OOTS #1086 - The Discussion Thread

[meto30]

A fear that minor vampire cleric forgets that, the purpose and social life of a door ends not merely at opening at closing to let entities in and out, it is a door by doing so selectively. It is neither a wall or a hole in a wall, it is a door, and it functions by being picky in what it lets in (authorised personnel, tasty morsels, proper paperwork) and what it keeps out (the cold winter air, the noise of the municipal highway, unwated vampires).¹ Therefore, it is being entirely true to its intended role and is faithfully carrying out its duty - the vampire is merely meekly trying to resist the all-powerful automaton from inscribing in the vampire his social position.

[1] Latour, Bruno (1992), "Where are the missing masses? The sociology of a few mundane artifacts", in Bijker, Wiebe E.; Law, John, Shaping technology/building society: studies in sociotechnical change, Cambridge, Massachusetts: MIT Press, pp. 225–258


Joking aside, that sight of Durkon's mother weeping a tear for her son's sake brings me to tears as well. She must have been so proud.

[woweedd]

Well, one of the few things we knew about Gontor was that he helped build the cathedral for the moot. He may have a good bit of Kmow: Architecture and Engineering, and the vamp controlling him is just getting flooded with architectural memories.

Which could lead to a rather large grudge against architecture, if he's not as interested in it. Stupid door.

Given that he'd presumably be a dark mirror of Gontor in the same way that Durkon's vampire spirit is a dark reflection of him, i'd imagine he wouldn't have much interest in it. Only in Hel.

[goodpeople25]

No, he just wants the door to be unhinged.

But if a hinged door isn't hinged, what is it for!?

[Wristlet Eater]

But if a hinged door isn't hinged, what is it for!?

You can make a table with it.

[Jasdoif]

But if a hinged door isn't hinged, what is it for!?

"Door, what are you good for?"
"Aggravating vampires."

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not necessarily. A Vampire spirit doesn't HAVE to serve Hel: Durkon* serves her because he's meant as an Evil version of regular Durkon and, so, he's just as fanatically loyal to Hel as Durkon was to his God IE Thor. That said, given that all these vampires were in a religious cult themselves, you're still right.

Yes, they were religious, but very prominently, chose to NOT follow a god, but a force of nature (stone), even though it meant not having a voice or a vote in the moots. Their vampire spirits could easily decide to eschew Hel and worship the dark energy instead.

GW

[Ruck]

It's clear that not all new vampires are as smart as they were before they were made undead. Geez.

So Greg agrees that they don't need to unseal the temple door. Why was it important then? Because they expected their targets to gather in the temple and they planned to stake it out so they could pounce and Dominate everyone?

That is what I expected. As I mentioned earlier, though, I think the evidence is pointing to the Order arriving before the Council, so Hel's Shell is trying to figure out a way to dispatch them first, before continuing on to rig the vote.

Not necessarily. A Vampire spirit doesn't HAVE to serve Hel: Durkon* serves her because he's meant as an Evil version of regular Durkon and, so, he's just as fanatically loyal to Hel as Durkon was to his God IE Thor. That said, given that all these vampires were in a religious cult themselves, you're still right. Though, actually, DID Hel create all their spirits? Are all these guys Northerners or were some of them from other parts of the world and had their spirits birthed by Nergal or Rat? Probably doesn't matter, but still, interesting idea.

Yes, they were religious, but very prominently, chose to NOT follow a god, but a force of nature (stone), even though it meant not having a voice or a vote in the moots. Their vampire spirits could easily decide to eschew Hel and worship the dark energy instead.

GW

This is all kind of academic, right? They're all still in thrall to Pastor Expiration (both the Ex-Exarch and the guy with the rock bat have referred to him as "Master").

[canpinter]

So Greg asked for a good view "of the room on the other side of this door" but he didn't say anything about wanting to know what came after that, could our lovable little dwarf just tricked him into going on a much longer and more dangerous path?

[Wristlet Eater]

This is all kind of academic, right? They're all still in thrall to Pastor Expiration (both the Ex-Exarch and the guy with the rock bat have referred to him as "Master").

The master of your master can also be called master, though.

[woweedd]

Yes, they were religious, but very prominently, chose to NOT follow a god, but a force of nature (stone), even though it meant not having a voice or a vote in the moots. Their vampire spirits could easily decide to eschew Hel and worship the dark energy instead.

GW

Very astute observation, GW.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This is all kind of academic, right? They're all still in thrall to Pastor Expiration (both the Ex-Exarch and the guy with the rock bat have referred to him as "Master").

Probably. They do seem to be acting more like thralls (baby-ish) than free-willed, but my hypothesis would explain why Greg does not dare set them free: he cannot be sure of their allegiance once freed.

GW

[woweedd]

The master of your master can also be called master, though.

Hmmm..That raises the question: If Gontor* were to be taken out, say, in the coming battle, would his thralls all just default to Durkon*'s control or would they be freed and then, potentially, turn against Hel? Possible Chekhov's Gun in the making? Of course, that's assuming that it's even possible for a thrall to have thralls. I"m not sure if it is and i'm pretty sure RAW doesn't say anything on the subject.

[Anarion]

I really like the variety of the dwarf designs in the memory panels. Very cool family and friends group.

[Menarker]

I'm curious about the 'copy-paste' twins in panel 7. Only one of them is visible in panel 6. Error, or just well-hidden?

... maybe behind the girl with the doll, judging from the extra beige colored arm coming from her side?

[Ruck]

The master of your master can also be called master, though.

That's not relevant to the point I was making.

[PBlades]

If a door that wants to be closed is a wall, what is a door that wants to be opened?

[Psychronia]

Good to see Durkon being as tough as ever, and perhaps even a little more hope-driven than before?

Also, Nega-Gontor seems very fixated on this door thing.

It's a door that want's to be a wall!

Stop repressing my venture, you sociocentric lich!

[Jasdoif]

Hmmm..That raises the question: If Gontor* were to be taken out, say, in the coming battle, would his thralls all just default to Durkon*'s control or would they be freed and then, potentially, turn against Hel? Possible Chekhov's Gun in the making? Of course, that's assuming that it's even possible for a thrall to have thralls.

It certainly is.

....the new vampire or spawn is under the command of the vampire that created it and remains enslaved until its master’s destruction. At any given time a vampire may have enslaved spawn totaling no more than twice its own Hit Dice; any spawn it creates that would exceed this limit are created as free-willed vampires or vampire spawn. A vampire that is enslaved may create and enslave spawn of its own, so a master vampire can control a number of lesser vampires in this fashion. A vampire may voluntarily free an enslaved spawn in order to enslave a new spawn, but once freed, a vampire or vampire spawn cannot be enslaved again.

Bold emphasis mine.

[Goblin_Priest]

"That´s definitively a use fer it". Just me, or does it seem Durkon has his own reason to show Durkula this particular memory?
I guess as a Thor priest he visited the temple several other times. Maybe there were some new added features not shown in this scene (like extra wards)?

I'm just guessing here, but did he show him a memory of the room at its strongest in order to deter Durkon* from pursuing a means to enter? The room might not have any wards left, choosing to show its former state would be one way (and about the only way) oppose him.

[pendell]

New comic is up.

WOoo! Lightning fast updates, great artwork, advancing story lines, funny last panel that makes me giggle, what's not to love? Thanks , Rich!

ETA: Thanks to the other posters here for pointing out Durkon's continued resistance: He was told to show a memory of the hall, not the most current one or the most useful one. It is very likely that Durkon succeeded in misleading his enemy. As mentioned , the visible "wards" may be only decorations, or are perhaps only temporary. I'm inclined to think the hall is not nearly as hostile an environment as it has been presented as, so score one for Durkon the Discrete Consciousness.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Goblin_Priest]

"Door, what are you good for?"
"Aggravating vampires."

Which reminds me one of vampires' ridiculous weaknesses: aren't they unable to enter a building unless invited in?

[One Step Two]

I'm curious about the 'copy-paste' twins in panel 7. Only one of them is visible in panel 6. Error, or just well-hidden?

... maybe behind the girl with the doll, judging from the extra beige colored arm coming from her side?

It looks like the girl with doll is sitting on Uncle Thirden's shoulders, obscuring the second twin.

[King of Nowhere]

"lots of things worth doing are not painless" is a pretty good badass boast. I must use it somewhere.

[woweedd]

It certainly is.

Bold emphasis mine.

Thank you! Failed my Spot check there. Sadly, it still doesn't explain what happens if the thrall is destroyed.

[Goblin_Priest]

Thank you! Failed my Spot check there. Sadly, it still doesn't explain what happens if the thrall is destroyed.

Yea, to be honest, I have no idea how to interpret that statement. Are the slaves under the master's control directly or the slave's? If the slaver slave dies, do they go to his control or none? If he dies, do the slaver slaves remain in control of their slaves?

The first half of the sentence seems to suggest that the new slaves belong to the one who immediately sired them. The second half of it seems to suggest that slaves can be used as proxies by the master to get more slaves for himself.

[Jasdoif]

Which reminds me one of vampires' ridiculous weaknesses: aren't they unable to enter a building unless invited in?

Generally yes. Doesn't apply to public places though, and dominating an authority figure to get an invitation is a fairly straightforward option.

Thank you! Failed my Spot check there. Sadly, it still doesn't explain what happens if the thrall is destroyed.

I think it does, actually: a thrall is enslaved until the vampire that spawned it is destroyed (or is voluntarily freed), and a former thrall can't be enslaved again.

Even if a direct transfer of mastery (Masterdom? Mastership?) were implied, the situation that would call for a "thrall of a thrall" structure would almost certainly be the HD cap on how many enslaved spawn a vampire can have at once; HPoH would end up over capacity and not be able to keep them all under his control, especially if his stand-in at the Godsmoot is still enslaved, and have to leave some of them freed.

[Samzat]

What is with the exarch and ensuring things follow the proper role?

[Chei]

Aw, Durkon's ordainment. That's nice to see. Also, that it physically pains him if he doesn't give up his memories willingly sucks to hear.

I get the feeling we're going to see Durkon's mom. I wonder if the vampire is up for a little Regenerate?

[danielxcutter]

Good catch guys. That makes sense.

Also the Ex-arch remains comedy gold. "Do you want to be a wall? Is that it? Do your job, you disobedient ingress!!

[Mandor]

Greg: "I don't understand why you would continue to put yourself in agony during what little time you have left as a discrete consciousness."

That's a fairly disturbing line, actually. What.... happens.... to Durkon if it takes too long? I just assumed Durkon's soul is Durkon's soul, he may be housed / imprisioned for the long haul, but ... does he actually get.... Unmade? Absorbed? Nullified? In some manner if enough time passes?

Malack talked about the shaman whose body he inherited in terms of a dead-and-gone other, but I'd assumed that was just Malack speaking territorially about the whole affair.

[EDIT: sigh, yes, I suppose I should actually READ the threads before chipping in my $0.02 on a matter several people have already pointed out... but jeez, where's the fun in THAT? ]