Dwagon Expwess

[Arkenputtyknife]

Just a crazy thought I had a while back, which made me wonder just how crazy Erfworld's rules might be.

We know that it's possible to use up a mount's full move, change mounts, and continue. Parson did this in his hit & run attack on the siege train, and Jillian intends to use it to catch Stanley. The question is, is there any limit on how many times you can switch to a fresh mount in a turn?

Imagine a series of staging posts scattered around Erfworld, perhaps in a hexagonal grid with distances of maybe 50 hexes between posts. Need to get something to the other side of the world in a hurry? Give it to Stanley's dwagon couriers. Unless there is such a limit, he could get that package there within a turn — same day service. Business opportunity!

Has anything like this ever come up in any comparable game?

[WoodenTable]

Just a crazy thought I had a while back, which made me wonder just how crazy Erfworld's rules might be.

We know that it's possible to use up a mount's full move, change mounts, and continue. Parson did this in his hit & run attack on the siege train, and Jillian intends to use it to catch Stanley. The question is, is there any limit on how many times you can switch to a fresh mount in a turn?

Imagine a series of staging posts scattered around Erfworld, perhaps in a hexagonal grid with distances of maybe 50 hexes between posts. Need to get something to the other side of the world in a hurry? Give it to Stanley's dwagon couriers. Unless there is such a limit, he could get that package there within a turn — same day service. Business opportunity!

Has anything like this ever come up in any comparable game?

There was something like that in Civilization 3. Transport ships can carry stuff without using up the movement of the carried units, so people could form a bucket brigade across long oceans and such. Just move the full transport onto the empty one's square, swap the transported units (which costs no move, since they aren't leaving the square), and send the fresh transport on its way... to meet another transport.

Opinions were divided on whether that was a bug or a useful feature. I've heard a few people call it a cheat, actually.

[Shalewind]

Imagine a series of staging posts scattered around Erfworld, perhaps in a hexagonal grid with distances of maybe 50 hexes between posts. Need to get something to the other side of the world in a hurry? Give it to Stanley's dwagon couriers. Unless there is such a limit, he could get that package there within a turn — same day service. Business opportunity!

It’s a great exploit from a mechanical point of view but seems fairly easy to counter. All you have to do is break one part of the web and until your opponent gets a new set of mounts to a checkpoint – his supply chain is broken.

But it’s an interesting idea. Seems that control over the ground terrain might grant one side logistical aerial superiority as well.

[SteveMB]

It’s a great exploit from a mechanical point of view but seems fairly easy to counter. All you have to do is break one part of the web and until your opponent gets a new set of mounts to a checkpoint – his supply chain is broken.

The concept of a "supply chain" for ordinary unit maintenance doesn't seem to be relevant. However, moving things like scarse magic items to where they're most useful at the moment would certainly be useful....

[Shalewind]

The concept of a "supply chain" for ordinary unit maintenance doesn't seem to be relevant. However, moving things like scarse magic items to where they're most useful at the moment would certainly be useful....

Or moving a powerful unit or warlord into position after one is lost could also be critical.

[Lamech]

Sounds like an easily disrupt able portal that can't be used off turn. Note the other people using portals on page 13 Panel 5. Also it would have a carrying limit. It might be cheaper though. Also turns could be timed to prevent that.

[Arkenputtyknife]

It’s a great exploit from a mechanical point of view but seems fairly easy to counter. All you have to do is break one part of the web and until your opponent gets a new set of mounts to a checkpoint – his supply chain is broken.

I wasn't thinking of a chain so much as a mesh. It would then be a bit like the Internet: break it at one place and the couriers just go around. And it would probably be more useful in peace time than in war time — assuming there's such a thing as peace time on Erfworld.

[Shalewind]

I wasn't thinking of a chain so much as a mesh. It would then be a bit like the Internet: break it at one place and the couriers just go around. And it would probably be more useful in peace time than in war time — assuming there's such a thing as peace time on Erfworld.

I see what you are saying. I think the unit volumes involved for a web would have a high upkeep and are only feasible in peace time (seems far too vulnerable to raids unless you get really expensive). You’d also have to have a pretty big payout from clients to bankroll it. Unless there is a low cost, high carry, high speed flyer unit available? Still a nifty idea.

And I agree, I think peacetime is pretty rare.

The presence of Charlie seems to indicate that some factions have figured out some pretty effective solutions to game mechanic problems – they just charge out the boop for them.

[Radar]

Quite interesting idea for a big buissness there. It doesn't have to work only during peace tough. One just have to be neutral in any conflict and too usefull to any side, to be ever threatened. Success would be more a metter of politics here. Also it would be hard to monopolise the market.

There was something like that in Civilization 3. Transport ships can carry stuff without using up the movement of the carried units, so people could form a bucket brigade across long oceans and such. Just move the full transport onto the empty one's square, swap the transported units (which costs no move, since they aren't leaving the square), and send the fresh transport on its way... to meet another transport.

Opinions were divided on whether that was a bug or a useful feature. I've heard a few people call it a cheat, actually.

Also in Heroes of Might and Magic (all except 4) one used supply chains to transport units (which don't have individual movement - they allways stick to the hero), but the upper limit of active heroes prevented it from being overused.

[Arkenputtyknife]

Quite interesting idea for a big buissness there. It doesn't have to work only during peace tough. One just have to be neutral in any conflict and too usefull to any side, to be ever threatened.

Mm… don't know about that. Bridges are typically neutral in any conflict and useful to any side, but they still get blown up during wars.

Or, as the Russian premiere put it in Whoops Apocalypse, “When World War 3 comes, nootral countries will have the same options as that steak: rare, medium, or well done.”

[Gathers Scrolls]

Depending on the circumstances, having a 'highway' like that would have the same effect as playing chess with a king's piece, that suddenly has the movement capabilities of a queen's or more for at least one turn.
It could pull the advantage over to one side pretty boop quickly!

[Sam K]

Its possible that switching mounts uses up some of your movement, so it cant be done indefinently.

While a mesh of mount changing posts would likely be doable, keep in mind that high movement units are probably expensive. If you dont keep defences at each 'node' they become extremely easy to overrun. If you DO keep defences at each node it becomes even more expensive.

A system like that would only be viable if alot of people could use it(it wouldn't be worth it for the odd emergency), but that means you may need more than one flyer at each node (unless you use eyemancers to watch which nodes are 'free').

Keeping in mind that most emergencies in erfworld would be of a military nature, the huge cost of such a system, and the vulnerability to attack, makes it seem fairly useless in practice.

[thubby]

there is likely a move cost to mounting, there usually is in war games. still a great idea, set up properly you could have multiple routes to any given area.
the people internet.

[SteveMB]

there is likely a move cost to mounting, there usually is in war games.

The limit can't be all that restrictive, though, or Parson's plan to have the warlords switch out wounded mounts during the siege raids wouldn't have worked.

[fendrin]

We know that it's possible to use up a mount's full move, change mounts, and continue.
<snip>
Jillian intends to use it to catch Stanley.

Er, what? I don't really see this as working if all the units depart from the column... even if they are staggered, only Jillian and her latest mount would get to the attack point, not the entire air force. We already know that Jillian, a top gwiffon, and a flock of Orlies can't take down 5 un-led dwagons, so Jillian and one Gwiffon of any quality would not be able to take out 20-odd dwagons, 3 KISS, Stanley, and the Foolamancer. Such a plan would be suicide...

Has anything like this ever come up in any comparable game?

I've seen it done in D&D (Commoner Rail Gun, Quick Mount abuse), but D&D isn't intended to be a RTS game, so it's not directly comparable.

[Arkenputtyknife]

Er, what? I don't really see this as working if all the units depart from the column... even if they are staggered, only Jillian and her latest mount would get to the attack point, not the entire air force. We already know that Jillian, a top gwiffon, and a flock of Orlies can't take down 5 un-led dwagons, so Jillian and one Gwiffon of any quality would not be able to take out 20-odd dwagons, 3 KISS, Stanley, and the Foolamancer. Such a plan would be suicide...

When Jillian and Ansom talked about this, she had already used up some or all of her mount's move to scout GK and return. She then said that if she took the mounts with (IIRC) 26 or better move, she could head off Stanley and croak him.

In other words, she's already done Stage 1 this turn and is about to embark on Stage 2. The fact that Stage 1 was a round trip is not important.

[fendrin]

When Jillian and Ansom talked about this, she had already used up some or all of her mount's move to scout GK and return. She then said that if she took the mounts with (IIRC) 26 or better move, she could head off Stanley and croak him.

In other words, she's already done Stage 1 this turn and is about to embark on Stage 2. The fact that Stage 1 was a round trip is not important.

Jillian says: "Next turn, if I take all of the air units with 26 move and above..."
Key phrases:
"Next turn" indicates she will not be taking the units until after the current turn has ended, and thus her mount's move will refresh.
"Air units" not explicitly mounts.

[Arkenputtyknife]

Jillian says: "Next turn, if I take all of the air units with 26 move and above..."
Key phrases:
"Next turn" indicates she will not be taking the units until after the current turn has ended, and thus her mount's move will refresh.
"Air units" not explicitly mounts.

Whoops, my bad, you're right. How'd I miss that “next turn” bit? *sigh* Memo to self: don't post without checking.

The basic premise of the thread stands, since it was demonstrated by Parson's warlords in the hit and run tactic. The bit about air units rather than mounts — true also, but again it doesn't affect the basic idea of the thread. Just blows a few unhappy holes in my posts… grr!

For the record, if it wasn't already clear, I wasn't proposing that Jillian use a chain of staged mounts to pass Stanley, only that I was expecting her to switch mounts and carry on this turn.

Hmm… this actually changes things in another thread. If Jillian isn't heading off until next turn, Stanley will have had 2 full turns of movement to go wherever he's going; that's something of the order of 80 move total — more in fact, because she said “head him off”, which implies that he wouldn't have reached Faq by then, suggesting a total distance of maybe around 100 hexes as the dwagon flies. This completely blows away my thought that Jillian could (under the right circumstances) catch up with him even without bringing terrain into the equation. Apparently she knows the terrain so well that she can go places four times faster than Stanley for a given move.

[Moechi_Vill]

A system like this will cater more to domestic markets and similar favorable situations to be cost efficient.