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Thread: Getting wishes from an Efreeti
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2024-04-12, 05:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Getting wishes from an Efreeti
So let me get it right:
to get a Wish from an Efreeti the safe way you use Planar Ally, pay and xp cost of 250 xp and gift the genie an object worth 1000 gp, or you take a shortcut with Planar Binding, pay nothing but risk to fail - and the genie will probably try to subvert the wish. I got it right?
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2024-04-12, 05:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting wishes from an Efreeti
That is actually not factually correct. The DM decides what is a reasonable request. Generally paying market is probably reasonable depending on what you're likely to do with your Wish but the DM has COMPLETE control over that. Unless you know your DM you can't actually say what would be allowed here.
The reason is this:
Originally Posted by SRD
Edit: Also there's no guarantee that even paying would encourage it not to twist your wish. They're not good beings.Last edited by AMFV; 2024-04-12 at 05:31 AM.
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2024-04-12, 06:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting wishes from an Efreeti
It's worth noting that Planar Ally doesn't just give you a commandable efreeti either:
By casting this spell, you request your deity to send you an elemental or outsider (of 6 HD or less) of the deity’s choice. If you serve no particular deity, the spell is a general plea answered by a creature sharing your philosophical alignment. If you know an individual creature’s name, you may request that individual by speaking the name during the spell (though you might get a different creature anyway).Creator of the LA-assignment thread.
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2024-04-12, 06:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting wishes from an Efreeti
So what is the safest and cheapest way to get those wishes by RAW, beside buying Wishes scrolls?
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2024-04-12, 06:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting wishes from an Efreeti
I like to draw on lore from older editions where 3.x remains silent, and because of that I have to emphatically support this. According to Secrets of the Lamp (a 2e sourcebook and the only sourcebook on genies in all editions), efreets get audited by the Grand Sultan's officials after granting wishes and get punished if it is determined that they didn't put enough effort into screwing over the mortal. They are governmentally mandated to be malicious genies.
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2024-04-12, 07:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting wishes from an Efreeti
The safest way is to use planar binding to call a noble djinni, which has the same wish-granting ability as an efreeti but is chaotic good aligned. The only wrinkle is that noble djinn might not be a separate kind of creature from regular djinn, and thus can't be specifically called. However, if your DM rules that to be the case, you can simply call a djinni, hope to get a noble, and if you don't have the normal djinni tell you the name of a noble djinni, ideally one who's willing to sell its wishes to mortals. This technique is also cheap in terms of money expended, though it might require multiple castings of magic circle and planar binding, so it's not the cheapest in terms of spell slot expenditure.
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2024-04-12, 07:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting wishes from an Efreeti
I found nothing on that issue but, wouldn't be logical to contact an entity through communication spells and try to get an arrangement before calling/conjuring it?
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2024-04-12, 08:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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2024-04-12, 11:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting wishes from an Efreeti
Be an outsider with LA +0 (such as having the Otherworldly feat), have a devoted familiar, take the Supernatural Transformation (3 Wishes) feat, polymorph into the appropriate genie type, have your familiar make your wishes for you, and...
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2024-04-12, 11:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting wishes from an Efreeti
Be an outsider with LA +0 (such as having the Otherworldly feat), have a devoted familiar or psicrystal, take the Supernatural Transformation (Wish) feat, polymorph or metamorphosis into the appropriate genie type, find a way to get [Su]s of the things you turn into (such as Assume Supernatural Ability or Metamorphic Transfer), have your familiar or psicrystal make your wishes for you, and...
Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2024-04-12 at 11:14 AM.
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2024-04-13, 03:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting wishes from an Efreeti
This is such backward logic. You can't take Supernatural transformation for an SLA you don't have, and you can't take assume supernatural ability or metamorphic transfer for an Su ability that the monster you're transforming into doesn't have. You're trying to put the cart before the horse there, twice
Either have a DM that's willing to let you get easy, free, early game wishes, or hit level 17 and cast it yourself.
There's no other option. If your DM doesn't want you to have access to early and easy wishes, there is no "but the rules say I can!" answer, they all involve DM cooperation. Even buiying a wish scroll requires the DM to allow said scroll to be buyable in the first place.Last edited by Crake; 2024-04-13 at 03:37 AM.
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2024-04-13, 04:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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2024-04-13, 08:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting wishes from an Efreeti
Either have a DM that's willing to let you get easy, free, early game wishes, or hit level 17 and cast it yourself.
There's no other option. If your DM doesn't want you to have access to early and easy wishes, there is no "but the rules say I can!" answer, they all involve DM cooperation. Even buiying a wish scroll requires the DM to allow said scroll to be buyable in the first place.
Also assume vacuum and spherical cows.
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2024-04-13, 08:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting wishes from an Efreeti
There are no rules for the Quasielemental Plane of Vacuum in 3.x. Instructions unclear; try again.
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2024-04-13, 09:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting wishes from an Efreeti
As always, under these conditions: Pun-pun.
But ask yourself: why though? No game actually runs under those conditions. Even if you're playing a completely solo player-as-dm-and-PC game, you wouldn't run things like that, because it would just be akin to turning on godmode and getting bored in 5 minutes when you mary sue your way through everything.World of Madius wiki - My personal campaign setting, including my homebrew Optional Gestalt/LA rules.
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2024-04-13, 11:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting wishes from an Efreeti
That's not even possible. The game just breaks. I use Planar Binding, what requests are considered "unreasonable"? Without somebody to say what requests are considered unreasonable the game just breaks. Somebody has to be there to make that call. Fortunately the game is designed with such a person present.
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2024-04-13, 12:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-04-14, 04:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting wishes from an Efreeti
As has been pointed out, the "compel service" part of Planar Binding is somewhat GM-dependent. However, Planar Binding also brings the creature there physically. At which point (or by using Plane Shift and finding the genie in question) you have at least two alternatives:
Fair Dealing
For this, I'd go with a Noble Djinn instead of an Efreet, but YMMV. If you're a Wizard 11+ with any amount of optimization, you're easily qualifying as a useful ally. So make a deal. You'll have to pay for the wishes, but (since they're not paying anything to cast them) a bulk rate should be viable, and/or providing mercenary / magical-consulting services in lieu of gold.
Force
Knock out, kidnap, and mind-control an Efreet. Now there's no wish twisting, because they're your puppet that does what you say. And not just for one set of wishes either, because why let them go? Is this evil? Yeah, probably (doing it to another evil creature like an Efreet may put you lower priority on Paladin hit lists, at least). Will the Efreet want to kill you? Definitely. Will they succeed? Depends on how many friends they have and how good your defenses are.
Now, as regards things like "Efreet have unlimited wishes (by utilizing mortal 'wishing slaves')! WTF are you going to offer them they would care about? And if you try to go against them, you'll get crushed like a bug!" -
Well, yes if that's the case these won't work. But also, they'll be ruling all the planes (or else wiped out as too big a threat), so the setting will be very different. I think for a setting other than "Efreet rule thewavesplanes" we have to assume they truly can't benefit from their own wishes.Last edited by icefractal; 2024-04-14 at 04:36 AM.
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2024-04-14, 04:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting wishes from an Efreeti
Congratulations, you just picked a fight with the Grand Sultan and the whole Empire of Efreet.
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2024-04-14, 04:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting wishes from an Efreeti
Perhaps so, but ...
People do manage to murder citizens of powerful nations and get away with it. If you publicize yourself as "Bob the Efreet Trapper" then yeah, war is on. But if all anyone knows is that Fred the Efreet disappeared a few days ago, with no leads, then it's going to depend on whether Fred has enough friends with enough resources to find out what happened and track you down.
Again, assuming the Efreet are not ruling the entire multiverse with their wishes, as (not) seen in most D&D settings.
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2024-04-14, 07:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting wishes from an Efreeti
This again requires DM adjudication though. And we're back to where we started.
Originally Posted by Famous Old Story
What method of mind control are you using? You can say "mind control" but that's not a spell in the game nor is it a game mechanic, and most of the spells that explicitly control an outsider directly are around the same level as Wish.
We could actually apply that pretty sound reasoning to the whole deal.My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2024-04-14, 08:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting wishes from an Efreeti
Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
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2024-04-14, 05:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting wishes from an Efreeti
Adjudicating a wish is always judgment-dependent, and so it always requires the DM's approval.
The only safe way to get wishes is to take the wishes when the DM intends for you to have them, and then to make the kind of wishes that the DM approves. You cannot force safe wishes on a DM against her will.
There is a legal maxim: Any lawyer knows the law. A good lawyer knows the exceptions. A great lawyer knows the judge.
Similarly, any player knows the rules. A good player knows fantasy literature. A great player knows the DM.
If you want safe wishes, then step one is to find out how the DM handles wishes. And there is no step two until you've spent a lot of time and focus on step one.
Really -- a PC making a wish through a djinn or efreet is asking a supremely proud and powerful being to do something for you, against his will. You are simulating it by ... asking a supremely proud and powerful being to do something for you, against her will.
Do not attempt to "force" a safe wish from a DM. It can't be done.
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2024-04-14, 06:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-04-14, 08:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting wishes from an Efreeti
I guess it depends on when you encounter them. I think genies (and wish-granting demons) work best as something for fairly low-level PCs to encounter. When you're like 3rd level, an Efreet is an immensely scary force who can just end you on the spot if you **** around. And even the "safe" Wishes are far beyond what you could reasonably get otherwise.
By the time you're casting Planar Binding though, they're more like a peer. Who you might later surpass. After all, weren't all those djinn bound inside lamps by a mortal, back in the stories? I think that at higher levels, to get that same "tangling with powers beyond your comprehension" feeling, you really need "beyond normal stats" beings offering "beyond the safe uses" type of Wishes.Last edited by icefractal; 2024-04-14 at 08:19 PM.
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2024-04-14, 09:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting wishes from an Efreeti
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2024-04-15, 02:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting wishes from an Efreeti
Given that we all know different DMs are different, perhaps it would help if we each explained how we adjudicate wishes in our own worlds.
Here's mine, from my "Rules for DMs" document.
Spoiler: Jay R's approach to wishes52. Wishes ought to be a social contract between the players and the DM. Don’t try to screw up the game, and I won’t try to screw up your character.
a. If a game system has clear, unambiguous limits for wishes, and a wish falls within the limits, then it should work as intended.
b. Wishes should rarely go wrong.
i. The best way for a wish to fail is to have no meaningful effect at all. Wasting a wish is well-attested in fantasy literature. It doesn’t hurt the game or the PC.
ii. When a wish actually goes bad, it should not cripple or destroy the PC, but at worst put the character in a difficult and threatening situation. Difficult and threatening situations are a DM’s stock in trade.
iii. When a wish has an actual negative effect on a PC, it should be a challenging obstacle, not a character-destroying tragedy. And it should end before it stops being challenging and becomes merely a boring weakness.
c. There is no sentient entity processing the wish (other than the DM). It is a pure magical effect – akin to programming a computer. There is neither benevolence nor malevolence involved. The risk of a wish is the same as the risk of a car or a power saw; it goes where you steer it, not where you intended to steer it.
i. There will be a very few malevolent exceptions to this. Efreeti can be malevolent because they are phrasing the actual wish.
ii. But after the wish has been phrased, it remains a pure magical effect with no sentient entity processing the wish.
d. Unless it will screw up the game, the DM should follow the exact wording of the wish. This is usually, but not always, the same as the intent.
i. Following the exact wording of the wish does not mean abusing homonyms. If they ask for an extra feat, they don’t get extra feet.
ii. Following the exact meaning of the wish does not mean a bizarre, unlikely meaning. It means the most reasonable meaning of those exact words.
iii. If it took you more than a few seconds to come up with that interpretation, then it isn’t the obvious meaning of those words.
e. A wish will be fulfilled in the simplest manner possible. If a player wishes to have the only sword in the world, it is easier for the magic to put him and his sword on a separate world than to find and destroy every other sword on the primary gameworld.
f. An unselfish wish is always much safer. Wish for bumper crops near the village, or for the plague to end, and the magic flows much more smoothly.
g. A wish grants one effect. If the PC wishes for a sword and a shield, then he gets a sword. The shield is another wish. If he has two wishes, he gets the first two effects requested. If he wishes to travel to another continent to be introduced to the king and marry the princess, then he gets the travel and to meet the king, and his wishes are done.
i. Among other things, this means that long contract-like texts of legalese won’t work. Only the first clause is enacted.
h. The primary principle remains this: Don’t try to screw up the game, and I won’t try to screw up your character.
These rules were written for myself, for the way I run games. I am not saying that anybody else “should” run a game this way. These rules exist to help me be consistent, and so my players can know what to expect.
Anybody else is free to use them as guidelines, to modify them, to use some but not others, or to ignore them altogether, as seems best to you. Not everybody agrees on how to run a game, and there's nothing wrong with that.
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2024-04-15, 03:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting wishes from an Efreeti
Those rules are fine. The problem is that there IS a middle man when using another creature to grant your wish. As there is a middle man casting the wish for you, then there is very much room for shenanigans being involved. If a player is going to abuse mechanics for unlimited free wishes, so can any other creature in the game. It's completely possible for that efreeti that you mistreated to call in a favor from another efreeti that they were owed and have a wish cast to geas the character to have their wishes undone and give away their wealth.
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2024-04-15, 03:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting wishes from an Efreeti
I think this reasoning could be applied to the entire subject of efreeti wishes - if the campaign setting isn't ruled by efreeti, wizards making bulk wishes, or something powerful enough to check the other two, why not? It makes more sense to work backward from there and imagine there must be a reason it doesn't work than assume the PCs are the first people in history to come up with the idea.
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2024-04-15, 07:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting wishes from an Efreeti
To be fair, genies can't actually grant other genies wishes by the book. The common point of all these wish schemes is that you can compel the creature to grant your wish for free or by giving them back what you stole (their freedom) or what they still have (their life); or you some how gain the 24 hour recharge per day uses of creature abilities when you shapeshift or gain their abilities for yourself when you take on the form for less than 24 hours. It just logically makes sense that if those sources don't specifically permit you to gain full per day usage, then you go from 0 uses to 0 uses because that's how the rules are supposed to work. You gain the ability, but not the per day resource.
These are easily shut down by them being "unreasonable" interpretations of the rules.Last edited by Darg; 2024-04-15 at 07:05 PM.