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2010-07-12, 07:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Cunning Strike Stacking? [dnd3.5]
Does the Factotum ability Cunning Strike allow you to spend multiple inspiration points to gain multiple sneak attack dice? I don't think it allows it RAW, but I think it makes sense RAI. Factotums have the ability to nova, but they're screwed both offensively and defensively the rest of the fight.
What do you think?Last edited by Macrovore; 2010-07-12 at 07:41 PM.
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2010-07-12, 08:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cunning Strike Stacking? [dnd3.5]
This is the third thread on the topic in a few weeks, so the discussions for and against have been pretty hashed out.
Short version: It stacks if you disagree that sneak attack damage dice constitute a bonus to damage. There are arguments for and against that position. If it is a bonus, it cannot stack with itself.
RAI...well, who knows. Ask your DM.SpoilerOriginally Posted by JaronKOriginally Posted by TyndmyrOriginally Posted by Zaq
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2010-07-12, 08:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cunning Strike Stacking? [dnd3.5]
Most people go by letting them stack multiple uses, though mixed with FoI, thatīs a lot of d6. Personally, I wouldnīt allow more than a rogue of the same level.
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2010-07-12, 08:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cunning Strike Stacking? [dnd3.5]
(ninja'd!) We had this same topic discussed just a couple days ago. Better to dig up that thread, read it, and Reply if you still have any questions, rather than starting another one so soon.
A lot of d6 ... On. One. Single. Attack. Which might not even hit.
Even with Font of Inspiration, Cunning Strike is rather underpowered unless you combine it with some other nasty tricks.Last edited by Draz74; 2010-07-12 at 08:05 PM.
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2010-07-13, 12:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cunning Strike Stacking? [dnd3.5]
I don't have the link at this point in time, but on the FAQ for Factotum, it is stated that the Sneak Attack dice DO stack.
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2010-07-13, 03:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cunning Strike Stacking? [dnd3.5]
Indeed, the FAQ says they stack. However, as soon as you hit level 8 it's worthless, as an extra attack is worth far more than 3d6 sneak attack damage. Some exceptions apply for use of ambush feats and qualification for Craven, but it's still probably the worst and most situational of all the Factotum abilities.
JaronK
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2010-07-13, 04:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cunning Strike Stacking? [dnd3.5]
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2010-07-13, 04:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-07-13, 05:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cunning Strike Stacking? [dnd3.5]
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2010-07-13, 05:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cunning Strike Stacking? [dnd3.5]
Aye, those two do state it, but far as I remember Rogue's version doesn't. There might be other classes that neglect to mention that as well.
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2010-07-13, 06:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-07-13, 06:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cunning Strike Stacking? [dnd3.5]
Then again, even this method has been proven not to be totally reliable. For example, by strict reading, Dread Necromancer's Rebuke undead is based on Cleric levels, not Dread Necro levels. Writers are not infallible.
But, unless I am mistaken, you too think Factotums can stack SA dice?
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2010-07-13, 06:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cunning Strike Stacking? [dnd3.5]
Nope. The class doesn't include an exception to the basic stacking rule which keeps you from getting a bonus from the same source (Cunning Strike) more than once.
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2010-07-13, 06:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cunning Strike Stacking? [dnd3.5]
How would you handle the sneak attack granted by the Thief of Life PrC then?
Originally Posted by Sneak attack in Thief of Life's entryLast edited by Tshern; 2010-07-13 at 06:16 AM.
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2010-07-13, 06:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cunning Strike Stacking? [dnd3.5]
Last edited by Curmudgeon; 2010-07-13 at 06:31 AM.
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2010-07-13, 06:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cunning Strike Stacking? [dnd3.5]
So the sneak attack dice from, say, Magelord and Thief of Life would not go together? If so, I must that's one interesting ruling.
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2010-07-13, 06:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-07-13, 07:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cunning Strike Stacking? [dnd3.5]
But isn't the Factotum technically using the ability only once, but he simply charges it more, not unlike Psions are able to augment their powers?
Also, forgot to comment on the nature of the Rogue's Sneak attack. It must be a mistyping of somekind, because it most certainly isn't a natural ability, because it does not depend on the 'physical nature' of the Rogue in question. Assuming that is true, the ability has to, according to the SRD be either (Ex), (Su) or (Sp).
Here are the relevant quotations:
Originally Posted by SRD on Natural abilitiesOriginally Posted by SRD on Special abilities
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2010-07-13, 07:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cunning Strike Stacking? [dnd3.5]
I WAS THERELife is like a dungeon master, if it smiles at you, you just know that something terrible is about to happen
Now I haz deviant!
The DnD Logic
Now I haz Blog!
avatar by Me!
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2010-07-13, 08:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cunning Strike Stacking? [dnd3.5]
Nope. Cunning Strike is very consistent in the use of the singular.
Starting at 4th level, you can spend 1 inspiration point to gain 1d6 points of sneak attack damage. You must spend the inspiration point to activate this ability before making the attack roll.
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2010-07-13, 08:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cunning Strike Stacking? [dnd3.5]
I came to post that RAW it doesn't, RAI it does, but Curmudgeon had already given the correct answers with his usual efficiency.
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2010-07-13, 08:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cunning Strike Stacking? [dnd3.5]
Context is kind of important here. That "SRD" quotation is actually from the Monster Manual on page 6.
From the Primary Sources Errata Rule:The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. ... The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.Last edited by Curmudgeon; 2010-07-13 at 08:47 AM.
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2010-07-13, 10:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cunning Strike Stacking? [dnd3.5]
Yes it is. Rogue sneak attack is definitely Ex. If it was built in to the base shape of the Rogue it would be natural (such as claw attacks or wing based flight). If it were magical it might be Spell like or Supernatural. It's neither. Thus, it must be Extraordinary, as that's the only remaining option. Classes rarely give Natural abilities.
Consider that if you claim that all abilities not explicitly defined as otherwise (as opposed to implicitly) are natural, then Alter Self gives you spellcasting (it grants natural abilities, as per the Rules of the Game discussion on it). It also gives you darn near everything else you want.
This is a case of an implicit designation based on the page 180 PHB descriptions of Natural, Extraordinary, Supernatural, and Spell Like.
And the FAQ on Factotums still says the ability stacks.
JaronKLast edited by JaronK; 2010-07-13 at 10:32 AM.
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2010-07-13, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cunning Strike Stacking? [dnd3.5]
That's an interesting opinion, but it's not backed up by the text of the rules.
Originally Posted by JaronKErrata Rule: Primary Sources
When you find a disagreement between two D&DŪ rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees.
Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.
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2010-07-13, 11:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cunning Strike Stacking? [dnd3.5]
I'm using the PHB as my only source (in addition to the FAQ and rules of the games articles on the topics). Page 180 clearly describes what Natural Abilities are. Alter Self, also in the PHB, follows the same rules. I'm fully aware of the priority and primary source rules.
What you're missing here is that many abilities are implicitly, not explicitly, defined in core. Later on, these abilities gained explicit definitions. For example, Fighter Bonus Feats are not listed as anything, but feats are always Ex unless otherwise mentioned. Sneak Attack is not listed as anything, but non magical abilities that are not based on the physical structure of the creature are always Ex unless otherwise mentioned. Later books got a little better about defining what these things were (including that Sneak Attack is Ex) but page 180 of the PHB is clear about what these abilities must be.
So yes, Sneak Attack is ALWAYS Ex unless otherwise defined, because PHB 180 says so. So are Fighter Bonus feats and other non magical class abilities. Classes almost never grant Natural abilities, because those are inherent abilities based on the physical shape of the creature (such as wing based flight, claw attacks, and non magical breathing modes), which is rarely changed by the class itself.
Again, I even stated in my last post that I was using the PHB for this definition. I don't know why you're quoting primary source rules as though the Monster Manual was in disagreement on this issue.
JaronK
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2010-07-13, 11:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cunning Strike Stacking? [dnd3.5]
"Implicit" rules aren't RAW; they're house rules, absent some explicit rules to back them up. Your categorization of sneak attack is contrary to the RAW statement from the Player's Handbook. You'll need to supply an actual rule citation if you want to defend your position.
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2010-07-13, 02:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cunning Strike Stacking? [dnd3.5]
Thanks for that! I didn't have the book at hand, so my recollection was wrong, yours correct. The FAQ still seems to disagree, but far as I am concerned, the answer you gave matches with that of the original source.
I do still, however, disagree about the nature of Rogue's Sneak attack.
JaronK: Thank you for that. Always a pleasure to see you at work! Hope you're doing great!