MitD - What We Know

[keybounce]

The MitD is a high level magic user.

Some race that has ultravision, so it can read spell books in the darkness.

Overweight, so it looks ugly, which is why it stays in the dark.

...

I mean, think about it. A high level magic user would have no problems duplicating the effects we see it doing. A very small spell book would explain why it only does those. Low int (barely magic-user able) and low wisdom would allow it to behave the way it does.

[Beorn080]

Except that Redcloak knows that it has no levels in cleric, and probably no levels in wizard or other book classes, since he says it can't animate dead.

[Lizard Lord]

The MitD is a high level magic user.

Some race that has ultravision, so it can read spell books in the darkness.

Overweight, so it looks ugly, which is why it stays in the dark.

...

I mean, think about it. A high level magic user would have no problems duplicating the effects we see it doing. A very small spell book would explain why it only does those. Low int (barely magic-user able) and low wisdom would allow it to behave the way it does.

It stays in the dark because Xykon said so. Also, a spell caster with low wisdom, intelligence, and charisma? What does it use to cast spells?

[Rotipher]

A high level magic user would have no problems duplicating the effects we see it doing. A very small spell book would explain why it only does those. Low int (barely magic-user able) and low wisdom would allow it to behave the way it does.

Except Monster-san can't even see itself in the dark, so how's it supposed to read a spellbook?

[Mr. Shiny Objec]

The MitD is a high level magic user.

Some race that has ultravision, so it can read spell books in the darkness.

Overweight, so it looks ugly, which is why it stays in the dark.

...

I mean, think about it. A high level magic user would have no problems duplicating the effects we see it doing. A very small spell book would explain why it only does those. Low int (barely magic-user able) and low wisdom would allow it to behave the way it does.

My DnD books are a little out of date, but is there still a sorceror class? MitD could be one naturally and still have low int and wis stats.

[Kish]

The MitD is a high level magic user.

Some race that has ultravision, so it can read spell books in the darkness.

Overweight, so it looks ugly, which is why it stays in the dark.

...

I mean, think about it. A high level magic user would have no problems duplicating the effects we see it doing. A very small spell book would explain why it only does those. Low int (barely magic-user able) and low wisdom would allow it to behave the way it does.

I know this is a joke, but I'm thinking the D&D rules misunderstanding is serious, so. In order to cast any spell, you need a rating in the related spellcasting ability of at least 10+the level of the spell. The highest-level magic user with an 11 in Intelligence (if wizard), Wisdom (if cleric or druid), or Charisma (if sorcerer or bard) can cast no spells above first level. The creature in the darkness has done nothing that could be explained by low-level spells. (Nor, for that matter, is there a type of vision called "ultravision." Everquest, perhaps?)

[ArcadiaGM]

One of the mistakes being made in this analysis IMO is assuming that everyone (Hunters, Redcloak, and Xykon) has perfect knowledge.

For example, if it is a creature that can take different forms, then the hunters would see the form that it took, not what it really was. That would certainly fit their observation that they were seeing a natural creature, but one that could talk and that was outside of its normal environment.

I think that whatever it is, the MITD has the ability Alter Reality. This fits (as near as I can tell -- I don't play D&D) with the powers that the MITD has manifested, and if I'm reading the SRD correctly, makes the MITD some kind of deity.

Just because Redcloak and Xykon *think* they know what they have doesn't make it so.

[Deuce]

Nor, for that matter, is there a type of vision called "ultravision." Everquest, perhaps?

Older versions of D&D (pretty sure it was in 2nd Ed.). Pretty much like Infravision with no need for heat differences. I think special types of radiation enhanced it, so Underdark types like Deep Gnomes (no I can't spell that other name they have) and maybe Drow had it. Huge advantage over Infravision would be the ability to read in the (seeming) dark.

Just to track back to the thread. I get where the "class levels in some kind of caster" comes from, but the way we've seen power manifested really points to abilities, that the MitD isn't often aware of even using. I'm really warming to the idea that it is something that either can change shape, or even more likely, projects an appearance of its choosing to those who see it. Might explain why Red Cloak told it that he knew what it is - not just a statement, but maybe a bit of a threat, i.e. "I know what you really are, so i know how to deal with you".

Take the shape-shift/project image idea one step further, perhaps the MitD isn't totally in control of this ability - because of age or maybe some sort of debilitating effect. Sort of fits with something that thinks of reality as a plaything to be shaped by its will. Maybe it's a Q.

Not totally sure about the lack of resistance to mind affecting spells - we know what Xykon thinks he's compelled the MItD to do, but we've never seen it carried out (and good thing for Red Cloak).

[lothos]

(Nor, for that matter, is there a type of vision called "ultravision." Everquest, perhaps?)

1st Edition A&D had an ability called "Ultravision". There was another ability called "Infravision". There was no ability called "Darkvision" or "Low Light Vision", which the 3.5 edition rules have.

Infravision was the ability to see heat, and it only worked when there was no "regular" light. It was useless against undead and constructs which give off no heat. It was useful underground, but only if the part had no humans and ALL the party members had infravision. Or when the elfen thief (rouge) was souting ahead.

Ultravision was the ability to see by Ultraviolet light. It only worked above ground at night. It was black and white, but otherwise the same as normal vision. Like Infravision, it was ruined by any regular light.

Most of the demi-human races from 1st edition (Elf, Dwarf, Halfling, Half Orc, Gnome) all had Infravision. However no playable "core" race had ultravision. There was a magic item called "lens of ultavision" which were eye goggles that granted the ability. I think there was also a spell that granted ultravision.

I don't think MitD has ultravision or is a Wizard (or "Magic User" if he is from 1st Edition). Nor is he a cleric (strip 299) but it's possible he has sorcerer levels and just dosn't have the ability to animate dead.

I'm still clinging to the (unlikely) hope that he is a 1-headed mutant dread linnorm :-)

[Selene]

Deep Gnomes (no I can't spell that other name they have)

Svirfneblin.

Not totally sure about the lack of resistance to mind affecting spells - we know what Xykon thinks he's compelled the MItD to do, but we've never seen it carried out (and good thing for Red Cloak).

MitD's eyes went swirly when Xykon gave him the instructions.

[Nerdanel]

Considering the combination of attributes that doesn't match anything, there's

Each time a living creature first views a specific dream larva from a distance of 30 feet or less (or from a scrying effect), the subject sees the image of the most fearsome creature imaginable. This is not an illusion or phantasm; the dream larva truly becomes, for just that instant, the subject’s worst nightmare. Even if simultaneously viewed by dozens of different creatures, the dream larva appears differently to each one of them.

if it's interpreted liberally and then there's stacking templates upon templates.

It's a difficult choice to make which is my current favorite.

Some basic comparisons:
- Tarrasque has CR 20, and more with templates; dream larva has CR 31.
- Tarrasque has strength 45, and more with templates; dream larva has strength 42.
- Tarrasque has natural armor +30, and more with templates; dream larva has natural armor +40.
- Tarrasque has DR 15/epic; dream larva has DR 15/good and epic or lawful and epic.
- Tarrasque has regeneration 40; dream larva has regeneration 15 and fast healing 15.
- Tarrasque has Swallow Whole; dream larva has an attack that engulfs the target.
- Tarrasque cannot fly but templates (I'm mainly thinking about Half-Dragon here) are highly likely to add the ability; dream larva can fly.
- Tarrasque has Frightful Presence; dream larva has Worst Nightmare.
- Tarrasque does not have Wish and there are no known templates to that effect; dream larva does not have Wish.
- Tarrasque does not have Earthquake and the template that gives it turns the target into an Outsider, no longer needing to eat or sleep; dream larva does not have Earthquake.

Pro-tarrasque:
- Ridiculous templates are inherently funny.
- Tarrasques are comparatively famous.
- Tarrasques don't require questionable rules interpretations to be affected by mind-affecting spells.
- Tarrasques are known for being voracious and indiscriminate eaters. Dream larvae do not need to eat.
- Tarrasques need to sleep. Dream larvae do not need to sleep.
- People not having died of fright at the sight of the MitD is more consistent with a tarrasque. It is unknown if a very young dream larva is scary enough to kill people by its appearance alone, but there is no evidence for it.
- MitD's description of his father is more consistent with a tarrasque.
- Tarrasques are not telepathic.
- Dream larvae are Always Chaotic Evil. Tarrasques are True Neutral and templates can modify the alignment into whatever fits best, including Chaotic Neutral, my favorite.
- A tarrasque has int 3, wis 14, and cha 14 (more with templates) while a dream larva has int 16, wis 24, cha 36. A tarrasque appears to be closer to what we know of the MitD's capabilities although I'd say both have too much wisdom and charisma. Young age may render this point moot though.
- The head of a tarrasque can be seen hidden in the go board.

Pro-larva:
- Dream larvae are cool! There is even an epic spell, Lord of Nightmares, built around them.
- A dream larva doesn't require weird family histories involving kinky dragons.
- A dream larva has blindsight while an unmodified tarrasque cannot see in darkness, let alone magical darkness.
- Keeping a dream larva under wraps when not in use makes especially good sense.
- Since dream larvae appear different to everyone, finding it hard to be seen by many people at once fits especially well for a dream larva.
- No matter how weird it looks with templates, would anyone actually vomit at the sight of a tarrasque?

[EmperorSarda]

Anyone play Exalted?

The MiTD is just the Unconquered Sun, before he rose up and threw down the primordials.

[Beorn080]

I had a thought. The eastern gods were killed by the snarl, but Durkon says you can't kill the gods. Perhaps MitD is Zeus reincarnated, but without memory of his past. There's precedent for almost all of the comic bits, from eating babies(Zeus's father ate the rest of the pantheon and a boulder representing Zeus.) to falling asleep after wishing O-Chul and V away (Alter Reality has rest for a couple rounds after a major effect in it.) Zeus himself was known for changing forms and doing wacky things, like seducing women as a goose.

[Celisasu]

Don't know if anyone noticed but after both the earthquake and the teleport, MitD got tired. He specficially says "I'm tired all of the sudden" after the quake and he actually goes to sleep after the teleport. He used a major magical ability twice, and got during both of them. Which further confirms the fact that he was the one who used that teleport then, not the fiends. Plus the fiends specifically said they couldn't interfere so we know they didn't do it then.

[ArcadiaGM]

I had a thought. The eastern gods were killed by the snarl, but Durkon says you can't kill the gods. Perhaps MitD is Zeus reincarnated, but without memory of his past. There's precedent for almost all of the comic bits, from eating babies(Zeus's father ate the rest of the pantheon and a boulder representing Zeus.) to falling asleep after wishing O-Chul and V away (Alter Reality has rest for a couple rounds after a major effect in it.) Zeus himself was known for changing forms and doing wacky things, like seducing women as a goose.

That's the line I'm thinking along -- some offspring or reincarnation of the gods, particularly within the Greek pantheon snuffed by the snarl, though whether he is an offspring of the gods, the snarl, or both I don't know.

The minor god Erebus has some interesting parallels with the MITD with his association with darkness and as an offspring of Chaos (thinking here of Chaos being somehow equivalent to the snarl), but I think Rich is probably thinking along more familiar lines than that.

[roy_greenhilt]

I'm sorry if there's another thread about this, but I just wanted to get my opinion out.

The MITD is

Spoiler

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Pun-Pun

[SadisticFishing]

No. Billion reasons.

[Xapi]

Technically, there are absolutely 0 reasons for it not to be.

The whole Pun-Pun concept is that Pun-Pun can give himself any ability in the game, and alter any ability score to any number he wanted to.

Therefore, list all we know about MitD, and make it so that through a Pun-Pun like loop, the MitD gave himself that trait.

There you have it.

[roy_greenhilt]

No. Billion reasons.

Then name one.

[SadisticFishing]

Pun Pun cannot exist by any logical standards.

He does not fit the MitD's.. anything. His naivety, his hunger, his getting tired, his.. etc, etc.

There is not a single thing that points to Pun Pun except: Pun Pun can do everything the MitD can. Funny thing is, Pun Pun CAN DO EVERYTHING.

Note that a wizard or sorcerer who decided to play a trick could also be the answer. In fact, any caster, or it could just be an illusion made by Xykon because he was bored. It might be the Snarl, who's decided to coalesce and be rational, for absolutely no reason other than to confuse us about who it is.

It could be Mystique, Rogue, or Captain Marvel, or Dr. Manhattan.

It could be Alex Mercer, a high level fighter with an item of wish, an Animal for Black & White. Diablo from the Diablo series (Blizzard) can change shape and do everything MitD did. It could be the Dark One's Son, a Demigod of ULTIMATE POWER.

The funny thing about these ideas - they all make MORE sense than Pun Pun (except maybe Alex Mercer and Diablo).

Elan has a higher likelyhood of being Pun Pun than the MitD does, as does that random old guy who got caught by the ogres.

It is NOT Pun Pun.

[73 Bits of Lint]

Sorry if someone else has mentioned this, but it just occurred to me that we've never seen the MitD having any form of hand or claw. It has been showing holding or manipulating several objects, apparently through telekinesis. So that might mean that the MitD is some sort of creature sufficiently powerful that telekinesis is a casual utility, rather than a special power.
Of course, it could also just be a conceit of the artwork in order to insure that no part of the monster is presented to the audience before the story reaches its climax.

[EmperorSarda]

Sorry if someone else has mentioned this, but it just occurred to me that we've never seen the MitD having any form of hand or claw. It has been showing holding or manipulating several objects, apparently through telekinesis. So that might mean that the MitD is some sort of creature sufficiently powerful that telekinesis is a casual utility, rather than a special power.

That is why one of my votes goes to Homestar. The MiTD only has marginally better grammar.

[Xapi]

Pun Pun cannot exist by any logical standards.

No sane DM would allow it, that's for sure.

He does not fit the MitD's.. anything. His naivety, his hunger, his getting tired, his.. etc, etc.

Those are personality traits wich don't have much to do with the Pun Pun concept

There is not a single thing that points to Pun Pun except: Pun Pun can do everything the MitD can. Funny thing is, Pun Pun CAN DO EVERYTHING.

That's my point. Technically, there's no reason why Pun Pun can't be MitD.

Note that a wizard or sorcerer who decided to play a trick could also be the answer. In fact, any caster, or it could just be an illusion made by Xykon because he was bored. It might be the Snarl, who's decided to coalesce and be rational, for absolutely no reason other than to confuse us about who it is.

All of these are technically possible, except for the Snarl, wich is not an actual sentient being AFAIK.

It could be Mystique, Rogue, or Captain Marvel, or Dr. Manhattan.

It could be Alex Mercer, a high level fighter with an item of wish, an Animal for Black & White. Diablo from the Diablo series (Blizzard) can change shape and do everything MitD did. It could be the Dark One's Son, a Demigod of ULTIMATE POWER.

The funny thing about these ideas - they all make MORE sense than Pun Pun (except maybe Alex Mercer and Diablo).

No, none of these make any sense, because they belong to a different type of setting.

Elan has a higher likelyhood of being Pun Pun than the MitD does, as does that random old guy who got caught by the ogres.

Probably, but only because these characters already exist in the OotSverse

It is NOT Pun Pun.

I agree it's most likely not Pun Pun. But there's no way to rule it out because of Pun Pun's conception.

[SadisticFishing]

Pun Pun has a Divine Rank of Nigh Infinity, and all his mental stats are Nigh Infinity, and he can't get tired.

It does not fit.

Pun Pun is, AT BEST, from Faerun, by the by. Impossible in any other D&D setting. He also doesn't have a setting, he's just numbers.

It's not Pun Pun. Period.

[EmperorSarda]

Unless it is a slightly watered down version of pun-pun that mates every 100 years or so? With inexplicable amnesia about knowing what he is, and his abilities, which with the naivete that is developed because of it, he fails his saving throws for any spells Xykon cast on him before, cause he knows Xykon is his friend and thus wouldn't hurt him.

[Kish]

Pun-Pun is an example of grotesque rules abuse. Nothing more, nothing less. The creature in the darkness is clearly a great deal more, and I would venture that his situation also demonstrates that he's less (the type of munchkin who would create Pun-Pun allow himself to be locked in a cage for all this time? Please).

[Random832]

No sane DM would allow it, that's for sure.

Hmm... Certainly any DM's first reaction to "I want to start as a... Kobold Divine Minion" is going to be "okay, what are you up to" even if they've never heard of Pun-Pun.

But surely there's got to be a sneakier way to do it - one that won't raise any alarm bells until "I Wildshape/Polymorph/etc into a Sarrukh.", and that only on DMs who _have_ heard of Pun-Pun.

[SadisticFishing]

And then once you start and your DM says "wait, what?" and you explain what you're doing, within 2-3 rounds, some God should come kill you.

The funny thing is, getting nigh infinite stats takes nigh infinite time. You may have your strength score in the hundreds, but not NEARLY enough to deal with friggin Vecna showing up and going "No."

[Random832]

If you drop a frog into boiling water, it will jump out. You know the rest of this saying...

And the gods wouldn't have any reason to be worried about you until (and unless) you do the Ice Assassin thing. The DM may not even realize it allows you to do it to a god until you do it.

Or just don't do it. Don't you have enough without divine ranks?

[ArcadiaGM]

So, I googled the whole "pun pun" thing, with which I was unfamiliar.

Clever, certainly. Of course, any GM that's worth a darn will just say no.