OOTS #858 - The Discussion Thread

[MeanMrsMustard]

I'm actually with forikroder on this one. Haven't you ever accidentally slashed someone with a pencil? (If, say, you were holding a pencil tip out in a crowded hallway and someone shoved past you, for example.) Sure, they're intended for piercing damage -- er, I mean "writing" -- but they can still slash.

[Concept]

What avengers reference? I don't remember Emma Peal catching an arrow.

[Bulldog Psion]

Well, Snatch Arrows has been part of D&D for a lot longer than the Avengers movie has been out --

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#snatchArrows

-- so personally, I'm disinclined to see it as a reference, unless you want to say it's also a Kung Fu Panda, World of Warcraft, and KotoR reference because the characters in all four places happen to all have bilateral symmetry.

[Polixenes]

What avengers reference? I don't remember Emma Peal catching an arrow.

There was that episode where Steed took an arrow to the Macnee.

[rgrekejin]

I'm actually with forikroder on this one. Haven't you ever accidentally slashed someone with a pencil? (If, say, you were holding a pencil tip out in a crowded hallway and someone shoved past you, for example.) Sure, they're intended for piercing damage -- er, I mean "writing" -- but they can still slash.

Sure I have. In fact, I've actually slashed my finger open with an arrow before. Which is why I'm so disinclined to accept the reasoning that they can be used as an improvised slashing weapon. With regard to their potential as a slashing weapon, an arrow can't do nearly as much damage as it can being used as a projectile, or simply being used to stab something. A dagger, by contrast, can do damage as a stabbing weapon or by slashing along it's length. Saying an arrow can be used as a slashing weapon because it has a sharp portion that you're capable of cutting yourself on makes about as much sense as arguing that a morningstar can be used as a slashing weapon, because those points an it are sharp and you can cut yourself on them. It's true, but during the actual course of using the weapon, the damage output from trying to use it in that fashion would be so much smaller than using it in the right way that it wouldn't be worthwhile. The listed damage dice are only applied when you're using the weapon in the intended fashion.

Which brings me back to the actual rules. An arrow, being used as an improvised weapon, deals as much damage as a dagger. A dagger can effectively deal damage stabbing or slashing. An arrow can effectively deal damage by stabbing, but is much less effective at dealing damage while slashing. If the arrow did less damage than the dagger, than I might concede the point here, but it doesn't. If you wanted to argue that an arrow could be used to deal 1d4 damage as an improvised piercing weapon, but also could be used as an improvised slashing weapon to deal a single point of damage on a successful hit, then that I'd buy. But using an arrow as a slashing weapon for the same effect as a stabbing weapon? Nuh-uh.

[Forikroder]

Sure I have. In fact, I've actually slashed my finger open with an arrow before. Which is why I'm so disinclined to accept the reasoning that they can be used as an improvised slashing weapon. With regard to their potential as a slashing weapon, an arrow can't do nearly as much damage as it can being used as a projectile, or simply being used to stab something. A dagger, by contrast, can do damage as a stabbing weapon or by slashing along it's length. Saying an arrow can be used as a slashing weapon because it has a sharp portion that you're capable of cutting yourself on makes about as much sense as arguing that a morningstar can be used as a slashing weapon, because those points an it are sharp and you can cut yourself on them. It's true, but during the actual course of using the weapon, the damage output from trying to use it in that fashion would be so much smaller than using it in the right way that it wouldn't be worthwhile. The listed damage dice are only applied when you're using the weapon in the intended fashion.

Which brings me back to the actual rules. An arrow, being used as an improvised weapon, deals as much damage as a dagger. A dagger can effectively deal damage stabbing or slashing. An arrow can effectively deal damage by stabbing, but is much less effective at dealing damage while slashing. If the arrow did less damage than the dagger, than I might concede the point here, but it doesn't. If you wanted to argue that an arrow could be used to deal 1d4 damage as an improvised piercing weapon, but also could be used as an improvised slashing weapon to deal a single point of damage on a successful hit, then that I'd buy. But using an arrow as a slashing weapon for the same effect as a stabbing weapon? Nuh-uh.

the DnD rules arent made to be completely realistically and make perfect sense with everything...

[Kalrany]

Just read through the backlog. We sure got to 10 pages really quick!

THE ARROW:

Maybe Tarquin is Sicilian?

Anyway, first thing I thought of when I saw that last panel was "Peruvian Instand Darkness Powder".

YES! Thank you!

...I see there's a grey cylinder attached to the shaft of the arrow, which vanishes when the smoke appears. So it looks more alchemical than magical to me.

Edit: you can see pieces of the cylinder flying off in the last frame. It's definitely a chemical object and not a spell, IMO.

How about a magical container with the trap (I'm going to call it the Peruvian Instand Darkness Powder, becuase it makes me smile) inside. Perhaps the container is touch activated, and Haley was just very careful.

Why do I now get the feeling that Tarquin broke the thing intentionally to make Nale shut up?

Maybe, like me, you were self-projecting. I would have been tempted myself...

What avengers reference? I don't remember Emma Peal catching an arrow.

You made me laugh.
Hard.
While drinking coffee.
Hot coffee.
...
Bad human.


CLASS NOTES:

I was thinking the same thing. Or maybe a similar bad guy show off class to counter Dashing Swordsman. Just because the main characters keep to the base classes (mostly) doesn't mean side characters can't have a confusing mix of classes and features. After all, he is related to Nale, of the Fighter, Illusionist, Rogue multiclassing.

I think that may be very likely... Maybe something like...

...In a world that has the Dashing Swordsman prestige class it is absolutley possible that Tarquin has a different presitge class (call it the Evil Overlord PrC, maybe?) that gives him Drama related benefits.

Something like:

Drama Sense: On a successful Difficulty Check (whatever) you can anticipate when something important to the campaign is likely to happen to you...

I like the Evil Overlord option. So do you think he read the list?

I've posted before, though it's be quite a while back, the idea of an evil counterpart to the Dashing Swordsman PRC, called the Magnificent Bastard. Similar abilities, but with tweaks to fit the alignment and role better. I believe that there should be an advantage for a Monolog for instance, but with an ever-increasing risk of it backlashing on you the longer you use it. Needs something that uses the word "gambit" as well, it's a requirement.

I think I might like this a hair more than Evil Overlord, though both are quite fitting...

THE AMBUSH:

Yes! The Order is showing teeth.

I'm gonna go with brains, but teeth is good. In either case, they are using their heads!

...Upon arriving at this section of the labyrinth, Roy looked around and said "I think this looks like a pretty good spot (for an ambush)."

(The ending of that sentence was pretty clearly implied, I believe)

If Roy picked out a spot as being good for an ambush, I can't imagine why Tarquin would not also notice that it is a good spot for an ambush. He didn't really have time to figure out why he had a gut feeling, but the area clearly has some characteristics that suggest "ambush."...

That was my reading as well. T jumps to the head of the pack prepared to deal with an ambush. I have always gotten the impression that he respected Roy enough to expect more forthought. After all, he would have looked at the inital engagment and decided a change in tactics, so it would stand to reason that the Order would do the same. I get the impression that the arrow grab was more instinctual than anything else, -- I thought that he was readying himself for possibly more of a direct attack, which is why his ax was being brought to bear in panel 7 and, to a degree, 9 as well.

ONLY THE SHADOW KNOWS:

Wow, some actual shadows. Wonder if that shadow dancer and his friend will finally show up.

Don't they specialize in taking out rulers of nations?

FINAL SCORE:
Good comic. Looking forward to seeing the LG bumble in the dark. Does the OotS have a way to negate the Peruvian Instand Darkness Powder to engage in melee, or will they have to wait it out? Was that D's spell? When will V reappear? What is the next step for the LG? Does the OotS have more to this plan?

[Subzero008]

Interesting...

It seems the OotS realize they cannot fight Tarquin directly, which is why they used smoke over explosives.

But Tarquin seems completely unsurprised, and his sheer competence is terrifying.

[Smolder]

I was thinking the same thing. Or maybe a similar bad guy show off class to counter Dashing Swordsman. Just because the main characters keep to the base classes (mostly) doesn't mean side characters can't have a confusing mix of classes and features. After all, he is related to Nale, of the Fighter, Illusionist, Rogue multiclassing.

I always thought the joke there was that a fighter/illusionist/rogue is basically the long way of going about becoming a bard, without the actual bard songs. Nale came up with the most elaborate character build possible, and still ended up his brother's equal in combat. Whereas Elan had the flexibility to take a prestige class after a few levels of bard.

[dtilque]

Also, Sabine has two tails in panel 8 (sorry if somebody mentioned it before).

Just once (post #80) which is quite low for this forum. Usually such minor art errors get a dozen or more mentions. BTW, it's actually panel 7, since there were only two panels in the first row.

[SoC175]

In regards to Tarquin's past with Sabine, perhaps she was originally sent as a "booby trap" for him, much as she currently is for Nale. I'm sure the IFCC could have used his vast resources to accomplish fairly large-scale goals. But then she was reassigned to Nale when they saw that his exploitable ego, inexperience, overconfidence, and greater capacity for Evil made him a better pawn?

Maybe she was even Tarquin's fifth wife, for added Haley:Sabine parallels. Though Nale schtupping one of his stepmothers might be a bit much for this comic.

Well, she's immortal and doesn't age. Maybe it was before Nale's time

[rewinn]

the DnD rules arent made to be completely realistically and make perfect sense with everything...

Well, yeah. Just about anything you can pierce with you can slash with and you can also crush with, e.g. if you whack someone over the head with an arrow and you get crushing damage ... just not very much. In game terms, it's pretty unusual to classify an arrow as a slashing weapon or a crushing weapon; it's primarily a piercing weapon.

All these categories are somewhat arbitrary because it's too complicated to take things down to the molecular level and analyze which bonds are being broken by the intrusion of a foreign object.

[Ron Miel]

Excellent. If you can't beat them with force, use guile!

You mean if you can't beat them with Ken...?

Brilliant.

Am I missing a joke here? Beat them with Ken ... what does that mean?

[Bulldog Psion]

Well, yeah. Just about anything you can pierce with you can slash with and you can also crush with, e.g. if you whack someone over the head with an arrow and you get crushing damage ... just not very much. In game terms, it's pretty unusual to classify an arrow as a slashing weapon or a crushing weapon; it's primarily a piercing weapon.

All these categories are somewhat arbitrary because it's too complicated to take things down to the molecular level and analyze which bonds are being broken by the intrusion of a foreign object.

You can slash a little better if you hold it right behind the head and use it like a very short shiv. However, the damage would be pretty pathetic, and it would have practically nil effect against anyone in even light armor. The crushing damage from whacking someone with it would be maybe 1/4 point of damage, if that... So yes, it's basically a piercing weapon, and is fairly poor at that unless launched or used on a helpless, unarmored target.

[Mordae]

Am I missing a joke here? Beat them with Ken ... what does that mean?

You must study your Street Fighter, young one...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_Fighter

Wikipedia knows all.

[Bulldog Psion]

You must study your Street Fighter, young one...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_Fighter

Wikipedia knows all.

Unfortunately, I at least still don't get it.

[Sky_Schemer]

But Tarquin just sensing the trap? No. Simply no. It makes no sense with everything we have seen from him so far. It does not resemble any known skill in DnD I can think of. The arrow snatch is one thing. It has been seen before and makes logical sense. Just knowing that you are going to be ambushed with no more explanation then "I know ok" is rubbish to me. There are so many more ways the idea could have been done too. From passing spot checks, piecing together clues or even some sort of "I remember a time when" moment. They would be fine. Perhaps a bit cheesy regarding T, but fine. Instead we get Tarquin magically knowing when he is going to be ambushed. This is a A**pull make no mistake. I do not like it one bit, and it really hurts the comic for me.

Must everything that happens in the comic be tied to a specific rule, skill, or die roll?

When you play D&D, do you roll dice every time your character has an idea? Does your GM challenge you to make skill checks and die rolls just because you, the player, thought of something? Unless your plan is grossly outside the parameters of your character, I would hope not.

Is it necessary to have lengthy exposition to justify intuition in a character like Tarquin, who is an extremely high level fighter and has obviously been around the block several times? Especially an idea that a lower level character-- specifically Roy-- also had in the same location?

Dislike Tarquin all you want, but it's reasonable for Rich to allow his characters to think, logic, and reason without having to continually pin those actions to a class feature.

[Gift Jeraff]

Well, she's immortal and doesn't age. Maybe it was before Nale's time

Yeah, if it was before his time or after he hit puberty then it would be significantly less creepy.

[Jay R]

I like the Evil Overlord option. So do you think he read the list?

Tarquin? He probably wrote it.

[Omergideon]

Must everything that happens in the comic be tied to a specific rule, skill, or die roll?

When you play D&D, do you roll dice every time your character has an idea? Does your GM challenge you to make skill checks and die rolls just because you, the player, thought of something? Unless your plan is grossly outside the parameters of your character, I would hope not.

Do I ask them to roll for everything? No. But when they have an idea it is something that needs to be reasonable in terms of character, or sensible based on what their character knows. If it seems off the mark I would usually ask a roll.....usually. In truth I eyeball it. But that is irellevant when comparing a game to a story.

But my problem is not that I needed a long explanation. Just that there should be some sort of explanation. Something. In this case there is nothing. Even a throwaway line beyond "I sense a trap" would be useful. The characters thinking things through is great. But we don't see it happen here with Tarquin, instead he just knows as if by "magic". That is all.

(And lots of good explanations could exist.......For some reason Rich didn't use any of them. This makes it seem asspully to me.)

[rewinn]

(And lots of good explanations could exist.......For some reason Rich didn't use any of them. This makes it seem asspully to me.)

Well, to put it in game terms, imagine you're running T's party and you're chasing Roy, who you respect.
At some point, you enter a hallway that your past 35 years of adventuring suggests to you would be a good place for Roy to set an ambush against you. Would you roll to see if you detected an ambush, or would you simply execute an Admiral Akbar move?

[FujinAkari]

With the Tarquin thing......yeah. If we need to invent a non-canon with DnD reason why he could sense the trap, when plenty of good ways to explain him cottoning on to the trap exist........I am going to dislike it. It seems like cheap and lazy writing to make a villain appear awesome without building in a proper explanation as to why the goodness could occur. But c'est la vie.

This is no longer a DnD comic. It has moved beyond that and, while many scenes can still be traced back to the DnD roots, not all of them can and they are similarly not meant to. Tarquin sensed the trap because he is a master of genre expectation. A long hallway after you have lost track of the quarry? OF COURSE he expects an ambush. It isn't a DnD gag because it is a "Every story ever told" gag. It is not meant to be palatable to D&D geeks, it is meant to be palatable to people who can read.

I'm sorry that the comic leaving its niche is making it less enjoyable for you, but you've had 600 strips to come to terms with it... so I'm really not sure what to tell you.

[WindStruck]

Tarquin? He probably wrote it.

Hey! So do you think the dragon kobold with him really doesn't have any special skills but is only his "six-year-old advisor"?

[Forikroder]

Hey! So do you think the dragon kobold with him really doesn't have any special skills but is only his "six-year-old advisor"?

kilkil did notice the problem in his Thog guise so maybe hes used to pointing out problems...

i dont see why people are still bitching about Tarquin figuring out an ambush was likely he picked up on the same things that made Roy want to set up an ambush there and moved to the front to fulfil his role of a meat shield, he didnt actually know Haley was about to shoot

[Math_Mage]

But my problem is not that I needed a long explanation. Just that there should be some sort of explanation. Something. In this case there is nothing. Even a throwaway line beyond "I sense a trap" would be useful. The characters thinking things through is great. But we don't see it happen here with Tarquin, instead he just knows as if by "magic". That is all.

(And lots of good explanations could exist.......For some reason Rich didn't use any of them. This makes it seem asspully to me.)

At the risk of repeating someone, it's only an asspull if Rich never explains it, and he has no shortage of opportunities to explain it in future strips. I don't disagree that it's a LITTLE too convenient presented in a vacuum, but it doesn't have to stay that way.

Re: all the "It's a long hallway with lots of traps, anyone could tell it was an ambush"--then why didn't Tarquin give that warning much further in advance? He's been in the long tunnel for long enough that whatever triggered his Admiral Ackbar sense wasn't just that.

[Forikroder]

At the risk of repeating someone, it's only an asspull if Rich never explains it, and he has no shortage of opportunities to explain it in future strips. I don't disagree that it's a LITTLE too convenient presented in a vacuum, but it doesn't have to stay that way.

Re: all the "It's a long hallway with lots of traps, anyone could tell it was an ambush"--then why didn't Tarquin give that warning much further in advance? He's been in the long tunnel for long enough that whatever triggered his Admiral Ackbar sense wasn't just that.

maybe he was walking through just admiring the senery and chatting with them then thinks "man if we were the ones being chased this would be a great place to set up an ambush" then it all click

[Sky_Schemer]

But my problem is not that I needed a long explanation. Just that there should be some sort of explanation. Something. In this case there is nothing.

If it occurred to Roy that this was a good place for an ambush, why is it so unreasonable that the exact same idea occurred to Tarquin?

It's not necessary to dial up the obviousity meter for this one. The explanation is already in front of us. What more do you need?

[MeanMrsMustard]

Hey! So do you think the dragon kobold with him really doesn't have any special skills but is only his "six-year-old advisor"?

This is my new headcanon.

[FujinAkari]

Re: all the "It's a long hallway with lots of traps, anyone could tell it was an ambush"--then why didn't Tarquin give that warning much further in advance? He's been in the long tunnel for long enough that whatever triggered his Admiral Ackbar sense wasn't just that.

... he gave the warning like 20 seconds after he got to that particular hallway. How much quicker are you expecting? O.o

Seriously, it was in the 5th bloody panel, and THAT assumes all of today's strip took place in the same hallway (which there is no evidence it doesn't, admittedly)

[factotum]

Unfortunately, I at least still don't get it.

Ken and Guile are two of the characters from the Street Fighter game, so the (rather weak) joke is that someone mentions guile, and the person responding asks if Ken is also involved.