that the strength standard is almost certainly far too low for what we see (again assuming the tower to be a demonstration of strength), and if the earthquake is strength then it's even worse. But I have voted against higher standards because we want the absolute minimum that will possibly work, I don't think Rich said, "Wow, this monster is exactly as strong as Thog with a level 2 spell buffing him if Thog only put a 15 into his initial strength, I'll just have him try to hit lightly and accidently punch a horse through a wall to show how massively overpowering he is," but in fact if we're dealing with something on the edge of the strength standard, then that's basically what we're assuming that Rich did.

[Tubercular Ox]

I guess I also disagree about the Circus scene. In my opinion, while it is likely to be intended as a clue about the identity of the MitD, it is inherently too subjective to be of much use in the guessing game

Rich said he wanted the story to make sense for people who weren't interested in the guessing game, which means some clues are going to lead a dual life, contributing both to the story and the guessing game.

I'm pretty sure the Circus Scene is one of those clues. I think the appearance of the Monster in the Dark at the reveal is going to do more than just end the guessing game, it's going to make the Circus Scene meaningful for people who aren't following the guessing game.

Personally I think the scene that is really tripping us up is the Tower scene. In a lot of ways it's almost as subjective as the circus scene, but whereas that really only needs to pass the smell test to be at least plausible, we've been using a lot of hard numbers that are, frankly, based on wild guesses and speculation. In particular that is by far the most common threshold monsters have crashed into while ive been here. While its certainly doing its job as a filter, I have to wonder if its too fine of one.

I think Xykon is going to order the Monster in the Dark to reveal itself and attack the party, but O-Chul is going to be in the party, so it's going to reveal itself and use its previously-established lightest hit on one of the characters. This would show us how it generated the big hit.

I also think there's evidence that a moderately optimized human character can create 400' of knockback with a Diminutive target, but I don't know how useful that is.

[Metastachydium]

We don't have to guess, we've seen a slaad. He wasn't hunched. And even sitting in squats, it's too tall for MitD. Are Red slaadi Medium, or Large?

Huh. Looking at it, the eyes are too small for MitD's. MitD has ogre-eyes. Those are beady.

Well, wow. That's one real pile of flawed assumptions! Where should I even start? Let's start at the beginning, safest that way: no. We have seen a Slaad, but that doesn't mean "we don't have to guess".

That is a Red Slaad. A Red Slaad looks somewhat like a Blue Slaad, notably different from a Mud or a Green, even more different from a Death Slaad, and only somewhat similar to a White/Black. Notably, on their only official art that I'm aware of, White/Blacks are very, very hunched, their head hanging forward and rather low. The MM and Savage Species art for Red Slaadi show creatures standing basically eresct.

You seem to think that there's a thing called "Slaad" which comes in a few funky colours. That's… Just not true.

But in all those cases you can see the creature, too. If you take away the dialog you still have posture to work with.

The MitD has nothing at all for us to go on. If you take away the eyes, how would you visually depict emotion from a black field?

I also gave… Apparently not you, then, but someone else two whole pages of the Order emoting while fuly invisible.

I am under the impression that the Protean maintains its default size and just randomly sprouts parts from different creatures, unless it is trying to maintain a specific part or overall form.

The rule text is explicit about how their shapeshifting lets them go all the way up to Colossal and all the way down to Fine, which is not something it describes as a mechanism separate from the free action fleshboiling it's got going all the time.

OK then. He is tired and lazy all the time; it could be from the effort from using that action.

All the time is an oiverstatement, I'd say.

There is a gap, but as I've said often enough before, I find a number of the explanations that have been proposed plausible enough, that I am comfortable there will be a plausible explanation if needed. And again, many of these explanations don't even require MitD to be actively holding a face; it's a trick of the "camera" or of the magical darkness or what have you.

Again, nothing before strip #100 "contradicts the truth of what he is." We've already established that Rich uses artistic license to better convey facial expressions and emotions; all he has to do is come up with a justification for why MitD's eyes always appear in the same place-- a number of which have been proposed here-- and he can proceed. And we've established it's possible for a Protean to do this, which is all that really matters.

And I continue to have difficulty imagining how that could end up even remotely satisfying. "Maintains a face all the time" is possible, and occasionally plausible, if suspect and odd fromk where I stand. I'll give you that. "He has eyes because he doesn't have eyes" just… Isn't.

I would not phrase it as "ignoring defining features." I would phrase it as "hiding them in the darkness," and I do, in fact, believe that hiding the most defining features of MitD's species in the darkness is not just not a cheat, but is actually pretty important so as not to give away the reveal early, whatever the creature is.

Nah. That's portly young mute female Sean COnnery/Deadpool 2, the big Brad Pitt feature all the way. It'd be trolling the audience. Not impossible, but trolling. So long as there are equally possible explanations (such as the Slaad, for me at least) that don't need any of that, I'll reject that notion (and substitute my own!!).

The Death Worm is a pretty minor character. It's probably more important to him to have a way to portray the expressions and emotions of a character who is going to be a part of the story until or nearly until the very end more accurately. From Rich's perspective, I'm not sure how he's supposed to accurately convey MitD's expressions if his eyes are constantly moving around or changing in number.

1. LWD is not the only example. And not the biggest one either; that's Tarquin and his various helmets.
2. Accurately conveying expressions has nothing to do with the size, colour or position of the eyes in the comic. Four red eyes at ground level or one green eye high up do the job equally well. I don't follow your point there.

I should be clear that I'm not all that familiar with the details of the Slaad, and it's unfortunately not publicly available to my knowledge, so I'm going with what has already been written in these threads.

I can swear by my honour that I'm not trying to deceive you, if need be, and that, once more,
a. Whites come from Greens;
b. Greens are spawned by Reds or Blues;
c. Whites are Large; and
d. Reds and Blues can get Huge.

Also, "spawning as parenthood" is in the comic, available online and for free.

The maturing differently thing is true. According to the FBS post, though, the Slaads that fit would be at least the fourth evolutionary stage for the MitD, which makes it harder for me to conceive as "juvenile" (but I don't know how many stages of evolution it goes through in total or how long it lives).

It can be seen as an issue, yes, but it's not impossible. And that's all that matters, eh? (Also, MitD's changing behaviour in terms of appetite and whatnot from late is actually the most fitting if he is a Slaad nearing a change into a new type.)

I don't think it does go the same. Or at least, based on the combination of Proteans generally only speaking an ever-evolving language only other Proteans can understand, even though they can speak Common, and the fact that Proteans generally regard non-shapeshifting creatures with disdain, is what makes the SBGH surprised. Normally, a Protean wouldn't deign to talk to them, and certainly not in their own language. As far as I know, Slaadi don't have either of those two characteristics, so it's probably not nearly as surprising that one would talk or in Common (hey, the one we've seen is doing just that).

I reread the Protean's fluff blurb to be sure. Nowhere does it say that they "generally only" speak their own language. It is merely a first language for them, the same way as Slaad is the first language for a Slaad. And a Protean can speak Common. It can speak any language.

Mimics aren't Proteans, though. Not at all. I think there is a significant difference between "portraying a creature with some similar powers" and "portraying the exact creature."

Like I said to Grey Wolf, a Red Slaad and a White Slaad are the same class of creature. By no means are they the exact same creature, not anymore than (to beat a dead horse (eat stick, herbivore!!)) a Glabrezu is a Dretch or Quasit.

I mean, that's what "like" means; "having the same characteristics or qualities as; similar to." I don't think it's projecting.

That's the thing there. A toad the size of a house with teeth is not like anything I've ever seen, because toads don't grow that big and don't have teeth. I don't think taking a common hyperbole literally will take us very far anyhow.

Conversely, a Protean also has, by neccessity, features from other creatures that are recognisable as such. That doesn't mean "I've never seen anything like that" is not the perfect way of describing it.

The Circus scene is not one where MitD's powers or actions are well-defined, so of course it has to be up to interpretation to a certain degree what he is or what happens while he's standing still and doing nothing that would cause such reactions. I think a Protean explains those reactions, both the wide variety of them and several of them in particular, better than anything else. A learned wizard might have never seen anything like it because there is nothing like it. And as I said earlier on this page, I don't think the goblin kids would be so excited to keep going back to see MitD if they just saw the same thing every time.

Well, I think otherwise. Namely,
1. a faintly luminous, pristine white being of an almost crystalline quality is something I could see as beautiful;
2. frogs are up there with arthropods and rodents among the creatures that get the most visceral emotions from lots of people,
3. even when they aren't massively oversized and in possession of anatomical features they absolutely don't have any business possessing.
4. In the meantime, "it looks somewhat like it could be one of several kinds of creatures that I'm aware of, but it quite uncannily isn't any single one of those and I Don't understand how" is as good an explanation as any for the robed caster type's reaction; and
5. I can get excited about the little redstarts that live next doors during the summers whenever I see them, even though they are the exact same birdies every time, thank you very much.
6. Not that "they like MitD, whatever he is, because he looks cool and is friendly to them, personally" which we are shown isn't a better explanation than "they keep coming because the scenery changes; if that stopped, they'd stop coming".

Not really. From its page:



So even if MitD shifted into the thing he thought would hit Miko and Windstriker as lightly as possible, he would still be using the Protean's base attack bonus and Strength modifier. (The Protean has +33 for the base attack and 53 strength.)

I think I've presented the numbers before, but I appreciate your humouring me by going through the wole case, so you definitely deserve the courtesy of my giving them once more:
–the Protean can mimic the features of creatures it sees;
–therefore, it can grow new appendages granting new attack modes;
–including secondary attacks;
–which means that Protean!MitD should be able to grow, say, Demon Roach legs;
–and make unarmed strikes with them,
–as a secondary attack if he waives/wastes his slams first.

Due to the size of the appendage, and the secondary effect, that would mean it could, unlike any other proposed creature, deal 1+STR/2, i.e. 1+11 nonlethal damage to an opponent.

Yes, I don't know where to go from here. The Protean is so unusual and what it does even while not moving is so bizarre that I think it easily explains the wide variety of reactions.

Granted, of course.

It's not really an upgrade on the "tainted with chaos at the time of their race's creation" Protean, though. Just similar.

You didn't ask for an upgrade. You asked for a good story reason and said the candidates other than the Protean don't have one. I presented one for the Slaad.

The other thing about the story reason is, I'm thinking about some of the things Rich has said about storytelling that I've referenced in this post: specifically, storytelling as a means to communicate ideas and messages, and applicability to the real world. I don't think being an exemplar of Chaos that bonds with a human has much applicability to the real world, whereas finding the will to change and be whoever you want to be does. The Slaad grows and changes, but just into another Slaad, not into whatever it wants to be. And while I don't know the process of Slaadi evolution, I also thus have no information that the change has to do with willing itself to change. Whereas the Protean clearly does have to will itself to change into what it wants to change into-- and I think for that reason it best represents the "finding the will to change and not be what people expect or tell you you are" of MitD's story.

By the same token, you could say that "just be a boiling tide of flesh" is not rally a well applicable moral, whereas "even if one is supposed to be born as the so-called embodiment of something bad, that's not a determination: everyone has a choice and room for growth" (i.e. using the nature of exemplars as extreme instances of "always alignment" as a tool to show that there is no such thing as "always alignment") is.

I left out a couple of people, I now realize. Most notably Oona, and I'm thinking of her "So small, though. But will grow in time!" comment. Does the Slaad grow in size at its next stage of evolution? (What stage are we even at?)

Yes, Black is HUge and White can advance into Huge without turning Black.

I'm also thinking about her comments in the same panel about how MitD looks like a spicy-food nightmare, which I don't think really describes something that looks roughly like a giant toad. Between that and the Circus scene, I'm really leaning toward those moments as indicators that MitD is something that appears truly bizarre, not just monstrous.

1. May you be chased by many a giant, clawed, toothy, crystalline white toadlike monstrosity in your perfectly normal dreams!

2. She specifically mentions Remorhaz kebab, the Remorhaz being a giant, clawed, toothy, crystalline white centipede. I'm nost saying it's aliens a clue, but… Why not, actually? See my comment above on arthropods and batrachiates.

EDIT: Anyway, I'm not even trying to dismantle or disprove your case at this point. You have work in it and that shows. I'm merely trying to use what I perceive to be the methodology you used to reach your own conclusions to see what it gives us if applied to another candidate which I happen to prefer. And to be honest, I'm quite satisfied with the resulting alternative take.

[hamishspence]

Based on that Oona pic, I see the MitD's eyes are noticeably bigger, and noticeably further apart, than hers. Perhaps a hint in the "Large rather than Medium" direction?

[Tubercular Ox]

Based on that Oona pic, I see the MitD's eyes are noticeably bigger, and noticeably further apart, than hers. Perhaps a hint in the "Large rather than Medium" direction?

Horses are Large and long, instead of tall like Ogres. Rich draws them funny, so they'd definitely fit in the box, and probably under the umbrella. Rich is probably free to draw the Monster in the Dark at the limit of each and get away with it. Proteans are Large, but of course their shapeshifting powers let them ignore clues when those clues could be used to disqualify other monsters instead.

[Keltest]

D&D size categories are generally, but not universally, based on how much of a 5x5x5 or 10x10x10 or 15x15x15 etc... cube they fill up rather than being based on a single dimension. Something can be Huge and two feet tall if its got enough horizontal size.

[b_jonas]

Yes, but we've also seen another red slaad in #68 last panel, and that one is tiny. Like Haley says, this is a world with literal flesh-and-blood demons, so don't be too quick to dismiss those shoulder angels/demons etc as figments of Elan's imagination.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

the main forerunner is a creature that can literally fit pretty much any criteria regarding looks and abilities

No it does not. A protean cannot look like anything but a protean, and it can only copy Ex abilities.

GW

[Emberlily]

Yes, but we've also seen another red slaad in #68 last panel, and that one is tiny. Like Haley says, this is a world with literal flesh-and-blood demons, so don't be too quick to dismiss those shoulder angels/demons etc as figments of Elan's imagination.

The cubic modron we see in Redcloak's ad-supported summoning are notably bigger than Elan's shoulder modron, so I don't think we can use the size of the shoulder alignment beings as any meaningful metric

[Sky_Schemer]

"They need to be at least 100 years old" goes in between some of those "becomes", but not sure which ones. It's at least two of those transitions, thoughk, and MitD being in effect child-like through so many centuries is probably my biggest hang-up with the slaad white->black idea.

OTOH, we have this dialog from the MitD in #1267:

"Dude, I can't remember whether or not I had a name, much less what it was."

That word "had" seems pretty important and very deliberate. Just because the MitD is child-like that doesn't mean they are a literal child. And this quote would support that they have been around a long time. And possibly in more than one form.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

OTOH, we have this dialog from the MitD in #1267:

"Dude, I can't remember whether or not I had a name, much less what it was."

That word "had" seems pretty important and very deliberate. Just because the MitD is child-like that doesn't mean they are a literal child. And this quote would support that they have been around a long time. And possibly in more than one form.

That MitD has been around a long time is fine. There are plenty of long-lived creatures that might have extended childhoods. Elves, for one. But it's a problem for slaadi, who canonically are capable of "growing up" and are ready to implant their own "babies" within minutes of "birth". A species who are reproduction-capable within minutes of their own chest-burst does not mesh with MitD's quasi-adolescency after 30+ years. At least not to me; as I was hopefully clear about, that is my own vibes.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

Personally I do think the circus scene will make a lot of sense in retrospect, I just think it's too subjective to rule out most candidates. Other big scenes rely on the MitD doing something, the circus scene relies on other characters having subjective reactions to the MitD. Those characters probably have a very good reason to react the way they do, but they don't need to. We're not dealing with the objective reality of the MitD but with how he's perceived by others (or rather, with the effect he has on others, but even if there's mechanical reasons for that effect it's still mediated by others, it's not just about the MitD).

I mean, this is all true. I am applying my own judgment to the scene, of course.

I believe the circus scene is of limited use at the moment for the purposes of this thread because every major candidate has flaws that are way more concrete and objective (thus requiring inherently more far-fetched explanations) than anything that can be said against a candidate that doesn't have a great explanation for the circus scene. For example, that the uvuudaum looks repulsive but has high charisma and thus can explain the circus scene pretty well is great and all, but the lack of eyes and mouth is (IMO) a more objective deal-breaker that could never be offset by the reactions of random circus-goers who may conceivably have their own subjective reasons to find the MitD uglier and/or more fascinating than we'd expect. Most candidates are monsters, and monsters usually look weird.

In my view, having a great explanation for the circus scene is kinda like having Wish for the escape scene: it's ideal, but I can't discard candidates on the basis that they don't have it.

I wouldn't completely discard a candidate based on the circus scene alone, but I have been trying to figure out what makes the most sense for it, and several other of the subjective measurements (i.e. other characters observing the MitD and things like that). I think that's the point we're at now, with only a few species even reasonably fitting by the rules.

the main forerunner is a creature that can literally fit pretty much any criteria regarding looks and abilities.

No it does not. A protean cannot look like anything but a protean, and it can only copy Ex abilities.

GW

Apparently the fact that I just brought this up still isn't enough to dissuade people from trying to argue it.

2. She specifically mentions Remorhaz kebab, the Remorhaz being a giant, clawed, toothy, crystalline white centipede. I'm nost saying it's aliens a clue, but… Why not, actually? See my comment above on arthropods and batrachiates.

She's not saying he looks like a Remorhaz, though. She's saying he looks like something you'd see in a bad dream after eating some kind of very spicy, unusual food. (I dunno what would be a good real-world equivalent... spicy fried alligator?)

"They need to be at least 100 years old" goes in between some of those "becomes", but not sure which ones. It's at least two of those transitions, thoughk, and MitD being in effect child-like through so many centuries is probably my biggest hang-up with the slaad white->black idea. Like, sure, it can work, just like the Zodar can be made to work, but it feels off. And also we can add the evidence from the comic that they become full adults capable of implanting within minutes of birth, so MitD having been for 30 years a bit on the small side for a Large creature (as in, he is shorter than O-Chul, by eye position) is a bit hard to square.

GW

That MitD has been around a long time is fine. There are plenty of long-lived creatures that might have extended childhoods. Elves, for one. But it's a problem for slaadi, who canonically are capable of "growing up" and are ready to implant their own "babies" within minutes of "birth". A species who are reproduction-capable within minutes of their own chest-burst does not mesh with MitD's quasi-adolescency after 30+ years. At least not to me; as I was hopefully clear about, that is my own vibes.

Grey Wolf

Yeah, even though my knowledge is limited (would really help if I had access to the character entry for the Slaad), I kinda find this hard to square too.

I know there's more to get to, but I'm getting ready to travel today so I likely won't have time. Or for a few days. Which I'm sure will cause great dismay in all the posters in this thread.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

(I dunno what would be a good real-world equivalent... spicy fried alligator?)

I understand it to be a reference to the (probably entirely urban legend) idea that if you eat kebab late at night, you get nightmares. Tv tropes has it as "acid-reflux nightmare".

GW

[Ruck]

I understand it to be a reference to the (probably entirely urban legend) idea that if you eat kebab late at night, you get nightmares. Tv tropes has it as "acid-reflux nightmare".

GW

Yeah, I'm familiar with the broader concept. I was just trying to pick a similar unusual animal to eat (I'm assuming remorhaz would be unusual as a food item).

[Peelee]

I understand it to be a reference to the (probably entirely urban legend) idea that if you eat kebab late at night, you get nightmares.

Not living in a kebab-heavy part of the world, I've neger heard of this before but i love it. If only because of how hyper-specific it sounds.

[Kish]

I think Xykon is going to order the Monster in the Dark to reveal itself and attack the party, but O-Chul is going to be in the party, so it's going to reveal itself and use its previously-established lightest hit on one of the characters. This would show us how it generated the big hit.

If, and only if, said "generation" isn't just, you know, hitting. However that's actually not my big objection here.

200 gold says the described sequence of events--Xykon sees a party that includes O-Chul, Xykon orders the creature in the darkness to attack it, and the creature in the darkness actually bothers with an attempt at literal compliance rather than either refusing or playing an impromptu game of who can hit the hardest with Xykon--is not going to happen.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not living in a kebab-heavy part of the world, I've neger heard of this before but i love it. If only because of how hyper-specific it sounds.

It was the British 3am-and-I'm-drunk food of choice back 20 years ago when I was there, surrounded by idiots who got drunk and peckish at 3 am. So yeah, probably really specific.

GW