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2009-06-02, 01:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread
Thanks, just making sure I had that rule right. I did, in fact, read your entire post.
It would take V an action to cast, one which would not take up any of the bird's time. So, Shield, then BW takes his action and does a double move. Xykon has to use a spell that has that range: if Dispel does, great, if not, then he may have to use a spell that the bird can actually survive. If the bird is in range of the Dispel at that point, yes, it may be over, since we've already seen that X has Quicken, Maximize, and Empower, and can put all of them if necessary on a paltry 1st level spell. And also so long as Xykon, who has shown disdain for such plans in the past (didn't try MM because it was to low to bother with, didn't Dispel until advised to by Redcloak, and so on) actually thinks to do so.
As for "little point", it gives the bird a chance that is not afforded by any other means, and in desperate times people do what they can and hope for the best. In reality, and even in games. There's always the chance Xykon will blow it (not use the uber Dispel for some reason and roll low) or, as he has before, just not think it through completely.
In any event, it's just one plan. V could also have another Invisibility spell prepared, and X has been shown to not have or not bother with being able to see through such a thing. Again, one action, double move randomly, and so on.
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2009-06-02, 01:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by Toper; 2009-06-02 at 01:34 PM.
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2009-06-02, 01:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-06-02, 01:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread
He used Magic Missile against Soon and his Ghost Paladins.
"Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman
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2009-06-02, 01:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread
Even were the phylactery to remain unscathed, it would be lying in the snarl's zone. Really, now, if you were Xykon, would you want to regrow with the Snarl as your neighbor?
In the rift is as good as gone, if it doesn't mean immediate permanent destruction of the bauble.
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2009-06-02, 01:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread
The Devils did promise that he would have all his spells slots replenished (Panel 3) by the splice, but thats beside the point. V himself has some decent flight and conjuration spells, so he most likely avoided having those prepared on his splices. Several flight spells may have been cast off panel. So 1-6 flight spells. That and however many spells V depleted durning splice time could easily deplete his stash. So V is really out of high level spells.
Last edited by DrakebloodIV; 2009-06-02 at 01:45 PM.
I make avatars if you ask nicely.
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2009-06-02, 01:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread
Spoiler
Neutral Good Human Wizard (4th Level)
Ability Scores:
Strength- 10
Dexterity- 14
Constitution- 12
Intelligence- 17
Wisdom- 16
Charisma- 12
Hmm, actually, what kind of stats those are... dragonborn?
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2009-06-02, 01:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread
I was responding to the idea that Magic Missile trumps Blackwing, specifically. That crappy Shield spell makes the bird completely immune to the one thing we know Xykon has, that has a long range, and doesn't give any form of save, and is being presented as making the "Give the necklace to Blackwing" plan pointless.
Obscuring Mist can be seen and therefore dispelled, so we come back to that.
Invisibility, which I also mentioned and which we know V had at least one of, is probably better than a "crappy" Obscuring Mist spell, since if Xykon can't happen to catch the bird in the area, Dispelling it won't work.
Expeditious Retreat could also be good, if the bird can get out of range (can't remember if that affects flying speed, though).
And putting one spell on the bird does not preclude just plain tackling the villain, and since he might have Still Spell in some way may not even help anyway.
But it all comes back to what V can do right now. I'm simply giving options that might make it possible for the overall plan to work, and at the power levels we're talking about nothing can be assumed to give more than a slight chance of victory. For that matter, maybe Xykon will come up, toss MM on the fleeing bird, then shout something like, "I can't believe I blew my Spell Penetration Roll on a bird!" (assuming V is high enough level for V's familiar to have SR, not sure).
The bird gives them a chance. Anything they can do to slightly improve that chance is a good choice, including all these crappy low-level spells.
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2009-06-02, 01:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread
Hang on though... All this is still assuming Blackwing will do what V says. Given that Blackwing has, in the past, refused to risk his/her life for V's sake, how can we have the slightest idea he/she will now risk being unmade (which is literally a fate worse than death)?
I smell suspense here...
And yes, I vote that X doesn't think his moves through and tries a Fireball or Magic Missile or something with too short range. Perhaps O-Chul will be able to slow him down too.
Having said that, spells with a Long range would reach more than 1200 feet (because we know that Xykon is at least 21st-level), and Fireball is in this category. How many rounds would Xykon get to throw spells at poor BW for? He only gets 40 ft./round (I think. d20 rules are not my speciality).
Other question: Would a 1000-foot drop smash a phylactery? Only that's what might happen if Xykon successfully kills BW. Heh heh heh...
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2009-06-02, 02:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread
For the record, I'm not sure V is aware of Blackwing's presence yet. Could be, but it doesn't look like the elf's noticed.
There comes a point at which drawing more scars on scarred individuals ceases to be worth the effort. Considering how battered this pair looks, I'd say we passed that threshhold some time ago.
I'd be somewhat amused if Redcloak (or, without his knowledge, Xykon) had modified his holy symbol to provide protection from fire to the wielder -- and V was treated as an attended object toted by O-Chul. The former would be a sensible precaution for Xykon's right hand minion, while the latter is a plausible enough gag for this series. I don't think either is necessary, but neither would surprise me.
Since we don't see Xykon in those panels, this cannot be assumed -- not that it matters, what with talking being a free action (as mentioned by Haley in a previous strip) and V's dialogue being surprisingly short.
Wait... Roy's black?
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2009-06-02, 02:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread
How about having O-chul suicidally attack Xykon, distracting his attention long enough for Blackwing to make hir run on the hole?
For that matter, why didn't O-chul punch Xykon's head off before swiping the philactery? Would that have made it more difficult for Xykon to cast a spell, or at least added some negative modifiers to his die rolls?
Respectfully,
Brian P.
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2009-06-02, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread
That's it exactly. The phylactery in D&D is like a weird version of a parachute. If someone takes your parachute and destroys it, it won't kill you or even harm you. However, if you then fall, you will die rather than easily surviving.
In a similar way, destroying the phylactery won't harm Xykon. However, it means that if he's killed by some other means, then he'll die. REALLY die.My name is actually supposed to be "Carnivorous Bean," but I didn't realize that it didn't fit until after I'd pressed the okay button.
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2009-06-02, 02:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread
Xykon has quicken? I thought that was not an option for spontaneous casters (or pedantically, an option that no spontaneous caster would spend a feat on). If he has quicken then he can cast 2 MMs in a single round, or any 2 spells one of which he is able to quicken. That makes buffing Blackwing even more pointless since even if V goes before Xykon there is little he can do which can not be undone and then Xykon has a spell left to do whatever he likes.
Originally Posted by gamephilOriginally Posted by gamephil
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2009-06-02, 02:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread
Now in D&D terms, this depends on the order in initiative. If we have V-Blackwing-others, V can cast and then B moves with buff in place. The idea can work. But if we have Blackwing-V-others, B must wait for V to cast, which means Xykon can go first. The more careful player will tell B to delay so the initiative becomes V-B-X, but this does not work if the initiative order is V-X-B, in which case any delay just allows X an earlier and easier chance to attack.
Common sense tells us much the same. Any delay risks Xykon getting off another spell. It can be worth it, but it quite possibly will just make things harder.
One Invisibility to sneak off or up is a reasonable idea, but if you are having to do it twice in a day, you should be a rogue, not a wizard.
Originally Posted by ss49
Now we are dealing with third and 4th hand testimony, by biased sources as well. And what we have seen [or rather, not seen, such as the Snarl not showing up at this huge rift.] can make us wonder if we have an accurate picture of the snarl. [One alternative picture might be that it is simply a very very powerful baby, who gets upset when woken from a nap.] So we can't be certain here. But on the available evidence, putting the phylactery is the same as destroying it.Last edited by David Argall; 2009-06-02 at 03:00 PM.
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2009-06-02, 03:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread
:) Kish,
I like that. Wizards have only so many spell slots to fill. If you try to cover every contingency, you can run out of useful spells quickly. Potions, scrolls, wands, and other magic items are really helpful.
I got similar flak even when I was playing my sorcerer in the Living Greyhawk campaign. He's a sorcerer, folks! Not a wizard! Do you understand he can know only so many spells?! After a while I got so tired of other people telling me how to play my sorcerer, I semi-retired him from the campaign. Strangely enough, I didn't get much of that nonsense from other arcane caster players, except for the powergamers.
I did have fun with his grimlock cohort. Starting out a barbarian, he took a level of bard, yodeled, painted, sometimes shot a short bow, and liked to drive their cart. All completely unoptimized for a grimlock, but fun.
dilvish
Hackmaster 5 playtester
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2009-06-02, 03:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread
I don't think a single use of Magic Missile would take V's familiar down. If it were an ordinary raven, yes, but as a familiar, it gets 1/2 of V's hit points.
If someone wants to run the numbers and prove this theory one way or another, enjoy.
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2009-06-02, 03:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread
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2009-06-02, 03:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread
Operation raven suicide bomb has started, unless somehow Blackwing dodges the snarl and drops the phylactery into it or if it's too heavy or V didn't hand it out right and BW drops it...
I am A:SpoilerLawful Neutral Human Wizard (1st Level)
Ability Scores:
Strength- 12
Dexterity- 10
Constitution- 10
Intelligence- 16
Wisdom- 15
Charisma- 12
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2009-06-02, 03:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread
Wow.. my mind is blown. I suspect one of the following events will happen:
Spoiler
1. They manage to destroy the phylactery, but Xykon kills them. At least O-chul dies, V might be able to make a narrow escape. Xykon has to make a new phylactery, which delays his departure for weeks.
2. They fail to destroy the phylactery, but escape with the help of Qarr/the other OotS members/Master Aarindarius/the Azure City Resistance.
3. They manage to destroy the phylactery and escape, but Xykon has a backup phylactery.
4. The Snarl does something unexpected with the phylactery. Maybe it takes control of Xykon's body, or makes him stronger.
Which of my ideas is most likely? Is there anyone who has correctly guessed the Giant's plot moves before? ;)
Retro Kerrigan from SC1. Sorry, I don't remember which forum user made this picture for me.
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2009-06-02, 04:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread
I did so here Blackwing doesn't stand a chance.
Last edited by BillyJimBoBob; 2009-06-02 at 04:15 PM.
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2009-06-02, 04:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread
1 or 2 would be my guess. Though if they actually do destroy the phylactery, they're both gonna be soul bound
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2009-06-02, 04:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread
I can bet you that the phylactery is not going to be destroyed as of now - the plot must go on!
I'm just... a guy...
SpoilerYou Are A:
Chaotic Evil Gnome Fighter (1st Level)
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Strength- 15
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Take the test at http://easydamus.com/character.html
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2009-06-02, 04:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread
No plot problem at all, actually. The energy needed is actually quite trivial, as long as you've got a handy matter/antimatter reactor on at all times to power your warp drive. e=mc^2, and that equation like any other works both ways. It only takes the mutual annihilation of the exact mass of whatever is desired to be created by the replicators. The matter is converted to energy in the reactor, then back to matter at the point of replication. Add a trivial amount of matter for any inefficiencies in the system and you're done.
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2009-06-02, 04:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-06-02, 04:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-06-02, 04:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread
I see. Well in my defence that wasn't mentioned in the post I critiqued.
So that settles it, though I'm sure some people could argue that Giant is ret-conning this and that he didn't actually foresee it. And it's improbable, but not impossible so I won't yell at them and I hope some other people keep their calm too.
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2009-06-02, 04:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread
Snarl *was* unthinking killing machine that destroys all creation. Snarl may evolve/have charactor growth/etc. Snarl *isn't* killing stuff near rifts like the early days.
The show isn't over if X loses his precious, just means he is more vulnerable/mortal.
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2009-06-02, 05:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread
Ah, thanks, BillyJimBoBob.
I looked at that post and I guess it just didn't register, but then I was skimming through posts pretty quickly.
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2009-06-02, 05:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread
Dude, what if the phylacetry dosen't get destroyed when it goes in there. If the snarl dosen't destroy everying then Xykon wouldn't be able to make another. And that would mean when he dies he gets munched by the snarl and dosent get to go to hell even, he gets his soul ripped apart.
I make avatars if you ask nicely.
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2009-06-02, 05:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread