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Thread: Belkar's Alignment
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2005-12-01, 07:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Belkar's Alignment
After a comment I made on another thread about Belkar being CN...
Originally Posted by DeleranOriginally Posted by The Giant
(PS: This should be nested quotes, but I don't know how to do that)The abilities of the Force: Control, Alter, Delete.
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2005-12-01, 08:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Belkar's Alignment
I am sorry to brake it to you, but harvesting kidneys for fun and killing teammates for personal gain in't neutral in any meaning of the word.
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2005-12-01, 08:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2005
Does anyone ever read these?
Yes, but Chaotic Neutral isn't Neutral. I can see where those CN people are coming from, but I personally think I have to go with The Giant. And besides, why would he have to hold up the sheet if he wasn't evil?
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2005-12-01, 08:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Belkar's Alignment
Then you don't understand the alignment rules at all. A person who commits Evil act after Evil act and no Good acts at all is Evil. Not "Neutral with Evil tendencies," there is no such thing as "tendencies" in the alignment rules. In order to be Neutral you need to either a.) commit no Good or Evil acts at all, or b.) commit a more-or-less equal number of Good and Evil acts. Not c.) commit a boatload of Evil acts without guilt or regret and no Good acts except those he is bullied into.
A partial list of Evil acts Belkar has performed or attempted to perform:
• Harvesting someone's kidneys who was no threat and had a Good alignment.
• Selling an attractive young woman into slavery
• Slitting the throats of helpless people
• Trying to kill an ally strictly to level up
• Killing three barbarians when he only needed to defeat (not kill) one of them
• Professing a desire to go back and kill his family and childhood friends in their sleep
• Throwing daggers at Roy just for fun
Plus countless acts of psychological abuse to his teammates for no reason other than his own amusement. And that doesn't count the 3 or 4 Evil acts from "On the Origin of PCs" that I don't want to list here.
Why on earth do people waste their time with this? I feel now like I could have Belkar turn to the camera and say, "Hey folks, FYI, I'm Chaotic Evil," and then kill and eat a fluffy puppy, and you'd still come here and say, "Well, I think he's Neutral Good."
Get over it, Belkar is Evil.
Rich Burlew
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2005-12-01, 08:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2005
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- Wantage, Beeyootiful Want
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Re: Belkar's Alignment
Until I read Origins, I always just put it down to compensating for being a teeny little harmless woodland type creature. I mean he talked a "good" game, but never seemed to follow through on these things.
Well except the barbarian killing, but I chalked that up to thats what barbarians do. And he did tell Elan he only needed to "defeat" him for XP purposes.
As for the puppy, it depends what kind of puppy, if its a poodle it wouldn't change anything ;DWoo, I say woo
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2005-12-01, 09:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2005
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- Saint Macgyver's Basilica
Re: Belkar's Alignment
Originally Posted by The Giant
Do it. Give in to your hatred. Make it a dalmatian.
But anyway, the big evidence for me was the blight immunity thing back in the way early strips.An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
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2005-12-01, 10:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2004
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- The 100 hurricane swamp
Re: Belkar's Alignment
I was willing to give Belkar the benefit of the doubt with the whole Unholy Blight thing. It could have been a good roll on his save. However consistent acts since then definitely tipped him into the unrepentent Evil category.
Even had Rich not come out and declared Belkar Evil, I'd believe it.EvilEeyore AntiSocialite
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2005-12-01, 11:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Belkar's Alignment
He took extra damage from Smite Evil.
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2005-12-01, 11:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2005
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- McKinney, Texas
Re: Belkar's Alignment
remember that being Chaotic Evil doesn't mean that you have "no friend" Evil people usually have others around because of some alternative reasons..... like
1. need protection.
2. companionship (they do get bored being alone)
3. comedic value hehehe...
Chibi rules.
Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional.
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2005-12-01, 11:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2005
Re: Belkar's Alignment
...commit a boatload of Evil acts without guilt or regret and no Good acts except those he is bullied into.
What a dilemma. I'm afraid you'll reveal V's gender next.
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2005-12-01, 12:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Bolingbrook, IL USA
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Re: Belkar's Alignment
Originally Posted by The Giant
Originally Posted by The Giant
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2005-12-01, 12:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Belkar's Alignment
Evil puppies are not cute and fluffy. They're like dragons, appearance reveals their true nature ;-)
I have been firmly in the Belkar is CE camp since I started reading this comic last year, but he's an adorable CE
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2005-12-01, 12:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2004
Re: Belkar's Alignment[url=http://www.giantitp.com
Yeah, Belkar is pretty clearly Evil. Personally, I thought so when I read the Unholy Blight Comic (which, to me it seemed the thrust of the humor of that particular issue). And Belkar's passion for disemboweling, kidney harvesting, murder, mayhem, toying with Paladins, harvesting XP from teammates, and sexually harrassing his leader only serves as corroborating evidence. Now, Belkar does hang out with what appear to be three Good characters and two non-Evil ones for various reasons. Elan makes him laugh (#38, #102, #153), V is too powerful to cheese off (#20, #127), and, of course, he just likes the chance for attention (#42)
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2005-12-01, 01:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Belkar's Alignment
For Belkar's reference:
Fluffy puppies are tasty and taste best after having marinated in garlic, basil, olive oil and cider vinegar for about 3 hours.
Deepfrying is even better.
Avoid poodles. They're high in LDL cholestorol.
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2005-12-01, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Belkar's Alignment
Originally Posted by Shiremaid
That's the whole point of Belkar for me; alignment in D&D too often replaces roleplaying. Belkar is proof that an CE character can be more than a cardboard cut-out with "villain" written on it. A CE character can be witty, smart, even admirable. Maybe even someone you'd want in your party, if you can keep him properly motivated.
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2005-12-01, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Belkar's Alignment
I think it has a lot to do with maturity. 95% of players will read under the evil description : no regard for the sanctity of life (or whatever the wording is in their particular edition of D&D) and decide that means that they want to kill everything that moves.
While a sociopath is probably a good example of a CE character, it's not the only kind of person who 'can' be a chaotic evil. Anyone who is out for themselves and doesn't mind doing whatever it takes to make sure they come out on top is evil (and no, evil is not subjective in D&D, it is a rigidly defined concept nessercery to game mechanics, not a philosophical commentary) but that doesn't mean you can't be party-centric.
A party grants you:
Willing allies, who will fight, probably to the death, to defend you
A means by which to take on odds that would otherwise be impossible
A deterent for people who might want to do you harm
People to spend time with
A broad set of resources that were you not a party member, you would have to put considerable effort and likely money into obtaining
People who will invariably be able to back you up when some self-righteous paladin *cough*Miko*cough* decides that because you're evil, you're offensive to existance and must die, whether or not you've actualy done anything to hurt anyone or not.
Belkar's evil, he just sees the benefits of being in a party and since good allies are hard to find, is much happier killing their enemies, than people who could be dubiously called friends, and for whom he still has a good use
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2005-12-01, 03:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Belkar's Alignment
I wouldn't agree even that a sociopath is necessarily evil. He certainly isn't necessarily chaotic.
I think a Lawful Evil or Lawful Neutral sociopath would be a really interesting character.
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2005-12-01, 03:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Belkar's Alignment
Originally Posted by The Giant
;DAldas
Great occasions do not make heroes or cowards; they simply unveil them to the eyes of men. Silently and imperceptibly, as we wake or sleep, we grow strong or weak; and at last some crisis shows what we have become. -Brooke Foss Westcott
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2005-12-01, 03:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Belkar's Alignment
Originally Posted by Draedan
Though if it was, that'd be cool...
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2005-12-01, 03:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Belkar's Alignment
Originally Posted by Sylvius
Being a socially-adjusted 'sociopath' I can agree to to the Lawful connotation and the Evil. Although in myself I fear the long arm of the law far too much to ever commit to any crimes.
However unless they follow a complex code or have a very strict set of behaviors, I'd make a sociopathic 'non-tyrant' villian Nuetral Evil and just play up the OCD and code adherence. Otherwise you will overly confuse your players.EvilEeyore AntiSocialite
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2005-12-01, 05:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Belkar's Alignment
Well technicaly speaking, psychopaths kill according to a specific code (i.e. lawful) whereas sociopaths kill on a much less select basis (i.e. chaotic)
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2005-12-01, 06:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Belkar's Alignment
Originally Posted by The Giant
Thog would come in to save the puppy from being slaughtered. I can see it now:
Code:belkar not kill puppy! thog like puppies - belkar is bad for try to kill puppy.
Belkar is so evil that even Thog can tell.
The question is, would saving the puppy from Belkar make Thog of good alignment? ::) :o ;DCheck out past werewolf games at the Unofficial GiantITP werewolf archive
Also wasting too much time playing Evony right now.
I don't wanna be a llama or a duck or a wabbit.
I wanna be a POODLE!
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2005-12-01, 06:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Belkar's Alignment
I think Thog is too dumb to really have an alignment. He's more like Neutral Henchman. He'll follow Nale's instructions because he doesn't know any better.
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2005-12-01, 07:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2004
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- The 100 hurricane swamp
Re: Belkar's Alignment
Originally Posted by Playelf
Anyway a psychopath is someone that feels no empathy for other humans, or at least very little empathy. Often they have disassociative disorders that lead them to withdraw from society.
A sociopath is just a pyschopath that has committed a crime.EvilEeyore AntiSocialite
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2005-12-01, 08:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Belkar's Alignment
Originally Posted by evnafetsOrth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2005-12-01, 09:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Belkar's Alignment
Originally Posted by Playelf
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2005-12-01, 09:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Belkar's Alignment
Originally Posted by evileeyore
Its good to see the Belkars alinment question writin in a way that people can't find some stupid loop hole just so they don't have to be wrong.
I also have never seen why people would think that "have no regard for life" means the same as someone who kills everyone he meets.
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2005-12-01, 10:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2005
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Re: Belkar's Alignment
Originally Posted by The Giant
Selling a woman into slavery is evil? it depends... Chaotic, sure. But if the woman herself is evil...
Slitting throats, eh? My theory is that Belkar's culture allows that and he can't understand not every culture is the same (there's one thing that Belkar says on Origin of PCs that might show there's a culture clash). Belkar has low WIS.
Kill an ally to level up? Munchkinism, not evilness. Belkar saw how all the other party members levelled up and tried to break the system, to find a loophole. First he killed a rat. This didn't work and tried to defeat a PC. When dissuaded, he proceeded to abuse the Roleplaying Bonus. Vaarsuvius told she was expecting to kill Belkar for scribing scrolls and noone said she was evil.
We should also learn not to believe everything Belkar says. He likes to play jokes, either verbal or practical. There have been several examples of this twisted humor sense.
Some more notes:
Unholy Blight can be because of a lousy damage roll.
Owl's Wisdom doesn't change alignment, and Belkar's thoughts when under that spell's effects clearly show a non-evil character.
Killing surrendering goblins is not evil (although definitely chaotic), if we take into account those goblins were working for Xykon.
There's a bonus story in Dungeon Crawlin Fools that also shows Belkar is not inherently evil.
OK, why do I waste time on this? someone already said so, because it's fun. And we the readers read this comic for fun :) Again, your quotes of Belkar being evil are the only things that can't be disproved.
Lead sheet COULD be true. Or, a legit defense to alignment detection spells. Casting alignment detection spells on someone is very rude.
Or, maybe, just maybe, Belkar thinks he's evil (I don't know if that's even possible...) again, low wisdom would cause Belkar to see only one definition of "defeat". (see Haley's and Belkar's exchange over the death of Trigak).
I'm just saying it's not explicitly shown in the comics.
btw, I'd appreciate you be a little more careful... I wasn't offended, but you did say my theory of Belkar being CN implies I don't understand the rules... thanks :)The abilities of the Force: Control, Alter, Delete.
Zombie Apocalypse if and only if Cake.
My Little Dashie made me cry.
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
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2005-12-01, 10:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Belkar's Alignment
Originally Posted by referee
Slavery is infact evil. It is not at all chaotic if the Law allows it(which it probably did somewhere) and pretty much any everything he did was evil from start of comic to now. Even the good things he did were not really good per-say. Taking rescueing Elan as an example. He clearly stated why he was doing it. Elan is funny and gives Belkar enjoyment he did for selfish gain(killing bandits and getting more enjoyment out of Elan and maybe some Xp) and had shown already that he didn't care if Elan died(trying to kill him himself)
And to add to all of that he tried to hide his alinment from someone who would evisorate him should she find out his alinment.
I'm sorry if this comes off as rude but really that theory made no sense what so ever. :P
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2005-12-01, 11:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Belkar's Alignment
Originally Posted by Nightmarenny
Do you have friends that make you laugh? Shame on you for being so selfish!
Originally Posted by Nightmarenny
And for the record, yes, Belkar is evil. I just like playing devils advocate ;DAldas
Great occasions do not make heroes or cowards; they simply unveil them to the eyes of men. Silently and imperceptibly, as we wake or sleep, we grow strong or weak; and at last some crisis shows what we have become. -Brooke Foss Westcott