OOTS #1182 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

I thought your dad was dead?

Yeah, you'd think that'd be the end of it, and yet.

[rbetieh]

Personally, I think Belkar will draw a beautiful picture titled “Last Breath Ever” before the end of the year, thus fulfilling the prophecy. Then he’ll die.

I feel like killing off the party chef before the final feast will leave a bitter taste in everyone's mouth.

[Schroeswald]

I feel like killing off the party chef before the final feast will leave a bitter taste in everyone's mouth.

Who says that it’s before the final feast? Maybe it’s in the climax or denouement.

[Peelee]

climax or denouement.

I believe you mean dessert.

[Petrocorus]

Belkar does have a point about Roy.
And not just about gear. We all know Roy should have multiclassed out of Fighter levels ago, and the main reason he didn't is because he's completely hung up on doing all that as a straight Fighter due to father issues.

Ah yes, the Ancient Noir Dragon. Hers is a dark tale of trying to find booze and make a living as a shapeshifting private detective in Greysky City. The fight scenes are short but intense. 8/10.

I'd totally dig that!

Presumed dead MIAs I would guess? I know at least one French general has to go through a lot of trouble to prove that not only wasn’t he dead but that his former inconsolable widow and her new husband should give his his stuff back.

Which one?

I guess that's the inspiration for Colonel Chabert.

[Bacon Elemental]

I'm definitely getting a powerful vibe that Roy's about to let slip that he knows that Belkar is gonna die within... how long left is it anyway? A week? very shortly.

[Lheticus]

Okay. I see there are a number of ways this can end. Anyone care to venture a percentage of said ways that end up fulfilling Belkar's death prophecy? I'll say 15%. Just for fun obviously, there'd be no way to determine accurate odds for real.

[Fyraltari]

Belkar does have a point about Roy.
And not just about gear. We all know Roy should have multiclassed out of Fighter levels ago

I don't. Why? (Bear in mind I don't play D&D)

I'd totally dig that!

Thanks.

Which one?

I guess that's the inspiration for Colonel Chabert.

This is why I should check before I post stuff like that. While Chabert is indeed based on a (couple of) historical figures, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphon...i_d%27Hautpoul didn't have nearly as much trouble proving his case.

[The MunchKING]

And not just about gear. We all know Roy should have multiclassed out of Fighter levels ago, and the main reason he didn't is because he's completely hung up on doing all that as a straight Fighter due to father issues.

AN ordinary fighter can do fine in a world where the enemies aren't highly optimized supermachines.

[Particle_Man]

I think that the repetition of *I* was important for V, showing that it was V who must succeed, not anyone else (such as V’s master on the scheme suggested by the three fiends as a workable alternative that did not require the Deal). So “I, *I* must succeed” makes sense as a matter of emphasis. Pride is a sin that the three fiends knew how to exploit.

And Roy is still thinking like his first edition grandfather, where having an overpowered magic sword could cover a lot of problems. But 3.5 is . . . different.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I really liked this interaction between Belkar and Roy. I feel like we’re definitely going to see more stuff like this going on in Book 7, especially as Belkar continues to undergo his character development. “The anal fistula of this quest” is a absolutely golden line.

[HorizonWalker]

I don't. Why? (Bear in mind I don't play D&D)

The fighter, especially in D&D 3.5 Edition, is one of the weaker classes. You know all that guff Eugene gives Roy about how being a fighter is a terrible idea compared to being a wizard? Yeah, that's not just Eugene being a jerk, that's grounded in fact. When a Wizard gains a level, they get more spells to cast, and more powerful spells to cast. Fighters get a little bit better at hitting people with a sword. Fighters just don't get very many interesting or useful options in a lot of versions of D&D, especially not 3.5, which is unfortunate.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I'm definitely getting a powerful vibe that Roy's about to let slip that he knows that Belkar is gonna die within... how long left is it anyway? A week? very shortly.

Roughly a month, I think. Seven weeks at the end of DSTP, BRITF covered maybe two weeks including travel time at the start and this book is a week. Arguably, Belkar could not die at all in book seven, if it ends before then.

[Ruck]

Well, that one about "last breath" was the only one on the divinely-backed "record". The Oracle can spout whatever he wants off-the-cuff in mundane fashion, but there's clearly a difference when the words are being formally and explicitly backstopped by the divine power that grants him his prophetic abilities.

There's a difference in official prophecy people will remember, and what the Oracle says to people outside of that. But why would the Oracle make a lot of veiled comments seeming to imply Belkar's impending death while actually meaning something different each time, then give a prophecy doing the same? What would be the point, besides "fooling the readers"?

Conventional death may indeed be involved.
But nothing's ever been that simple with the Oracle, and it seems to me it isn't about to start being straightforward today.

[citation needed]

People keep saying this, and yet I think the Oracle's prophecies have all been fairly straightforward (if occasionally ambiguous on the surface) and have all come to pass. (Except Belkar's death, which will come to pass by the end of the series, and Elan's happy ending, which requires the ending.)

The fighter, especially in D&D 3.5 Edition, is one of the weaker classes. You know all that guff Eugene gives Roy about how being a fighter is a terrible idea compared to being a wizard? Yeah, that's not just Eugene being a jerk, that's grounded in fact. When a Wizard gains a level, they get more spells to cast, and more powerful spells to cast. Fighters get a little bit better at hitting people with a sword. Fighters just don't get very many interesting or useful options in a lot of versions of D&D, especially not 3.5, which is unfortunate.

Also not knowing why and not being a D&D player-- I am still unclear as to whether it would be genuinely beneficial this late in the game for Roy to take the first level of another class. What would be most optimal for him?

[Jasdoif]

Also not knowing why and not being a D&D player-- I am still unclear as to whether it would be genuinely beneficial this late in the game for Roy to take the first level of another class. What would be most optimal for him?

Warblade. Keeps his high BAB and Fort save, gets his Int bonus on Reflex saves with the first level, gets a few special attacks that can worth with the smacking things around he already does, his Fighter levels count as half initiator levels for qualifying for those special attacks (he could get a 4th-level maneuver with that first level in Warblade), he could reassign his weapon-specific feats to other melee weapons if he had cause to...and gets more stuff with more levels.

Spoiler: Snips, Snails and Dragon Tails

Show

And if a last-panel comment to his 4th-edition counterpart is true, Eugene refusing to pay for a PhD program is why Roy doesn't have Warblade levels already.

[Aeson]

Dude, never become a criminal attorney. ‘Honorable members of the jury, my client did not kill the victim as, although my client did plunge a knife inside the victim’s heart with every intent to kill, the victim was being mean’. No wait, I take it back, do become a criminal attorney I want to see that in real life.

Look up Cicero "Pro Milone." It's more "my client did kill that guy, but it's okay because that guy was awful" than "my client did kill that guy, but it's okay because that guy was being mean," but it's pretty close to what you're asking for.

[Fyraltari]

Look up Cicero "Pro Milone." It's more "my client did kill that guy, but it's okay because that guy was awful" than "my client did kill that guy, but it's okay because that guy was being mean," but it's pretty close to what you're asking for.

Can’t a guy make a joke without people listing historical precedents (while admitting they are inapplicable even) around here?

I know what mitigating circumstances are and they are different from a ‘non-guilty’ ruling, dammit.

[Schroeswald]

Can’t a guy make a joke without people listing historical precedents (while admitting they are inapplicable even) around here?

I know what mitigating circumstances are and they are different from a ‘non-guilty’ ruling, dammit.

Even the comic agrees, it’s sort of important that mitigating circumstances exist and shouldn’t give a non-guilty ruling (ask Haley).

[tyckspoon]

Also not knowing why and not being a D&D player-- I am still unclear as to whether it would be genuinely beneficial this late in the game for Roy to take the first level of another class. What would be most optimal for him?

Fighter gets Feats and advances Base Attack Bonus at +1/level. That's it, that's all the Fighter class does. Roy is already high enough level that he should basically already *have* all the Feats that would be useful to him, which means that advancing Fighter just gives him chances to pick up things that he already passed over as being not good enough the first time (and if a Feat wasn't good enough to take at 6th level, it's almost certainly not worth getting at 16th!) Short of having somebody teach him or inspire him towards more useful homebrew feats like the Spellsplinter Maneuver Roy is not gaining much from staying with Fighter, mechanically. Combine with the fact that many other similar martial classes (usually defined as also having 1/1 BAB progression) are very frontloaded, because they want you to have your Signature Thing to do from level 1-2, you get a lot of things Roy could benefit from taking. Or even not so great things that would still be more useful to him than more Fighter - there's several prestige classes on the theme of 'you're really invested in your signature weapon', for example, that would fit.

[KorvinStarmast]

Belkar does have a point about Roy.
And not just about gear. We all know Roy should have multiclassed out of Fighter levels ago, and the main reason he didn't is because he's completely hung up on doing all that as a straight Fighter due to father issues.

Also, OoTS characters are by design not built with Charop in mind.

Look up Cicero "Pro Milone." It's more "my client did kill that guy, but it's okay because that guy was awful" than "my client did kill that guy, but it's okay because that guy was being mean," but it's pretty close to what you're asking for.

When I read that and tried to pronounce it, the term sounded like "pro mill ōwn ay" or "pro mill ōwn" which sounds sorta like how provolone is pronounced. And now I am getting all 'ungry like, so I'll drop down to the local cheese shop.

I know a little Italian, but I don't know Latin pronunciation sufficiently to know if the e is or isn't silent.

[GrayGriffin]

Also, OoTS characters are by design no designed/built with Charop in mind.
And when I read that and tried to pronounce it, the term sounded like "pro mill ōwn ay" or "pro mill ōwn" which sounds sorta like how provolone is pronounced. And now I am getting all 'ungry like, so I'll drop down to the local cheese shop.

Isn't Belkar's build even worse?

[KorvinStarmast]

Isn't Belkar's build even worse?

I don't know, since I am not well versed in 3.5 charop.

Ranger/Barbarian: I'd have to hit the GiTP 3.x charop threads to see if anyone came up with a decent Ranger/Barbarian build over the years.

[Schroeswald]

I don't know, since I am not well versed in 3.5 charop.

Ranger/Barbarian: I'd have to hit the GiTP 3.x charop threads to see if anyone came up with a decent Ranger/Barbarian build over the years.

I’m pretty sure that being a ranger like Belkar is just the worst ever, he can’t cast a spell, can’t track and until recently he didn’t even know how to do animal stuff, and since he only has one barbarian level that one isn’t all that useful either.

[HorizonWalker]

An important thing to note about Martial Classes is that they multiclass very well. When a Wizard takes a level in Cleric, those don't stack in terms of spellcasting, which is the main draw of both of those classes, and so it's generally regarded as a bad idea. But when a Fighter takes a level in Barbarian, those classes do stack in terms of melee combat ability, meaning it's actually a pretty good idea.

Now, let's do a quick worked example of what Roy could gain from taking a level in Warblade. First and foremost, we're going to assume Roy is a Level 14 Fighter, which I've taken from the Class & Level Geekery thread, so don't blame me if you think this is inaccurate. Now, let's assume Roy has just leveled up, and he will not do so again for the rest of the story. This next level he takes will be his latest one when he fights Xykon.

If he took the 15th level of Fighter, he would get... a slight increase(+1) to his Reflex and Will saves, along with an equal increase to his Base Attack Bonus(a rough universal measure of "fighting ability"). That's it. He doesn't get a bonus feat at this level of Fighter, only the one he'd naturally pick up.

If he instead picked up the first level of Warblade, he gets that same increase to his Base Attack Bonus, a decent increase(+2) to his Fortitude save, a +1 to his Reflex saves when not flatfooted, and most importantly, access to Martial Stances and Maneuvers from the Book of Nine Swords of up to 4th level. Martial Maneuvers are, basically, spells that fighter-types can cast, whose material foci are swords and whose somatic components are hitting someone with a sword, so there's really too many to cover to properly explain what all Roy has available to him, so instead I'm going to give you a single example Maneuver, of which he gets three just from this level: Overwhelming Mountain Strike. Make a sword attack, doing an extra +2d6 damage and take away your opponent's next move action. A useful tactical option that isn't just "hit badman with sword until badman fall down."

EDIT: Actually, have a much better and cooler example that I'm sure someone already noticed was missing:

Iron Heart Surge. Pick a spell, effect, or condition that you're affected by and has a duration of one round or more. This effect ends immediately, and you gain a +2 Morale bonus on your attack rolls until the end of your next turn. This is a beautiful maneuver, almost explicitly made for telling spellcasters to sit on it and spin.

Paralyzed? Iron Heart Surge.

Symbol Of Pain? Iron Heart Surge.

Baleful Polymorph? Iron Heart Surge.

Mind Controlled? Iron Heart Surge.

Redcloak casts Implosion and picks you to die first? Iron Heart Surge.

[KorvinStarmast]

But when a Fighter takes a level in Barbarian, those classes do stack in terms of melee combat ability, meaning it's actually a pretty good idea.
{snip} Martial Maneuvers are, basically, spells that fighter-types can cast, whose material foci are swords and whose somatic components are hitting someone with a sword, so there's really too many to cover to properly explain what all Roy has available to him, so instead I'm going to give you a single example Maneuver, of which he gets three just from this level: Overwhelming Mountain Strike. Make a sword attack, doing an extra +2d6 damage and take away your opponent's next move action. A useful tactical option that isn't just "hit badman with sword until badman fall down."

Thanks for the explanation. (EDIT: Ah, Book of Nine Swords was Official WoTC supplement)

[Morty]

Isn't Belkar's build even worse?

Belkar's "build", such as it is, would do basically no damage worth noting to anything. Daggers aren't useful weapons to anyone except rogues. Of course, Belkar does deal considerable damage to many enemies, which one would think be a clear this comic doesn't obey 3E's non-functional rules and non-existent balance. And yet here we are, in year 2019 and 1182nd strip. I guess people will keep saying this until the very end.

I'm also not sure why a character abandoning their major motivation to optimize according to rules the comic adheres to loosely at the best of times is treated as a good or desirable thing. The same goes for using a rulebook maybe 1/4 of the comic's readership has heard about, much less used.

[KorvinStarmast]

Belkar's "build", such as it is, would do basically no damage worth noting to anything. Daggers aren't useful weapons to anyone except rogues. Of course, Belkar does deal considerable damage to many enemies, which one would think be a clear this comic doesn't obey 3E's non-functional rules and non-existent balance. And yet here we are, in year 2019 and 1182nd strip. I guess people will keep saying this until the very end.

Is the problem with his weapons themselves doing reduced damage due to his size modification/penalty, or does it go deeper than that?

[HorizonWalker]

I'm also not sure why a character abandoning their major motivation to optimize according to rules the comic adheres to loosely at the best of times is treated as a good or desirable thing. The same goes for using a rulebook maybe 1/4 of the comic's readership has heard about, much less used.

You're completely right- Roy absolutely is not going to deviate from being a Fighter, aside from maybe taking a Legacy Weapon-themed prestige class because it's very fitting for what we've seen him be doing.

Most of what I said about what Roy would gain by being a Warblade is... well, people said they didn't get the nuances of Roy's build, and I immediately tripped over myself to provide an explanation, because I like talking about this sort of nonsense.

EDIT:

Is the problem with his weapons themselves doing reduced damage due to his size modification/penalty, or does it go deeper than that?

It goes deeper than that. First and foremost, even medium-sized daggers do a pitiful amount of damage. Second, the primary way of boosting melee damage is two-handing and power-attacking; when you're dual-wielding, you can't really two-hand your weapons, and so you're left with power-attacking, which requires a feat Belkar may not even have. He probably has it, but he might not.

For this reason, dual-wielding is something you don't really do unless you've got something that boosts the damage of individual attacks, meaning it's to your advantage to make a ton of small attacks. The quintessential example of this is the Rogue, with their Sneak Attack damage- dual-wielding means twice the number of attacks, and twice the opportunities to roll that sweet, juicy Sneak Attack damage.

[Manji]

This cathartic moments between Belkar and Roy only remind me that Belkar's time is running short :(

[factotum]

Is the problem with his weapons themselves doing reduced damage due to his size modification/penalty, or does it go deeper than that?

Even without the size penalty a dagger is a 1d4 damage weapon. With it, it's 1d3. Rogues get Sneak Attack to counteract the pitiful damage of their weaponry, Rangers don't.