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Thread: LGBTitp - Part Six
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2010-04-19, 05:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTitp - Part Six
Yes, very much the same here. Rather uncommon term, but in most situations bisexual works exactly the same.
I'm thinking about coming out to those people of whom I'm not sure they figured it out years ago. Not that I expect anyone of them to react more than mildly suprised, but I guess every openly out person helps to get people more used to having us around.We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.
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2010-04-19, 06:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTitp - Part Six
Hi, everyone. I'm having a bit of trouble with this, but I guess I'll start with the question and explain the context. How do you ask a guy out?
Context: A good friend of mine (let's call him A) is suspected to be gay. Apparently, he came out to another friend (B). B told me, but I don't know if that was a breach of A's trust or something. So, how do I ask a guy out if I don't know whether or not I should know he's gay?
Thanks, guys. I have exactly no experience in these matters, so any advice you can offer would be appreciated.
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2010-04-19, 06:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTitp - Part Six
Well, if B is a good source of information and you really like A, you could just ask him on a date and make it seem like you've figured it out on your own. I'm not saying lie, but you don't want A to be mad at B for not being secretive or something.
Don't open up with anything like "Hey, I heard you were gay" or something like that. If you know he is there's no need to preface it. Just ask the dude out. If he withdraws, or claims to "not be that way", or if B was an unreliable source, then back out and say you're sorry, not "but B told me that you were"
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2010-04-19, 07:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTitp - Part Six
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2010-04-19, 07:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-04-19, 07:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-04-19, 08:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTitp - Part Six
First off, thanks everyone! I agree that in practicality, pansexual is pretty much equivalent with bisexual. I don't object to bisexual; I just am more comfortable with pansexual at this time. Of course, no label is perfect- I still get jokes about, "Oh you're sexually attracted to everything? What about rocks?" or "Haha, you like pans!"
I haven't come out to my parents yet... Not sure when/if/how I will. On the one hand, I've been dating a male for over two years now and I think it would confuse my parents or seem like "Well, why do we need to know this?" On the other hand, it's bound to come up eventually, even if I stay with my current boyfriend since we're polyamorous (which is a whole 'nuther barrel o' worms).
Well, does he know you're gay? If he already does, probably couldn't hurt to be straightforward and say you're somewhat interested and would like to go on a date. I hope it works out for you!
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2010-04-19, 08:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTitp - Part Six
Doesn't pansexuality have to do with what genders you're attracted to as well? Like I'm romantically and sexually attracted to femmey/womanly--doesn't have to be super femme (I dig strong chicks, personality wise and on a level physically), but someone who identifies as a woman, y'know?--and androgynous and genderqueer women, and find some more feminine or cute looking guys attractive. I don't find super masculine or butch girls attractive though. Isn't pansexuality when you find ALL those genders attractive?
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2010-04-19, 09:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTitp - Part Six
Isn't pansexuality when you find ALL those genders attractive?
Originally Posted by The Neoclassic
Does that make sense? I know this could quickly devolve into "What qualifies as a gender or as gender expression?" but that could easily get long, tiring, and off-track so I'll try to avoid it.
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2010-04-19, 09:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTitp - Part Six
Well, to me, pansexual pretty much means "I don't let categories or labels like gender get in the way of who I am attracted to or not"
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2010-04-19, 09:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTitp - Part Six
That pretty much summs it up. ^^
That be more like omnisexual. Every person is attractive to you.
I would say that pansexuals don't disqualify anyone from being a potential partner because of gender. For example, for a (strictly) heterosexual man, all man and transsexuals would not be considered as potential partners, and it doesn't matter what other qualities they have. Personalty and other things are completely irrelevant at that stage.
But I think pansexuals don't do this step. No gender is a disqualifying factor and they go straight to other things they might regard as attractive on a person.Last edited by Yora; 2010-04-19 at 09:59 AM.
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2010-04-19, 09:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTitp - Part Six
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2010-04-19, 09:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTitp - Part Six
I use pansexual to describe myself because I cannot predict who I will be attracted to. And while it often falls in line with your list (I am attracted mostly to people who are on the feminine to androgynous/genderqueer spectrum, regardless of sex characteristics), this is not always the case. I have meet some really hot trans-masculine folks as well as identified men. Because I can't predict it there is always a possibility. I don't feel that one who identifies as pansexual has to find all expressions equally attractive, no more then someone who is bi has to find an equal amounts of men and women attractive.
Also, I guess I'm in the group that like pansexual because they feel bisexual excludes people who don't fit in the binary either via gender or sex. I'm a bit of a nitpicker
Well that's my two cents regarding pansexual.
EDIT:
Suuuuuuure go ahead and say it much better then I did. jerk.Last edited by Ostien; 2010-04-19 at 10:01 AM.
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2010-04-19, 10:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTitp - Part Six
Where does it say bisexuality is about being attacted to only manly-men and womanly-women? It's just "not attracted overwhelmingly to one sex or the other". A bisexual can be attracted to all and anyo of those people - it's just preference, like a preference for hair colour or a sense of humour. "Pansexual" may be a more accurate substitute for "bisexual", but I don't see that mere interest in non-usual binary genders is unique to it. I mean, by that theory we need another term for heterosexuals for whom cis- and transexual status is irrelevant, or who have a preference for butch girls/effeminate men.
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2010-04-19, 10:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTitp - Part Six
I think you have quite a good point. I know that's not what bisexual necessarily means, but for me it retains that connotation (as I have known people who use it to mean "I'm attracted to masculine men and feminine women, and not really those in between"). I think it really is a matter of personal preference whether one uses "bisexual" or "pansexual." When in doubt, it's always best to actually discuss labels which people; they are good as starting points, but hardly accurate representations of the vast array of sexual orientations there are out there. One person's straight may be another person's heteroflexible; one person's bisexual may be another's heteroflexible. And queer, from how I've heard it used, can mean practically anything!
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2010-04-19, 10:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTitp - Part Six
Yeah it really is a semantic preference issue, I just cringe at the 'bi' in bisexual but that's just how I react and thus like pansexual as a term better.
"In those halcyon days I believed that the source of enigma was stupidity. Then the other evening in the periscope I decided that the most terrible enigmas are hose that mask themselves as madness. But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth." -Casaubon, Foucault's Pendulum
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2010-04-19, 12:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-04-19, 12:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTitp - Part Six
I'd personally go with Omni. Less limiting. (Smirk)
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2010-04-19, 12:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTitp - Part Six
Yes, but omni- opens one up to... much more in the way of unfortunate implications. With pansexual, the worst that's usually done is people making jokes about you and fresh baked baguettes.
So, what, a woman's not heterosexual if she's attracted to feminine men? What is she then? What's a man if he's attracted to masculine women? What if he's attracted to women from masculine to androgynous to feminine?
Honestly. Do you see how much extra work you're putting into things if you let gender muddle things up?
It's like coming up with tags to denote one's willingness to sleep with MtF vs. FtM.
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2010-04-19, 01:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTitp - Part Six
The 'unfortunate' implications were entirely intentional. I was (mostly) joking, thus the (shot). XD
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2010-04-19, 01:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTitp - Part Six
I don't think people get shot over unfortunate implications.
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2010-04-19, 01:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTitp - Part Six
I didn't say that. I just said what general connotation it has for me. And I was really thinking of very androgynous people who don't feel they fit into the binary gender categories rather than just, say, meterosexual dudes or women who have short hair and play sports. Again, this is getting into "Where is the line between a distinct gender identity and differing forms of gender expression?"
Honestly. Do you see how much extra work you're putting into things if you let gender muddle things up?
It's like coming up with tags to denote one's willingness to sleep with MtF vs. FtM.
See why I think it's really not so simple when you start to think about it? I use the label I like, and I have opinions about other labels, but as long as people are clear, I recognize that everyone will interpret things a bit differently. People may label me bisexual, pansexual, queer, or heteroflexible from their view of my sexuality, but as long as they respect my preference and know why I use it, it's not a big deal.Last edited by The Neoclassic; 2010-04-19 at 01:49 PM.
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2010-04-19, 03:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTitp - Part Six
you people spend a lot of time defining labels, but when you simplify a complex idea down to a single word (even a really long one) it loses something; either truth or specificness, sometimes both. so stop trying to distill your sexuality or political views or general idealogy into one word. why does everyone do this? sorry, just tired of lurking at those discussions on nearly every topic almost everywhere i go and saying nothing.
i hope that wasnt too incoherent.current excuse for incoherence: heat
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2010-04-19, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTitp - Part Six
I see your point, but people like to define themselves in ways they can understand.
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2010-04-19, 04:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTitp - Part Six
I imagine you ask him out the same way that you would anyone else. I mean, there's a lot of situations in which the asker isn't certain if the ask-ee (is so a word ) is gay, but just goes out on a limb. It's not like most people walk around with labels on their foreheads, after all; people take risks all the time. Just go for it! There's no need to preface the question with, "So, I heard you were gay...?" A simple, "Wanna go out?" or whatever your style is should work.
And good luck.
Plenty of straight fellows like musicals. And there are gay guys who don't.
Regarding the pan vs. bi definition debate -- egads, you people are making my head spin! All these different terms and definitions!
Personally, I fall into the "attracted to any sex/gender combination" category. I'd hate to limit myself, after all. If someone were to ask, I'd probably say "bi," if only because it's a term that more people are familiar with, but it feels sort of weird to label it when part of the point is about not having limitations. Honestly, it's the person I want to date, not their genitals. Which isn't to say that sex and physical intimacy aren't important, I've never understood what someone's plumbing has to do with anything.
*looks back over post* That's...a lot of smilies...
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2010-04-19, 04:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTitp - Part Six
wall o' text and quotes
SpoilerExcept you said it in such a way as to make it sound like a working definition you and those around you operated under.
And I was really thinking of very androgynous people who don't feel they fit into the binary gender categories rather than just, say, meterosexual dudes or women who have short hair and play sports.
Again, this is getting into "Where is the line between a distinct gender identity and differing forms of gender expression?"
And it also goes into the question of "where and how gender should enter into the terminology of sexuality." As otherwise we get situations like this one where the multiple ways gender can be taken to mean can lead to some very different interpretations.
Areas in which I believe there is still some level of confusion and misunderstanding.SpoilerHuh? I thought me being pansexual meant I'm /not/ letting gender muddle things up.
Now that I've read your reply fully, I don't think that's what you meant to be saying. Something about the implied idea of calling trans individuals "Manly girls" or "Girly men" in contrast to the stated "manly men" and "girly girls" for cis individuals just seems to rub me the wrong way and... seems like a less than ideal way to have put it if that's what you were going for.
Honestly. It's hard not to when our primary sexual labels are entirely defined by which genders we are willing to sleep with or date.
No one asks "What size are you attracted to? What hair color do you like?" It's always "Are you straight or gay?" It's unfortunate, and I wish it wasn't so much, but don't blame me for overanalyzing it when it really is such a big kerfuffle in society and people's interactions.
The naughty-bits being so central to it because, well, let's face it, sex is what sexuality is about. It's not about love or emotional attachments.
As it is, sexualities are broad labels that allow for individual tastes rather than having to utterly and totally encapsulate the sexual identity of a person. And I, personally, would much rather know that someone is, say, gay, rather than only attracted to clowns of the same sex who have black hair and black skin.
As for the size thing and the hair color thing, those sorts of things are asked but just not considered as necessary. Well, aside from the iconic "No Fatties" rule. Though, that's of course, more of a social convention/compact anyway.
A better question would be "If a woman is attracted to cisgendered men and trans men, are they straight, bisexual, pansexual, or heteroflexible?" And that yet again goes back to "Well, are trans men a different gender identity, or just a different sort of men, under the general umbrella of man that includes cisgendered men, trans men, genderqueer people who use masculine pronouns, etc?"
The fact that we still have to call them transmen or transwomen is enough to say that they do not count fully, or at least they don't if one can tell. Metaphysical issues ensue from the latter. Hopefully we'll have the capability someday to do away with the necessity of the label.
I use the label I like, and I have opinions about other labels, but as long as people are clear, I recognize that everyone will interpret things a bit differently. People may label me bisexual, pansexual, queer, or heteroflexible from their view of my sexuality, but as long as they respect my preference and know why I use it, it's not a big deal.
As of now, you've mentioned what I've found to be the only difference that I can understand, the Trans-Question. Being as how I have little experience with the subject, I would be loathe to try to wrangle the language in regards to that. Which is part of why I imagine it's never really been dealt with enough to come to my attention or the attention of others I've interacted with.
I am not exactly sure if I agree with the idea that bisexuals cannot be attracted to trans individuals, but I will agree that pansexual makes that particular segment more clear.
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2010-04-19, 05:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTitp - Part Six
@Coidzor: OK, I'm not going to respond point-by-point because that was crazylong but feel free to bring it up if you feel I missed something.
First of all, yes, that is the connotation "bisexual" has to me and my friends. That is not saying bisexuals can't be attracted to trans people. I would never claim that. I simply think "pansexual" sounds more inclusive and it has more open connotations to me. There is a difference between saying "That is how the term feels to me" and "This is how everyone must use it." I am doing the former, but either you think I'm doing the latter or else you think I shouldn't have those connotations even given that I own that that is simply how I use the term and not how everyone must use it. I think I have the right to associate "binary gender" with "bisexual" since it even has "bi" in the name. That is its suggestion- that one can be attracted to two genders, even when people don't use it that way now.
And no, intersex =/= "truly androgynous." If I dress in a way where you can't tell my gender from glancing at me, that doesn't make me intersex. For example, compare their wikipedia definitions; someone can identify as one but not the other.
I'm quite aware of what makes a trans man or a trans woman. Some of them do object to being lumped into a binary gender system. Others don't. I apologize if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying you know what their gender identity is and that genitals are what matter in terms of what makes someone straight or gay. That may be by your definition, but there is no consensus on that.
Also, you pretty much say that I'm racist because I find certain hair colors sexier than others? If you know of labels used on dating websites that define other aspects of sexual orientation as clearly as straight/bi/gay are used, please let me know. I have yet to see it- gender seems to be at the top of the list for importance.
Originally Posted by The Neoclassic
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2010-04-19, 05:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTitp - Part Six
*pop*
I thought that Pansexuality meant you were “gender blind” or “sex blind”. Meaning you don’t consider a persons sex or gender and aren’t attracted to those aspects of a person, while bisexuals do take those things into considerations. That’s not saying that all bisexuals prefer one sex to the other or don’t like transexuals, but just take it into considerations and are attracted to a persons sex/gender as much as the person him/her self.
*poof*
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2010-04-19, 05:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTitp - Part Six
So many words I never heard of! I'm scared to look them up...
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2010-04-19, 06:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTitp - Part Six
What? Trans? Chromosome? Gender?
Now if you were complaining about the frightening power of Words, Words, Words, Words. Well, then I'd understand better.
Also, Words, Words, Words, Words:SpoilerAlright, I understand and respect why you don't like the term now. I apologize for misinterpreting your explanation of your stance and reasoning behind it.
I do dispute that it is not about gender but about sex due to being a sexuality.
And no, intersex =/= "truly androgynous." If I dress in a way where you can't tell my gender from glancing at me, that doesn't make me intersex. For example, compare their wikipedia definitions; someone can identify as one but not the other.
Once an observer/potential sexual partner gets them naked, things change due to, well, being able to see what their sex is because whatever genitalia are down there should become apparent. In such a case, the observer's settings would call for a reanalysis of the situation if the observer's understanding of what the individual was did not jive with what was found in the individual's underwear.
I'm quite aware of what makes a trans man or a trans woman. Some of them do object to being lumped into a binary gender system. Others don't. I apologize if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying you know what their gender identity is and that genitals are what matter in terms of what makes someone straight or gay. That may be by your definition, but there is no consensus on that.
At least, that's what everyone else has said in past incarnations of the question in this thread seems to support. Though if I'm operating under an erroneous conclusion, I need to know.
And yes, genitalia are what matters in terms of making people heterosexual or homosexual. Like it or not, that's what it boils down to with the current definitions being based upon physical sex. Sure, there's those who want to go off of chromosomes more, but that requires more testing than simple visual confirmation.
If it were based on gender, then homosexual men would have sex with women with male-gender or even just women whose gender is more close to the masculine "side." This is not accepted as something that should happen under normal circumstances and honesty. In fact, most would say that the man was not actually homosexual in such a case.
Also, you pretty much say that I'm racist because I find certain hair colors sexier than others? I have yet to see it- gender seems to be at the top of the list for importance.
Having a sexuality based on one hair color above all others would not be a preference for that hair color, it would mean only being capable of sexual arousal by/desire for those with that hair color.
And what they're really asking for is sex, not gender. Unless they're asking for both.
I stand by labels being good starting-off points. I think I've been fairly flexible and reasonable in saying "This is what they mean to me- it means something different to different people."