Erfworld 62 - Page 56

[Earendill]

I'm not sure if someone else posted this already but IMO Parson will not counter the forest units with his dragons. Assuming those are archers for instance its better to run some sort of forest capable heavy infantry into them (especially since they fear no retaliation from the main column next turn). The Twoll/skellies that Jillian craoked were in a forest....There should also be some sort of magical/non magical traps he could place on that precise hex too.

I still do not understand how can Ansom not think past the next turn - supposing he wins it his way (very low probability), he would still find himself wounded and surrounded by the rest of the dwagons which would be a bit dangerous...

[Kcalehc]

If the dwagon circle of hexes is to the side of Ansoms column, instead of using the empty hex to ambush one set of units as alot of people surmised; Parson can use it to lure away units that can attack his dwagons (and some warlords). Then hit the column next turn in the centre from the side - splitting it into three parts, the front, back and the isolated units that had previously attacked him. Then its a simple matter (relatively) to take out each of the now smaller armies one by one, not to mention splitting the column will slow down the attack on Stanleys castle.

I'm not sure on the move differences, but if the dwagons can out move the units sent into the centre of them, they can withdraw from each battle and still make it far enough away on the other side, not to be counter attacked afterwards. (Kind of like a strafing run - or driveby).

Its a thought anyway.

[Monan]

Seeing that Parson now has his metallic imitation t-shirt armor and just got a metalic/electronic mathmancy glove, is anyone else thinking, "he's becom[ing] more machine than man. Twisted and evil." ???

[fehler]

Surrounding a hex with dwagons for defense is good. But I see no reason that surrounding a hex with dragons will make it easier to attack. They fly, they can't retreat, so what would the purpose be? If there were ground units, I could understand surrounding them.

We assume the center hex is empty. We assume Parson wants Ansom to attack the #3 hex. Parson will also have to assume Ansom will scout it before attacking, so I don't think there's an overwhelming force of healthy dwagons there. I also assume that a batscout can see all the units in a hex before croaking, at least that should be what Parson assumes. Also, if Ansom opens the gate and finds nothing there, will he panic? Where will Ansom assume the wounded dwagons are? Will Ansom disperse more bats to scout them out, or will he consolidate back at the column, figuring that he's wasted his forest moves going around the platter and has nothing to attack them anyways, whereever they are.

So, what are Parson's objectives? He wants Ansom to try to chase down the wounded dwagons. That leaves three targets for the start of his group: The remaining seige in the column, the Gumps and Woodsey Elves plus air support that took out stack #3, and Webinar's group, where most of Ansom's flyers are.

I have to guess that this is just a stall tactic, draw the flyers away, and his true goal is the remaining seige in the column.

The consequence of that is it all but forces Ansom to make his main attack through the tunnels. While the Gobwins get good underground bonuses (and are cute, too), it will elminiate the advantage the dwagons give him.

Shouldn't the marbits have started their feint by now? They were going to break off early in the original plan, and I don't recall that had been scuttled yet.

[Monan]

BTW for the folks that say Vinny is not a vampire check out panel 4 of this strip and you see Vinny's coffin behind Ansom. Looks like a vampire resting place to me, therefore I think this fortifies the previous argument that undead are on both sides.

[jindra34]

Seeing that Parson now has his metallic imitation t-shirt armor and just got a metalic/electronic mathmancy glove, is anyone else thinking, "he's becom[ing] more machine than man. Twisted and evil." ???

Ever heard of something called Armor?

[O'Shuva]

I believe Admiral Akhbar summed up this situation best.

"It's a trap!"

http://photo.gangus.com/d/26788-2/ackbar.jpg

<Ackbar>IT'S A TRAP!</Ackbar>

The meme is strong with this one.

[jindra34]

BTW for the folks that say Vinny is not a vampire check out panel 4 of this strip and you see Vinny's coffin behind Ansom. Looks like a vampire resting place to me, therefore I think this fortifies the previous argument that undead are on both sides.

Yes Vinnie is vampiric but that does not mean he is a vampire. And erf vampires already have some differences from fictional ones so why should we assume they are undead? how many times must i repeat this argument before people get it?

[shakes019]

I think Vinny's comment about the amount of move remaining takes into account getting in and out. I don't think that Ansom would be dumb enough to knowingly end his move in the middle of the party platter of doom. Especially when they retain wounds taken until the start of the next Jetstone turn.

[Atheist_Cleric]

So..the next comic is basically a toss up. Will it be Parson who is surprised because he didnt know about the uncroaked's weakness to the Arkenpliers? Or will Ansom be surprised when he charges into that middle hex and finds it empty, as the traps teeth close in?

Personally I think it could go either way. As far as we know, Parson doesnt know what the Arkenpliers can do, and Ansom being killed here seems unlikely, and setting off the trap directly would suggest him getting beaten. On the other hand, Parson mentioned a second half to his plan, so he's prepared something. I'd say the trap will work, but Ansom wont be beaten...maybe Jillian or Vinnie will swoop in and save him while his troops get croaked, or something.

[Phylactery]

"That far hex was weak, tho. stack had only three dragons: a yellow, a purple, and a pink"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0055.html

Vinnie's bat-o-vision is monochrome.

so there

[PePe QuiCoSE]

One thing I just realized though: if Parson's hiding the wounded "A" dwagons somewhere other than the center hex, that means they're still technically exposed and vulnerable. Stanley is probably NOT going to be too happy about that even if Parson tries explaining it. I think Parson might be out of the frying pan and into the fire, at least until the end of turn...

It's possible that Parson put his wounded dragons deeper in the forest, vulnerable yes, but fairly unreachable in terms of moves. I bet his original plan meant to have the defensive ring further into the forest.

"That far hex was weak, tho. stack had only three dragons: a yellow, a purple, and a pink"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0055.html

Vinnie's bat-o-vision is monochrome.

so there

LOL, true... er... he identifies the dwagons for their shape (?) :P

PD: yeah, i know they all look the same

[CNagy]

In my opinion, Parson isn't going to counterattack the counterattack. Here is what I would do, in this situation, in order to completely screw my enemy.

The weak hex has my three slowest moving dwagons. The center hex is empty.

My "A" dwagons are hidden in one of the hexes that Ansom's heavy hitter's can't reach (That'll eat up about all of our move, boss). If Ansom somehow scouted the weakened stack by moving beyond the platter, he still wouldn't be able to reach it with more than a couple units (himself, maybe Jillian, maybe Archons.)

If Ansom chooses to send a scout in after croaking the weak hex of dwagons, then he will not take the bait, he'll reinforce the column as much as he can, and on my turn the Dwagon flight would hit targets of opportunity not guarded by the opposing fliers on the way back to Gobwin Knob.

But if Ansom does choose to commit to the center hex of the party platter, that is where things get glorious. I would ignore the center Hex completely. The B Dwagons and the A Dwagons plus warlords would converge on 1 hex and depending on game mechanics would be sorted into 1 or 3 stacks (we have no known maximum number of units per stack, we only know that the stack bonus maxes at 8). Let me explain.

==If units commanded by warlords and real-time thinkamancy can rearrange stacks (changing and combining when ordered to) then there would be 3 stacks, in order to get the most out of the Warlord bonus and the stack bonuses.
==If such orders (changing and combining stacks) have any sort of delay (between attacking order, or what have you) then they would be one single, enormous stack, for safety purposes.

Thus set up, my Dwagon flight (with my Warlords on the 3 fastest Dwagons) would ride down the column towards Gobwin Knob, destroying siege and other targets along the way. When dwagons are getting too close to croaked for comfort, stacks are rearranged depending on the above mechanics:

==If we have 3 stacks, then we rearrange into 3 new stacks, with two healthy and one near-croaked. Near croaked stack exits the column stage left and plots a course back to Gobwin Knob free of any interference. Warlord leaves that stack and returns to Dwagon Flight, where the 2 healthy Stacks are seperated into 3 healthy stacks. Repeat all the way down the line.
==If we have 1 stack, then the entire Dwagon Flight exits the column, the wounded Dwagons are ordered home along a safe route, and the Flight moves back into the column. Repeat all the way down the line.

At the end of the turn, the Dwagons are safely back at Gobwin Knob. Ansom and his fliers are out of position. The siege is completely wrecked. Stanley has an overlordgasm.

Well, that's what I'd do, anyway.

Edit: Forgot to mention that, obviously, movement would be charted out ahead of time to make sure that there isn't some sort of "Point of No Return" if the column isn't bee-lining for Gobwin Knob. The main objective would be to ride down the column as long as possible while still retaining enough move to make it back to GK.

[Bobbryan]

I've read through what some people were thinking... but I didn't necessarily agree.

If the center hex was merely being used to lure Ansom's units into the middle, Parson would have to sacrifice 3 dwagons. Now... this is obviously an acceptable loss, but really... it doesn't seem like Parson's strategy. Why lose 3 dwagons when you could lose zero?

My first impulse when I read this comic was this:

The center hex IS empty, because all 30ish unaccounted dwagons are all in the hex that appears as if it has 3 dwagons. Assuming that Vinny's bats would only account dwagons that actually launched an attack (and the warlords could direct battles if they were present) then it would appear as the weakest link, when in reality, it has the whole crew of healthy dwagons waiting in ambush.

Of course this would rely on just how scouting works in Erfworld. If Vinny gets full data... and whether you can hide units from bats. But if the warlords directed 3 dwagons to attack the bat, it would appear to Vinny as simply 3 dwagons attacking the bat because they had no choice.

Just my thought. A bit different than others.

[throx]

If Parson is outnumbered 25 to 1 then he's not even going to willingly sacrifice 3 dwagons. Part of asymmetric warfare is hit and retreat. I suspect (and am not sure on this) that there may be some way to retreat those 3 dwagons out of the way when the attack force comes in, leaving them bottled up in what is obviously an empty hex. If I was Parson against those odds then I'd be doing everything I could to ensure my strongest asset (the dwagons) never took a loss when retreat was an option.

I don't think that Ansom will be riding in himself either. The only indication of this is his brandishing of the pliers at in the final frame, but that could just be for effect. Note he only mentioned Jillian and the Archons going in to finish the stack, not himself.

[CNagy]

The center hex IS empty, because all 30ish unaccounted dwagons are all in the hex that appears as if it has 3 dwagons. Assuming that Vinny's bats would only account dwagons that actually launched an attack (and the warlords could direct battles if they were present) then it would appear as the weakest link, when in reality, it has the whole crew of healthy dwagons waiting in ambush.

Of course this would rely on just how scouting works in Erfworld. If Vinny gets full data... and whether you can hide units from bats. But if the warlords directed 3 dwagons to attack the bat, it would appear to Vinny as simply 3 dwagons attacking the bat because they had no choice.

Flying Stacks with a Commander may selectively engage non-fliers on their own turn. It's not Stanley's turn, and the bat is a flier, so by everything that we've been shown and can infer from, everything capable of attacking does attack when an enemy moves into its space.

[Moral Wiz]

Bobyrain, my theory is similar, but slightly diferent. The three warlords are on the dragons in the rear hex (after all, too much of a coincidence that there are the same no. of dragons there as warlords.) Erfworlders are used to 7 man formations (or was it 8 man) and won't expect a trick like this, as it is less than that.

These warlords are not that good, but they don't have to be. All they have to be able to do is raise the uninjured dragons to a point where they can beat back the wodsies. If they are anything like normal TBS games heroes, this is quite possible.

[CNagy]

If Parson is outnumbered 25 to 1 then he's not even going to willingly sacrifice 3 dwagons. Part of asymmetric warfare is hit and retreat. I suspect (and am not sure on this) that there may be some way to retreat those 3 dwagons out of the way when the attack force comes in, leaving them bottled up in what is obviously an empty hex. If I was Parson against those odds then I'd be doing everything I could to ensure my strongest asset (the dwagons) never took a loss when retreat was an option.

I don't think that Ansom will be riding in himself either. The only indication of this is his brandishing of the pliers at in the final frame, but that could just be for effect. Note he only mentioned Jillian and the Archons going in to finish the stack, not himself.

Just like in the business world, you have to spend (or expend in this case) to make. 3 Dwagons is a small price to pay for crippling the siege, which will give Gobwin Knob many more turns to produce units while Ansom attempts to come in through the tunnels.

These warlords are not that good, but they don't have to be. All they have to be able to do is raise the uninjured dragons to a point where they can beat back the wodsies. If they are anything like normal TBS games heroes, this is quite possible.

Except that the Warlords are also Ansom's objective. Even if the Woodsy Elves failed, he and his heavy hitting fliers would punch through that hex. Having the warlords away from the wounded Dwagons makes them that much weaker, because of the lost warlord bonuses.

[TheTurnipKing]

Something about this plan is bugging me.

No matter how you slice is, Ansom is sacrificing whatever units he sends into that party platter, since next turn there are a hell of a lot of angry fully healed dwagons waiting to tear them to shreds.

[jindra34]

Something about this plan is bugging me.

No matter how you slice is, Ansom is sacrificing whatever units he sends into that party platter, since next turn there are a hell of a lot of angry fully healed dwagons waiting to tear them to shreds.

Yep thats definitely the truth... death now or death later? maybe Ansom thinks he has a solution...

[Ubiq]

Ubiq: Your plan is well-thought-out, but unless I've badly misunderstood you, you're forgetting that Stanley CAN NOT swap units among hexes when it's not his turn, warlords or no.

He doesn't have to; Warlords can choose whether or not to engage an enemy. If an enemy stack is moving into their hex, then their only choice besides fighting is to withdraw their units and concede the territory. Now, they could withdraw into the center hex as bait, but they could just as easily move into an adjacent hex as well to reinforce those units.

That doesn't require that they be able to move on Ansom's turn as it's using another game mechanic instead.

I've never seen a war game where you can use up your move to get next to a unit and still attack it. (Admittedly, I haven't seen all, or even most, war games. But I've seen a few, mainly Sid Meier-type stuff.)

Well, they have to have at least one move left to be able to attack, but almost all of the B dwagons will still have most of their Move left. On the other hand, it's up to how the autoattack system works.

If it's activated by having adjacent units (which might well be possible for ranged units like archers and dwagons), then they can attack the minute that Ansom's troops enter the middle hex, which should require all or most of their move. Otherwise, it'll happen during the Tool's next turn when Parson tells the ring to collapse into the base.

[SauroGrenom]

I wonder what Ansom means when he says "top gwiffons". This suggests that there are a few gwiffons that are different from the rest.

Perhaps units can level in addition to leaders. In the case of gwiffons, it seams that higher level units could have a higher move.

[TheTurnipKing]

Warlords can choose whether or not to engage an enemy.

Only on THEIR turn, not Ansoms. On Ansoms turn, the only advantage a Warlord seems to offer is their leadership bonus.

otherwise Stanley would just walk through Ansoms army refusing to fight anyone on the way.

[SteveMB]

"That far hex was weak, tho. stack had only three dragons: a yellow, a purple, and a pink"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0055.html

Vinnie's bat-o-vision is monochrome.

The red dwagons ridden by Leeroy and Manpower were a distinctly darker shade of gray than the other (probably the pink ridden by Phat-Singh). With enough experience, Vinny might be able to tell the dwagons apart even in grayscale.

[teratorn]

Something about this plan is bugging me.

No matter how you slice is, Ansom is sacrificing whatever units he sends into that party platter, since next turn there are a hell of a lot of angry fully healed dwagons waiting to tear them to shreds.

Well, if they finish the center dwagons, it'll be worth it. Forest units won't be of much help when they reach the city. Hey, it's just units.

Beside, these guys have their chance to do something in the battle. They are too weak to risk facing six healthy dwagons. Taking ~20 dwagons and three warlords with them would be taking the most out of them.

[SauroGrenom]

He doesn't have to; Warlords can choose whether or not to engage an enemy. If an enemy stack is moving into their hex, then their only choice besides fighting is to withdraw their units and concede the territory. Now, they could withdraw into the center hex as bait, but they could just as easily move into an adjacent hex as well to reinforce those units.

I've thought of this as well. It would be a powerful strategy, but I doubt it's possible to withdraw from a battle if you are the defender.

Since the unit's move goes to zero at the end of a turn, it's unlikely that it would be able to move again when attacked.

If withdraw was a viable defensive strategy, then Jillian probably wouldn't have been captured. She must have known that her orlies wouldn't stand up to the dwagons. She fights with bravery, but I don't think she's stupid enough or honor bound enough to fight a loosing battle against a vastly superior foe with no chance of victory.

[TheTurnipKing]

Yep thats definitely the truth... death now or death later? maybe Ansom thinks he has a solution...

It doesn't seem like much of a plan. The only thing I can think of is that they want to hit the wounded Dwagons (because it'll be less expensive than hitting them once they've healed) and the Warlords (because of their selective capabilities). If it's certain death, surely he's not going himself, which makes the Arkenpliers/undead thing irrelevant.

In all honesty, hunkering down and getting as many fliers back to defend the column as possible, then pincushioning the dwagons to death seems to make the most sense.

[Leewei]

Spoiler

Show

Parson is going to fight for as little attrition for his side as possible. He cannot afford to lose dwagons in a direct fight.

Instead, he is forcing his opponent to use precious movement to go around the fortress formation to the weaker back door. Ansom's flyers and forest units will all be pulled back from the main force into the donut hole and away from the seige weaponry. Parson is all about keeping Ansom's seige exposed so that he can finish it off.

The center hex is either empty, or else has a token force in it so that Ansom will think he achieved his objective.

[jindra34]

It doesn't seem like much of a plan. The only thing I can think of is that they want to hit the wounded Dwagons (because it'll be less expensive than hitting them once they've healed) and the Warlords (because of their selective capabilities). If it's certain death, surely he's not going himself, which makes the Arkenpliers/undead thing irrelevant.

In all honesty, hunkering down and getting as many fliers back to defend the column as possible, then pincushioning the dwagons to death seems to make the most sense.

You want about 50 dwagons bearing down on one spot at the same time... i'm not sure they could adequatley guard the entire column against that...

[TheTurnipKing]

You want about 50 dwagons bearing down on one spot at the same time... i'm not sure they could adequatley guard the entire column against that...

If they couldn't, why haven't Stanley or his previous warlords taken advantage of their damn nigh invincible dwagon army?

You don't need to be Parson to put 50 dwagons on one hex.

The reason they're selectively raiding in the first place seems to be that the whole column is too strong to overcome with Dwagons alone.