OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

[gamephil]

Yes. But that would take V a round to cast. And we know that in one round Xykon can dispel any spell V casts. So there's little point in buffing Blackwing, as I pointed out in the post you replied to.

Thanks, just making sure I had that rule right. I did, in fact, read your entire post.

It would take V an action to cast, one which would not take up any of the bird's time. So, Shield, then BW takes his action and does a double move. Xykon has to use a spell that has that range: if Dispel does, great, if not, then he may have to use a spell that the bird can actually survive. If the bird is in range of the Dispel at that point, yes, it may be over, since we've already seen that X has Quicken, Maximize, and Empower, and can put all of them if necessary on a paltry 1st level spell. And also so long as Xykon, who has shown disdain for such plans in the past (didn't try MM because it was to low to bother with, didn't Dispel until advised to by Redcloak, and so on) actually thinks to do so.

As for "little point", it gives the bird a chance that is not afforded by any other means, and in desperate times people do what they can and hope for the best. In reality, and even in games. There's always the chance Xykon will blow it (not use the uber Dispel for some reason and roll low) or, as he has before, just not think it through completely.

In any event, it's just one plan. V could also have another Invisibility spell prepared, and X has been shown to not have or not bother with being able to see through such a thing. Again, one action, double move randomly, and so on.

[Toper]

As for "little point", it gives the bird a chance that is not afforded by any other means

There are surely many more effective ways to slow down Xykon than a crappy Shield spell; my first thought is Obscuring Mist, which will stop all non-area spells, not just Magic Missile. Even just plain tackling him before he gets to the window seems better.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

I think the Phylactery acts more like 'backup storage'... Should Xykon's body be destroyed, his soul reverts to the Phylactery and it begins to generate a new body for him. Should the Phylactery be destroyed though, his soul has no place to go should he be killed.

Yes, that is how I seen them as well. A holiday home for the soul to hang around in until a new body is up and running and ready for some more undead hijinks.

[The MunchKING]

He used Magic Missile against Soon and his Ghost Paladins.

[Tahnru]

The Snarl unmade the first world in less than half an hour, as well as slaying gods in a single strike. I think a trinket such as a heavily warded phylactery would be child's play to it.

Even were the phylactery to remain unscathed, it would be lying in the snarl's zone. Really, now, if you were Xykon, would you want to regrow with the Snarl as your neighbor?

In the rift is as good as gone, if it doesn't mean immediate permanent destruction of the bauble.

[DrakebloodIV]

Your nerd rage would be tedious enough if you were an actual rules lawyer pointing at the actual fine print of a spell effect that is precisely defined in the official rules (god knows we have enough rule lawyers in these forums as it is)... but you've managed to achieve the astounding feat of being just as irritating as the most bombastic sort of rules lawyer preening over his technical correctness, WITHOUT the sole redeeming quality they usually have of at least being technically correct.

There is no fine print for you to HAVE a technically correct point about. All you have to work with is a vague assertion that the spell slots would be "replenished", whatever that means. And it deserves to be stressed that this vague description came from a TRIUMVIRATE OF INFERNAL BEINGS! When you're LITERALLY dealing with devils, don't be surprised if the devil is in the details.

The Devils did promise that he would have all his spells slots replenished (Panel 3) by the splice, but thats beside the point. V himself has some decent flight and conjuration spells, so he most likely avoided having those prepared on his splices. Several flight spells may have been cast off panel. So 1-6 flight spells. That and however many spells V depleted durning splice time could easily deplete his stash. So V is really out of high level spells.

[AstralStorm]

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No, really, I think this spoils a gag.

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Doesn't Xykon get a familiar too? And he probably has more sorcerer levels than V has wizard levels, so that does not bode well for Blackwing.

Spoilery reply?

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Familiars shun liches, unless they're rat or... bat!

[gamephil]

There are surely many more effective ways to slow down Xykon than a crappy Shield spell; my first thought is Obscuring Mist. Even just plain tackling him before he gets to the window seems better.

I was responding to the idea that Magic Missile trumps Blackwing, specifically. That crappy Shield spell makes the bird completely immune to the one thing we know Xykon has, that has a long range, and doesn't give any form of save, and is being presented as making the "Give the necklace to Blackwing" plan pointless.

Obscuring Mist can be seen and therefore dispelled, so we come back to that.
Invisibility, which I also mentioned and which we know V had at least one of, is probably better than a "crappy" Obscuring Mist spell, since if Xykon can't happen to catch the bird in the area, Dispelling it won't work.

Expeditious Retreat could also be good, if the bird can get out of range (can't remember if that affects flying speed, though).

And putting one spell on the bird does not preclude just plain tackling the villain, and since he might have Still Spell in some way may not even help anyway.

But it all comes back to what V can do right now. I'm simply giving options that might make it possible for the overall plan to work, and at the power levels we're talking about nothing can be assumed to give more than a slight chance of victory. For that matter, maybe Xykon will come up, toss MM on the fleeing bird, then shout something like, "I can't believe I blew my Spell Penetration Roll on a bird!" (assuming V is high enough level for V's familiar to have SR, not sure).

The bird gives them a chance. Anything they can do to slightly improve that chance is a good choice, including all these crappy low-level spells.

[Snowyowl]

Hang on though... All this is still assuming Blackwing will do what V says. Given that Blackwing has, in the past, refused to risk his/her life for V's sake, how can we have the slightest idea he/she will now risk being unmade (which is literally a fate worse than death)?
I smell suspense here...
And yes, I vote that X doesn't think his moves through and tries a Fireball or Magic Missile or something with too short range. Perhaps O-Chul will be able to slow him down too.
Having said that, spells with a Long range would reach more than 1200 feet (because we know that Xykon is at least 21st-level), and Fireball is in this category. How many rounds would Xykon get to throw spells at poor BW for? He only gets 40 ft./round (I think. d20 rules are not my speciality).

Other question: Would a 1000-foot drop smash a phylactery? Only that's what might happen if Xykon successfully kills BW. Heh heh heh...

[Shatteredtower]

For the record, I'm not sure V is aware of Blackwing's presence yet. Could be, but it doesn't look like the elf's noticed.

And so continues the victory of immediate drama over any sort of plot consistency. Xykon pounded both O-Chul and V into very low hp, and now he uses his most powerful spell and he can't even hurt them.

There comes a point at which drawing more scars on scarred individuals ceases to be worth the effort. Considering how battered this pair looks, I'd say we passed that threshhold some time ago.

I'd be somewhat amused if Redcloak (or, without his knowledge, Xykon) had modified his holy symbol to provide protection from fire to the wielder -- and V was treated as an attended object toted by O-Chul. The former would be a sensible precaution for Xykon's right hand minion, while the latter is a plausible enough gag for this series. I don't think either is necessary, but neither would surprise me.

Then we have Xykon more or less standing around while the duo is running around all over the place, and pausing to think and plan.

Since we don't see Xykon in those panels, this cannot be assumed -- not that it matters, what with talking being a free action (as mentioned by Haley in a previous strip) and V's dialogue being surprisingly short.

"This is preposterous and bad storytelling. Roy can't be black."

Wait... Roy's black?

[pendell]

How about having O-chul suicidally attack Xykon, distracting his attention long enough for Blackwing to make hir run on the hole?

For that matter, why didn't O-chul punch Xykon's head off before swiping the philactery? Would that have made it more difficult for Xykon to cast a spell, or at least added some negative modifiers to his die rolls?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

Yes, that is how I seen them as well. A holiday home for the soul to hang around in until a new body is up and running and ready for some more undead hijinks.

That's it exactly. The phylactery in D&D is like a weird version of a parachute. If someone takes your parachute and destroys it, it won't kill you or even harm you. However, if you then fall, you will die rather than easily surviving.

In a similar way, destroying the phylactery won't harm Xykon. However, it means that if he's killed by some other means, then he'll die. REALLY die.

[BillyJimBoBob]

It would take V an action to cast, one which would not take up any of the bird's time. So, Shield, then BW takes his action and does a double move. Xykon has to use a spell that has that range: if Dispel does, great, if not, then he may have to use a spell that the bird can actually survive. If the bird is in range of the Dispel at that point, yes, it may be over, since we've already seen that X has Quicken, Maximize, and Empower, and can put all of them if necessary on a paltry 1st level spell. And also so long as Xykon, who has shown disdain for such plans in the past (didn't try MM because it was to low to bother with, didn't Dispel until advised to by Redcloak, and so on) actually thinks to do so.

Xykon has quicken? I thought that was not an option for spontaneous casters (or pedantically, an option that no spontaneous caster would spend a feat on). If he has quicken then he can cast 2 MMs in a single round, or any 2 spells one of which he is able to quicken. That makes buffing Blackwing even more pointless since even if V goes before Xykon there is little he can do which can not be undone and then Xykon has a spell left to do whatever he likes.

As for "little point", it gives the bird a chance that is not afforded by any other means, and in desperate times people do what they can and hope for the best. In reality, and even in games. There's always the chance Xykon will blow it (not use the uber Dispel for some reason and roll low) or, as he has before, just not think it through completely.

Yes, if it helped at all. But it doesn't. It actually puts Our Heroes behind the bad guy, in terms of actions and options. So it would be a poor choice to make.

In any event, it's just one plan. V could also have another Invisibility spell prepared, and X has been shown to not have or not bother with being able to see through such a thing. Again, one action, double move randomly, and so on.

Xykon can actually prevent V from casting at all by counterspelling anything he attempts and leaving himself a quickened spell to kill Blackwing with.

The tiny, little, written-in-blue "pop"-sound just made my day. Probably week and month too.

If you liked one tiny, little, written-in-blue "pop"-sound, then you'll just love this!

[David Argall]

It would take V an action to cast, one which would not take up any of the bird's time. So, Shield, then BW takes his action and does a double move.

Now in D&D terms, this depends on the order in initiative. If we have V-Blackwing-others, V can cast and then B moves with buff in place. The idea can work. But if we have Blackwing-V-others, B must wait for V to cast, which means Xykon can go first. The more careful player will tell B to delay so the initiative becomes V-B-X, but this does not work if the initiative order is V-X-B, in which case any delay just allows X an earlier and easier chance to attack.
Common sense tells us much the same. Any delay risks Xykon getting off another spell. It can be worth it, but it quite possibly will just make things harder.

In any event, it's just one plan. V could also have another Invisibility spell prepared, and X has been shown to not have or not bother with being able to see through such a thing. Again, one action, double move randomly, and so on.

One Invisibility to sneak off or up is a reasonable idea, but if you are having to do it twice in a day, you should be a rogue, not a wizard.

I'm missing something. Why would the Snarl destroy the phylactery? I recall that Dorukan's Gate destroyed Xykon's body, but that was the Gate, not the Snarl.

According to given information, the Snarl destroys anything and everything. So if it can notice the phylactery, it will try to destroy it, and we have to assume it will succeed.
Now we are dealing with third and 4th hand testimony, by biased sources as well. And what we have seen [or rather, not seen, such as the Snarl not showing up at this huge rift.] can make us wonder if we have an accurate picture of the snarl. [One alternative picture might be that it is simply a very very powerful baby, who gets upset when woken from a nap.] So we can't be certain here. But on the available evidence, putting the phylactery is the same as destroying it.

[Dilvish]

Sometimes I think I should put, "Wizard, not super wizard/sorcerer prestige class" in my sig. Surprisingly often, someone will argue that "Vaarsuvius not casting Spell X is a plot hole."

:) Kish,
I like that. Wizards have only so many spell slots to fill. If you try to cover every contingency, you can run out of useful spells quickly. Potions, scrolls, wands, and other magic items are really helpful.

I got similar flak even when I was playing my sorcerer in the Living Greyhawk campaign. He's a sorcerer, folks! Not a wizard! Do you understand he can know only so many spells?! After a while I got so tired of other people telling me how to play my sorcerer, I semi-retired him from the campaign. Strangely enough, I didn't get much of that nonsense from other arcane caster players, except for the powergamers.

I did have fun with his grimlock cohort. Starting out a barbarian, he took a level of bard, yodeled, painted, sometimes shot a short bow, and liked to drive their cart. All completely unoptimized for a grimlock, but fun.

dilvish
Hackmaster 5 playtester

[Elderac]

I don't think a single use of Magic Missile would take V's familiar down. If it were an ordinary raven, yes, but as a familiar, it gets 1/2 of V's hit points.

If someone wants to run the numbers and prove this theory one way or another, enjoy.

[Lamech]

<snippity>
According to given information, the Snarl destroys anything and everything. So if it can notice the phylactery, it will try to destroy it, and we have to assume it will succeed.
Now we are dealing with third and 4th hand testimony, by biased sources as well. And what we have seen [or rather, not seen, such as the Snarl not showing up at this huge rift.] can make us wonder if we have an accurate picture of the snarl. [One alternative picture might be that it is simply a very very powerful baby, who gets upset when woken from a nap.] So we can't be certain here. But on the available evidence, putting the phylactery is the same as destroying it.

If the snarl understands what the phylactery is it might keep it around until Xykon's soul shows up in it. And the same effect would happen if it doesn't notice stray bits of matter. Would be rather funny...

[liooil2000]

Operation raven suicide bomb has started, unless somehow Blackwing dodges the snarl and drops the phylactery into it or if it's too heavy or V didn't hand it out right and BW drops it...

[AyuVince]

Wow.. my mind is blown. I suspect one of the following events will happen:

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1. They manage to destroy the phylactery, but Xykon kills them. At least O-chul dies, V might be able to make a narrow escape. Xykon has to make a new phylactery, which delays his departure for weeks.

2. They fail to destroy the phylactery, but escape with the help of Qarr/the other OotS members/Master Aarindarius/the Azure City Resistance.

3. They manage to destroy the phylactery and escape, but Xykon has a backup phylactery.

4. The Snarl does something unexpected with the phylactery. Maybe it takes control of Xykon's body, or makes him stronger.

Which of my ideas is most likely? Is there anyone who has correctly guessed the Giant's plot moves before? ;)

[BillyJimBoBob]

I don't think a single use of Magic Missile would take V's familiar down. If it were an ordinary raven, yes, but as a familiar, it gets 1/2 of V's hit points.

If someone wants to run the numbers and prove this theory one way or another, enjoy.

I did so here Blackwing doesn't stand a chance.

[Zombie Nixon]

1 or 2 would be my guess. Though if they actually do destroy the phylactery, they're both gonna be soul bound

[A Guy]

I can bet you that the phylactery is not going to be destroyed as of now - the plot must go on!

[BillyJimBoBob]

Geek mode back on: e=mc^2 IN ST:TNG They literally channeled energy through a converter to make the matter that was the food. Just like a transporter, but on a less exact level (IIRC there was something about quantum levels or something) ((Here's a plot problem- The loss of a few neutrons of mass produces massive amounts of energy in an atomic bomb. the amount of energy required to make a 500 gram sundae (or produced by changing a 200 lb Klingon into pure energy) is PHENOMENAL. Like "don't miss or you'll destroy the planet" kind of energy) Geek mode back off.

No plot problem at all, actually. The energy needed is actually quite trivial, as long as you've got a handy matter/antimatter reactor on at all times to power your warp drive. e=mc^2, and that equation like any other works both ways. It only takes the mutual annihilation of the exact mass of whatever is desired to be created by the replicators. The matter is converted to energy in the reactor, then back to matter at the point of replication. Add a trivial amount of matter for any inefficiencies in the system and you're done.

[wootage]

Spoilery reply?

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Familiars shun liches, unless they're rat or... bat!

Or Teevos :D

[wootage]

If the snarl understands what the phylactery is it might keep it around until Xykon's soul shows up in it. And the same effect would happen if it doesn't notice stray bits of matter. Would be rather funny...

Nah, canon is that the Snarl is an unthinking killing machine that destroys all creation. The phylactery is toast if it makes it into the rift.

[Simanos]

No he isn't, because the Giant came along on page 10, and explicitly told us that "Replenish = pick new spells".

V didn't prepare another fly spell. It may have been a poor tactical choice, and nobody on this forum would have done it, but that's what happened.

EDIT: The Word of God...

I see. Well in my defence that wasn't mentioned in the post I critiqued.
So that settles it, though I'm sure some people could argue that Giant is ret-conning this and that he didn't actually foresee it. And it's improbable, but not impossible so I won't yell at them and I hope some other people keep their calm too.

[multilis]

Snarl *was* unthinking killing machine that destroys all creation. Snarl may evolve/have charactor growth/etc. Snarl *isn't* killing stuff near rifts like the early days.

The show isn't over if X loses his precious, just means he is more vulnerable/mortal.

[Elderac]

Ah, thanks, BillyJimBoBob.

I looked at that post and I guess it just didn't register, but then I was skimming through posts pretty quickly.

[DrakebloodIV]

Dude, what if the phylacetry dosen't get destroyed when it goes in there. If the snarl dosen't destroy everying then Xykon wouldn't be able to make another. And that would mean when he dies he gets munched by the snarl and dosent get to go to hell even, he gets his soul ripped apart.

[Lamech]

Nah, canon is that the Snarl is an unthinking killing machine that destroys all creation. The phylactery is toast if it makes it into the rift.

Hmm... it seemed to wait before striking. Anyway my theory is unlikely, just random speculation I'm tossing out.