Class and Level Geekery II

[Vargtass]

To Yahoo Serious: "There is no reason to believe..." does not mean "it is therefore true that..."

... so, no conclusive evidence for your thesis.

[Chronos]

This all assumes he doesn't have access to Hold Monster from somewhere else, of course.

I'm not sure where else he could have gotten it from, though. It's certainly not on the standard cleric list, nor in any other domain I've heard of, and most prestige classes don't change the base class' spell list, just advance progression in it. And both Redcloak and the Dark One appear to be lawful, so the Law domain would be a valid choice. We could assume some very obscure or homebrewed domain or class variant, but if we go down that road, we can't really assume anything about any of the characters. Nor is this really comparable to the debate about Durkon's domains, since there, we don't even know exactly what spell Thor's Lightning is (so there are multiple known domains which could fit).

[Kimpire]

Thanks, Kimpire! I've added Listen to the list of Elan's skills.

Hooray! I'm useful!

[DeadmanXI]

I'm not sure where else he could have gotten it from, though. It's certainly not on the standard cleric list, nor in any other domain I've heard of, and most prestige classes don't change the base class' spell list, just advance progression in it. And both Redcloak and the Dark One appear to be lawful, so the Law domain would be a valid choice. We could assume some very obscure or homebrewed domain or class variant, but if we go down that road, we can't really assume anything about any of the characters. Nor is this really comparable to the debate about Durkon's domains, since there, we don't even know exactly what spell Thor's Lightning is (so there are multiple known domains which could fit).

Just covering my bases. D&D isn't really my game, and my knowledge of the rules and possibilities is far from encyclopedic.

[DeadmanXI]

Looking through the thread, I have two more questions:

1. Why does Durkon have Extra Turning? He only uses it three times in the referenced comic, and has not displayed a Charisma penalty. Isn't Charisma 10-11 and no Feat a safer assumption?

2. As many have noted, Miko rather clearly indicates having Power Attack in the following comic:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html

Why doesn't she have it?

[RMS Oceanic]

Looking through the thread, I have two more questions:

1. Why does Durkon have Extra Turning? He only uses it three times in the referenced comic, and has not displayed a Charisma penalty. Isn't Charisma 10-11 and no Feat a safer assumption?

This strip and this strip indicates Durkon has a charisma penalty.

2. As many have noted, Miko rather clearly indicates having Power Attack in the following comic:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html

Why doesn't she have it?

That's a good point. I'd give her Power Attack.

[DeadmanXI]

This strip indicates Durkon has a charisma penalty.

That leads to Strip 374, the one I linked to. It doesn't mention Durkon.

[RMS Oceanic]

Apologies, that was a mistype.

[DeadmanXI]

Apologies, that was a mistype.

No problem. Happens to the best of us.

This strip and this strip indicates Durkon has a charisma penalty.

See, I'd looked at both those already, and they certainly indicate he has a less than stellar modifier, but neither definitively pegs it as less than +0. Hence the question. It seems strange to assume the Feat when there's a very simple explanation that doesn't require it.

[Chronos]

That's a good point. I'd give her Power Attack.

Huh, I thought we'd already decided that she has Power Attack and Cleave (the latter based on her twofer goblin kill outside the throne room).

And while I'll agree that it's plausible that Durkon has a Cha penalty, I also don't think it's been proven.

[Wrecan]

And while I'll agree that it's plausible that Durkon has a Cha penalty, I also don't think it's been proven.

I've got Durkon at 10 or less. At 10, there is no Cha penalty.

[RMS Oceanic]

I've got Durkon at 10 or less. At 10, there is no Cha penalty.

The point he's trying to make is that Clerics get 3+Cha turns a day. Since he only uses three turn attempts, it could be that Durkon has just ten charisma, negating the need for Extra Turning.

On another topic, should we note lack of possessions as and when that's relevant? I was thinking of V having no scrolls or potions as of 452.

[DeadmanXI]

Huh, I thought we'd already decided that she has Power Attack and Cleave (the latter based on her twofer goblin kill outside the throne room).

And while I'll agree that it's plausible that Durkon has a Cha penalty, I also don't think it's been proven.

Actually, from my reading of the thread there was some serious dispute about Cleave, with that being passed off as potentially a mere special effect of multiple attacks. Nobody ever denied Power Attack though.

[Fineous Orlon]

I don't know if you guys are using Wrecan's stats in the first post still, but someone in another thread mentioned Roy's strength at 17+ [as Wrecan has it in the first post in this thread], and I think that is too low.

Roy has got to have at least a 19, and justifiably a 20 in the 5th comic.

He's carrying Durkon, so he's faster than Durkon [while running], so he's carrying no more than a medium load [running x4 instead of x3 at heavy load] and is wearing no heavier than medium armor [running x4 normal move instead of x3 in heavy armor, which Durkon is wearing [full plate, strip 25]].

Roy is probably wearing Breastplate [30 lbs, lowest weight metallic and best medium armor] and is carrying his own greatsword [8 lbs].

So basic Roy is 38 lbs of gear.

Basic Durkon is 50 lbs or armor, 6 lbs of light steel shield [but I would argue for 15 lbs of heavy steel shield], 5 lbs of warhammer and a minimum of 134 lbs of male dwarf, for a Durkon minimum total of 195 lbs.

Roy is carrying a minimum of 233 lbs of extra stuff and is carrying no more than a medium load [again, he is faster than Durkon would be running alone].

233 lbs is the largest weight a 19 strength character can carry and still have a medium load.

If Roy is carrying any food [shown in DCF, 34a], water, treasure [money] or even an unused bedroll [shown in strip 14, why would he picture himself potentially in one if he did not have it with him], Roy must have be carrying more than 233 lbs while only carrying a medium load, so he must have a 20 strength as early as strip 5.

Additionally, Durkon is also shown carrying rations in DCF 34a, and may have a heavy, not a light, steel shield.

I think a case can be made for Roy carrying at least 1 of these extra things, so:

I would propose 20 strength in strip 5, when Rich says they are 7th to 9th level [8th or 9th works best for a 20 strength], and probably even higher when he hit 12th level [probably 21 now].

Even without any of those small extra carried items, Roy has to have at least a 19 strength as early as strip 5.

[DeadmanXI]

I don't know if you guys are using Wrecan's stats in the first post still, but someone in another thread mentioned Roy's strength at 17+ [as Wrecan has it in the first post in this thread], and I think that is too low.

Roy has got to have at least a 19, and justifiably a 20 in the 5th comic.

He's carrying Durkon, so he's faster than Durkon [while running], so he's carrying no more than a medium load [running x4 instead of x3 at heavy load] and is wearing no heavier than medium armor [running x4 normal move instead of x3 in heavy armor, which Durkon is wearing [full plate, strip 25]].

Roy is probably wearing Breastplate [30 lbs, lowest weight metallic and best medium armor] and is carrying his own greatsword [8 lbs].

So basic Roy is 38 lbs of gear.

Basic Durkon is 50 lbs or armor, 6 lbs of light steel shield [but I would argue for 15 lbs of heavy steel shield], 5 lbs of warhammer and a minimum of 134 lbs of male dwarf, for a Durkon minimum total of 195 lbs.

Roy is carrying a minimum of 233 lbs of extra stuff and is carrying no more than a medium load [again, he is faster than Durkon would be running alone].

233 lbs is the largest weight a 19 strength character can carry and still have a medium load.

If Roy is carrying any food [shown in DCF, 34a], water, treasure [money] or even an unused bedroll [shown in strip 14, why would he picture himself potentially in one if he did not have it with him], Roy must have be carrying more than 233 lbs while only carrying a medium load, so he must have a 20 strength as early as strip 5.

Additionally, Durkon is also shown carrying rations in DCF 34a, and may have a heavy, not a light, steel shield.

I think a case can be made for Roy carrying at least 1 of these extra things, so:

I would propose 20 strength in strip 5, when Rich says they are 7th to 9th level [8th or 9th works best for a 20 strength], and probably even higher when he hit 12th level [probably 21 now].

Even without any of those small extra carried items, Roy has to have at least a 19 strength as early as strip 5.

Or the Run feat. He'd still be faster than Durkon that way, and, especially early on, as others have mentioned, posessing the Feat would have made alot of sense considering the Order's modus operandi.

[TroyXavier]

The 17 comes from the amount of poison Roy took from the trap. Don't remember which strip but it was fairly early.

[DeadmanXI]

The 17 comes from the amount of poison Roy took from the trap. Don't remember which strip but it was fairly early.

It's this one. Though that's not really definitive, since some of those might have removed more than one point (in Strip 36, they're referred to as "Poison" and "Even Nastier Poison").


On a completely unrelated note this strip and several others seem to indicate Belkar has the Scent ability or something like it. I have no idea how he would've gotten it, but it seems clear he got SOMETHING.

Also, on a random and pedantic note, as a 13th (or 12th) Level Human Fighter, shouldn't Roy have 13 Feats, not 12?

[rwald]

A slightly unrelated note, but apparently in 4e succubus and erinyes are going to be merged into a single LG creature. So all those complaints about Sabine's race are going to go away.

[RMS Oceanic]

Another thing: Xykon is not noted as having the Maximize Spell feat, which he uses against Soon Kim. That needs correcting.

Also, does anybody agree with me that Pompey should only be level three or four? On a par with Julia?

[Wrecan]

The 17 comes from the amount of poison Roy took from the trap. Don't remember which strip but it was fairly early.

No, it doesn't. Roy was poisoned 17 times with Str poison. That has nothing to do with what Roy's Str is. We got Roy's Str from an analysis of him carrying Durkon.

[DeadmanXI]

Also, does anybody agree with me that Pompey should only be level three or four? On a par with Julia?

I don't know, unless you assume all (or most) of his buffs on Sabine were Level 1, I think he needs to be a bit higher than that, as he casts Summon Monster II twice in the one battle we see him in, in addition to buffing her.

[Vargtass]

No, it doesn't. Roy was poisoned 17 times with Str poison. That has nothing to do with what Roy's Str is. We got Roy's Str from an analysis of him carrying Durkon.

Wrecan, concerning this matter, can you have a look at Fineous Orlon's analysis a few posts above and make a judgement call on that alternative analysis?

[Wrecan]

My response to Fineous Orlan can be found here, magically written two months ago when last we discussed Roy's Strength. :)

[Kreistor]

My response to Fineous Orlan can be found here, magically written two months ago when last we discussed Roy's Strength. :)

It might also be because the Giant thinks it was funnny. Humour trumps rules. There's no certainty in that strip that the Giant looked up the encumbrance rules. Many DM's don't even bother with those rules, just eyeballing the effect of encumbrance.

[DeadmanXI]

To refresh people's memories/draw attention:

On a completely unrelated note this strip and several others seem to indicate Belkar has the Scent ability or something like it. I have no idea how he would've gotten it, but it seems clear he got SOMETHING.

Also, on a random and pedantic note, as a 13th (or 12th) Level Human Fighter, shouldn't Roy have 13 Feats, not 12?

On another random note in this comic Xykon uses Maximize Spell. It should go on his Feat List.

On a final pedantic note, why does Haley have a Shortbow on her equipment list? As far as I know, we've only ever seen her use one bow.

[Fineous Orlon]

I don't know if you guys are using Wrecan's stats in the first post still, but someone in another thread mentioned Roy's strength at 17+ [as Wrecan has it in the first post in this thread], and I think that is too low.

My response to Fineous Orlan can be found here, magically written two months ago when last we discussed Roy's Strength. :)

Oh, come on. You are using an answer two months ago, post #1188 on page 40 to answer post 1394 on page 47 this morning.

If you don't want any one else to play, just say so.

I did ask if the first post was the one to go by, and mentioned many issues not discussed [other than by implication] in that post. You referenced that same sequence [4 and 5 same sequence], but given what is visible in that strip and the surrounding strips, 17 is too low.

Roy has a functioning strength of no less than 20 as of strip 4 and 5, when he is 7th to 9th level. 8th or higher works best for native 20 strength in a human.

It may be magic items, it may not.

The feat Run may be involved [allowing for a lower strength], with a funny, in-theme reason, but running as an action does not always work in a dungeon, due to the need for straight-line movement to get the best benefit of the extra possible distance. Breaking the fourth wall by implying that all left to right or right to left movement, or railroad plots in general, strongly imply straight-line movement would be funny, and not beyond The Giant. However, we have seen forward [towards the reader, Roy finding the starmetal chunk] movement, and doors and portals on the back wall, so that's probably not it.

I would think the Run feat would be mentioned directly, as the Order runs a lot, and likes to comment on their own tactics.

Roy having a strength of 20 is simpler, and locks the Giant into fewer requirements, and the Giant seems to want not to be tied down to character specifics.

Roy's a big fighter who carries the dwarf, therefore Roy has the strength to do so.

I realize my conservatism, if you will, is based on simplicity, and Wrecan's conservatism is based on there being other possibilities.

YMMV.

[Fineous Orlon]

It might also be because the Giant thinks it was funnny. Humour trumps rules. There's no certainty in that strip that the Giant looked up the encumbrance rules. Many DM's don't even bother with those rules, just eyeballing the effect of encumbrance.

That's true, but the geekery aspect of this thread is that the Giant is defining the characters by what he shows us in the character's capabilities.

Given what he shows Roy as capable of...

Rich says that early on the party is 7th to 9th.

I have to admit, I did not picture Roy as a maxxed strength human fighter, but at 8th or 9th level, it is the easiest explanation.

If he's 7th, the feat Run or some magic item, like a strength booster.

[Wrecan]

Oh, come on. You are using an answer two months ago, post #1188 on page 40 to answer post 1394 on page 47 this morning.

I didn't mean to be short. I apologize.

A point of information and one concession

• Charging requires straight-line movement. Running does not.
• With the Run Feat, he can run 80' per round with Medium armor and medium encumbrance. The least that Roy is carrying is (breastplate (30) + greatsword (8) + bedroll (5) + dwarf (134) + full plate (50) + steel shield (15) + warhammer (5) = 247). That is as you said, a Str of 20. Even if this is from a magic item, it should be reflected on his sheet. So I will make that correction.

[TroyXavier]

No, it doesn't. Roy was poisoned 17 times with Str poison. That has nothing to do with what Roy's Str is. We got Roy's Str from an analysis of him carrying Durkon.

Noted. Still the poison at least put his strength at 17. Not that I care, it's all abstract in the end anyways.

[nosajtpno]

Noted. Still the poison at least put his strength at 17. Not that I care, it's all abstract in the end anyways.

I'm not seeing how the poison narrows down his STR at all. If his STR was anything from 1 to 17, being poisoned 17 times would give him 0 STR all the same; there is no such thing as negative STR. If his STR was 18+, he could still be reduced to 0 STR, since we're not sure how what kind of poison was used and how strong the poison is. 17 instances of Dragon Bile poisoning for instance (3d6 initial STR dmg) could reduce just about anyone to 0 STR.