Thinly Veiled

[Arlanthe]

So "salvation is not for everyone"...

"True forgiveness requires you repent for your misdeeds"...

You must "atone for the actions that caused the twelve gods to turn away from you"...

Sounds pretty familiar. Could do without preaching in the comic, intentional or not. Meh.

[dehro]

the ghost of an epic paladin talking to a dying fallen one...what did you expect them to talk about..the receipt for black pudding maybe?

[Kreistor]

Gotta agree. It's the nature of the beast when it comes to inherently religious matters. Taking it personally? Meh.

[Giscard76]

So "salvation is not for everyone"...

"True forgiveness requires you repent for your misdeeds"...

You must "atone for the actions that caused the twelve gods to turn away from you"...

Sounds pretty familiar. Could do without preaching in the comic, intentional or not. Meh.

If your offended you can always choose not to read.

[Senex]

On a related note, I couldn't help but notice that none of the OotS members seem to show any interest in the idea of redemption (with, perhaps, an exception of Elan during his occasional lapses into lucidity).

They seem to be firm believers in karma and predestination, though.

[lord_khaine]

none of the OOTS's really have anything to seek redemption for, at least besides belkar who is a lost cause.

[Baalzebub]

Yeah. It's a Lawfull Good Religion. What did you expect? What's exactly your point?

[F.H. Zebedee]

Well, if you're such a devout atheist that you can't live with ANY reference to religion, you'll have a hard time reading any fantasy strips whatsoever. The two generally go hand in hand.

And yes, as said before, it's lawful good, with emphasis on guilt and martyrdom. What do you expect it to resemble?

[TreesOfDeath]

I felt a little offened that a couple of comics seem to have been mocking the concept of Providence. Oh and did you notice the oh so subtle(but pretty cool) rhterioc about war?
Anyway its a Paladin, its their job to be preachy, stick up ass or not

[SPoD]

So "salvation is not for everyone"...

"True forgiveness requires you repent for your misdeeds"...

You must "atone for the actions that caused the twelve gods to turn away from you"...

Sounds pretty familiar. Could do without preaching in the comic, intentional or not. Meh.

You're kidding, right? This is the comic where one of the main characters worships his own hand puppet. There is no religious message in the comic. There's a message about the D&D paladin and how the fall-and-atone cycle is usually botched by novice DMs. That's it.

You're seeing what you want to see so you can get outraged.

I'll be shocked if this thread isn't locked within the hour.

[ThorFluff]

i'd be, seeing as NONE of the messages i've sent to either report or ask for something has be replied so far.
(You see, i'm hoping the admin will see this and check his frikking inbox ;))

[PaladinFreak]

I would not call that preachy at all. I would say he is telling her what she needs to here, and, in a lot of ways, that stuff is to soften the blow of finding out that she didn't atone. I didn't have any problem with it.

[TreesOfDeath]

You're kidding, right? This is the comic where one of the main characters worships his own hand puppet. There is no religious message in the comic. There's a message about the D&D paladin and how the fall-and-atone cycle is usually botched by novice DMs. That's it.

You're seeing what you want to see so you can get outraged.

I'll be shocked if this thread isn't locked within the hour.

Its understandable you'd say that, but I'm not that kidn of person, really. I could be wrong, eh.
And I'm sure a lock is coming but its going to take more than an hour

[SPoD]

Its understandable you'd say that, but I'm not that kidn of person, really. I could be wrong, eh.

I was talking to the Original Poster, not you. I will edit to make clearer.

[ThorFluff]

But in the end it all boils down to- Don't like it? Don't read it!

Like some cool signature says:
You not reading the comic isn't going to make this comic any less awesome for all the rest of us

[Senex]

none of the OOTS's really have anything to seek redemption for, at least besides belkar who is a lost cause.

Ah, but they haven't ever bothered trying to redeem or convert their foes, either. Their list of methods appears to be limited to:

1) killing the enemies;
2) running away from the enemies;
3) locking the enemies away (not to rehabilitate them, mind, but merely to get them out of the Order's hair).

[Grey Watcher]

So "salvation is not for everyone"...

"True forgiveness requires you repent for your misdeeds"...

You must "atone for the actions that caused the twelve gods to turn away from you"...

Sounds pretty familiar. Could do without preaching in the comic, intentional or not. Meh.

:shrug: I took it less as preaching to us and more as, "No, Miko isn't going to have some grand story about vengeance or redemption. It's not for her, say goodbye now."

[Arlanthe]

Wow.

I'm not one of those "OMG I am offended, I shall pretend nevar to read this again!" people. I fully intend to continue reading this great strip, as well as buy the latest book at the San Diego Comic-Con, as I did last year. Please don't put words in my mouth, or insinuate I don't like the comic as I have been a long time fan, and bought the first book on the first run. It's signed.

But I wasn't referring to any specific religion, only the concept in general, more from the perspective it has "been done, and done again" as another poster pointed out.

Nor did I "take it personally" (Rich doesn't even know me, how can it have been personal?). Nor am I looking for an excuse to be outraged. I am not. I said "Meh.". "Meh" is not outraged. "Meh" is "Meh".

Well, I am sorry if some people took it the wrong way, it is not my intent to sew the seeds of OMG!ism. I think my opinion is valid even if you don't agree. It's just my own preference that I prefer the less serious strips, which I am quite clearly part of a small minority anyway.

Edit:

(No doubt my "Dice Atheist" signature din't help my perception and sent the wrong message- which was just a joke from a thread on dice and luck awhile back.)


Edit 2: Interesting take on it, Mr. Watcher Mod. I can definitely see how one would get that from the strip. Especially since she's, you know, torn in half. Though it warms my heart to hear that Windstriker gets to visit her.

Peace out.

[lord_khaine]

Ah, but they haven't ever bothered trying to redeem or convert their foes, either. Their list of methods appears to be limited to:

1) killing the enemies;
2) running away from the enemies;
3) locking the enemies away (not to rehabilitate them, mind, but merely to get them out of the Order's hair).

why should they try and do anything else, their enemies are powerfull, evil and a danger to the general society, the fastest and most efficient way of dealing with them is to kill them.

[teratorn]

Well, I am sorry if some people took it the wrong way, it is not my intent to sew the seeds of OMG!ism.

Why should you be sorry? Not your fault. You just gave your opinion. I confess I liked Soon and I didn't mind the preaching. It made for a better contrast with Roy's death. Roy is taunted by evil, Miko hears a lawful good rant on how to behave and the nature of redemption.

Edit 2: Interesting take on it, Mr. Watcher Mod. I can definitely see how one would get that from the strip.

Strange, I always assumed the Grey Watcher to be female.

[truemane]

OKay, but the thing you're all missing out on is that, in this world, there ARE Gods, and they do make their wills manifest, and their displeasure known. As such. talking about Atonement and Redemption is NOT preachy, it's just laying out the rules as they exist.

In D&D, Atonement and Redemption and all that sort of thing is as certain and as indisputable as the Laws of Physics.

If I started a thread tlaking about how you have to be careful when you walk because there's this force called Gravity that tends to cause all object to fall towards the centre of the earth, no one would get up on their high-horses and say:

Stop your preaching! You can your "forces"! Meh! Whatever!

Because I'm just talking the plain, unblemished, TRUTH.

So was Soon.

That's like calling Durkon preachy because he prays for spells all the time.

You can't apply "Real World" attitudes to D&D. Because the Gods do exist. period. And their laws exist. Period. As such, it's silly to be upset when characters act as though they do.

[Arlanthe]

OKay, but the thing you're all missing out on is that, in this world, there ARE Gods, and they do make their wills manifest, and their displeasure known. As such. talking about Atonement and Redemption is NOT preachy, it's just laying out the rules as they exist.

Sure, I concede the point that there are known and well described and real gods (like in Terry Pratchett's Discworld books- "there are no atheists").

D&D gods are gods, but I guess I expected more of a Bushido type attitude from a thus far Bushido society, or some honor based system rather than a redemption based system. D&D gods are by and large reflections of Greek, Norse, and Roman gods, Aztec gods, Sumerian gods, Celtics gods and the like. They are gods or war and disease, honor and growth, lust and villainy, treachery, lightning, weather and the harvest.

Forgiveness is a very sophisticated concept, and maybe I am just biased in that I am projecting my previous experience with "primal gods" of D&D onto the OotS world. That could be it.

But I guess I should stress I am as certain as anything else my preference is "back to silliness". I'm hoping after this Azure City shindig the strip will become more humerous again (hard to see how now though). The everyone-dying thing is a bigger downer and frowner than serious preachy talk.

BUT.. that is just my opinion, before I get gunned down I know I am in the minority on that point too.

[Tyrmatt]

The Giant refers to Miko's zealotry. She assumes that a paladin only has to fanatically carry out their duties to be the favoured one of the Gods. She doesn't understand that blindly following orders is worse than disobeying her vassal for the greater good. She is so convinced of her own self importance and infallibility that she would never be even considered for it.
To be fair, her falling was a tightrope she had been walking for a very long time. It's entirely likely that she would have lost her powers had she actually killed the Order when she was sent to initially apprehend them.
So yeah, no clouds and halo for the ex-paladin. She's gonna burrrrnnn!

[dehro]

Sure, I concede the point that there are known and well described and real gods (like in Terry Pratchett's Discworld books- "there are no atheists").

D&D gods are gods, but I guess I expected more of a Bushido type attitude from a thus far Bushido society, or some honor based system rather than a redemption based system. D&D gods are by and large reflections of Greek, Norse, and Roman gods, Aztec gods, Sumerian gods, Celtics gods and the like. They are gods or war and disease, honor and growth, lust and villainy, treachery, lightning, weather and the harvest.

Forgiveness is a very sophisticated concept, and maybe I am just biased in that I am projecting my previous experience with "primal gods" of D&D onto the OotS world. That could be it.

But I guess I should stress I am as certain as anything else my preference is "back to silliness". I'm hoping after this Azure City shindig the strip will become more humerous again (hard to see how now though). The everyone-dying thing is a bigger downer and frowner than serious preachy talk.

BUT.. that is just my opinion, before I get gunned down I know I am in the minority on that point too.

I see your point, but still the whole scene was totally in Soon's character and in the "epic" impression he's bound to give.
we are talking about a serious paladine hero, here. of course the funnier strips are enjoyable and maybe more fun to read...but things have to balance out a bit for the sake of the plot and it's coherence. (otherwise every single comic would be solelly based on the gag of the day..and the Giant has already shown that there must be multiple levels of appreciation for his work...not just the gags, but not only the plot either)... we are facing the end of a major battle, and the fall of a stronghold of the "powers of good"...this is bound to rise the drama at least a little bit... downplaying it with a witty gag would be cheap.

therefore, go Soon... you rock!

[Arlanthe]

I see your point, but still the whole scene was totally in Soon's character and in the "epic" impression he's bound to give.
we are talking about a serious paladine hero, here. of course the funnier strips are enjoyable and maybe more fun to read...but things have to balance out a bit for the sake of the plot and it's coherence. (otherwise every single comic would be solelly based on the gag of the day..and the Giant has already shown that there must be multiple levels of appreciation for his work...not just the gags, but not only the plot either)... we are facing the end of a major battle, and the fall of a stronghold of the "powers of good"...this is bound to rise the drama at least a little bit... downplaying it with a witty gag would be cheap.

therefore, go Soon... you rock!

I definitely see your point too. There does need to be balance.

But I mean, 2007 has just been one serious epic thing after another. Massive army built. Soon dies. Miko falls. The army attacks. The walls collapse. Roy dies. Redcloaks revelation. Crazy samurai guy dies. Miko escapes. The gate explodes. Azure City is in ruin. All in a giant tortilla of death, war, and destruction.

I think the balance has tipped too far in favor of "epicness". Epicness so epic I am shocked less and less with each thing. The strip is hardly about the OotS anymore, and the humor has been cut by 80%. I still love the comic, but it definitely isn't the same comic as it was a year ago.

[dehro]

All in a giant tortilla of death, war, and destruction.

I can live with that!