Psycarnum Blaster

[Auerkan]

Over a course of a chain of three optimization docs I cobbled together from personal desire, I got a drive to optimize Psycarnum Blade feat.

Any mind blade optimization seems to lead to Soulbow, far as my search went.

Result is Human Incarnate 3 / Soulknife 2 / Soulbow 10 / X 5
Starting abilities(25 pb): Str 8 Dex 13 Con 10 Int 10 Wis 18 Cha 8; Final Wis 34

Feats: Point Blank Shot (1), Zen Archery (3), Psycarnum Blade(6), Psionic Meditation(9)
Soulbow bonus feats(assuming no additional list): Precise Shot, Psionic Shot+Greater, Rapid Shot, Far Shot

Mind Arrow configuration: +2 Lucky Collision

However, a problem: GPS(4d6 extra damage) competes with PCB(essentia*1d6 extra damage) for focus, which is still at least Move action.
One solution is Hustle spam, which exchanges swift and 3/5 pp for move.

At a table that is up to use expendables freely, Evader Psicrown could be used, at 28500/400*5=356.25gp per use.

Alternative is going at PsyWar 3-5, which provides access to power(at 3pp) and 23/31/39 pp reserve.
In fact, Earth Power could be added to make it cheaper, with round routine looking as: Move(focus), Hustle(3-1=2 pp), Move(focus), Attack

Final attack bonus is +12(BAB at PsyWar 5) +1(Weapon Focus) +2(enhancement) +12(Wis mod) = +27, roll twice for Lucky; Final damage 1d6+4d6+4d6+19(50.5 avg). This can be supported for 19.5 attacks before needing a recharge.
When out of Hustle, he can attack at +27 for 5d6+19(36.5 avg). Checking a creature finder for CR 20 creatures and calculating average gives 35.00(at 15 creatures) so we have 57.75% to hit.
Alternatively he can full attack with Hustle, discarding use of GPS and 4d6(14) damage, at +25/25/20/15.

~~~

What are possible routes of improvement?

EDIT before I go to sleep: Actually its better to go PsyWar instead of Incarnate, and provide Essentia with Essentia Helm. PsyWar 8 / Soulknife 2 / Soulbow 10 has 69pp and decent amount of bonus feats.

[pabelfly]

You can take Improved Essentia Capacity for a +1 to Essentia capacity to feats, so you can deal up to 5d6 damage upon expending your psionic focus.

However, I'm wondering if the juice is worth the squeeze. You need 5 essentia for this to work (so five levels of Incarnate, less if you take an Incarnum race), two Incarnum feats, and Psionic Meditation (to become focused as a move action). Even if you were able to psionically focus every round and get a full attack off, you only doing an extra 5d6 damage per round, which is a piddling amount by level 20 standards.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm going to agree that the juice is not worth the squeeze. There are far more weak/bad feats, classes, spells, items, and other game mechanics than there ar good/viable ones. Trying to build around a weak/bad feat only ends up with a weak/bad build. If you want to build a Soulbow, there are drastically better routes to go than trying to shoehorn Incarnum into it. If you want to combine Incarnum mechanics with psionics, make a Soul Manifester.

[Darg]

The psycarnum blade feat put simply is a replacement for psionic weapon. It will scale with your level without you needing to invest in the greater versions. It's not absolutely terrible, but it's not exactly great either. Azurin is definitely a recommended race, not only for the bonus feat, but also the fact you get a bonus essentia. By level 6 you'll be able to have a +2d6 on your attacks. It's really not a feat you should build around. It's more of a side benefit feat of picking an azurin soulknife. It's possible to squeeze more benefit out of the feat by exploiting level 4 of Incandescent Champion, but it's really unlikely your CHA bonus is going to be decent enough for it to matter.

[Auerkan]

Mmm, I see, dead end then.

I would also optimize Soulbow on its own, but its handbook is dropped halfway, and all I could find leads to either Soulbow 2 / Kensai X(not really *soulbow* optimization, and also very arguable on whether it works), or Shiba Protector dip(3.0 material).

Thread closed, I suppose, genuine thank you for chipping in from higher experience to a newbie.

[pabelfly]

Mmm, I see, dead end then.

I would also optimize Soulbow on its own, but its handbook is dropped halfway, and all I could find leads to either Soulbow 2 / Kensai X(not really *soulbow* optimization, and also very arguable on whether it works), or Shiba Protector dip(3.0 material).

Thread closed, I suppose, genuine thank you for chipping in from higher experience to a newbie.

We could work on optimizing Soulbow for you, that's a bit easier to do.

Are there any restrictions on materials? Anything else you'd like to integrate in, flavour-wise?

[Darg]

Mmm, I see, dead end then.

I would also optimize Soulbow on its own, but its handbook is dropped halfway, and all I could find leads to either Soulbow 2 / Kensai X(not really *soulbow* optimization, and also very arguable on whether it works), or Shiba Protector dip(3.0 material).

Thread closed, I suppose, genuine thank you for chipping in from higher experience to a newbie.

Kensai is there because it's signature weapon becomes a magic weapon. Normally it's questionable whether soulknife's mindblade qualifies as enhanceable when it gets it's +1 bonus. Kensai removes all question, you get access to basically all weapon enhancements, and it's a high BAB class.

[Auerkan]

We could work on optimizing Soulbow for you, that's a bit easier to do.

Oh I am not planning on playing (yet, maybe), just theorising because if I dont the thoughts about it get too noisy(I am not lying about multiple docs. By the way did you know you can probably get a DC 50 poison?). Much apreciated if you are still willing. Thread unclosed then :thumbsup:

Are there any restrictions on materials? Anything else you'd like to integrate in, flavour-wise?

Seeing as I am my own source-picker: no 3.0, FR, and very picky about Web. I may also be against individual isolated things, like Kensai, but nothing that jumps to the front of my mind.

Nothing in particular about flavor so far - I would strongly prefer advancement through soulbow-y classes however, a note I am making because a build I found used Soulbow 2 with Chameleon 7 for persistomancy. What qualifies is up to you. So far I just want to see what it can do without using "forbidden" sources.

~~~

Kensai is there because it's signature weapon becomes a magic weapon. Normally it's questionable whether soulknife's mindblade qualifies as enhanceable when it gets it's +1 bonus. Kensai removes all question, you get access to basically all weapon enhancements, and it's a high BAB class.

Soulbow uses words "create". The weapon Kensai would enhance does not exist at the time. Even if you`d permit to enhance arrows-to-be-made, it would require a meditation per one-use arrow.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Mmm, I see, dead end then.

I would also optimize Soulbow on its own, but its handbook is dropped halfway, and all I could find leads to either Soulbow 2 / Kensai X(not really *soulbow* optimization, and also very arguable on whether it works), or Shiba Protector dip(3.0 material).

Thread closed, I suppose, genuine thank you for chipping in from higher experience to a newbie.

For Soulbow, I recommend using (nonpsionic if available) Thri-Kreen. Take Multiweapon Fighting, wear Gloves of the Balanced Hand which would give you ITWF but you replace that with IMWF.

You've got (ideally) a +1 LA and 2 HD of Monstrous Humanoid, buy off the LA as soon as possible. You need Soulknife 2 to qualify for Soulbow, also pick up Swordsage 1 on your way to that. I'd get Swordsage 2 after Soulbow 1 for the AC bonus. Pepper in a few more Sworsdage levels throughout the build when you'll have the initiator level for a choice maneuver/stance. Be sure to get Woodland Archer, in which case it may be benficial to forego even Lucky for Speed, otherwise Lucky and Wounding is ideal.

The final build would be something like Monstrous Humaniod 2/ Soulknife 2/ Swordsage 1/ Soulbow 10/ Swordsage 5, not necessarily in that order. You could instead take only six Soublow and ten total Swordsage levels, which allows you to take Raging Mongoose at 20th level.

[Darg]

Soulbow uses words "create". The weapon Kensai would enhance does not exist at the time. Even if you`d permit to enhance arrows-to-be-made, it would require a meditation per one-use arrow.

That would actually depend on how you rule how mindblade and mindarrow work. Is it one weapon that gets recreated over and over again? Or are they creating fresh, new, independent weapons every time the abilities create one? The latter instance is instantly exploitable with the lucky enhancement and the free action recreation the class has. Either way, when the mindblade/arrow is created it is identical in all ways as x weapon with y exceptions. Considering how psychic strike works, assuming that the creations are in fact the same weapon is probably the most supported interpretation.

Personally, I subscribe that they create the same weapon because powers and spells can upgrade them. If the effect is lost on recreation there isn't much of a point in using these effect as the weapons were literally designed to be "thrown" away and "sheathing" them also makes them dissipate.

[Auerkan]

Awesomeness.

See, I will need YEARS to achieve levels of system understanding required to conjure up stuff like this. However it points out to me that I have zero knowledge of ToB system, time to get into it.

On creating or recreating

Current consensus is that it creates new weapon each time, hence people saying Lucky is must-pick.

[Darg]

Current consensus is that it creates new weapon each time, hence people saying Lucky is must-pick.

When you say that, you don't actually have factual support for your claim. It might be common in your sphere, but that isn't causation to be common everywhere. People want it to be that way because lucky somewhat makes up for the fact that soulknife is a medium BAB class and your mindblade doesn't scale with character level. Personally, it's better to change what sucks than it is to enable exploitative behavior that's ultimately detrimental the function of the ability.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

When you say that, you don't actually have factual support for your claim. It might be common in your sphere, but that isn't causation to be common everywhere. People want it to be that way because lucky somewhat makes up for the fact that soulknife is a medium BAB class and your mindblade doesn't scale with character level. Personally, it's better to change what sucks than it is to enable exploitative behavior that's ultimately detrimental the function of the ability.

If you buy a stack of +1 Lucky arrows, do you get only one reroll per day for the whole stack, or one reroll per arrow? What if you get a stack of +1 Spell Storing arrows, can each one hold a spell, or would you cast a single spell into the whole stack? Most would argue that each such arrow is a separate weapon, and thus each of those special properties are counted separately per arrow.

A Soulbow creates a brand new Mind Arrow with every attack. Same as above, each is a separate weapon and special properties are counted separately for each arrow.

[loky1109]

If you buy a stack of +1 Lucky arrows, do you get only one reroll per day for the whole stack, or one reroll per arrow? What if you get a stack of +1 Spell Storing arrows, can each one hold a spell, or would you cast a single spell into the whole stack? Most would argue that each such arrow is a separate weapon, and thus each of those special properties are counted separately per arrow.

Both Lucky and Spell Storing aren't applicable for arrows. Melee weapon only.

[pabelfly]

I'd go with Education + Knowledge Devotion. You'd need 16 INT (or 14 INT + Nymph's Kiss) for six Knowledge skills + Concentration, which makes you a little more MAD, but the upside is that you'd get a boost to the attack rolls and damage rolls of each projectile, and Knowledge Devotion would also tell you what enemy you're trying to hit, so you can stack up to 3x Bane enchants on a mind projectile. That's 6d6 damage + WIS + Knowledge Devotion damage per hit.

And since we're focused on WIS and have a few spare levels, might as well get Paladin 2 and Serenity for good saves.

Race: Human

Soulknife 2/Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 1/Paladin of Freedom 2/Soulbow X

1: Education
H: Point-Blank Shot
3: Knowledge Devotion
6: Serenity
SB1: Rapid Shot
9: Woodland Archer

[Auerkan]

Soulknife 2/Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 1/Paladin of Freedom 2/Soulbow X

Sounds decent, however you`d spend Barb/Pal levels hopelessly wasting skill ranks onto Autohypnosis which is cross-class for them(unless I am looking in the wrong place?), so probably better shift second level to 5th(it only gives "Throw Blade" anyways). Also Barb 1 can only Frenzy 1/day, so it may be nice as BAB padding and big fight boost, but not as regular occurence.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Sounds decent, however you`d spend Barb/Pal levels hopelessly wasting skill ranks onto Autohypnosis which is cross-class for them(unless I am looking in the wrong place?), so probably better shift second level to 5th(it only gives "Throw Blade" anyways). Also Barb 1 can only Frenzy 1/day, so it may be nice as BAB padding and big fight boost, but not as regular occurence.

Soulknife gets four skill points/level, so with Int 10+ take it at 1st level and at 5th level and you can get Autohypnosis to 8 ranks as a class skill.

Both Lucky and Spell Storing aren't applicable for arrows. Melee weapon only.

The rules don't say that anywhere.

[Saintheart]

I'd go with Education + Knowledge Devotion. You'd need 16 INT (or 14 INT + Nymph's Kiss) for six Knowledge skills + Concentration, which makes you a little more MAD, but the upside is that you'd get a boost to the attack rolls and damage rolls of each projectile, and Knowledge Devotion would also tell you what enemy you're trying to hit, so you can stack up to 3x Bane enchants on a mind projectile. That's 6d6 damage + WIS + Knowledge Devotion damage per hit.

And since we're focused on WIS and have a few spare levels, might as well get Paladin 2 and Serenity for good saves.

Race: Human

Soulknife 2/Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 1/Paladin of Freedom 2/Soulbow X

1: Education
H: Point-Blank Shot
3: Knowledge Devotion
6: Serenity
SB1: Rapid Shot
9: Woodland Archer

Footnote here around the MAD issue and the fact we're focused on WIS -- if you were dwarven (Stoneblessed 3?), Ancestral Knowledge (RoS) would reduce the MAD a little bit since you can swap out your INT for WIS on Knowledge checks, and it allows you to make Knowledge checks untrained.

It's also a real shame the Mind Blade and Mind Arrow are explicitly in all respects like a short sword and an arrow, because if they'd been Simple weapons you could pull Intuitive Attack (BoED) into it.

[Darg]

If you buy a stack of +1 Lucky arrows, do you get only one reroll per day for the whole stack, or one reroll per arrow? What if you get a stack of +1 Spell Storing arrows, can each one hold a spell, or would you cast a single spell into the whole stack? Most would argue that each such arrow is a separate weapon, and thus each of those special properties are counted separately per arrow.

A Soulbow creates a brand new Mind Arrow with every attack. Same as above, each is a separate weapon and special properties are counted separately for each arrow.

So you would argue that that for the same price as a single weapon, you could enhance 50 arrows with manifester for basically 245 free power points? Sure you can do stupid stuff. Doesn't mean it should be done.

Having each weapon be a separate kind defeats the purpose of having "Powers or spells that upgrade weapons can be used on a mind blade" if they only get one use vs the duration or x ammunition.

Ultimately it's up to how you like to run the game. I prefer things being consistent. So a stack of 50 arrows will have the same effect as a sword with the same qualities. When you buy a stack of 50 ammunition, you're buying a linked set. You can't buy a partial set, nor would I give a player a partial set with parts already disseminated through out the world.

Footnote here around the MAD issue and the fact we're focused on WIS -- if you were dwarven (Stoneblessed 3?), Ancestral Knowledge (RoS) would reduce the MAD a little bit since you can swap out your INT for WIS on Knowledge checks, and it allows you to make Knowledge checks untrained.

It's also a real shame the Mind Blade and Mind Arrow are explicitly in all respects like a short sword and an arrow, because if they'd been Simple weapons you could pull Intuitive Attack (BoED) into it.

Zen archery is just as good for ranged attack rolls.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Not sure about "Psycarnum", but if you're just looking for build advice for a Soulbow, here is one I was thinking about. It at least goes 6 levels deep into Soulbow (if you care about Epic levels/progression, you can do Soulbow 4 only, but I think 2 more levels is more worthwhile than finishing Kensai if the game ends at 20):

Spoiler

Show

Ranger 2 / Soulknife 2 / Unarmed Swordsage 2 / Soulbow 6 / Kensai 8
Progression:
HD 1-2: Ranger 2
HD 3-4: Soulknife 2
HD 5: Unarmed SS 1
HD 6-7: Soulbow 2
HD 8: Unarmed SS +1
HD 9-10: Soulbow +2
HD 11-18: Kensai 8
HD 19-20: Soulbow +2

Swordsage Maneuvers: Insightful Strike, Cloak of Deception, Shadow Jaunt, Mountain Hammer, Emerald Razor, Sapphire NM Blade, Distracting Ember, Mind Over Body (from ring)
Swordsage Stances: Assassin's Stance and pick one of: Child of Shadow, Flame's Blessing, or Hunter's Sense

Feats Wish List (B = bonus feat or a Soulbow bonus feat option): Hidden Talent (B), Zen Archery (B), PBS, Rapid Shot (B), Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus (B), Psionic Meditation, Psionic Shot (B), Improved Unarmed Strike (B), Practiced Mind Blade, Woodland Archer, Precise Shot, Adaptive Style?, Craven?, Shadow Blade?
If allowed: Soulblade Warrior and Enlightened Warrior from DSP (3rd party)

Gear: +1 Mithral Breastplate, Mindblade gauntlets (adamantine and/or lesser) and/or Gauntlets of Ghost Fighting, Goggles of Foefinding, Strongarm Bracers, Boots of Agile Leaping + Anklets of Translocation, Shadow Cloak, Novice Diamond Mind Ring, Ring of Evasion?, Ring of Anticipation, Circlet of Persuasion?, Enemy Spirit Pouch?, Amulet of Fortune Prevailing, Torc of Power Preservation?, Vest of Free Movement?, Hammersphere

Mind Arrow Special properties: Splitting (Kensai), Lucky and Seeking (Soulbow)

Hidden Talent: Dimension Hop or Psionic Minor Creation?

It gives Wis to AC and a bunch of bonus feats, has melee options w/ the maneuvers but also a lot of them are useful for ranged as well, and is pretty strong/functional even at low levels before soulbow enters the picture. Plus if your DM enforces favored class rules (mine does ) none of the base classes go beyond 2 levels, so it's compatible w/ any race. If you don't have to worry about favored class rules, you have more freedom. Could do Moon Warded Ranger and drop the Swordsage levels while still getting Wis to AC, for example (you do lose the free Rapid Shot, though).

[Zarvistic]

Footnote here around the MAD issue and the fact we're focused on WIS -- if you were dwarven (Stoneblessed 3?), Ancestral Knowledge (RoS) would reduce the MAD a little bit since you can swap out your INT for WIS on Knowledge checks, and it allows you to make Knowledge checks untrained.

I too think this is a good idea, but you don't have to be a dwarf. The updated version of Kami's Intuition also does this and you can take it on any race.

[loky1109]

The rules don't say that anywhere.

Rules do say that right at your links. These enchantments exist in melee weapon enchantments lists and don't exist in ranged weapon enchantments lists.

[Bonzai]

My take on mindblade was to go the Iajutsu route. You get free manifest and dismiss actions, so you can get Iajutsu damage on your entire full attack.

[pabelfly]

Footnote here around the MAD issue and the fact we're focused on WIS -- if you were dwarven (Stoneblessed 3?), Ancestral Knowledge (RoS) would reduce the MAD a little bit since you can swap out your INT for WIS on Knowledge checks, and it allows you to make Knowledge checks untrained

Whether I'd go with Stoneblessed or not would really depend on the level range I was playing at. You lose a BAB to take the three levels (and have low skill points). If it was the difference between having, say, 9 and 10 BAB, I wouldn't care, but if it was the difference between 10 and 11 BAB, I'd care a great deal. It also stops you from reaching 16 BAB at level 20 since we lose 1 from Soulknife and 3 from the Soulbow PRC.

We'd also have to stop Soulbow progression or drop Paladin to get it early. Maybe someone else can do a build stub for it.

Zen archery is just as good for ranged attack rolls.

Man, sometimes you can forget the most obvious things. Great suggestion.

Sounds decent, however you`d spend Barb/Pal levels hopelessly wasting skill ranks onto Autohypnosis which is cross-class for them(unless I am looking in the wrong place?), so probably better shift second level to 5th(it only gives "Throw Blade" anyways). Also Barb 1 can only Frenzy 1/day, so it may be nice as BAB padding and big fight boost, but not as regular occurence.

I'd normally pick up Extra Rage, but the build is pretty busy. Let's ditch it for a level of Fighter instead for a bonus feat.

So, attempt 2.

Strongheart Halfling
Soulknife 1/Fighter 1/Paladin of Freedom 2/Soulknife +1/Soulbow X

1: Education
SH: Heavy Armor Optimization
F1: Point-Blank Shot
3: Knowledge Devotion
6: Serenity
SB1: Zen Archery
SB3: Rapid Shot
9: Deflective Armor
SB5: Woodland Archer

WIS boosts attack rolls, damage, and saves and is our preferred stat. We'll want 16 INT for Knowledge Devotion and Autohypnosis ranks. Since we only want minimal DEX, have heavy armor proficiency and can psionically focus, picking up Deflective Armor will fix our touch AC.

I think that looks a lot better than my first attempt, but the real judge is Auerkan.

[loky1109]

My take on mindblade was to go the Iajutsu route. You get free manifest and dismiss actions, so you can get Iajutsu damage on your entire full attack.

You can create mindblade only once per round. (((

[Saintheart]

You can create mindblade only once per round. (((

Wand or custom item of Threesteel (DoF)? The spell can't be cast on artifacts, natural weapons, weapons animated with animate objects or similar spells, or weaponlike magical creations (such as Mordenkainen's sword). Happily, Mind Blades and even the enhancements are all (Su) effects and thus explicitly nonmagical, and they function in all ways except visually as a short sword. Even launches 3 copies of the mind blade at an enemy and gives it a +1 to attack and damage.

[loky1109]

I'm not agree that (Su) is nonmagical, but this looks cool.

[Zarvistic]

You don't need any tricks, there's a feat for it in dragon 341 called mind daggers.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Rules do say that right at your links. These enchantments exist in melee weapon enchantments lists and don't exist in ranged weapon enchantments lists.

"Magic Weapon Special Ability Descriptions" and "Psionic Weapon Special Ability Descriptions" don't limit the effects to melee weapons. Just becuase they can't be randomly discovered on ranged weapons does not mean they're prohibited from being placed on ranged weapons.

[loky1109]

"Magic Weapon Special Ability Descriptions" and "Psionic Weapon Special Ability Descriptions" don't limit the effects to melee weapons. Just becuase they can't be randomly discovered on ranged weapons does not mean they're prohibited from being placed on ranged weapons.

Okay. Go to MIC.
Spell Storing exists only in Melee Weapon Properties list (p. 240).
But about Lucky I wasn't true. It exists in both lists.