Erfworld 130 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 117

[teratorn]

A lot of you people are predicting Wnada's bonus to make the undead overwhelm Ansom. You are forgeting that he can just target Wanda to take out her bonus and make the undead dramaticly weaker.

She just needs to surround herself with a group of twolls, or even better a few knights. I fear the most for uncroaked Dora, I hope she lasts a few more turns, she's great.

[fendrin]

A lot of you people are predicting Wnada's bonus to make the undead overwhelm Ansom. You are forgeting that he can just target Wanda to take out her bonus and make the undead dramaticly weaker.

No.

Unlike Jillian here, he does not have any support to occupy Wanda's aerial uncroaked. He would be forced to ka-brain one of them, at which point he would be vulnerable to the rest.

EDIT: Ninja'd, but also no.

She just needs to surround herself with a group of twolls, or even better a few knights. I fear the most for uncroaked Dora, I hope she lasts a few more turns, she's great.

Because Ansom is flying, he could cherry-pick non-aerial targets. That is the real importance of Wanda's flying force, I think.

[teratorn]

No.

Because Ansom is flying, he could cherry-pick non-aerial targets.

Wanda is short, twolls are huge, she can easily use them for cover. Ansom still needs to kill them before he can reach her.

[Godskook]

To be fair, he's only been in battle twice and only "saved" Jillian once--twice if you count her captivity in Orgchart. Jillian and Vinny have both see more action.

...that we have seen. We've been told little of Ansom's warhistory, except that he makes a habit of rescuing Jillian. We have no way of knowing how many battles he has fought and led. If I'm right, and he is leading the coalition because he's the highest leveled warlord present, then he must have seen a good piece of action to become so.

Teratorn's idea has a precedence in Sizemore's hiding behind the stalagmite in the tunnels.

[DevilDan]

Have we even settled how close she needs to be to the uncroaked units to give them some of that "huge" bonus? After all, every unit in a hex gets a bonus with an overlord present.

[SteveMB]

Wanda is short, twolls are huge, she can easily use them for cover. Ansom still needs to kill them before he can reach her.

We don't know if the "simple" mechanics of Erfworld makes such distinctions. Given that we do know that flyers with a commander can selectively engage non-flyers, federin may be right about her new group of flying uncroaked being critical to defending herself against a decapitation strike.

...that we have seen. We've been told little of Ansom's warhistory, except that he makes a habit of rescuing Jillian. We have no way of knowing how many battles he has fought and led. If I'm right, and he is leading the coalition because he's the highest leveled warlord present, then he must have seen a good piece of action to become so.

"Ansom, with his long history of personally riding to her rescue..." (emphasis added)

Clearly, it's happened enough times that Parson, Wanda, and Stanley are utterly confident that it will happen again. (Well, Wanda may have her own agenda, but she does seem to have the record on her side.)

[fendrin]

federin may be right

Yeah, and I might be too.

[DevilDan]

...that we have seen. We've been told little of Ansom's warhistory, except that he makes a habit of rescuing Jillian. We have no way of knowing how many battles he has fought and led. If I'm right, and he is leading the coalition because he's the highest leveled warlord present, then he must have seen a good piece of action to become so.

I'm sure that he's the strongest one present, if only because the other kingdoms wouldn't sent an overlord/heir and would be content to send smaller contingents under the lead of less powerful warlords. He is likely the most experienced warlord in the RCC.

He might simply be leading the coalition, however, because he presumably took a central role in its formation and because Jetstone sent the most troops.

[teratorn]

We don't know if the "simple" mechanics of Erfworld makes such distinctions.

In fact we do know. Jillian uses her gwiffons as shields to protect her from the dwagon's fire. So you can shield yourself with other units. Not that I don't expect the archon to play an important role to take Ansom out of the picture.

[DevilDan]

In fact we do know. Jillian uses her gwiffons as shields to protect her from the dwagon's fire. So you can shield yourself with other units. Not that I don't expect the archon to play an important role to take Ansom out of the picture.

It always seemed to me as if they were distracting/engaging the dwagon, not necessarily throwing themselves in front of it, kamikaze-style, to block the fire even if that seems to be what is happening and even though Wanda's command was "screen fire!"--that command could be the equivalent of calling for "cover fire" or suppressing fire.

[fendrin]

In fact we do know. Jillian uses her gwiffons as shields to protect her from the dwagon's fire. So you can shield yourself with other units. Not that I don't expect the archon to play an important role to take Ansom out of the picture.

That was flier vs. flier combat. Your suggestion of twoll heavies would be flier vs. non-flier.

We already know the rules for flier vs. non-flier, very explicitly, from the initial battle plan to take out the siege.

Point two is the important one:

Flying stacks with a commander may selectively engage non-fliers on their turn

In other words, Ansom (a flying 'stack' of one commander) could selectively engage Wanda (non-flier).

[Aquillion]

In fact we do know. Jillian uses her gwiffons as shields to protect her from the dwagon's fire. So you can shield yourself with other units. Not that I don't expect the archon to play an important role to take Ansom out of the picture.

That was in a fight with no enemy warlord, though, so the dwagons probably weren't using detailed tactics. In fact, with no leader they may just auto-aggro on whatever is closest or something like that.

[teratorn]

In other words, Ansom (a flying 'stack' of one commander) could selectively engage Wanda (non-flier).

It's doesn't mean that they can ignore units that can reach them.

The selective engagement thing is something we've seen tried even in ground battles, Webinar told his units to engage the caster. But they still had to go over the units between them and the caster. For a flier it's easier, he can punch just at the ones covering the caster, but I don't see Ansom being able to pick Wanda from the middle of a group of twolls without having to fight them first.

That was in a fight with no enemy warlord, though, so the dwagons probably weren't using detailed tactics. In fact, with no leader they may just auto-aggro on whatever is closest or something like that.

You're confusing the strips, in that one Jillian is fighting Stanley.

[fendrin]

It's doesn't mean that they can ignore units that can reach them.

That's EXACTLY what it means.

Selective engagement essentially means that the only non-flying troops that can respond to a led flying stack's attack are:
1) the units that were attacked
2) archers

The selective engagement thing is something we've seen tried even in ground battles, Webinar told his units to engage the caster. But they still had to go over the units between them and the caster.

1) Selective engagement is described as something fliers can do against non-fliers. Flier vs. flier and non-flier vs. non-flier combats do not have the option.
2) What Webby was in essence ordering is 'given the choice to attack the caster or another unit, attack the caster'.

For a flier it's easier, he can punch just at the ones covering the caster, but I don't see Ansom being able to pick Wanda from the middle of a group of twolls without having to fight them first.

Whether or not you are able to see it, the rules have been made quite clear.I would see it as an extreme dive-charge, pulling up at the last second to avoid crashing into the ground, and ending up out of reach of the slow-reacting twolls before they realize their commander has been croaked.

In fact, we've seen it happen (except not with a commander in the stack).

[Godskook]

That's EXACTLY what it means.

Selective engagement essentially means that the only non-flying troops that can respond to a led flying stack's attack are:
1) the units that were attacked
2) archers

Yet we've already seen flyers attacked by units that they aren't engaged with, because they're in range. Panel 8, marbit pikeman.

1) Selective engagement is described as something fliers can do against non-fliers. Flier vs. flier and non-flier vs. non-flier combats do not have the option.
2) What Webby was in essence ordering is 'given the choice to attack the caster or another unit, attack the caster'.

Mechanics aren't always given to us in their most precise form. We need to be cautious when applying the mechanics to further situations because we know that our knowledge of the full rule-set is limited. Of course, that applies mostly to the 'academic' rules. The ones that we actually see working we can speak more authoritatively about.

Whether or not you are able to see it, the rules have been made quite clear.I would see it as an extreme dive-charge, pulling up at the last second to avoid crashing into the ground, and ending up out of reach of the slow-reacting twolls before they realize their commander has been croaked.

In fact, we've seen it happen (except not with a commander in the stack).

Except in that battle, Jillian is ambushing them. At this point, I doubt Ansom could recroak even 1 uncroaked before Parson is made very well aware of his attack, if he isn't already. Anyone Parson sends at Ansom will know where Ansom is before the reverse, giving the element of surprise to GK, not Ansom. Sure, Ansom could fly around looking for Wanda all he wants, but he explicitly said he was going up there to croak undead and weaken the wall for the coalition, so cherry-picking is the last thing on his mind. If Parson sends Wanda after Ansom, Ansom won't know she is coming until her stack engages him because he'll be on the ground fighting his uncroaked men. Then, she'll be engaging him on the ground. No worry whatsoever of Ansom targeting her first in that case.

[Aquillion]

You're confusing the strips, in that one Jillian is fighting Stanley.

Oh, that one.

...technically speaking, no, she isn't fighting anyone in that strip.

[Godskook]

Oh, that one.

...technically speaking, no, she isn't fighting anyone in that strip.

...technically speaking, what she wasn't fighting reacted as if she was fighting it. Hence, it was probably in obedience to Erfworld rules as if it was Stanley.

[Chewy]

Whether or not you are able to see it, the rules have been made quite clear.I would see it as an extreme dive-charge, pulling up at the last second to avoid crashing into the ground, and ending up out of reach of the slow-reacting twolls before they realize their commander has been croaked.

Your also assuming Ansom is that strong and Wanda is so weak that she goes down in one pass. Also as combat seems more and more like real time tactics then TBS theres nothing to say that Wanda can't just redirect troops as she sees fit to prevent it or do something herself to stop the dive.

[Lamech]

That's EXACTLY what it means.

Selective engagement essentially means that the only non-flying troops that can respond to a led flying stack's attack are:
1) the units that were attacked
2) archers

Actually I think the part you are refering to when quoted exactly is this, "Flying Stacks with a commander may selectivly engage non-fliers on their own turn." To me this sounds like two stacks duking it out. Your argument would esentially imply that only archers can fight the dwagons. Units don't attack back against dwagons.

Whether or not you are able to see it, the rules have been made quite clear.I would see it as an extreme dive-charge, pulling up at the last second to avoid crashing into the ground, and ending up out of reach of the slow-reacting twolls before they realize their commander has been croaked.

In fact, we've seen it happen (except not with a commander in the stack).

The dive senario wouldn't make sense with the rules we know. What if Wanda survived, and was mearly heavily wounded? She wouldn't be able to fight back either with that senario.

Secondly, when the troll and skellies were attacked the background looked like heavy forest to me. They probably couldn't even attack back. In fact they didn't, not even the twoll. This isn't a conformation of your argument no-one fought back; there was no diferance between the units attacked, and the units not attacked.

[Suicide Junkie]

The marbit stack which was getting NomNomNommed by the green dwagon were stabbing it back, although they didn't seem to be doing much damage.

The skellies that got attacked died instantly without a chance to fight back. The rest of the stack didn't get a chance to counter attack in that case.

What is the key difference between those two cases?

[plainsfox]

Hrrm.... Has anyone commented on the fact that Wanda said she used up almost all of GK's AA on Jillian's stack? I wonder if whatever's left is enough to slag single, solitary Ansom as he leads his charge?

[DevilDan]

Hrrm.... Has anyone commented on the fact that Wanda said she used up almost all of GK's AA on Jillian's stack? I wonder if whatever's left is enough to slag single, solitary Ansom as he leads his charge?

I think that's why few people mention it. I wonder how much could have been restored and whether or not a caster is needed. (Would it reset every turn?)

[plainsfox]

If it does and Ansom goes for Wanda, then we know where GK has a caster that can activate it.

Something else I see if Jillian heading off to FAQ to take them, if only to keep them out of Transyvlitian hands. I don't see her taking the chance that Don King won't spend his time and look. Chances are they already have a few good places to start with.

[Lord_Butters_I]

(Would it reset every turn?)

Weapons as powerful as Aggro are either endgame superweapons or one-use panic buttons. If GK could get ahold of the former they wouldn't use it for base defense, and the latter seems to mesh with their situation more.

[plainsfox]

You know, all Gobwin's Knob needs is ONE AA weapon left. Just one. Wanda was asked if she fired all and she said she fired "Most" GK must have ONE AA weapon left atleast.

[datalaughing]

Well, one weapon with enough juice to waste Ansom. Let's remember that he is a pretty strong guy in his own right. Not to mention for all the flash of the AA weapons Wanda let loose against Jillian's crew, they didn't take down that many people. An archon and a few others, when Jill left GK she still had a decent number of flyers at her command, seemingly not much the worse for wear. So with the guy who is, quite possibly, the RCC's heaviest hitter coming over the wall, they'd probably need something that packed quite a punch to take him down.

[InfernalistGame]

Okay, posting my analysis of things in debate on the board before I crawl into bed.

1)In siege situations (as in, attacking a city or in fact any battle in some cases) in some hex-based wargames, as has been discussed before, the city's single map hex would become a tactical battle grid. In these grids, each hex (not to be confused with a city-sized hex), could contain only one stack of forces. Hence, if one is defending a battle grid based on one's outer walls...you -could- choke five hexes with stacks of 990 zombies...or spread 50 stacks of 99 zombies across 50 hexes. This is the advantage of the army laying siege against GK before the uncroaked reinforcements. Forcing Parson to spread his palty forces around the entire GK wall would make it susceptible to the RCC's numbers. However, now, Ansom is abandoning that plan, as there's an boopload of well-buffed token uncroaked up there. Even spread out, they have better odds. Better to throw the anti-uncroaked weapon at them.

2) I think Wanda's going to ride with the flying stack to give them the best close-proximity bonus, and count on her and Parson's overlapping, combined, city-wide bonuses to buff the uncroaked on the walls. Will a closed stack of 500+ decently buffed shamblers be able to overwhelm Ansom? That remains to be seen. But right now, Parson's laid them out in the thin array I discussed in point #1, so the real question is...can a bunch of what appear to be single-unit stacks do it? I wish the visuals could tell us how the stacking actually is...as from what I see, it's hard to tell. Calling it as I see it, with that thin spread at the top of the walls...Ansem's got good odds of clearing enough melee room to let the wall-sapping work unopposed.

3)Some non-archer, non-flying ground units can engage fliers in some game rulesets. Spiders come to mind here (creating webs to snare flying attackers, etc). But, they'd be an exception to a general rule, which happens in these games...like the wizard unit that teleports across battle grids, ignoring speed... the question is, since Parson's still learning everyone's stats, having to lay eyes on them with the glasses... do the spidews have such options, and does he know about it?

[DevilDan]

For all we know combat within a hex reverts to some peculiar admixture of real-time and engagement-based system.

[teratorn]

That's EXACTLY what it means.

That doesn't make any sense and goes against all logic. (sorry, I couldn't resist to be as assertive as you are).

Now seriously, if selective worked like that, it would mean that Parson could have croaked every single warlord in the coalition when he attacked the column. If he could pick them out from their stacks like that, they would all be dead meat.

[fendrin]

EDIT: I told myself I would avoid writing mega-posts, but here we are...

Yet we've already seen flyers attacked by units that they aren't engaged with, because they're in range. Panel 8, marbit pikeman.

Ah, I see the confusion. I intended to be talking about stacks, not units. In the panel you are talking about, the dragon engaged a stack of pikemen (it is nom nomming one), thus becoming vulnerable to the rest of the stack.

Ansom would still be able to target Wanda specifically. Yes, the hypothetical twoll bodyguards would be able to strike back at Ansom, but not until AFTER he got his mega-hit in on Wanda. Without Wanda's bonus, those uncroaked will be relatively insignificant, despite their numbers.

That's where Wanda's flying uncroaked come in. One of them can take the hit for Wanda, at which point Ansom is vulnerable to counterattack from the other flyers/archers. That would be a great time for Wanda to pull out a 'disenchant' type of spell, targeting the carpet (why do people call it a twinkie? It doesn't look remotely like one). Ansom ceases to fly, then gets swarmed by uberbuffed uncroaked. Cue schadenfreude.

Yet we've already seen flyers attacked by units that they aren't engaged with, because they're in range. Panel 8, marbit pikeman.Mechanics aren't always given to us in their most precise form. We need to be cautious when applying the mechanics to further situations because we know that our knowledge of the full rule-set is limited. Of course, that applies mostly to the 'academic' rules. The ones that we actually see working we can speak more authoritatively about.

True. In this case, though, we have sen it in action numerous times, as already linked to and described.

Yet we've already seen flyers attacked by units that they aren't engaged with, because they're in range. Panel 8, marbit pikeman.Except in that battle, Jillian is ambushing them. At this point, I doubt Ansom could recroak even 1 uncroaked before Parson is made very well aware of his attack, if he isn't already. Anyone Parson sends at Ansom will know where Ansom is before the reverse, giving the element of surprise to GK, not Ansom. Sure, Ansom could fly around looking for Wanda all he wants, but he explicitly said he was going up there to croak undead and weaken the wall for the coalition, so cherry-picking is the last thing on his mind. If Parson sends Wanda after Ansom, Ansom won't know she is coming until her stack engages him because he'll be on the ground fighting his uncroaked men. Then, she'll be engaging him on the ground. No worry whatsoever of Ansom targeting her first in that case.

Eh, we are still largely ignorant of ambushing rules. It honestly seems to mostly be a matter of positioning and leadership/observation. In the Jilian vs. twoll case, there was no leader, and none of the GK units involved have leadership or much (if anything) in the way of brains. The second case (Jill & TV 'ambushing' Stanley) it honestly looks more like a straight-up aerial battle with full engagement and free in-hex movement. No real mechanical advantage to either side.

Your also assuming Ansom is that strong and Wanda is so weak that she goes down in one pass. Also as combat seems more and more like real time tactics then TBS theres nothing to say that Wanda can't just redirect troops as she sees fit to prevent it or do something herself to stop the dive.

To your first point: Ansom can one-shot a dwagon. An (unled) dwagon can one-shot Jillian.

Actually I think the part you are refering to when quoted exactly is this, "Flying Stacks with a commander may selectivly engage non-fliers on their own turn." To me this sounds like two stacks duking it out. Your argument would esentially imply that only archers can fight the dwagons. Units don't attack back against dwagons.

Yes, that is what I meant. See above (as you probably already have ).

The dive senario wouldn't make sense with the rules we know. What if Wanda survived, and was mearly heavily wounded? She wouldn't be able to fight back either with that senario.

True, that was a bad description. I suppose it would be more of a dive-charge the other units couldn't stop... they (and Wanda if she somehow survived-- unlikely) could respond only AFTER Ansom's initial targeted attack.

Secondly, when the troll and skellies were attacked the background looked like heavy forest to me. They probably couldn't even attack back. In fact they didn't, not even the twoll. This isn't a conformation of your argument no-one fought back; there was no diferance between the units attacked, and the units not attacked.

I suppose that is possible but I am doubtful. It seems far more reasonable for the twoll to have no0t fought back because it was a) ignorant of what was going on and then b) one-shotted.

That doesn't make any sense and goes against all logic. (sorry, I couldn't resist to be as assertive as you are).

I've found asertiveness to be a necessity to get people to take your ideas seriously, even if it is seriously enough to shoot them down. I would prefer being shot down to being ignored.

Now seriously, if selective worked like that, it would mean that Parson could have croaked every single warlord in the coalition when he attacked the column. If he could pick them out from their stacks like that, they would all be dead meat.

No, because the warlords would be a) presumably heavily guarded and b) clumped around the command table. They would swoop down, take a couple out, then get wiped out by the counter attack. The fact that parson was able to do so much is because the dwagons were (for the most part) only attacking single targets, getting hit by weak counterattacks, then moving on. A stand-up fight against the leadership corps would probably have ended very differently.