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Thread: When has Haley...
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2009-09-25, 12:28 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2009
When has Haley...
...given roy reason to question her commitment to the team?
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2009-09-25, 12:32 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2009
- Location
- Ohio, USA
- Gender
Re: When has Haley...
I was wondering that too. I posted this speculation in the strip thread:
Edit: She also very sensibly threatened to leave when Miko was dragging them to Azure City. But ever since they found out just how high the stakes were (fate of the multiverse and all), she's been as dedicated to the quest as he has.
She also pointed out to him during the dirt farmer thing that she can be altruistic when it's not just Roy's desires (blood oath, starmetal, bumping uglies with the paladin) at stake. Again, the fate of existence is a bit bigger than that.Last edited by Herald Alberich; 2009-09-25 at 12:39 AM.
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2009-09-25, 12:38 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
Re: When has Haley...
Even with that, though, the treasure was always secondary for Roy. If she's on board to kill Xykon at all costs - and she definitely has been, with more than a few chances to cut and run that she didn't take - would he really care if she weasels her way into an extra-large share of the spoils?
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2009-09-25, 12:40 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
Re: When has Haley...
Haley's a rogue.
'Nuf said.Last edited by Tijne; 2009-09-25 at 12:41 AM.
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2009-09-25, 12:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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- NorCal
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Re: When has Haley...
Personally I think Haley's worry about Roy is more revealing of H's worldview (= lots of paranoia and also low self-esteem) than it is about anything Roy actually would or does think nowadays...
...on the OTHER HAND, way back in strip #14 we do have one glimpse of Roy's inner thoughts on the subject-
Certainly there's been a lot of water under the bridge since then-
but- in-comic at least (and therefore canon) - at least at one point Roy *didn't* trust Haley 100%...Last edited by Elan's Modron; 2009-09-25 at 12:50 AM.
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2009-09-25, 12:50 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2009
- Location
- Ohio, USA
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Re: When has Haley...
And that used to be reason enough for Roy. But he knows her much better now and she went to great lengths to get him raised, almost getting killed herself in the process.
Every single reason I can think of for Haley to believe Roy doesn't trust her requires her to think he's much dumber or more small-minded than he is.
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2009-09-25, 01:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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- NorCal
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2009-09-25, 01:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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- NorCal
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Re: When has Haley...
^^ That said, I do think that Haley's distrust of others is more than a little overstated, at this point in time. I only read the Cryptogramese arc retroactively (=not when it first came out) - and/but it felt rather belabored.
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2009-09-25, 01:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
Re: When has Haley...
It's probably just more of Haley's chronic self-doubt at work. Much like her tendency to keep other people out: even if she's improved a lot in that regard, it's still a part of her.
So even if Roy does trust her, she's probably not entirely ready to believe it.Last edited by Haven; 2009-09-25 at 01:10 AM.
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2009-09-25, 01:20 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2009
- Location
- Ohio, USA
- Gender
Re: When has Haley...
The above few posters are probably right, and if Haley had said "I know Roy doesn't trust me enough to believe I'll stick with him right now", I'd leave it at that. But she thinks there are specific actions she's done in the past to give Roy that impression, and I'm trying to figure out which of them make the most sense. I'm probably just overthinking it.
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2009-09-25, 01:21 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2008
- Location
- Elyria, Ohio
- Gender
Re: When has Haley...
Maybe it's a Law vs Chaos thing. Although OotS has never used alignments to shackle a character's personality, or define who does and doesn't get along, it might still be a source of mistrust between them.
Roy is lawful (if not overtly so, as pointed out by the Astral Deva). He gets along very well with the other lawful member of the team, Durkon, because when they first met he was impressed with his commitment to their adventuring group, even though they treated him like dirt. The concept of honor and trust is very central to his personality.
On the other hand, he is not particularly fond of dealing with the other two chaotic members of the team, Elan and Belkar. In fact, they are pretty much the bane of his existence. They tend to do whatever suits them, without much thought for team dynamics. As their leader/babysitter, this is an unending source of stress for Roy.
Maybe he lumps Haley in with them because she also has shown a severe tendency for thinking of herself first and the team second.
Or at least she thinks he does. She once said (of herself and her fellow chaotic Order members) "The three of us are so consistently and staggeringly irresponsible that it's utterly unreasonable to expect us to have been paying any attention in the first place."
But Roy is a reasonable man, and the fact that she risked her neck to have him resurrected surely means a lot to him. But distrusting people is Haley's nature, and she probably expects others to treat her the same way she treats them. Now that they are back together, maybe she will realize just how much faith Roy has in her, and she will learn to return that faith.
Or maybe it's just funnier when she keeps secrets. Gotta keep the fans dreading that the crypto-speak will rear its ugly head again!How to Play Rogues Properly:
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2009-09-25, 01:28 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
Re: When has Haley...
I don't think Roy doubts her, not at this time anymore.
I mean sure he joked with her about sabotaging the mission to win 10g in #666, but that was clearly a joke.
Roy has seen how dedicated she was while he was dead, she could have done the easy thing and say "screw it, screw roy's corpse, I'm robbing this place blind and by myself a kingdom", but she didn't.
However I believe Haley still has doubts about herself, and the issues with trusting othes plays into it too.
She thinks Roy would believe she abandons the quest now that she has what she originally joined up for (enough cash to free her dad). Maybe because she originally (aka before Azure city) would have really done it and knows it. Or maybe because she would think that about others if she ever learned.
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2009-09-25, 01:29 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
- Location
- Manchester, UK
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Re: When has Haley...
I got the impression that when she says she's given Roy enough reason to doubt her commitment that it's been through what she SAYS, not what she does. If we need actions to reinforce it, well, going into a state of aphasia due to keeping too many secrets and/or losing all your loot doesn't give a great deal of confidence in what your priorities are!
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2009-09-25, 06:44 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
- Location
- Germany
- Gender
Re: When has Haley...
I think the part about Roy not trusting her was a rationalisation on her part. After all, she admitted that Elan was right that it's not something she'd like the sound of when phrased out loud, and not wanting to burden Roy with unneeded worries (IF that were the case) is a perfectly sensible reason and nothing to be ashamed of. Then the comic dives into her rogue's mindset and paranoia about people.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the Roy thing is just a (sub?)conscious cover on her part and she's really just loath to open up to him like that, as it was emphasized in the comic.
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2009-09-25, 08:16 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
Re: When has Haley...
Haley has trust issues that also implies that she has a hard time accepting other people's beliefs. Ergo she thinks Roy doesn't trust her. Or even likes her as a companion, we've seen this in the whole Elan and Haley getting together arc.
It's just the self-loathing talking.
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2009-09-25, 04:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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Re: When has Haley...
It is a rather distracting side-quest. I interpreted her comment as "I don't want to give Roy something else to worry about" rather than "If I confess Roy will never trust me again!" Everyone except Belkar is pretty firmly committed to beating Xykon, but the quest has been derailed by people's personal problems often enough in the past (see V's most recent arc, anything with the Linear Guild, Durkon/Hilgya, Miko) that Roy could have legitimate concerns. It's not so much a matter of questioning Haley's loyalty as worrying that they'll have to spend half a book rescuing Ian instead of looking for the Gate, because Chekhov's Subplots never get successfully put off until after the main quest is over.
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2009-09-25, 05:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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- NorCal
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Re: When has Haley...
Very briefly off-topic:
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2009-09-26, 04:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
Re: When has Haley...
Thanks for th replies all.
I agree that it is probably all in Haley's own low view of herself. It just seemed kinda odd to read it after seeing Haley deal with her Self Loathing personification.
If I had to rank who Roy trusts the most it would be:
1. Durkon
2. Haley
3. Vaarsuvius
4. Celia
5. His Bag of Many Tricks
6. The flumps ( they've always been there for him except for that one time...)
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98. William Shatner
99. Belkar
100. Elan
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2009-09-26, 08:15 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
Re: When has Haley...
Well, the reason for Haley's promotion to second in command of the OotS in OotPCs was
Spoilerto give her less incentive to just rob all teammates and vanish
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2009-09-26, 08:36 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
Re: When has Haley...
Also, she's build up this thing with Elan, this relationship. Something she's never done before, she is trying(succesfully) to be close with somebody. She's not going to want to give that up. That counts pretty much as loyalty to Elan.
Who in turn, is loyal to Roy.(as party leader and such)
Also I think that these days, Roy would be more liable to trust Elan, with his +1 competence from Dashing Swordsman and Haley's effect on Elan.
And Elan also is good while Belkar is not, Belkar doesn't really care about their goal while Elan does(for plot! And plot-kin!)
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2009-09-26, 08:46 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
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- I really don't know...
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Re: When has Haley...
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"Get the Lead out" #281
The Lead sheet? Ba! It doesn't matter now, it didn't prevent me from finding you.
True. Luckily, its a multipurpose lead sheet.
What possible other purpose could a big lead...
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2009-09-26, 10:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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- Somewhere
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Re: When has Haley...
i think its more self doubt from Haley then Roy's mistrust
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2009-09-26, 10:04 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
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Re: When has Haley...
It might also be a relapse of her belief that Roy died because she wasn't prepared enough to battle Xykon (#444).
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2009-09-26, 10:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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- London
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2009-09-26, 12:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2005
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- Spain
Re: When has Haley...
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2009-09-26, 01:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
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- Germany
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Re: When has Haley...
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2009-09-26, 01:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2008
- Location
- Elyria, Ohio
- Gender
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2009-09-26, 02:50 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
- Location
- Germany
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Re: When has Haley...
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2009-09-26, 04:26 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2008
Re: When has Haley...
I think Roy trusts Bekar at least a little more than Elan. Roy can depend upon Belkar to do something fairly predictable. Belkar is a man of simple wants. Elan is completely unpredictable. Sometimes Roy can depend on Elan to do something, a lot of times he can't. But Roy can get Belkar to do a lot of things effectively.Last edited by DBJack; 2009-09-26 at 04:28 PM.
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2009-09-27, 08:16 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
Re: When has Haley...
Might depend on how much time has gone by.
Early on: "Why Roy is Always Tired" it appeared that he believed it was plausible that Haley would loot the party and run off, and Haley is alongside Belkar and Elan in reasons to keep watch himself.
Since then though, Elan has tended to continue to be problematic, whereas Haley has been rather more useful (Elan's moment of most competence was probably the escape from Cliffport and capture of Nale)
Roy knows Belkar has continued to cause problems even without the Mark, and now he's lost it. On the other hand, according to Haley, he's behaving unusually well at the moment.
My guess is, that Roy trusts Belkar to be more reliable in a combat situation, but Elan to be less of a liability in interaction with strangers.
Other members of the order may have a slightly different view.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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