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Thread: Warlock powers in 3.5
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2024-05-10, 06:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Warlock powers in 3.5
Hello! Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, in Dungeons & Dragons 3.5e, warlocks works with magic the same way as other arcane casters - through touching the Weave. However, it is impossible not to notice the "dark" orientation of the warlock's invocations - all his magic refers to the Nine Hells or has a "dark" theme . So, from lore's point of view, what is the source of the warlock's magic in the 3e? And how can a warlock with a good alignment have access to the dark magic of this class? Bring down all the power of lore and fluff on me, please, I need it right now!
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2024-05-10, 06:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock powers in 3.5
The Weave is very much a Forgotten Realms thing, not necessarily part of the entirety of D&D. Warlocks come out of the book Complete Arcane, and the source of their power is described as the result of pacts made with extraplanar creatures - either by themselves or someone earlier in their lineage.
The alignment is listed as any evil or any chaotic - so you could easily have a Chaotic Good Warlock. "Many" are supposed to be the result of pacts with devils, fiends, and other dark powers, but that doesn't exclude the possibility of a Warlock being a channel or having a pact with good or neutral extraplanar entities.
I've always wanted to play one, just never got around to it since there are other classes I love more.
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2024-05-10, 06:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock powers in 3.5
Complete Mage page 6 lists a number of possible warlock power sources: demons and devils are one way, but fey and even slaadi and celestials also get mentioned. Basically, if it's an outsider or fey that commonly takes on Evil or Chaotic alignments, it's fair game.
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2024-05-10, 07:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock powers in 3.5
There are 3 avenues for the sources of their power: being the descendant of a supernatural trafficker, forming a pact with a supernatural power, or simply being "chosen" as a conduit or tool. As for the source of magic, Complete Mage lists a few beings with the capability of granting a warlock's power ranging from evil to chaotic to good. "Dark" doesn't only mean "evil." It could also mean something likely to bring misfortune as well (hence chaotic).
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2024-05-11, 03:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock powers in 3.5
(Have I mentioned yet today how dumb I find the notion that LN Warlocks are impossible by RAW, whereas CG ones can just run around all day with Devil-themed ****? So unfair, so nonsensical.)
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2024-05-11, 09:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-05-12, 07:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock powers in 3.5
Don't think of the Weave as a source of power: Power has all of the same sources in Faerun as it does in any D&D world, and the outer planes and powerful entities are a perfectly valid source of power. Rather, the Weave is what connects everything, and allows that power to be used.
Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
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2024-05-12, 07:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock powers in 3.5
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2024-05-12, 09:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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2024-05-12, 10:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock powers in 3.5
It was always my assumption that the CG ones were from a different planar pact than the Devil-themed ones. I could see a Fae powered warlock being a very chaotic good type.
To that end, I do agree that there are likely in any campaign world Lawful powers that would make a deal and make some Lawful Warlocks. I always thought it would be better set like Clerics where you needed to be within one step of your pact source.
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2024-05-12, 04:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock powers in 3.5
I've basically come to the conclusion that the alignment restrictions come down to one or both of these: either the designers for the class were operating under the interpretation that being chaotic was like being slightly evil or they wanted non-evil Warlocks to be actively trying to subvert their pacts
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2024-05-12, 05:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock powers in 3.5
In case it helps, I wrote up a quick homebrew fix to mechanically represent different types of warlock origin.
SpoilerAlternative Pacts
Level: 1st
Replaces: This benefit modifies the damage reduction class feature and the normal alignment restriction for the warlock class.
Benefit: Your arcane power reflects the patron that granted it. Depending on the source of your pact, you may have a different type of damage reduction and/or alignment.
Patron
Damage Reduction
Alignment Celestial DR/evil Any good Daelkyr DR/byeshk CN, CE, NE, or LE Devil DR/silver Any nongood, nonchaotic Elder Evil DR/good Any evil Elemental DR/magic, and
increase DR by 1Any Fey DR/cold iron Any Deathless DR/targath Any nonevil Demon DR/cold iron Any nongood, nonlawful Yugoloth DR/good Any nongood
At your option, your invocations may also change to visually resemble the magic typically associated with your patron. For example, a celestial pact results in invocations that are bright and beautiful, while a pact with a fire elemental results in invocations that resemble flames, smoke, or lava. This change is purely cosmetic and has no mechanical effect.
It's extrapolated from the Dragon Magazine article that mentions changing the DR from cold iron to byeshk for warlocks with aberrant patrons.Last edited by Troacctid; 2024-05-12 at 07:50 PM.
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2024-05-12, 06:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock powers in 3.5
Troacctid, that looks nice. I may have to copy that into my notebook of fun homebrews for future reference.
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2024-05-12, 08:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-05-12, 10:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Rhymes with "Protracted."
Handbooks: The Warlockopedia | The Warmagepedia (WIP) | Tier List (2019 Update)
Spreadsheets: Spellcasting classes | Deities | Useful items
Homebrew: Gestalt Theurge | Fighter and Monk fixes | Warlock stuff | Houserules and quick fixes
Original Fiction: The Wizard's Familiar
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2024-05-13, 10:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock powers in 3.5
Well, yes, but no. I mean, given their signature ability ("Barbarians harness the power of strong emotions to turn into reckless engines of destruction!!"), they'd have the same problem as Warlocks if the developers then drew the "logical" conclusion that "therefore, they can be Lawful Good, but not Chaotic Neutral" (cf. the CG Warlcok spamming Devil's Sight and Swimming the Styx, which is as RAW as it gets).
Bards, on the other hand… I'll probably never get past the fact that it provides the perfect basis for building a Troubadour – until you realise that the intiricate and insanely Lawful social game termed as courtly love that the mindset of those revolves around meshes rather poorly with "Non-Lawful or get the heck out".
That CG is an avauilable option is somewhat incongruous, given the flavour (and sometimes, nature) of Warlock abilities, but it doesn't bother me as much as, yeah, how a LE deity might, by RAW, have a LN Cleric or Favoured Soul as high in the church hierarchy as one pleases to place 'em, but LN Warlocks are somehow impoosible.
Seconding that. This is very much appreciated.
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2024-05-13, 11:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock powers in 3.5
How do warlocks get their power? From some point where they or their ancestors bargained for or were randomly "chosen" as an instrument or tool from beings that want to use the warlock, ancestor, or bloodline for their own ends.
The point being that chaotic entities or evil ones are the only sources of power. The source of a warlock's power is more chaotic than a sorcerer's as a sorcerer can still learn spells from scrolls. There's a semblance of structure. Warlocks on the other hand can't even do that and much more about willing the power to take shape and that just isn't structured. It doesn’t make sense to you probably because you aren't seeing alignment as being real and instead as a concept.
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2024-05-13, 12:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-05-13, 02:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock powers in 3.5
Yep. Their only way of expanding their repertoire beyond their standard allotment that I know of is taking that Extra Spell feat – which notably does have an equivalent for Warlocks.
Well, the notion that a LN creature would never make such a pact or a LE entity would only choose to empower "Chaotic or Evil" creatures in such a way because alignment is real must be the oddest take on how Warlock elignment works I've ever seen.
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2024-05-13, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-05-16, 02:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock powers in 3.5
Close, the designers for the classes only envisioned very narrow archetypes for those classes.
Barbarians MUST be savage illiterate people from the edge of civilization. And rage can only be a surrender to wild and savage impulses, and being a disciplined person precludes that.
Monks can only be the wuxia martial artist archetype. Most of their powers come from "hours spent in meditation"
Bards were the worst ones, too. Their alignment restriction is allegedly due to "the spontaneous nature of their magic" (which is identical to how a Sorcerer casts spells) "and their lifestyle" (which is identical to every other adventurer).
Narrow focus of class design is what imposes these restrictions. And warlock was no exception.Red Mage avatar by Aedilred.
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2024-05-16, 03:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock powers in 3.5
Actually, there are some lawful barbarians and bards:
Barbarians:
Theogrin Raablek (Complete Arcane) - LN Barbarian 4/Sorcerer 1/Green Star Adept 3
(Also, Boromar, Jocomo "Jimmy the Gimp" is LE Rogue 6/Barbarian 6 - but I can't find from where he is. Being a Halfling with Boromar name - somewhere in Eberron?..)
Bards:
Akeni Orm (Lords of Madness) - LE Bard 6/Fighter 2/Ocular Adept 4
Antilia (Book of Vile Darkness) - LE Bard 20 (!!!)
Formian Astronomer (Planar Handbook) - LN Bard 3
Freilya Stormwind (Cityscape) - LN Bard 5/Urban Savant 6
Lukaas Duskwhisper (Complete Mage) - LE Bard 2/Illusionist 7/Nightmare Spinner 5
(Also, Cylyria Dragonbreast was LN pre-3E)
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2024-05-16, 04:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock powers in 3.5
Barbarians and Bards don't lose all of their features for becoming a different alignment. They just have rules they need to follow:
Ex-Barbarians
A barbarian who becomes lawful loses the ability to rage and cannot gain more levels as a barbarian. He retains all the other benefits of the class (damage reduction, fast movement, trap sense, and uncanny dodge).Ex-Bards
A bard who becomes lawful in alignment cannot progress in levels as a bard, though he retains all his bard abilities.
His magic emphasizes charms and illusions over the more dramatic evocation spells that wizards and sorcerers often use.Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music).Last edited by Darg; 2024-05-16 at 04:15 PM.
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2024-05-16, 04:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock powers in 3.5
Yes, but look at mono-class Bards:
Formian Astronomer is a Formian Myrmarch - an "Always lawful neutral" Outsider with Lawful subtype; it's highly unlikely they ever were non-Lawful to begin with
And Antilia's father is Mephistopheles himself; I doubt being raised in Cania leaves many possibilities of being non-LE
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2024-05-16, 04:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock powers in 3.5
Alignment: This line in a monster entry gives the alignment that the creature is most likely to have Every entry includes a qualifier that indicates how bradly that alignment applies to all monsters of that kind.
Always: The creature is born with the indicated alignment. The creature may have a hereditary predisposition to the alignment or come from a plane that predetermines it. It is possible for individuals to change alignment, but such individuals are either unique or rare exceptions.