Batman's Bane: The Joker

[Aquillion]

Even more fun would be living spells in a magic item factory...

With none of them emulating anything below a level 7 spell...

Living greater dispel magic, living prismatic sphere, living meteor swarm, living energy drain...

Add in crazy magic items to suit and even a Batman wizard is going to be having severe difficulties...

But the problem with that is, like I said... everyone else is going to be having even more severe difficulties. Batman has a wide variety of options and can adapt to unexpected situations, that's the whole point. Most other classes and builds can't, not to nearly the same extent.

I mean, what does the rest of the party do about the Living Energy Drain? They can't safely engage it in melee. It's immune to precision damage and has blindsight. An archer can at least do some damage, but without precision damage it can be hard to get much out of archery, and aside from that only the spellcasters are going to be any help.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

And I think we've pretty much defined the problem with the Batman Wizard. He can prepare for any situation. Which is why the Joker Bard is so good at denying him previous knowledge of what he's doing. However, that seems to be only part of the equation. In reducing the power of the Batman Wizard, we need to also be able to entertain the rest of the party.

[Epic_Wizard]

If you want to really annoy a Batman Wizard then just silence the whole bloody place and put a few out of the way minions, magical traps, or constructs with orders to prepare an action to shoot Batman whenever he even looks like he might be thinking about casting a spell. If he wants to use spells with Verbal components then he has to use Silenced spells which ups the Concentration check to avoid losing the spell. Once Batman is out of Silent Spelled stuff he's up a creek.

The rest of the party can have fun with whatever you drop in there and Batman has to resort to (probably) low power Magic Items that are use activated (no command words in a silence spell)

[bobspldbckwrds]

i like it, and i might just use it.

for all the naysayers who are crying out "but batman can beat him", being a dm isnt about winning, and anyone who thinks so is obviously a terrible dm.


this build make a great foil for any batman wizard, and would encourage a lot of good roleplay

[toddex]

If this is all RP then just slap a few divine ranks on him and have him create joker world... done deal.

[Tharivol123]

There's plenty of other ways to mess with Batman wizard and the party as well. Joker could very easily turn the party against one another through various means. Like the OP was saying, Bard Joker doesn't need to face Batman head on.
-Perhaps abduct someone important to each party member, make them chose who to save (Dark Knight anyone?), and enjoy watching them fight over what to do from a few feet away.
-Manipulate the rogue into backstabbing the cleric or paladin. Even better yet, steal one of Batman's spell books.
-Convince the local church of Pelor that the party is evil, while convincing the church of Vecna that they're there to steal one of their artifacts, forcing the party to do battle with both ends of the good/evil divide.
-Gain favor with a local king and use him/his army to make life difficult for the party
-Use bardic performance to tell the legend of the "evil party," manipulate other bards into believing that story as the true one, and let it spread throughout.
-My favorite idea of all: DMPC. Right there in the party, plotting their downfall the entire time. Everyone thinks he is loyal and a contributing member of the party, but when he gets alone time...

[Yukitsu]

-Manipulate the rogue into backstabbing the cleric or paladin. Even better yet, steal one of Batman's spell books.

While the others all have fairly easily exploitable flaws, they are at least somewhat a challenge and interesting. This on the other hand is a bad idea all around. Trying to pit the party against itself is just going to make for bad blood. Having an NPC or DMPC rogue would be preferable.

The DMPC one has the funniest flaw, because my party tends to hover a proverbial knife between the DMPC shoulders whenever we get one, to the point that our DM has stopped making them relevant at all. We have twitchy trigger fingers.

[Tharivol123]

The DMPC one has the funniest flaw, because my party tends to hover a proverbial knife between the DMPC shoulders whenever we get one, to the point that our DM has stopped making them relevant at all. We have twitchy trigger fingers.

That is why you spend so much time gaining their trust. We had a Wizard DMPC in our group a few years ago. He was a reliable asset to the party and got us out of a few jams. It wasn't until about a year in game that we noticed strange behavior from him (after obtaining a magical item). Another month after that our cleric got suspicious and used detect evil...followed immediately by the Wizard teleporting away, with most of our magical items.
Of course, I also remember the time we killed a DMPC (a different DM) in the second gaming session because none of us trusted him, so I see your point.

[magic9mushroom]

You're not going to be able to build a trap capable of killing an optimized Batman Wizard. It simply cannot be done. However, you can make things... exceedingly annoying for him, which is exactly what this build is designed to do.

Trap. The. Soul.

[Temp.]

While the others all have fairly easily exploitable flaws, they are at least somewhat a challenge and interesting. This on the other hand is a bad idea all around. Trying to pit the party against itself is just going to make for bad blood. Having an NPC or DMPC rogue would be preferable.

Man, you're crazy. The times when players form smaller competing groups -- all wrestling with each other to reach individual goals -- are the best times in D&D. Or any RPG.

Friend Computer would agree.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Trap. The. Soul.

Has to be cast on a dead Batman Wizard. First you have to kill him...

Also, not his style. He's not trying to kill Batman, he's trying to have fun with him. Maybe Trap the Soul of someone the Batman Wizard cares about... if such a person exists.

He's very good at exploiting weaknesses. The biggest weakness of the typical munchkin "I don't care about anything" character is Treasure-Lust. Catch wind of a powerful artifact somewhere, and the Batman Wizard is THERE...

Right in the middle of a Dimension Locked Fun House Of DOOM...

[magic9mushroom]

Has to be cast on a dead Batman Wizard. First you have to kill him...

Also, not his style. He's not trying to kill Batman, he's trying to have fun with him. Maybe Trap the Soul of someone the Batman Wizard cares about... if such a person exists.

He's very good at exploiting weaknesses. The biggest weakness of the typical munchkin "I don't care about anything" character is Treasure-Lust. Catch wind of a powerful artifact somewhere, and the Batman Wizard is THERE...

Right in the middle of a Dimension Locked Fun House Of DOOM...

No. You're thinking of Soul Bind.

I'm talking about the spell that can kill someone with no chance of res bar godly intervention, no save, and no SR. Which you then cast on his spellbook. Or on a door handle inside an AMF.

[Yukitsu]

You mean the spell that requires the caster actually take it into his possession to take effect, that equivalently requires that at the level that it's available, he didn't permanency arcane sight via a scroll at some point in his career that also happens to cost 1000xhit dice of the wizard?

To note, opening a door doesn't constitute accepting the doorknob nor does it constitute picking it up.

[magic9mushroom]

You mean the spell that requires the caster actually take it into his possession to take effect, that equivalently requires that at the level that it's available, he didn't permanency arcane sight via a scroll at some point in his career that also happens to cost 1000xhit dice of the wizard?

To note, opening a door doesn't constitute accepting the doorknob nor does it constitute picking it up.

Yes it does, though if you wanted to get picky then it's not like the key couldn't be done either. And didn't you notice that I said AMF? Have the Field such that the key is in it but the door isn't. Batman picks it up, moves out of the Field, dies.

[Tharivol123]

He's very good at exploiting weaknesses. The biggest weakness of the typical munchkin "I don't care about anything" character is Treasure-Lust. Catch wind of a powerful artifact somewhere, and the Batman Wizard is THERE...

Right in the middle of a Dimension Locked Fun House Of DOOM...

Not necessarily the only way. If he is a half-way decent party member he'll go somewhere the party needs to. Use another party member's exploitation as the initial hook. Make it appear as though he is meant to be the Cleric's nemesis, but after the wizard gets humiliated the first time it all becomes clear. Remember, Joker attacked Batman by manipulating Harvey Dent in a way that made Batman feel helpless to stop it. You can do the same here. The first hook is someone else in the party, the rest of the hooks are "I cannot fail again."

As for the fun house of doom: Tomb of Horrors, Return to the Tomb of Horrors, and a thread that should still be around here are great sources of inspiration (it was called something like "Greatest DM traps of all time," IIRC). None of them in there were the "rocks fall everyone dies" type, but they did mess with player's minds.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

No. You're thinking of Soul Bind.

I'm talking about the spell that can kill someone with no chance of res bar godly intervention, no save, and no SR. Which you then cast on his spellbook. Or on a door handle inside an AMF.

I have never heard of such a spell, nor would I use it. I want something less arbitrary than "Rocks Fall, You Die".

The Joker Bard is the GM's BBEG. He's not supposed to KILL Batman Wizard... he's supposed to entertain the players.

As for the fun house of doom: Tomb of Horrors, Return to the Tomb of Horrors, and a thread that should still be around here are great sources of inspiration (it was called something like "Greatest DM traps of all time," IIRC). None of them in there were the "rocks fall everyone dies" type, but they did mess with player's minds.

Yes, yes, a thousand times YES. FINALLY, someone gets it.

Joker Bard doesn't go "I r ub4r, i pwn j00 n00bz". He plays mind-games with the party, until they trust nothing. Like setting up, for the Paladin in the party, the same situation Joker did by putting Hostages in outfits normally reserved for his henchmen. Kill the hostages, which are all Good, and FALL so hard you leave skid marks on the alignment chart.

[Tharivol123]

My usual DM has a twisted sense of humor like this and loved putting us in win with consequences/lose majorly situations. I'll see if he has any ideas this weekend and let you know what he comes up with.
One trap I remember fairly well though:
A 20x20 room, 61ft high ceiling (this is important) with spikes, doors on the north and south walls (enter from north). The room is full of triggers for a reverse gravity trap.
The trick: The door on the south wall: an ooze disguised as a door.
The real door out: trap door built into the ceiling that blends in with the spikes.

They'll be so busy trying to disable the "trap" that they won't be checking for the door on the ceiling (despite the fact that the obvious trap didn't kill them).

[magic9mushroom]

I have never heard of such a spell, nor would I use it. I want something less arbitrary than "Rocks Fall, You Die".

The Joker Bard is the GM's BBEG. He's not supposed to KILL Batman Wizard... he's supposed to entertain the players.

Yes, yes, a thousand times YES. FINALLY, someone gets it.

Joker Bard doesn't go "I r ub4r, i pwn j00 n00bz". He plays mind-games with the party, until they trust nothing. Like setting up, for the Paladin in the party, the same situation Joker did by putting Hostages in outfits normally reserved for his henchmen. Kill the hostages, which are all Good, and FALL so hard you leave skid marks on the alignment chart.

Agreed. I'm not saying you should use TtS. Surprised you haven't heard of it though, seeing as it's in the PHB.




Trap the Soul Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V, S, M, (F); see text
Casting time: 1 standard action or see text
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Permanent; see text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes; see text

Trap the soul forces a creature’s life force (and its material body) into a gem. The gem holds the trapped entity indefinitely or until the gem is broken and the life force is released, which allows the material body to reform. If the trapped creature is a powerful creature from another plane it can be required to perform a service immediately upon being freed. Otherwise, the creature can go free once the gem imprisoning it is broken.

Depending on the version selected, the spell can be triggered in one of two ways.

Spell Completion: First, the spell can be completed by speaking its final word as a standard action as if you were casting a regular spell at the subject. This allows spell resistance (if any) and a Will save to avoid the effect. If the creature’s name is spoken as well, any spell resistance is ignored and the save DC increases by 2. If the save or spell resistance is successful, the gem shatters.

Trigger Object: The second method is far more insidious, for it tricks the subject into accepting a trigger object inscribed with the final spell word, automatically placing the creature’s soul in the trap. To use this method, both the creature’s name and the trigger word must be inscribed on the trigger object when the gem is enspelled. A sympathy spell can also be placed on the trigger object. As soon as the subject picks up or accepts the trigger object, its life force is automatically transferred to the gem without the benefit of spell resistance or a save.

Material Component: Before the actual casting of trap the soul, you must procure a gem of at least 1,000 gp value for every Hit Die possessed by the creature to be trapped. If the gem is not valuable enough, it shatters when the entrapment is attempted. (While creatures have no concept of level or Hit Dice as such, the value of the gem needed to trap an individual can be researched. Remember that this value can change over time as creatures gain more Hit Dice.)

Focus (Trigger Object Only): If the trigger object method is used, a special trigger object, prepared as described above, is needed.





What I was objecting to was that you said that a Batman Wizard couldn't be killed. Well, this is my "NO" button.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Agreed. I'm not saying you should use TtS. Surprised you haven't heard of it though, seeing as it's in the PHB.




Trap the Soul Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V, S, M, (F); see text
Casting time: 1 standard action or see text
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Permanent; see text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes; see text

Trap the soul forces a creature’s life force (and its material body) into a gem. The gem holds the trapped entity indefinitely or until the gem is broken and the life force is released, which allows the material body to reform. If the trapped creature is a powerful creature from another plane it can be required to perform a service immediately upon being freed. Otherwise, the creature can go free once the gem imprisoning it is broken.

Depending on the version selected, the spell can be triggered in one of two ways.

Spell Completion: First, the spell can be completed by speaking its final word as a standard action as if you were casting a regular spell at the subject. This allows spell resistance (if any) and a Will save to avoid the effect. If the creature’s name is spoken as well, any spell resistance is ignored and the save DC increases by 2. If the save or spell resistance is successful, the gem shatters.

Trigger Object: The second method is far more insidious, for it tricks the subject into accepting a trigger object inscribed with the final spell word, automatically placing the creature’s soul in the trap. To use this method, both the creature’s name and the trigger word must be inscribed on the trigger object when the gem is enspelled. A sympathy spell can also be placed on the trigger object. As soon as the subject picks up or accepts the trigger object, its life force is automatically transferred to the gem without the benefit of spell resistance or a save.

Material Component: Before the actual casting of trap the soul, you must procure a gem of at least 1,000 gp value for every Hit Die possessed by the creature to be trapped. If the gem is not valuable enough, it shatters when the entrapment is attempted. (While creatures have no concept of level or Hit Dice as such, the value of the gem needed to trap an individual can be researched. Remember that this value can change over time as creatures gain more Hit Dice.)

Focus (Trigger Object Only): If the trigger object method is used, a special trigger object, prepared as described above, is needed.





What I was objecting to was that you said that a Batman Wizard couldn't be killed. Well, this is my "NO" button.

The only problem is that he'd never fall for it. Greater Prying Eyes sees to this. So does Arcane Sight, Greater. Furthermore, it HAS to be to be a gem, you cannot arbitrarily make it anything, it must be a gem. And any Batman Wizard is going to be very wary when identifying ANY gems lying around either in an AMF or radiating strong magic.

FURTHERMORE, any of the other players can simply destroy the gem after they see it suck up the Wizard, and release him.

[Aquillion]

No, the trigger object is separate from the gem.

However, if it is up, Foresight bugs out the instant before the wizard reaches for or accepts the trigger object, spoiling the trap. Arcane Sight, which can be made permanent, allows an easy spellcraft to reveal that a high-level conjuration is enchanting the trigger object (which doesn't leave much room for what it could be.) They just have to look at the object to get that roll.

And, of course, Greater Arcane Sight will instantly reveal the specific spell that the object is enchanted with, if the wizard grows suspicious... though, as noted, a permanent regular Arcane Sight will usually be enough, because there are so few things that would make the trigger object hold a high-level Conjuration aura.

Also note that this requires knowing the wizard's real name in advance. Wizards who go by a pseudonym or who otherwise conceal their 'true' name for whatever reason are completely immune to that application of Trap The Soul, as well as several other unpleasant effects (this applies to anyone, of course, not just wizards.)

[magic9mushroom]

The only problem is that he'd never fall for it. Greater Prying Eyes sees to this. So does Arcane Sight, Greater. Furthermore, it HAS to be to be a gem, you cannot arbitrarily make it anything, it must be a gem. And any Batman Wizard is going to be very wary when identifying ANY gems lying around either in an AMF or radiating strong magic.

FURTHERMORE, any of the other players can simply destroy the gem after they see it suck up the Wizard, and release him.

No. Gem =/= trigger object. The trigger object can be anything. When he picks up the trigger object, his soul is transferred to the gem. Which won't be anywhere that the PCs can get at.

Perfect way to do it: Have an amulet that requires magic to open, with the word engraved on the inside. The Wizard can't open it in the AMF, so he'll take it out, upon which he disappears into the gem (held by the BBEG) and is never seen again. Can't Disjunction the AMF because this all takes place in the Outlands in a region where 9th level spells don't work.

EDIT: Partially ninjaed. Foresight and Arcane Sight are suppressed by AMF. Foresight wouldn't work anyway because you're doing it in a region with no 9th level spells. Pay a cleric to Commune to get the wizard's name.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

No. Gem =/= trigger object. The trigger object can be anything. When he picks up the trigger object, his soul is transferred to the gem. Which won't be anywhere that the PCs can get at.

Perfect way to do it: Have an amulet that requires magic to open, with the word engraved on the inside. The Wizard can't open it in the AMF, so he'll take it out, upon which he disappears into the gem (held by the BBEG) and is never seen again. Can't Disjunction the AMF because this all takes place in the Outlands in a region where 9th level spells don't work.

EDIT: Partially ninjaed.

1) no 9th level spells is completely arbitrary. Any Batman Wizard will either have his 9th level spells available to him (including Foresight), or just won't play.

2) No wizard, regardless of tendencies, is going to willingly enter an AMF. Period.

3) Anything magically sealed so that it requires magic to open is not going to be magically locked, and can be opened by anyone in an AMF.

[Saintjebus]

1) no 9th level spells is completely arbitrary. Any Batman Wizard will either have his 9th level spells available to him (including Foresight), or just won't play.

It's not arbitrary, the Outlands, specifically, can block out 9th level spells. That's just the outer parts of it. Closer in, you can cut off even lower level spells.

1)
2) No wizard, regardless of tendencies, is going to willingly enter an AMF. Period.

Unless the Joker gives the wizard a compelling reason, i.e., very powerful artifact, person captive that Batman is attached to, etc.

1)
3) Anything magically sealed so that it requires magic to open is not going to be magically locked, and can be opened by anyone in an AMF.

You are correct. Anything magically locked in an AMF will no longer be magically locked. However, if you are in an area that locks out 9th level spells, but not 8th level spells, it would be fine.

[magic9mushroom]

1) no 9th level spells is completely arbitrary. Any Batman Wizard will either have his 9th level spells available to him (including Foresight), or just won't play.

2) No wizard, regardless of tendencies, is going to willingly enter an AMF. Period.

3) Anything magically sealed so that it requires magic to open is not going to be magically locked, and can be opened by anyone in an AMF.

1) Huh? Not arbitrary at all. Straight from the DMG description of the Outlands. Part of the normal D&D cosmology, and the plane with the biggest metropolis in the multiverse. If he doesn't want to go there, then that's fine, but he won't be able to get to whatever the Joker's holding.

2) True. But he won't have that much choice.

3) Not necessarily. Suppose the lock only opens from the inside?

EDIT: Partially ninjaed again.

[Aquillion]

No. Gem =/= trigger object. The trigger object can be anything. When he picks up the trigger object, his soul is transferred to the gem. Which won't be anywhere that the PCs can get at.

Perfect way to do it: Have an amulet that requires magic to open, with the word engraved on the inside. The Wizard can't open it in the AMF, so he'll take it out, upon which he disappears into the gem (held by the BBEG) and is never seen again. Can't Disjunction the AMF because this all takes place in the Outlands in a region where 9th level spells don't work.

EDIT: Partially ninjaed.

Arcane Sight will still see the amulet's highly unusual high-level conjuration aura, at which point the wizard is likely to Greater Dispel Magic it before trying anything else. If it's just some really weird magic item with a conjuration aura, it'll only be suppressed; if it's Trap the Soul, it will be dispelled and gone (ruining the high-level gemstone that their adversary used as a spell component in the process, incidentally.) That might sound like excessive paranoia, but we're talking about a wizard with other high-level caster enemies willing to spend a large amount of money and effort to use Trap the Soul against them specifically... And this still requires knowing the wizard's true name, which isn't something you can necessarily assume for your typical BBEG.

Of course, if we can get back on track here, the real issue in this case isn't whether or not the wizard can beat Trap the Soul... because Trap the Soul is, of course, another high-level wizard spell, so at this point we're not talking about Batman vs. the Joker, we're talking about Batman vs. Another Batman. Obviously, if you want to turn the game into nothing but convoluted high-level duels between casters, Batman can be either beaten or forced to a draw by another Batman... but that doesn't prove anything.

EDIT: Partially ninjaed. Foresight and Arcane Sight are suppressed by AMF. Foresight wouldn't work anyway because you're doing it in a region with no 9th level spells. Pay a cleric to Commune to get the wizard's name.

If the wizard finds the object outside of an AMF, they'll see it immediately. If the object is inside an AMF when the wizard picks it up (the action that triggers the spell), then it will not instantly go off when they walk out of the AMF -- unfortunately, that is how magic works, and if you ignore the exact wording of your spells then they will not behave the way you expect.

A wizard who sees an object he wants in an AMF will (of course) ask someone else to get it for him anyway, at which point its suspicious aura will appear the instant that person carries it out. But if he did step in and pick it up himself, it still would not go off at any point -- not when he picks it up (it's suppressed), not when he carries it out (simply carrying it is not a trigger), and not when he glances at it, then drops, dispels, or identifies it. He would have to manually drop it, then pick it up again while outside an AMF for the effect to trigger.

And unless the wizard's name is "Yes" or "No", Commune is not going to help you:

You contact your deity—or agents thereof —and ask questions that can be answered by a simple yes or no.

[Saintjebus]

I don't have books nearby, so I can't check, but wouldn't the lowly Nystul's magic aura be useful? Either A. Hide the amulet's aura, or B. Throw auras on everything they have found up to this point. At a certain point, Batman would either run out of Dispels, Greater Arcane sight, or just have gotten irritated with all the fakes that he just doesn't bother anymore.

[magic9mushroom]

Arcane Sight will still see the amulet's highly unusual high-level conjuration aura, at which point the wizard is likely to Greater Dispel Magic it before trying anything else. If it's just some really weird magic item with a conjuration aura, it'll only be suppressed; if it's Trap the Soul, it will be dispelled and gone (ruining the high-level gemstone that their adversary used as a spell component in the process, incidentally.) That might sound like excessive paranoia, but we're talking about a wizard with other high-level caster enemies willing to spend a large amount of money and effort to use Trap the Soul against them specifically... And this still requires knowing the wizard's true name, which isn't something you can necessarily assume for your typical BBEG.

Of course, if we can get back on track here, the real issue in this case isn't whether or not the wizard can beat Trap the Soul... because Trap the Soul is, of course, another high-level wizard spell, so at this point we're not talking about Batman vs. the Joker, we're talking about Batman vs. Another Batman. Obviously, if you want to turn the game into nothing but convoluted high-level duels between casters, Batman can be either beaten or forced to a draw by another Batman... but that doesn't prove anything.

Arcane Sight: Antimagic Field. No.

Greater Dispel Magic: Antimagic Field. No.

Disjunction on AMF: Outlands. No.

True name: Diplomance cleric to cast Commune. Done.

No TtS: Sublime Chord, or Diplomance someone in Sigil, which has no limits on what you can buy (biggest city in the Planes). Done.

EDIT: Ok, so Commune won't give you it. Legend Lore or Contact Other Plane then. Or just make a Bardic Knowledge check.

[Aquillion]

Also. If you're going to use the Outlands, there's no need to do anything this complicated. The Joker can be a level 1 commoner, and operate in the innermost ring of the Outlands, where no magic operates at all. Simple enough. That's a place Batman can't go, no. If you can somehow find a wizard stupid enough to enter the outlands, you may as well convince him to go to the innermost parts of the outlands, then hit him on the head with a club and take his stuff.

[magic9mushroom]

Also. If you're going to use the Outlands, there's no need to do anything this complicated. The Joker can be a level 1 commoner, and operate in the innermost ring of the Outlands, where no magic operates at all. Simple enough. That's a place Batman can't go, no. If you can somehow find a wizard stupid enough to enter the outlands, you may as well convince him to go to the innermost parts of the outlands, then hit him on the head with a club and take his stuff.

*explodes in a puff of logic*

Ok, I'm a bit like Nale there.

[Aquillion]

A Magic Aura will work, but you still have the problem of finding the wizard's true name (assuming it isn't "Yes" or "No", which are the sorts of questions Commune is limited to), ensuring that the wizard picks up the object in question, and so on.

Also! I have a question. Is trapping a caster with a Trap the Soul spell a magical effect that would impede his movement? That is, can he walk or teleport out of the gem you put him in? I assure you, I ask this in all seriousness. What? Why? Oh, no reason...