121 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 109

[DCR]

Apparently there's an archon applying some very high-tech methods of espionage on Lord Hampster. Security breach!

I'm glad someone's paying attention, because I completely missed that!
Awesome sauce! Oh, and while Gobwin Knob battle is great stuff, I think I wanna see what Stanley and Jack do and or how they do vs Vin and Co.

[SteveMB]

Looks like Webinar and his girlfriend survived. They sure look angry...

Downright burned up, in fact.

(I'll be here all week; please remember to tip your waitress....)

[Goshen]

"A wise man gets more use from his enemies than a fool does from his friends."

Possible translation: Stanley isn't going to be of much help. (Notice the Fool is looking at Stanley with what appears to be an expression of worry or concern).

I agree. I also think Stanley would wreck any chances Parson would have of winning by taking over and micro-managing again.

[Vesilasi]

What, two pages and nobody has adapted the Ikea Gobwin into an avatar? Chop chop people!

With the sword:


With the battle cry:


For anyone who wants them.

Edit: Larger pic of without IKEA

[CaptC]

Just noticed: Maggie seems nonplussed by Jack's answers, indicating that he doesn't always talk in verse or seem so obtuse. It would have been a perfect opportunity for her to just say, "Don't worry, warlord. He always talks that way."

Which indicates to me that Jack didn't just miraculously get over the damage from breaking the link. But the fact that Jack has changed his speaking style seems a powerful indicator that he is getting better.

I find it simpler to believe that Jack is "Just Another Named Unit (tm)". He is getting over the already-explained damage. He's not plotting revenge or other new plot twists. He isn't pretending to be insane, he was actually driven insane. Other than that, his motivations are bound by duty as is every other unit in Stanley's employ. But there's still room for personal initiative on his part: Stanley is going to order Jack to do one thing, while Parson has (implicitly) ordered Jack to do another. What will Jack do?

[Tundar]

IKEA is a great battlecry!!

Very interesting comic.

[Chadwick]

Quoting parson: We try things, occasionally they even work.


Ah, a statement that would often works for me!

[ReccaSquirrel]

Which indicates to me that Jack didn't just miraculously get over the damage from breaking the link. But the fact that Jack has changed his speaking style seems a powerful indicator that he is getting better.

Note: Jack is sitting right next to Stanley. If he is back to normal, he isn't going to say, "Sure, I'll lure Stanley right to you"

[PresidentEnder]

So... how about Jack was upset by Jillian's rebuffs to his advances. So, when Wanda's predictamancy saw Stanley nearby, Jack dropped the veil and illusion-ed up a reason to attack FAQ, even if it wasn't Stanley's original target. This whole thing is Jack's revenge on Jill (ian).

[selgnij]

On the whole why hasn't auto-engage forced a fight and so how can the forces be led anywhere bit.

The way I figure Erfworld works is that you need Move to change hexes, but can move around inside your hex to your heart's content. So units can move around GK and so can run from battle since they are just running around a single hex.

I'm assuming a couple of limitations on this though:

1) Enemy units at least, cannot change zones off turn. No strong proof either way to show if this extends to friendly units.

2) This would just be a total guess, but I doubt units can change zones even on their turn while engaged. (Unless warlord led)

[Vorkuta]

My take:

"A wise man can see more from the bottom of a well than a fool can from a mountaintop."

The Fool is talking about Parson. He understands the situation, dispite being new and without his "table" resources than the fool, Stanley does. Stanley is currently riding high with a bunch of dragons.

"A wise man gets more use from his enemies than a fool does from his friends."

Again, the wise man is Parson and the fool is Stanley. Stanley has allies but doesn't manage them well. Parson is a great manager of what little he has, including Stanley's stack (I anticipate), which will be a factor in future strips.

[Sky_Schemer]

There is no need for an exception to (the autoattack rule) here;
- Gobwin knob is all one hex since it requires zero move to shift forces around between the tunnels, wall and garrison.
- There are warlords in the same hex, although not the same stack.
- The lead gobwin is not retreating, but attacking via the strategy of "lure into traps" :).

I think SteveMB is right. What you describe here is way too complicated compared to the very simple explanation that scouts are exceptions to the auto-attack rule.

Think about it. They're scouts. What would be the point of having auto-attack apply to them? That would defeat the whole purpose of scouting.

[CaptC]

Note: Jack is sitting right next to Stanley. If he is back to normal, he isn't going to say, "Sure, I'll lure Stanley right to you"

Stanley is not reacting to Jack at all. I took that to mean Stanley couldn't hear the thinkagram directed to Jack, but your point could be correct. It could be that Stanley just thinks Jack is raving and ignoring him. (The author's could have easily handled that, with Stanley just saying something like, "You are driving me NUTS with that babble.")

So I think Parson and Jack just talked to each other without Stanley hearing anything. *shrug*. YMMV. Either way, it doesn't really change anything. Maggie's reaction is the more important - she presumably knows how Jack normally conversed, and she doesn't think it was the way he is conversing now.

[teratorn]

Nice touch of the archon sending thinkagrams to Charlie about what Parson is doing.

I am with Steve and a few other forumers on this, the scout is ahead of the main stack, giving its info to the stack or to Sizemore, so that the stacks are protected and not in contact with the enemy.

I don't expect it to engage, look how he is hiding in the 5th panel. It makes sense, to spy you need stealth, being forced to engage would break that. I also expect scouts to be crap in combat.

Parson says, "if they pursue, lead them" so they do run from engagements and can work to guide enemies into traps, either by leading them to gobwin troops, or to Sizemore, or to a tunel which will collapse (and then the scout also dies, but hey Parson is ruthless now).

Parson managed to somehow replicate the donut of doom, although this time retreating is not an option. Good intel is more of an issue now (this would have been easy with the viewing table) and use of scouts is a clever option, probably quite unusual in Erfworld (a bit like using casters in the battle front).

Dora lost her mount? I guess she could be the one behind Webinar but it's not clear that even that one is mounted.

[dr pepper]

I tried, but parts kept falling off.

[Vince3]

Hopefully Jack can now make things interesting in the Tool/Transylvito and Jillian fight.

[CaptC]

I think SteveMB is right. What you describe here is way too complicated compared to the very simple explanation that scouts are exceptions to the auto-attack rule.

Think about it. They're scouts. What would be the point of having auto-attack apply to them? That would defeat the whole purpose of scouting.

Sometimes game systems have specialized scout units. It's moot in this case, we see no scout units on the Gobwin Knob order of battle, we just see gobwin infantry. Perhaps gobwin scouts wouldn't be called out separately. But then again, that's moot, too.

In fog of war games, I often send a lone infantryman out to see what is going on, rather than build specialized and expensive scouts. The infantryman has autoengage rules and he rushes superior enemy forces all the time. He dies stupidly - but I get the information I need to plan what to do with the rest of my forces. "Newly Ruthless Parson (tm)" would likely spend ALL of his (mostly level 1) gobwins just to get Sizemore to the right place.

So: Scouts with auto-engage rules are just fine, if they are cheap enough. Gobwins look to be VERY cheap. This dead horse doesn't need any more beating - nobody, especially Parson, is interested in saving gobwin scouts. Their PURPOSE is to die horribly while finding out where the enemy is.

[SteveMB]

Stanley is not reacting to Jack at all. I took that to mean Stanley couldn't hear the thinkagram directed to Jack, but your point could be correct. It could be that Stanley just thinks Jack is raving and ignoring him. (The author's could have easily handled that, with Stanley just saying something like, "You are driving me NUTS with that babble.")

Even without a comment from Stanley, I think it's clear that he's developed the habit of ignoring Jack, in order to protect his own sanity.

However, if Jack started to talk normally, Stanley might notice. Thus, it's possible that he has at least somewhat recovered, and speaks in riddles to hide that fact. Or he could still be deranged.

EDIT: Another hint that Stanley is ignoring Jack -- the dwagons look normal (i.e. he didn't even bother trying to get Jack to veil them when the turn began).

[ReccaSquirrel]

Nice touch of the archon sending thinkagrams to Charlie about what Parson is doing.

Where the *blooop* are you getting this from? Panel or it didn't happen.

[fendrin]

I think SteveMB is right. What you describe here is way too complicated compared to the very simple explanation that scouts are exceptions to the auto-attack rule.

Think about it. They're scouts. What would be the point of having auto-attack apply to them? That would defeat the whole purpose of scouting.

The bats are scouts, yet they were forced to engage the dwagons when encountering the dwagon ring.

So what has changed?

1. scouts: no change
2. led by warlord: possible change, if the entire hex count's as led and not just the warlord's stack
3. location: definite change

Let's look at #3, as we know that the location has changed.
We know that each zone has it's own rules of engagement.
We don't know what the tunnel's RoE are, but it could play a role.

More likely...

From the same klog, we know that within the city units can redeploy without expending move. Thus the scouts could be 'redeploying' from solo to a stack (or to the garrison, or the walls).

[Lamech]

Hey wait a tick...
"See if Sizemore is ready for the gobwins yet." So Sizemore has been prepping something nasty, a tee hee hee... Does this mean Parson has an unspoken plan guarantee?

[Vossik]

of they city,
It's simpler then that.

As pointed out in Klog 4, as Chief Warlord Parson's leadership bonus extends to all units "of [his] capital." If we interpret that to mean "within the city itself," and given that Klog 11 states that for combat purposes the tunnels are an intrinsic part of the city, it's not unreasonable to suggest that all GK units in the tunnels no matter how they are divided into stacks are assumed to be "led" by Parson and therefore eligible to engage or not on his orders This however does not apply to Webinar or Ansom, as they are not operating within their ow city. It's a powerful advantage to city defense, but defensive advantages are not at all uncommon in such games, otherwise sieges become trivial.

Quoted For Truth people need to read this. >.> Also it is stated that in defense of a city units can be moved instantly but attackers cannot. It is not a single hex, however for movement purposes it can be treated as one by Parson.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0109.html

[fendrin]

Where the *blooop* are you getting this from? Panel or it didn't happen.

Panel 3 of today's strip shows an Archon peering into the tower. While we have no evidence of a thinkagram going on, the hand positions are such that it is possible.

To me though, it looks as if she is simply shielding her eyes from ambient light so that she can see through the glass better.

[ericgrau]

He's a foolmancer, I'd guess that they speak in riddles which will make it interesting to see how he tries to convince Stanley to come home.

What would be even better is if we get to see how great of a foolmancer Jack really is by him using his foolmancy to trick Stanley into going home...

Nah, it's an obvious reference to the fool in Shakespeare's King Lear.

Spoiler

Show

Turned out the fool was the wisest of them all, if you just paid attention, and most people around him were fools. I think you gotta take Stanley away to get him to "snap out of it", or accept that he is already sane and find a way to work with it.

The difference is that this fool seems to be saying irrelevant (?) sayings when King Lear's fool's sayings were relevant if you looked into them. So only time will tell whether the comic author is going that deep into this fool or not.

And now I've sparked speculation of what the fool(amancer)'s sayings mean in regard to Parson.

[Sky_Schemer]

The bats are scouts, yet they were forced to engage the dwagons when encountering the dwagon ring.

I see it more that the dwagons engaged the bats, not that the bats were forced to attack. If we follow from the "scouts are special" rule, a lot of this just makes sense intuitively. Far more so than the assuptions about GK being a single hex, having special rules for being garrison, etc., all of which require complicated explanations about how leadership bonuses and led stacks work.

[fendrin]

I see it more that the dwagons engaged the bats, not that the bats were forced to attack.

Then what stops the heavies from engaging the gobwin scouts? In both cases you have a scout going up against a non-scout.

Remember too, Parson's orders are formed without knowing precisely how his enemies' stacks are composed, so enemy warlords can not be a factor in how it's supposed to work.

If we follow from the "scouts are special" rule, a lot of this just makes sense intuitively. Far more so than the assuptions about GK being a single hex, having special rules for being garrison, etc., all of which require complicated explanations about how leadership bonuses and led stacks work.

Yes, things often work out easier when you start with a faulty premise.

[Kasavin]

Anyone else notice how big a boop Weibnar is commiting? He sees a scout fleeing, and he amasses his forces to pursue it. Despite just surviving first hand the kind of diabolical traps are in the tunnels. He has to realize there's a good chance he's being lead into another trap, or he's an idiot, which I didn't think he was.

As for his survival odds, I'd say good. If nothing else, capturing him and his girl gives Parson a bargaining chip and a source of intelligence now that his lookamancer is croacked.

[Gamebird]

Webinar has been portrayed as the sort of guy who would get angry and then charge ahead after what had made him angry. (it's a common Jetstone failing, apparently) It's also important that Webinar seemed to think of the tunnel fighting, without other support, as a possible suicide. That would tend to make him think less about consequences.

The way I read the scout thing is flavor text, just like if someone described their parry/thrust/riposte in great detail in D&D. "Yeah, yeah, yeah, so you hit. Now roll damage..." The scout's greater intelligence-gathering capacity is the in-world demonstration of the mechanic of Parson's warlord leadership bonus.

I also figure that calling a unit a "scout" just means it's alone and has been tasked primarily with gathering information instead of holding territory or attacking foes.

[SteveMB]

I also figure that calling a unit a "scout" just means it's alone and has been tasked primarily with gathering information instead of holding territory or attacking foes.

"When scouting units send back intel, that's Natural Thinkamancy." Apparently, units that have inherent scout functions (as opposed to ordinary units that are sent on scout missions) have special communication abilities (like Vinny's bats sending him a bat's-eye view).

The idea that scouts don't follow the usual auto-engage rules is a speculation on my part -- it seems to fit a few things in the comic, but isn't actual established fact. If it's correct, then it would refer to actual inherent-scout-function units -- ordinary infantry sent out in front of the main force would still auto-engage if it bumped into anything.

[Draz74]

LOL, that's the way I play games. Come up with a hundred plans, and go with the one that works. Of course that means that even if you win, you've got a 99% failure rate, which is not spectacular.

Ask Edison how he invented the light bulb sometime.

Or any good photographer how they get so many good pictures.