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2010-11-23, 01:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-11-23, 01:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
You're mad! Mad, I say!
Handbooks: (Hosted on the new MixMax forums)
[3.5] The Poison Handbook
[3.5] (New) Master of Shrouds Handbook
[3.5 Base Class] Healer's Handbook
Trophies!Spoiler
Thanks to Strategos and Jumilk for the awesome Iron Chef trophies!
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2010-11-23, 02:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
Come on, Akal, you probably have two in you. My second is more of a flavor thing than anything else.
EDIT: wewt, second build submitted! Shink, don't extend it again or you might get a third.
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2010-11-23, 06:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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- Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
Let's reveal our contestants!
Bu the hobo fist
Eric Redscale
Simon the Incompetent Archer
Laph Roig
Vermillion
Uthunan Kavuilika
Chieftain Nini, the Whiskey King
Gazebo JonesLast edited by true_shinken; 2010-11-24 at 07:12 AM.
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2010-11-23, 06:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
It happens in the best monasteries, it seems.
Originally Posted by Bu the Hobo Fist
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2010-11-23, 06:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
I tend to repeat myself on this: dragons are always relevant.
Specially when they are drunk.
Originally Posted by Eric Redscale
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2010-11-23, 06:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
Simon says: everybody grab a glass of wine!
Originally Posted by Simon
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2010-11-23, 06:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
Everybody was kung-fu fighting... those guys were drunk as lightning...
...wait a second, that ain't right.
Originally Posted by Laph
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2010-11-23, 06:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
I guess you can't say he fights like a cow.
Originally Posted by Vermillion
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2010-11-23, 06:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
I swear to God, I can't pronounce that name.
...and a basketweaver? Dude! That's too much! I'm glad you are not underwater, at least.
Originally Posted by Uthunan
Originally Posted by UthunanLast edited by true_shinken; 2010-11-24 at 07:08 AM.
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2010-11-23, 06:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
Heh, I bet Jumilk will really like this one.
Musha rain dum-a-doo dum-a-da, ha, ya
Whack for my daddy-o
Whack for my daddy-o
There's whiskey in the jar-o
Whiskey in the jar-o
- Metallica (?), Whiskey in the Jar
Originally Posted by Chieftain NiniLast edited by true_shinken; 2010-11-23 at 06:29 PM.
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2010-11-23, 06:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
There was a time when monsters disguised itselves as furniture to attack adventurers. It was time someone stepped up for revenge.
This summer we bring you the story of Gazebo Jones.
Originally Posted by Gazebo JonesLast edited by true_shinken; 2011-05-09 at 02:51 PM.
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2010-11-23, 06:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
OK, that's the last of them. Ready, set, judge!
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2010-11-23, 07:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
ok...I may not be the first one done. Azeroth just shattered and I'm hanging out with my brother tonight. But I really like these, should have'em done pretty soon regardless.
My friend and I have a blog, we write D&D stuff there: http://forgotmydice.com/
Comedian avatar by The_Stoney_One
A Guide to Commonly Misunderstood 5th Edition Rules
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2010-11-23, 07:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
Oh, is WoW having a live event? Maybe I'll start up their "come back to play!!" trial to see what's going on...
Handbooks: (Hosted on the new MixMax forums)
[3.5] The Poison Handbook
[3.5] (New) Master of Shrouds Handbook
[3.5 Base Class] Healer's Handbook
Trophies!Spoiler
Thanks to Strategos and Jumilk for the awesome Iron Chef trophies!
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2010-11-23, 07:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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- The land of corn
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
I was hoping Drunken Master would come at a time when I had no classes. Because the idea that always struck me for Drunken Master is Half-Ogre Drunken Hurler. Starts out as a Monk/Drunken Master beating up enemies with other allies until he realises that enemies that maybe throwing enemies at each other could be cool, like drunk bowling.
Silly idea, of course.
Interesting stuff from the entrants here.
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2010-11-23, 07:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
Drat, couldn't get my second entry done in time. It included Serene Guardian 4....
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2010-11-23, 08:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
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2010-11-23, 08:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
Ha! If I had have had more time and motivation, that's the build I was going to submit.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...hlight=drunkenMy winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
Torn-City - Massively multiplayer online browser based crime RPG
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2010-11-23, 08:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
Last edited by Amphetryon; 2010-11-24 at 06:56 AM.
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2010-11-23, 08:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2008
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- In an Octopus's Garden
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
I was only 1 for 3 on my predictions. Unless, I missed it, there are no paladins and no binders in XV. I'm glad to see an Ardent, though, something about drunk psychics amuse me.
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2010-11-23, 08:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
Handbooks: (Hosted on the new MixMax forums)
[3.5] The Poison Handbook
[3.5] (New) Master of Shrouds Handbook
[3.5 Base Class] Healer's Handbook
Trophies!Spoiler
Thanks to Strategos and Jumilk for the awesome Iron Chef trophies!
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2010-11-23, 08:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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- Terra Australis
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
Torn-City - Massively multiplayer online browser based crime RPG
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2010-11-23, 08:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
wow. I should have submitted my idea.
Brother Toad
monk 3/dungeoncrasher fighter 2/shou disciple 3/fist of the forest 3/drunken master 9
Battle jump + shape soulmeld for staggering, pouncing, corkscrew rushes that would repeatedly slam opponents into the ground as a move action.
Took a while to get going and still faced a lot of traditional monk problems. On the other hand, it could inflict some rather impressive damage when it hit (20th level monk equivelant while unarmed + typical size augmentation and other boni). Unfortunately, due to attributes, he would only have been able to consume 5 drinks before his intelligence became dangerously close to zero.
I could not find the right race for the concept though. I wanted something reminiscent of one of the Daoist masters of legend, but with some decent stat boosts to offset the MAD. Feral human just would not cut it. Hanuman or Hobgoblin were other options, but neither of those were right either.
Well done to everyone that submitted, I am very impressed with the range of builds presented.
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2010-11-24, 12:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
Well I know who I'd give top marks to... and it isn't mine. Some impressive stuff here.
.
Ding, You've Got Trophies!Spoiler
Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone you may still exist but you have ceased to live. - Samuel Clemens
Oh, and DFTBA.
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2010-11-24, 02:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
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2010-11-24, 03:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
But...why would you ever need any other link?
Handbooks: (Hosted on the new MixMax forums)
[3.5] The Poison Handbook
[3.5] (New) Master of Shrouds Handbook
[3.5 Base Class] Healer's Handbook
Trophies!Spoiler
Thanks to Strategos and Jumilk for the awesome Iron Chef trophies!
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2010-11-24, 03:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
Still not ready, but at least one out of 8 should be ready to go. Will post when all 8 are ready.
Since I wanted to be the mystery judge and all contestants have revealed their builds, I want to share my criteria now. Perhaps it won't be the same as the others, and may change a bit on later judgings (if I manage to do others), but I find that if someone wishes to debate whether a ruling was unfair or not, it's better to work with some rulings.
Thus:
SpoilerOriginality: I prefer to see this on a case-by-case basis. I like to be surprised, peppered with rare stuff; if the stuff is obscure, better. You see, delving into books to find rare and unusual "ingredients" adds to the originality, even if they aren't very powerful or have elegance issues. Most classes that don't fit the background or the attempted build, or heavily used races may find themselves low on originality, but if there's a good reason why you should use a common ingredient (say, human or dragonborn), I can let that one slide.
Power: For this, I focus on how well it'll work on combat. I find two measures to be useful; the power/level ratio (how "powerful" the build is based on the level, hence a very powerful class at level 1 will always have a 5, a powerful build at level 20 may have a 5, but a build that starts really weak and only gets strong with one or two tricks and at later levels gets a deck on the scores). The other is comparing the build's power to the simplest and most similar build; for example, a spellcaster build may be compared to a straight Cleric/Wizard/Sorcerer/Favored Soul/Druid/Psion build, and if it retains some of its power despite the obvious exchange, it will almost always get a 5 (you can lose even two or three caster levels, but if what you get allows you to offset those huge losses, then it's not a power loss. This is also on a case-to-case basis, and you don't have to be 100% as powerful as the compared build to succeed (even a character with 75% the power of the compared build but still capable of holding its own in battle without much difficulties could get a 4 or even a 5 depending on how well it compares). I don't focus very much on outside of combat, but if there's an out-of-combat ability that deserves to be praised, I will.
Elegance: Here I notice few things. Good points on Elegance, of course, are gained with creative uses of class abilities, positive synergies between different abilities, elegant solutions, and not that much clutter. Bad points on Elegance exist if other options could have worked better (whether it happens with the secret ingredient or not), "orphan" abilities (abilities that exist on their own and that have no explanation of use), and confusing layouts (though I can be lenient at that, myself finding my own entries to be cluttery and somewhat disorganized)
Use of Secret Ingredient: First things first; you don't have to take all 10 levels if you don't want to. However, if getting one more level in a class could have done worlds of good to your build, you lose points. If you, on the other hand, prove that the other abilities can be replaced by something else, then I can give points. The idea is that you have a point to prove with your build, and why getting into that class is more important than taking levels in another class; if you can prove it faithfully, 5 points you earn.
Hopefully I won't get people angry over this. Bear with me; this is my first judging and I'll be rife with errors of a first-timer. Still, I hope to be fair, impartial, and also as verbose as I can possibly be. Oh, and also rather quick: I hope to do one or two judgings per day, but don't take my entire word on that. Once I finish them all, I'll post and you can decide whether I was really fair, impartial, and verbose as I intend to.Retooler of D&D 3.5 (and 5e/Next) content. See here for more.
Now with a comprehensive guide for 3.5 Paladin players porting to Pathfinder. Also available for 5th Edition
On Lawful Good:
T.G. Oskar profile by Specter.
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2010-11-24, 03:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
Ok, done! Only took until 3 am, but I did waste a lot of the evening on WoW. I was definitely right in that these would be fun to judge; every single build this time around was entertaining and a credit to this contest. I believe I gave out the highest overall scores I've ever given, which is saying something with 8 entries. I raise my glass to all the chefs, and wish you the best of luck!
Bu the Hobo Fist:
Spoiler
Originality: 3.5
The fluff is excellent, and Chameleon was unexpected in this contest, that's for sure. I would have made this higher, but even you admit it's a nod to Fistbeard Beardfist, a well-known combo on these boards, so I can't give full marks.
Power: 4
Strong melee fighter, making excellent use of class feature synergy and feats, with Chameleon at the end to add some high-level versatility. I would definitely feel at home playing this guy in a mid-to-high op game, and you explained his abilities well.
Elegance: 4
I see no shenanigans, and your class levels do fit very well into your concept. The FotF re-fluff is fine with me, but some DM's may balk at it. Mongrelfolk is kind of a power-gamey race, and there are also two UA variants in here. Also very MAD, which you yourself point out, which needs expensive equipment to bring it up. Again, all of that is fine with me, but I can't put this at a 5 because it may require redesign to fit into a lot of games.
Use of Drunken Master: 4
This is a very good build, and Drunken Master fits in here very well, especially with the awesome backstory you wrote. Even without all 10 levels, I feel this a pretty good representation of the class. I would have liked to have seen what you'd have done with 9 levels and corkscrew rush, but hey, very good job overall.
SCORE:
Overall - 15.5
Average - 3.875
Eric Redscale:
Spoiler
Originality: 4
Drunken Dragonfire Adept. Nice. While I usually think that the "dragon-wannabe" classes are overdone in 3.5, IC is a pretty good place to fool around with them and play with the concept, which I enjoyed you doing here. Decent story, too.
Power: 4.5
This guy is very well put together and can really dish out the pain with the Con synergy of drink like a demon and breath weapons. Not as strong in melee as most of the builds here, but he doesn't need to be.
Elegance: 2.5
While the idea of a giganto-huge 10 drink breath of flame is awesome, it is somewhat questionable as to whether the ability is meant to do that. RAW it works, yes, but I imagine most DM's would limit the use of the ability to once per round. I love the concept of a drunkard breathing more fire than a dragon, but it does seem a little cheesy. Also, I had a hard time figuring out what Initiate of Draconic Mysteries was doing in the build. It really doesn't contribute much except evasion and boosting saves via the old one-level dip in an all-good-progression class, it's just an entry trick to grab evasion. This build also requires your group to have all 3 of the Dragony Dragon-ness of Dragon books. Even with all that though, it's still legal and fits together overall, so we'll keep the score at 2.5.
Use of Drunken Master: 2.5
Aside from the capstone (ab)use, this build really doesn't need Drunken Master other than as a Con-booster, which can be accomplished in a lot of other ways. You did work in the other abilities of the class, but with low BAB and primarily using ranged attacks, this guy won't really be doing the kung-fu antics most people think of for the class.
SCORE:
Overall - 13.5
Average - 3.375
Simon:
Spoiler
Originality: 4
Soulbow...master thrower...ok...definitely didn't see that one coming. The story didn't jump out at me, but the mechanics are creative, to say the least.
Power: 3.5
Fairly solid ranged attacker, but more than a bit of a one-trick pony. Can melee too, for sure, but the damage would be less impressive. Pretty much high-end tier 4.
Elegance: 2.5
I have no problem with your class levels, feat selections, or anything in the table itself. The main problem, which you discuss at length, is the odd interpretation of the mind arrow ability. The class feature states, and I quote, "The bolt is identical in all ways (except visually) to an arrow shot from a composite longbow." The rest of the text all refers to them being fired; there's nothing that says you can make a mind arrow without shooting it at something. While it's certainly not game breaking, and I give you full marks for creativity, it's not really RAW.
Use of Drunken Master: 3
The improvised weapon ability is a keystone of your build, and you make sure to keep up your melee ability as well, so it does work pretty well. My main issue here is that you don't take Drunken Master until ECL 12, so the SI takes a while to be relevant.
SCORE:
Overall - 13
Average - 3.25
Laph:
Spoiler
Originality: 2.5
This build is kind of the inevitable psionic/monk combo I think a lot of people were expecting to see. It's not bad, but it didn't raise my eyebrows at all.
Power: 4
A solid tier 3 character, with a fair amount of versatility and good melee damage output. Definitely one of the more optimized builds in this contest.
Elegance: 4
I can't find anything wrong with this build, which is always a plus. Fairly good flow of levels, and the backstory was alright, if a little lackluster. I needed something more to push this higher, either some more synergy of the classes (maybe some Talashtora action or something) or just a slightly different arrangement, can't quite put my finger on it.
Use of Drunken Master: 3.5
Takes the class and puts it together with things that we all know are good, and the character is very playable. The psionics and maneuvers do distract a bit from the main dish, that's pretty much my only complaint.
SCORE:
Overall - 14
Average - 3.5
Vermillion:
Spoiler
Originality: 3
While there's nothing terribly special about a monster progression and then straight monk entry, the backstory and the hilarious image of a kung-fu drunken minotaur kept this at 3.
Power: 2.5
A solid front-line fighter, would be a great tank for a tier 4 party, but lacks the versatility to push this higher. Unfortunately he's a bit feat starved and a lot of his abilities come in very late in the ECL scale. Low mental stats also mean he can't get as much use out of Drink Like a Demon. Could've used a gear breakdown too, might've helped you out here.
Elegance: 4
I try not be part of the elegance = simplicity crowd, but sometimes a build as dirt-simple as this is refreshing to see. I like the way this one comes together, except for one thing - he doesn't get going until a very high level. Why use the Savage Progression if you're not going to use it to try and get into the SI earlier? You could have started taking monk and drunken master levels before finishing the racial levels. Improved bull rush should also come earlier in the build, I mean c'mon, he's a bull.
Use of Drunken Master: 3.5
A solid use of the class. This guy would be a great NPC in a lot of campaigns, and would be pretty fun to play in a medium optimization group. Doesn't do anything crazy with the class abilities, just enjoys them for their own sake.
SCORE:
Overall - 13
Average - 3.25
Uthunan:
Spoiler
Originality: 3
Goliath grabs guys and beats other guys with them. Pretty cool, but it's been done before. Backstory was great, good job there.
Power: 3.5
Grappling is good, and takes people out of the fight, but NOT the way you think it does with the bestow curse thing. I'm sorry, that simply doesn't work. People are not inanimate objects, they don't "break" in D&D. I didn't hit you too hard here because despite that, this build is still pretty potent as a tier 4 melee frontliner.
Elegance: 1.5
I thought the Bestow Curse thing was a cool bit of fluff, but you tried to turn it into something very cheesy, bordering on munchkin behavior. That will always get a negative reaction from me, especially here, and I felt I had to deduct a full point. The other loss here was the Cleric/Fortune's Friend end of the build, which seemed odd even before I realized you were using it to further the Bestow Curse trick. I really wish you'd left that out, because otherwise this would have been a very strong contender.
Use of Drunken Master: 3
A grabbing build using your enemies as improvised weapons is still pretty cool, without the shenanigans with Bestow Curse. I just wish you hadn't focused so much on the natural 1/weapon breakage thing; in other words, I really like the core of this build, just next time go easy on the cheese.
SCORE:
Overall - 11
Average - 2.75
Chieftain Nini:
Spoiler
Originality: 2.5
I'm glad to see a killer halfling in here, but I'm really tired of the dragonborn template being slapped on everything. I know it's mechanically good, but it's so overused, and most people don't even bother with a fluff justifcation anymore, as is the case here. The story was interesting, with it's intentional referencing of the struggle of Native Americans with alcohol in the US. The actual class levels are nothing unexpected.
Power: 3.5
Pretty solid optimization, and great feat selection. Has no problem dealing damage and getting around.
Elegance: 3.5
You point out the possible issue with Shou Disciple yourself, but I would probably let that fly without issue; Flurry is well known as a mechanically difficult ability at best, and it's not a game-breaker by any means. SD does come out of a setting book that few groups I know of make use of though. Also, see my complaint about the Dragonborn Template under originality.
Use of Drunken Master: 3.5
Like some other entries, this is a solid use of Drunken Master and is very playable. Doesn't do anything too wild with it; but I like mixing the combat style of the small folk with the class.
SCORE:
Overall - 13
Average - 3.25
Gazebo Jones:
Spoiler
Originality: 5
Buh...what now? Ok, I need a drink.*
Alright...Warforged, Thrall of Jubilex. That turns into furniture and hurts folk. You're crazy man. I like you, but you're crazy. This is definitely one of the weirder builds I've seen in my time as a judge. I liked the backstory and setup too, very well done.
*If you were wondering, I really did get up and get a whiskey at this point.
Power: 3.5
Thrall of Jubilex undeniably adds a lot of tricks to the mix, and warforged is always a good racial pick, though you did lose a bit here due to the questionable nature of them being able to enter Drunken Master, discussed further below. Other than that, very solid tier 3 build.
Elegance: 2
There's a big problem here - Warforged can't get drunk! They don't eat or drink, and they're immune to poisons and toxins. This means it's unlikely that any DM would let them even enter Drunken Master. I am aware that a liberal reading of their racials (which states that they can gain beneficial effects of consumable magic items) combined with the statement under Drink Like a Demon that alcohol effects the Drunken Master "differently" could make this work, but that's a stretch, to say the least. I would've knocked down further here, since the "using yourself as an improvised weapon" bit is also somewhat questionable, but you're right...rule of cool does apply. This build is nuts, in a good way, so I'm being a bit lenient with it.
Use of Drunken Master: 3.5
This is hard to call...this is such a creative and crazy build, and I like it a lot, but the rules issue is pretty glaring. I give this an A for effort, but I wish that I could come up with a plausible reason why the entry would be legal. I'm going to give this a slightly above average score since I'm very torn, but happy about it. This build made me laugh, and that counts for something.
SCORE:
Overall - 14
Average - 3.5My friend and I have a blog, we write D&D stuff there: http://forgotmydice.com/
Comedian avatar by The_Stoney_One
A Guide to Commonly Misunderstood 5th Edition Rules
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2010-11-24, 04:49 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2009
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV
Huh. Only 1 shou disciple - I thought that half the entries would use that.
Here's a quote from my half-finished entry:
Spoiler
The Secret Ingredient:
Drunken master is an odd duck. Odd enough that when you really start looking at it, have a few shots, and then get all philosophical, you realize it's not really a duck at all! No sir! It's a platypus!
See, Drunken master looks like a monk prestige class. Heck, it wants you to have flurry of blows, it lets the monk cross-class, it does everything but ask for monk levels specifically by name. But let's say, just for example, that a monk DID decide to become a Drunken master. What does he get out of the deal? I mean, just look at the first level - you take a drink and pick up a barstool and star swinging, right? Except that taking that drink lowers your wisdom - something monks HATE doing, because wisdom is sort of like their power stat (even if it's a pretty wimpy one)! And then when you pick up that barstool, suddenly you can't really use that 'flurry of blows' ability that's so useful to monks! The class doesn't even improve the monk's unarmed damage!
So why in the world would a lawful, stick-where-the-sun-don't-shine, goody-two-shoes monk ever join this beer-swilling fraternity? The easy answer is they wouldn't! No sir, this is a prestige class designed perfectly to complement the Shou Disciple!
What, you haven't heard of these blokes? Well, the Shou Disciple gets their own unarmed combat damage table - completely separate from the monk one, only goes for 5 levels and then you can't improve their unarmed damage after that (but the drunken master can help with that!), they don't care a whit about how 'wise' they are, and they can flurry with whatever the heck they want to! Got a battle axe? You can flurry with it! Picked up a barstool? Flurry away! Now THAT is what the Drunken Master is all about!
The build was:
Dragonborn (Wings) Goliath
Swordsage 1/Incarnate 2/Barbarian 2/Shou Disciple 5/Drunken Master 10
Feats: Midnight Dodge, Extra rage, Improved Trip, Open Least Chakra(Feat), Power Attack, Great Fortitude, Deflect Arrows, Battle Jump, Leap Attack, Powerful Charge.
The only two tricks worthy of note were abusing the synergy between midnight dodge/Shou Disciple/Drunken Master (put 0 essentia into MD, get +5 dodge bonus, get free essentia point), and the ability to repeatedly pounce/flurry the same guy with a two-handed improvised weapon (because charging in a circle is OK thanks to Drunken Master 2).