OOTS #1175 - The Discussion Thread

[Skull the Troll]

tear down the moots building in bright daylight after the moot ends and youre set

sch

The people who built it are all gone except for the Frontarch. I'm guessing they are just going to leave it.

[diremage]

Doylism is only a political opinion when expressed by the Vampire Party about the Massacre At the Clan Hall as they argue that the Watsonian view of their humiliating defeat is Fake News propoganda spread by the Hero Party to destroy hard-working vampires.

Next we need the lone survivor to look over her shoulder at the hall and tearfully swear to reveal those Heroes for the monsters they are after killing everybody she'd known for the whole of her short life.

Probably just before Hilgya hits her with an Empowered Maximized Sudden Twinned Flamestrike, for Lo, she is Icky.

[The MunchKING]

Dubious. Durkula didn't research Protection from Sunlight and the staff was broken. While the other priests can't attack her, the building will eventually be returned to the mountain as Gontor (the living) suggested. As they all just witnessed what transpired, the priests can simply opt to do that when it's daytime. It's not an attack to carry out normal moot business in the absence of the administrators. The high priests are not responsible if a vampire chose to attend something where there would be an abundance of sunlight and did not prepare any spells for it.

Well to be fair, Darkness stops sunlight, that's pretty much it's whole job. And IIRC that's a standard Cleric spell. So as long as she does it far enough away it doesn't count as attacking anyone, She should have the spells to get out of there.

[Squire Doodad]

Well to be fair, Darkness stops sunlight, that's pretty much it's whole job. And IIRC that's a standard Cleric spell. So as long as she does it far enough away it doesn't count as attacking anyone, She should have the spells to get out of there.

Pretty much odds are the Frontarchess survives, assuming she is aware of what she can actually do (Darkness, WoR rigged for her living self's safe spot, and so on).

Do you guys think the Frontarchess is actually able to cast Summon Proxy, or is it just that since Hel has voted already she just needs some representative to keep her vote valid?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Since we have no idea what level the spell is, no real answer. Dvalin's not-High Priest was able to cast it for the Council Conclave, though.

[Squire Doodad]

Since we have no idea what level the spell is, no real answer. Dvalin's not-High Priest was able to cast it for the Council Conclave, though.

Maybe it's a 2nd level spell meant to work for just about any god's cleric, and Hel has been having some serious trouble getting a cleric in the first place. Like, moreso than we would have expected.

[Elan's Modron]

It's not the first time she flees a lost battle.

Grey Wolf

Ah! Thanks for this! That was gonna drive me crazy, tracking that reference down...

[Alex Warlorn]

Maybe Hel should cut her losses and use her last surviving vampire cleric to play along with the most powerful undead on the planet.

[goodpeople25]

How in the nine hells is she supposed to get into contact with Trigak?

[Jannoire]

Since we have no idea what level the spell is, no real answer. Dvalin's not-High Priest was able to cast it for the Council Conclave, though.

Nope. That was not the Summon Proxy spell. It was more like the time when Veldrina and that representative from the south were to transmit their pantheon's vote to the Northern pantheon. There was no spell cast, but a 'Zot' and the individual was taken over.

[Quebbster]

Nope. That was not the Summon Proxy spell. It was more like the time when Veldrina and that representative from the south were to transmit their pantheon's vote to the Northern pantheon. There was no spell cast, but a 'Zot' and the individual was taken over.

"Voting requires casting a high-end clerical spell that both contacts the diety and transmits their vote to the other gods."
It's probably not Summon Proxy but it's still not something that happens automatically I Think. I assume the Western and Southern high priests cast the spell and channeled it through Vel and Southern Guy, hence Vel's surprise.
Or maybe Roy just misunderstood. That's definitely a possibility.

[Cerlis]

anything can happen but i think considering the kids grandmother's "sometimes you got to kill anything that remotely threatens your kid" comment i think that shot of her running away is a set up for a big panel of her getting smote.

yes the author likes to subvert things, but he also likes to dramatically enforce things. smiting her on screen would be a good way to guarantee to the audience that this plot thread wont rear its head anytime soon at least until the gods have to get down and dirty with the snarl (i can see her trying to convince the Dark One not to comply)

things like roys magic sword, familicide, V's alignment daliance, and a few other things are examples of things that could be theory fodder but the author put in bold letters so there wouldnt be any doubt.

hell he killed and disintegrated Nale on screen

[Cerlis]

As an one-dimensional comic-relief character, Thog is simply not important enough to have his dead/alive status sorted out. His death is not necessary to resolve any plot point in the story, neither is demanded by the readers, unlike what tends to happen with evil murderous characters.

Keeping his status uncertain leaves him available for The Giant should he ever finds useful to use that character again at some point to crack one last laught.

exactly there is only 1 reason for him to be dead and he could end up as a 1 panel joke for a dozen reasons.

i imagine in the epilogue of the story might be there as a little throw away "some things change some things stay the same"*pictures thog killing peasants with an elf blade singer he calls Not Not-Nale Nale"

thats why ppl are being so stubborn about it. i dont think many care to have him present in the plot but a single joke could be served by a throwaway panel of him

(if it where me i'd show him about to get executed cheerfully. as a subversion. "Yes he lived, but he's not going to stay that way!")

[Snails]

Maybe Hel should cut her losses and use her last surviving vampire cleric to play along with the most powerful undead on the planet.

That actually makes a lot of sense, because things going smoothly for Xykon could precipitate another motion to destroy the world.

[drazen]

They've had over a day. Macey likely has Word of Recall up. And even if she doesn't have the levels for it, Hel probably still gave it to her.

Why didn't *Malack* have Word of Recall up if he knew he was going into the desert? He'd have had more reason than Fronty, who might not even think to ask their host the details and is fully expecting the world to end soon anyway. I guess Plane Shift might be another choice? I am only passingly familiar with D&D basics so I am not an expert.

[chiefwaha]

Why didn't *Malack* have Word of Recall up if he knew he was going into the desert? He'd have had more reason than Fronty, who might not even think to ask their host the details and is fully expecting the world to end soon anyway. I guess Plane Shift might be another choice? I am only passingly familiar with D&D basics so I am not an expert.

Because Malack needed to die permanently for story purposes.

[Mightymosy]

Just wanted to say:

Durkon is all about doing things for other people. He lives for the community.
As such, it is fitting that "his book" ends with his community defeating the bad guys, not just a solo boss fight or even the OotS fighting some boss adversaries.

[JT]

Why didn't *Malack* have Word of Recall up if he knew he was going into the desert? He'd have had more reason than Fronty, who might not even think to ask their host the details and is fully expecting the world to end soon anyway. I guess Plane Shift might be another choice? I am only passingly familiar with D&D basics so I am not an expert.

Not gonna look back for it, but wasn’t it determined that a Vamp in sunlight can -only- move or attack?

[Quebbster]

Not gonna look back for it, but wasn’t it determined that a Vamp in sunlight can -only- move or attack?

He could cast Slay Living. If he had a spell that could let him escape the sun he could have used that instead.

[Dion]

Why didn't *Malack* have Word of Recall up if he knew he was going into the desert?

Maybe he did. But vampires can’t cast spells in sunlight. They can only move or attack.

He could cast Slay Living. If he had a spell that could let him escape the sun he could have used that instead.

Oh, good call. Never mind then.

[hroþila]

The real answer is "because he felt it wouldn't be necessary, as he was prepared enough as it was, and he also needed healing and offensive spells to perform his duties."

[Jasdoif]

He could cast Slay Living. If he had a spell that could let him escape the sun he could have used that instead.

The real answer is "because he felt it wouldn't be necessary, as he was prepared enough as it was, and he also needed healing and offensive spells to perform his duties."

Both (and more) of these.

Also, I would point out that Malack was being expected by Tarquin to fulfill the traditional role of the cleric in this party: healing. Since he's an Evil cleric, that means he has to actually prepare his healing spells in advance. So in addition to the Harm and Greater Dispel Magic spells he already cast, he had at least one Heal spell prepared.

At what point did he feel confident that his amazing supernatural abilities, custom magic items, and defensive spells prepared were going to be enough? This point. Being wrong does not make him a fool.

Thinking about it more, I would also suggest that being a cleric of Death and Destruction would have played a part in where Malack drew the line at preparedness. I feel like at a certain point, Malack would have said to himself, "If I take all of these many and varied precautions and am still destroyed, then it is Nergal's unholy will."

Of course, he felt somewhat differently when he was actually being destroyed.

To paraphrase an old joke: Do you accept the story premise that Nale was more prepared, more capable, and more driven to kill Malack than Malack himself was expecting?

Yes?

Then we're just haggling over price.

And if you don't accept that, if you think Malack deserved to win, then no amount of wasted panels showing spells and countermeasures would have changed that opinion. If I had put in a Word of Recall followed by Z counterspelling it or something, then there would have been some other strategy that you would have hung your hat on to say, "Why didn't Malack do this??" If you don't accept that Nale was already aware of all of Malack's defenses and had a means to counter them, then nothing will change that. If you do accept it, then it doesn't matter how much of it I show.

And if I had wasted Malacks one round with a Word of Recall, I would have lost the much-more-dramatically-impactful moment of Malack deciding to spend his one action trying to kill Nale back. I assure you that if the D&D rules gave vampires 3 rounds before sun-death, I would have spent one of those rounds on a Word of Recall attempt that was stopped by Z somehow. But when I only had one round, I chose to use it showing that Malack wanted to kill Nale just as much as Nale wanted to kill Malack. Because as I've said before, I care more about the emotional content of the story than I do about plausibility. I would rather have a story that felt right and was riddled with logical errors than a story that was logically flawless but repetitive and dull.

If you can get through the all-caps style, I recommend Film Crit Hulk's (very long) essay on plot-holes and logic. It's geared more toward movies than comics, but a lot of the same points apply.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Nope. That was not the Summon Proxy spell. It was more like the time when Veldrina and that representative from the south were to transmit their pantheon's vote to the Northern pantheon. There was no spell cast, but a 'Zot' and the individual was taken over.

You're conflating two different spells. Summon Proxy, which creates a giant illusory construct for your god to speak through, and whatever it is you use to vote. We're discussing the second. And since it can be used on a favored soul without them knowing it, it looks like it has nothing to do with cleric level. The deity themselves cast it using the High Priest(ess) as a material component.

[The MunchKING]

Why didn't *Malack* have Word of Recall up if he knew he was going into the desert? He'd have had more reason than Fronty, who might not even think to ask their host the details and is fully expecting the world to end soon anyway. I guess Plane Shift might be another choice? I am only passingly familiar with D&D basics so I am not an expert.

He thought Protection from Daylight would be enough and he even prepared it an extra time in case it was dispelled, AND had extra in his staff. He was also planning on adventuring, which means he needed a load out. Where as the Frontiarch needs to A) Channel Hel's Unholy will for the rest of the voting, and then B) Get out of there, so she can afford to spend whatever spells aren't used on Summon Proxy on stuff to help her survive.

[Fish]

I believe the Giant (or someone else during that discussion) also made the point that one can either prepare for victory (with offense) or prepare for defeat (with defense and contingencies and escapes). If all your spells are defense in case you lose, you make losing almost inevitable. If you make all your spells offensive, you are setting yourself up to always have one more weapon in a fight to the death. You give yourself the best chance at victory by preparing for it.

All of the backseat drivers (“Malack/Nale/Durkula should have done X”) probably never played D&D. I distinctly remember the groans of players saying “And I was going to prepare that today, but I didn’t! Argh!” and the cries of triumph like “Ha! Didn’t I say I thought we might need that one?”

Sometimes you just didn’t plan your spells right. It happens. It’s not a plot hole.

[Resileaf]

You're conflating two different spells. Summon Proxy, which creates a giant illusory construct for your god to speak through, and whatever it is you use to vote. We're discussing the second. And since it can be used on a favored soul without them knowing it, it looks like it has nothing to do with cleric level. The deity themselves cast it using the High Priest(ess) as a material component.

Small nitpick, I'd say more a focus than a material component because material components are destroyed upon spellcast.

[Jasdoif]

I believe the Giant (or someone else during that discussion) also made the point that one can either prepare for victory (with offense) or prepare for defeat (with defense and contingencies and escapes). If all your spells are defense in case you lose, you make losing almost inevitable. If you make all your spells offensive, you are setting yourself up to always have one more weapon in a fight to the death. You give yourself the best chance at victory by preparing for it.

A little later in the same thread, yes.

While I seem to have you on the line, am I unfair when I characterized Malack as "paranoid?" Because it seems to be a point of contention with some other posters.

I think so, yes. "Paranoid" implies that the character is putting their safety and well-being ahead of all other considerations, including reason. Malack was reasonably prepared; he was not paranoid. He balanced self-preservation with utility. Putting a backdoor into Durkon's spell cost him nothing, so he did it. But preparing his highest-level spells as defensive spells does cost you the ability to actually advance your goals.

It's sort of a self-fulflling prophecy. If you spend your best spell slots on escape spells, then you will certainly be forced to use them. If you spend your best spell slots on offense, you might actually win. You have to take some risk in order to get ahead, even when you're a 200-year-old vampire.

If you want paranoid, look at Ian. He's so unwilling to take the risk of trusting Elan that he would rather sit in the jail cell.

[Resileaf]

You should only prepare multiple escape vectors if defeat is a certainty from the beginning. Vampires are already pretty suited to being able to escape destruction (misting and mind control are powerful tools), and Malack in particular has the (at the time) unique protection from sunlight spell that makes him immune to a vampire's biggest threat: the Sun. A spell he has prepared twice a day because he knows that it's possible to dispel, which therefore already locks two spells that he can cast every day. Adding to this, he presumably does have word of recall prepared (as the Giant said that it would have been countered if Malack had more rounds to fight, I can only assume that he does prepare it as well), at which point three high level spell slots are taken. Two of them are necessary to his survival, the last is a backup plan. Anything more is superfluous.

[Fish]

A spell he has prepared twice a day because he knows that it's possible to dispel...

And also had a staff with the spell embedded in it. It isn’t likely that Malack needed another escape route, unless he happened to be fighting an enemy who knew his preparations as well or better than he did.

Oh wait.

[Squire Doodad]

And also had a staff with the spell embedded in it. It isn’t likely that Malack needed another escape route, unless he happened to be fighting an enemy who knew his preparations as well or better than he did.

Oh wait.

Pretty much. Malack had every reasonable precaution taken to make sure that he'd be fine. Then he took another set of precautions. Nale was just a bit ahead of him, and caught him unawares.