What work cemented the visual look of western dragons?

[Lemmy]

Yeah, Beowulf would have been my blind guess for literature since I'm pretty sure it's the oldest surviving piece of European literature we have. Though even Beowulf didn't fully codify the look and traits, as Fafnir (from the epic of Sigurd/Siegfried) is considerably more serpent-like, and that was written a bit later.

But it seems reasonable to deduce that the depiction of the hoarding, lizard-like, fire-breathing dragon of Beowulf did stick in peoples' imaginations and slowly started to become the dominant western depiction.



I always love the story of what inspired the Questing Beast, from the Arthurian legends. A fierce beast with the body of leopard and head of a snake!

Behold!

Spoiler

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A far cry from people drawing it by description...

You know... That's actually a really good illustration... If you make its head more camel/horse-like instead of reptilian, it would be an almost dead-on-the-mark picture of a giraffe.

That's very impressive, considering the guy who drew it probably had never even heard of a giraffe before (and let's be honest... Not many vertebrates are as weird-looking as a giraffe).

[Eldan]

It's definitely not a medieval picture, though, judging by the style and technique. So, probably by someone who knew what a giraffe looked like and painted the questing beast like that on purpose. (Edit: found the source. 1904). I can't find an actual medieval picture.

[Lemmy]

It's definitely not a medieval picture, though, judging by the style and technique. So, probably by someone who knew what a giraffe looked like and painted the questing beast like that on purpose. (Edit: found the source. 1904). I can't find an actual medieval picture.

Ah... Gotcha. Makes sense.

[Grim Portent]

I think an interesting bonus question would be when we first got a glorious, majestic dragon. A mighty beast much larger than the knight slaying it, isntead of some pitiful crawling thing. Because that view held on much longer.

I would guess sometime in the 1800s, probably as part of an illustrated children's book.

The look had definitely taken by the 1900s, it pops up in various old animated works I'm familiar with, but my knowledge of older works isn't sufficient to guess where they got it from. The oldest one I know of is The Reluctant Dragon, which is bigger than a man, but also not quite a modern dragon since it doesn't have wings.


For a rumination of my own, when did dragons stop having mammalian features added in? Beards, ears, paws, canine or feline snouts all featured in some dragons in the 20th century, but I can't think of many having them these days.

[Batcathat]

For a rumination of my own, when did dragons stop having mammalian features added in? Beards, ears, paws, canine or feline snouts all featured in some dragons in the 20th century, but I can't think of many having them these days.

I wonder if there might be some influence from dinosaurs? While quite different from dragons, they're a pretty obvious comparison and might've pushed dragons away from the more mammalian look.

Though I suppose the timeline might not match up with what you're saying. Unless it's specifically because of Jurassic Park and other modern dinosaur depictions, maybe?

[Eldan]

Of course, dinosaurs had mammalian features too, very early on. Richard Owen of the British Museum, who did the first famous reproductions, wanted them to look like mammals, so they ended up sort of looking like rhinoceroses covered in scales.

[Batcathat]

I suppose we'll have to wait and see if the popular image of dragons eventually gets feathers.

Also, dinosaurs might explain the popularity of big majestic dragons, too. Dinos might come in all sizes but the big ones are certainly the most iconic.

[Errorname]

I think an interesting bonus question would be when we first got a glorious, majestic dragon. A mighty beast much larger than the knight slaying it, isntead of some pitiful crawling thing. Because that view held on much longer.

We're definitely at that point by the time of Smaug, and while I'm no scholar of Beowulf I do think the dragon in that story is quite large.

I wonder if there might be some influence from dinosaurs? While quite different from dragons, they're a pretty obvious comparison and might've pushed dragons away from the more mammalian look.

I definitely credit dinosaurs to the increase in size and majesty, along with the proliferation of zoos with exotic large extant reptiles. If you've seen a real Komodo Dragon and know how big a T. rex was, suddenly a three meter long dragon doesn't seem so fantastical anymore.

I don't know about the mammal thing though. I'd honestly say it was probably more that the successful depictions were more reptilian so that's what got copied. Like I remember the Bankin-Rass Smaug being really mammalian looking, but it's not like the Bankin-Rass Tolkien adaptations were all that influential or popular.

I suppose we'll have to wait and see if the popular image of dragons eventually gets feathers.

I mean, it's happened. Eragon's film adaptation went for feathered wings.

Frankly I'm waiting for the media property which bases their dragons around either Azdarchids or Scansoriopterygids. Scansoriopterygids in particular are about as close to real dragons as evolution ever produced, although sadly the real ones were all quite small (where Azdarchids don't look like traditional dragons but absolutely would have felt like them)

[Grim Portent]

I wonder if there might be some influence from dinosaurs? While quite different from dragons, they're a pretty obvious comparison and might've pushed dragons away from the more mammalian look.

Though I suppose the timeline might not match up with what you're saying. Unless it's specifically because of Jurassic Park and other modern dinosaur depictions, maybe?

It kind of matches up, things like Rankin Bass's cat-Smaug was from 1977, and kind of the pinnacle of mammal/reptile dragons, and there was a big spike in dinosaur media in the 80s and 90s wasn't there? Land Before Time, Barney, Jurassic Park, Walking With Dinosaurs, and probably a hundred more properties I don't recall. It wouldn't be odd for the explosion of more modern takes on dinosaurs and the introduction to them in lots of child oriented media to reshape something like dragons.

There's also the general artistic shifts that took place come to think of it. CGI animated stuff like Dragonheart which went for a fully reptilian dragon, as did several budget movie properties afterwards, the tone shifts of the 80s and 90s might have also pushed for a less whimsical dragon.

EDIT:

Frankly I'm waiting for the media property which bases their dragons around either Azdarchids or Scansoriopterygids. Scansoriopterygids in particular are about as close to real dragons as evolution ever produced, although sadly the real ones were all quite small (where Azdarchids don't look like traditional dragons but absolutely would have felt like them)

Fire breathing flying murder-giraffes could be pretty fun.

[OracleofWuffing]

For a rumination of my own, when did dragons stop having mammalian features added in? Beards, ears, paws, canine or feline snouts all featured in some dragons in the 20th century, but I can't think of many having them these days.

If you look under certain corners of the internet, you will find endless modern dragons with massive mammalian features, I assure you.

In the meantime, there's Calder, from Order of the Stick. He's fairly board-appropriate, and is rocking a beard. Unless that's supposed to be some sort of tentacle arrangement.

[Wintermoot]

If you look under certain corners of the internet, you will find endless modern dragons with massive mammalian features, I assure you.

In the meantime, there's Calder, from Order of the Stick. He's fairly board-appropriate, and is rocking a beard. Unless that's supposed to be some sort of tentacle arrangement.

I guess I assumed that was some kind of dewlap or similar skin/scale growth, as opposed to hair. Doesn't look like hair to me.

[Grim Portent]

If you look under certain corners of the internet, you will find endless modern dragons with massive mammalian features, I assure you.

In the meantime, there's Calder, from Order of the Stick. He's fairly board-appropriate, and is rocking a beard. Unless that's supposed to be some sort of tentacle arrangement.

Calder does seem to be among the rare modern exceptions to the general decline of mammal bits. Warcraft dragons are in that boat as well, with some having beards though I think they're less of a thing now than they were 10+ years ago.

[Metastachydium]

I wonder if there might be some influence from dinosaurs? While quite different from dragons, they're a pretty obvious comparison and might've pushed dragons away from the more mammalian look.

Though I suppose the timeline might not match up with what you're saying. Unless it's specifically because of Jurassic Park and other modern dinosaur depictions, maybe?

I suppose we'll have to wait and see if the popular image of dragons eventually gets feathers.

At any rate… I'm all for BIRDY DRAGONS!

(where Azdarchids don't look like traditional dragons but absolutely would have felt like them)

Fire breathing flying murder-giraffes could be pretty fun.

Funnily enough, a fire-breathing Quetzalcoatlus would look an awful lot like a beaked murder-giraffe on the ground.

[Peelee]

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I would guess sometime in the 1800s, probably as part of an illustrated children's book.

The look had definitely taken by the 1900s, it pops up in various old animated works I'm familiar with, but my knowledge of older works isn't sufficient to guess where they got it from. The oldest one I know of is The Reluctant Dragon, which is bigger than a man, but also not quite a modern dragon since it doesn't have wings.


For a rumination of my own, when did dragons stop having mammalian features added in? Beards, ears, paws, canine or feline snouts all featured in some dragons in the 20th century, but I can't think of many having them these days.

Of course, dinosaurs had mammalian features too, very early on. Richard Owen of the British Museum, who did the first famous reproductions, wanted them to look like mammals, so they ended up sort of looking like rhinoceroses covered in scales.

I suppose we'll have to wait and see if the popular image of dragons eventually gets feathers.

Also, dinosaurs might explain the popularity of big majestic dragons, too. Dinos might come in all sizes but the big ones are certainly the most iconic.

We're definitely at that point by the time of Smaug, and while I'm no scholar of Beowulf I do think the dragon in that story is quite large.



I definitely credit dinosaurs to the increase in size and majesty, along with the proliferation of zoos with exotic large extant reptiles. If you've seen a real Komodo Dragon and know how big a T. rex was, suddenly a three meter long dragon doesn't seem so fantastical anymore.

I don't know about the mammal thing though. I'd honestly say it was probably more that the successful depictions were more reptilian so that's what got copied. Like I remember the Bankin-Rass Smaug being really mammalian looking, but it's not like the Bankin-Rass Tolkien adaptations were all that influential or popular.



I mean, it's happened. Eragon's film adaptation went for feathered wings.

Frankly I'm waiting for the media property which bases their dragons around either Azdarchids or Scansoriopterygids. Scansoriopterygids in particular are about as close to real dragons as evolution ever produced, although sadly the real ones were all quite small (where Azdarchids don't look like traditional dragons but absolutely would have felt like them)

It kind of matches up, things like Rankin Bass's cat-Smaug was from 1977, and kind of the pinnacle of mammal/reptile dragons, and there was a big spike in dinosaur media in the 80s and 90s wasn't there? Land Before Time, Barney, Jurassic Park, Walking With Dinosaurs, and probably a hundred more properties I don't recall. It wouldn't be odd for the explosion of more modern takes on dinosaurs and the introduction to them in lots of child oriented media to reshape something like dragons.

There's also the general artistic shifts that took place come to think of it. CGI animated stuff like Dragonheart which went for a fully reptilian dragon, as did several budget movie properties afterwards, the tone shifts of the 80s and 90s might have also pushed for a less whimsical dragon.

EDIT:


Fire breathing flying murder-giraffes could be pretty fun.

If you look under certain corners of the internet, you will find endless modern dragons with massive mammalian features, I assure you.

In the meantime, there's Calder, from Order of the Stick. He's fairly board-appropriate, and is rocking a beard. Unless that's supposed to be some sort of tentacle arrangement.

I guess I assumed that was some kind of dewlap or similar skin/scale growth, as opposed to hair. Doesn't look like hair to me.

Calder does seem to be among the rare modern exceptions to the general decline of mammal bits. Warcraft dragons are in that boat as well, with some having beards though I think they're less of a thing now than they were 10+ years ago.

At any rate… I'm all for BIRDY DRAGONS!





Funnily enough, a fire-breathing Quetzalcoatlus would look an awful lot like a beaked murder-giraffe on the ground.

I see I'm gathering quite the list of people who fundamentally reject my mohawk. Brave choice when I have frost breath and a full complement of spells as an innate sorcerer.

[Errorname]

I think it's easy for this sort of discussion to turn into apophenia, reckoning a pattern that sounds right but doesn't actually hold up.

Like I thought I'd noticed an interesting pattern of two legged dragons tending to be more animalistic and four legged dragons tending to be more anthropomorphized, which sounds good so long as I don't acknowledge exceptions (Skyrim has two legged dragons whose language and sapience is fundamental to the story, Dragon Age's Dragons are little more than dangerous animals)

Funnily enough, a fire-breathing Quetzalcoatlus would look an awful lot like a beaked murder-giraffe on the ground.

I think that's why they called the concept of an Azdarchid inspired dragon a beaked murder-giraffe.

I see I'm gathering quite the list of people who fundamentally reject my mohawk. Brave choice when I have frost breath and a full complement of spells as an innate sorcerer.

I did not interpret that mohawk as being hair, I thought it was like a Basiliscus sail or something.

Same with Calder, honestly, I'm not going to interpret a dragon's features as mammalian in an abstracted artstyle, especially since there's such a precedent of designs mimicking the feel of a mammalian feature (like a beard or mane) with reptillian scutes or spines.

[Peelee]

I did not interpret that mohawk as being hair, I thought it was like a Basiliscus sail or something.

Ray, when someone a dragon asks you if you're a God you like his mohawk, you say YES!

[Grim Portent]

I did not interpret that mohawk as being hair, I thought it was like a Basiliscus sail or something.

Same with Calder, honestly, I'm not going to interpret a dragon's features as mammalian in an abstracted artstyle, especially since there's such a precedent of designs mimicking the feel of a mammalian feature (like a beard or mane) with reptillian scutes or spines.

In Calder's case the way the two fore bulby-bits are drawn looks more like how hair would be drawn rather than tentacles or spines, they even change shape in some pages in a way that reads to me as hair streaming behind his head movements. The little scraggly bit behind them does look a bit more tentacular.

Ray, when someone a dragon asks you if you're a God you like his mohawk, you say YES!

Ain't you a Silver Dragon? Cause that would make that a frill or crest, I've read my monster manual.

Mind you, in reptile-people artwork dorsal crests are used as a replacement for mohawks, rather than just having them wear wigs or hats or something, so I guess it counts as a mohawk. In that light, nice mohawk.

[OracleofWuffing]

Ray, when someone a dragon asks you if you're a God you like his mohawk, you say YES!

I, too, mistakenly thought it was a collapsible sail used to aid in hydrodynamics, to signal to potential mates that you were of age and seeking, and also to absorb solar light for use as a backup energy source for your light-up shoes. But if it is just merely a mohawk, then yes, it is far greater than any mohawk I have sported.

[Errorname]

In Calder's case the way the two fore bulby-bits are drawn looks more like how hair would be drawn rather than tentacles or spines, they even change shape in some pages in a way that reads to me as hair streaming behind his head movements. The little scraggly bit behind them does look a bit more tentacular

Honestly it doesn't read like how this comic draws hair, it feels more like a Wobbegong's fleshy beard than anything else.

That might be another shift, increasing global communication and migration has led to a lot more influence from Lóngs, which have piscine qualities that in my experience a lot of European dragons either lack outright or do not display prominently.

[Prime32]

Frankly I'm waiting for the media property which bases their dragons around either Azdarchids or Scansoriopterygids. Scansoriopterygids in particular are about as close to real dragons as evolution ever produced, although sadly the real ones were all quite small (where Azdarchids don't look like traditional dragons but absolutely would have felt like them)

Dungeon Meshi had basilisks with a standard "rooster with a snake for a tail" design... and then the larger cockatrice, which resembled proto-birds like archeopteryx while keeping the rooster's comb/wattle.

[Ionathus]

Is it still available at the garage sale?

Well of course not -- I wasn't gonna let a treasure like that slip through my fingers!

Let me know if you want to take a crack at it after we've completed it.

That might be another shift, increasing global communication and migration has led to a lot more influence from Lóngs, which have piscine qualities that in my experience a lot of European dragons either lack outright or do not display prominently.

Interesting; I've always interpreted Lóngs' frills/manes/accents as being closer to hair or fur. Is the artwork intended to evoke, like, catfish-style fleshy whiskers?

[GloatingSwine]

Well of course not -- I wasn't gonna let a treasure like that slip through my fingers!

Let me know if you want to take a crack at it after we've completed it.



Interesting; I've always interpreted Lóngs' frills/manes/accents as being closer to hair or fur. Is the artwork intended to evoke, like, catfish-style fleshy whiskers?

The whiskers are evoking those on Koi. Which can turn into dragons if they try real hard.

[Grim Portent]

Interesting; I've always interpreted Lóngs' frills/manes/accents as being closer to hair or fur. Is the artwork intended to evoke, like, catfish-style fleshy whiskers?

The whiskers are often something like catfish barbels, but the mane and frills towards the back of the head, on the limbs or along the spine are meant to be like a lions. Chinese dragons are chimeras, mixing together the features of a lot of animals. Body of a snake, scales of a fish, mane of a lion, antlers of a deer are the most consistent ones as I understand it.

[Bohandas]

For a rumination of my own, when did dragons stop having mammalian features added in? Beards, ears, paws, canine or feline snouts all featured in some dragons in the 20th century, but I can't think of many having them these days.

Check out some of the furry art sites

[Peelee]

Well of course not -- I wasn't gonna let a treasure like that slip through my fingers!

Dammit, Ionathus, now how am i going to get it from a non descriptive garage sale i dont know the location of from probably several years ago?

Let me know if you want to take a crack at it after we've completed it.

I do love dragon puzzles....

The whiskers are evoking those on Koi. Which can turn into dragons if they try real hard.

I'd have gone with this.

[Bohandas]

Honestly it doesn't read like how this comic draws hair, it feels more like a Wobbegong's fleshy beard than anything else.

That's such a silly sounding name for an animal. It sounds more like a pokemon than a shark

I suppose we'll have to wait and see if the popular image of dragons eventually gets feathers.

Again, check out some of the furry art sites. And also Mesoamerica.

[Grim Portent]

Again, check out some of the furry art sites. And also Mesoamerica.

OracleofWuffing beat you to the joke.

If you look under certain corners of the internet, you will find endless modern dragons with massive mammalian features, I assure you.

Dragons with huge tracts of land aside, I'm not sure the mesoamerican critters are usually considered dragons. It's rather arbitrary I know, but for whatever reason Coatls and the like are off to the side. Really asian dragons should as well, but because of shoddy translation conventions they got the name and started to mix together with the western ones. It's like pandas and giant pandas, unrelated but conflated. And on certain sites, inflated.

[dancrilis]

Apparently (if you trust wiki) then 'MS Harley 3244, a medieval bestiary dated to around 1260 AD, contains the oldest recognizable image of a fully modern, Western dragon'.

Spoiler: Behold

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But in terms of what cemented the visual look of western dragons - I think that probably relies on what you by by cemented, western dragons and visual look (the above seems to have four wings).

I think Smaug likely did more cementing then other dragons before him although the one George killed likely did inspire him and there is an image of him from shortly after the above ~1270AD.

Spoiler: Behold (again)

Show

[Floogal]

I see I'm gathering quite the list of people who fundamentally reject my mohawk. Brave choice when I have frost breath and a full complement of spells as an innate sorcerer.

Keep in mind that those, like me, browsing on mobile are seeing a black, "hairless" dragon next to your name. Not a silver dragon that, I assume, has some form of flowing accent.

[Bohandas]

There are people who actually use the mobile versions of websites?

The first thing I do when I install a browser on my phone is set it permanently to use the desktop version of the site