Why have they neutered the Warlock down so much?

[andhaira]

It's weird. All other classes got boosts in 5e, except for the Warlock which in some ways atually got neutered down. Yeah they got spells, but their Invocations are nearly useless and non unique, and EB is nothing special anymore.

Where are the blast changing invocations, like sickening blast? They should have built upon these great ideas, rather than change the class and remove them entirely.

And what about Baleful Utterence? Was at will shatter really all that powerful that they got rid of it?

Why did they do this you think?

[Gwendol]

The 3.5 Warlock wasn't exactly a powerhouse, while what we have now is both flavorful and balanced.

[Longcat]

You do realize that Warlocks regenerate spell slots at a short rest, right?

[Inevitability]

You do realize that this is 5.0, not 3.5.5, and you shouldn't compare classes by how much they changed from their versions from two editions and ten years ago, right?

[silveralen]

One of the problems with 3.5 warlock (not that there was any real shortage) was that he was built so differently from everything else that balancing him was difficult. So in this and the last edition, he was brought more in line with the other classes, if only to make balance easier. He is still very unique compared to the other classes, being the only short rest caster, the best cantrip user, and having the only collection of at will spells besides a lvl 18 wizard.

Now, his fairly lackluster spell list doesn't do him any favors (and, going by the DMG his spell list was intentionally made weak) and sometimes it'd be nice to break up his higher level slots into a few lower level slots, but he is actually close to the other classes in power this edition, while he really really wasn't in 3.5.

What makes you feel he was weakened? Reduced in uniqueness perhaps, but overall he probably came out better for it.

Now, if you wanted to make something even more like 3.5 warlock you could, by removing his spellcasting progression and replacing it with more invocations, but that's difficult to balance. Personally I'd focus more on at will lvl 1-2 spells, with the lvl 2 ones coming fairly late, and having all such spells be cast at whatever level his pact magic normally would be. The PHB already covers a lot of the options, but it wouldn't be hard to add a few more.

Then you just need to determine how to balance additional EB addons, which is a bit more difficult to judge.

For spell shapes, things like cone wouldn't be hard too hard to keep balanced, say 1 to 4 d10 to people in 15ft cone, +cha to each with AB, reflex save to avoid. That's basically at will burning hands, with no half damage guarantee (at least, I wouldn't have it, going by normal cantrip rules). You could also do a similar line variation, wouldn't bother with a chain version as the default basically does something similar as is.

For additional essences, don't let them stack with the knockback invocation, and probably allow saves against anything more potent than a plain knockback. A slow, like ray of frost, might be fine without a save, and it could change damage to cold as well. Or dealing fire damage and setting enemies a flame, giving them a saving throw to end the effect each turn or take a small (1d6?) amount of damage. Those are fairly reasonable to model as is. The one that dealt acid damage and ignore spell resistance could be added to bypass magic resistance, but that might be a step too far this edition.

The powerful ones that can blind/confuse for a turn on a failed save are trickier. Nothing like that as an at will exists at this moment (to my knowledge) until very high levels. So you could level lock it, or hope needing to both land an attack and have the enemy fail a save keeps it in check, or somehow keep it from being spread to too many targets (only works with normal EB if the target gets hit by at least two blasts etc). Honestly, this edition just doesn't have anything comparable, so I personally would avoid many of these.

At the end of the day, warlock doesn't really need such changes, but if you wanted something you could pull it off. It'd be a little odd to see a character who doesn't really need rests at all in an edition where even fighter has rechargeable abilities, but if it works for you give it a shot.

[Chaosvii7]

Actually the only thing I truly miss about the old Warlock was the Baleful Utterance. The blast shaping is there, just not as diverse as it was before. Makes sense, as Eldritch Blast is only a cantrip and ends up bringing considerable power to the table all it's own at later levels. But I do enjoy this warlock more than the others, and this is definitely tied for my favorite class of 5e with the Bard.

[ghost_warlock]

Blast shapes could easily be homebrewed. It won't be overpowered so long as there's a limit on the number of times per day/encounter you can use them. For instance, you could make a cone-shaped blast invocation that requires you to be 5th level or higher to take the invocation and requires you expend a spell slot when you use the invocation. Eldritch blast would then be a cone that deals the appropriate number of d10s (2d10 at 5th, 3d10 at 11th, 4d10 at 17th) to every creature in the cone, allowing a Dex save to take half damage.

Likewise, baleful utterance could be an at-will invocation that requires the warlock to be a certain level before they can take the invocation. Ascendant Step is another invocation that mimics a 2nd-level spell so 9th level seems fair.

Although I wouldn't argue that the warlock class is weak, I do feel that the lists of invocations and class spells are pretty thin. I expect WotC will be filling them out more once they start churning out splatbooks.

[Regulas]

Warlock damage is fully competitive in 5e, they do have less versatility in there blasts now but the repleat spell list means that you get plenty of tools all the same so all in all they work out quite well. They are basically a kind of "arcane archer" type in this.

[FaerieGodfather]

Warlocks in 3e and 4e were balanced against 3e and 4e Wizards. 5e Warlocks are balanced against 5e Wizards, who have much less damage capacity and ability to end encounters without fighting.

[Yagyujubei]

the only thing that bugs me about warlock is how their pact spells don't work like cleric or paladin domain/oath spells.

I mean the other two classes straight up get every single spell listed for free, and can cast them without expending spell slots which is insane. I think Lock should at least get all their pact spells without spending spells known. giving them free casts like clerics get would make them way too strong but I don't think having the option to prepare from the list for free is unbalanced.

[Inevitability]

Warlocks in 3e and 4e were balanced against 3e and 4e Wizards.

Actually, both in 3.5 and 4e wizards were stronger. Large gap in 3.5, small one in 4e.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

the only thing that bugs me about warlock is how their pact spells don't work like cleric or paladin domain/oath spells.

I mean the other two classes straight up get every single spell listed for free, and can cast them without expending spell slots which is insane. I think Lock should at least get all their pact spells without spending spells known. giving them free casts like clerics get would make them way too strong but I don't think having the option to prepare from the list for free is unbalanced.

Huh. Yeah, that sounds pretty good. I might houserule that.

[Thugorp]

You do realize that Warlocks regenerate spell slots at a short rest, right?

Yes but so do wizards. Wizards get half of thier spell slots back every short rest. Wizards also have a many more spell slots than do Warlocs. so they end up getting about the same number of spell slots back each level.

My problem with this is that getting spells back is treated as being the warlocks one trick(I play a warlock btws) but in reality they are no better at it than a wizard is, plus they know fewer spells, plus they have almost no spell slots(wich would be o.k. if they were the only ones to be ables to regain them), plus everyone else can do endless cantripe casting now and sometimes deal more damage than them doing it. ... so ... where is the coolness. It is in the fluff which is why I picked a warlock but it would be really really nice if some of it was also in the crunch.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Yes but so do wizards. Wizards get half of thier spell slots back every short rest.

They can only do their arcane recovery once a day, and it's half their wizard level in slots, not half their slots.

[MaxWilson]

My problem with this is that getting spells back is treated as being the warlocks one trick(I play a warlock btws) but in reality they are no better at it than a wizard is, plus they know fewer spells, plus they have almost no spell slots(wich would be o.k. if they were the only ones to be ables to regain them), plus everyone else can do endless cantripe casting now and sometimes deal more damage than them doing it. ... so ... where is the coolness. It is in the fluff which is why I picked a warlock but it would be really really nice if some of it was also in the crunch.

Nobody beats warlocks on cantrip damage. Sharpshooter/GWM fighters can beat warlock with weapon damage, but nobody beats them on spell damage. Even an level 14 Invoker using Maximize does only 35 damage per round (times hit percentage), whereas the warlock (using Hex) does 42 damage per round (times per percentage) plus push effects, at a potentially far greater range.

[Frenth Alunril]

the only thing that bugs me about warlock is how their pact spells don't work like cleric or paladin domain/oath spells.

I mean the other two classes straight up get every single spell listed for free, and can cast them without expending spell slots which is insane. I think Lock should at least get all their pact spells without spending spells known. giving them free casts like clerics get would make them way too strong but I don't think having the option to prepare from the list for free is unbalanced.

I'm pretty sure the cleric and paladin still use slots when casting their domain/oath spells, they are just "always prepared" not free to cast like cantrips.

[FaerieGodfather]

Actually, both in 3.5 and 4e wizards were stronger. Large gap in 3.5, small one in 4e.

Sure. I'm not saying they were ideally balanced, but that they were supposed to be-- the 5e Warlock is weaker than the 3.5e and 4e versions because it's supposed to be balanced against a much weaker Wizard.

[Yagyujubei]

I'm pretty sure the cleric and paladin still use slots when casting their domain/oath spells, they are just "always prepared" not free to cast like cantrips.

Domain spells

Each domain has a list of spells—its domain spells—
that you gain at the cleric levels noted in the domain
description. Once you gain a domain spell, you always
have it prepared, and it doesn’t count against the
number of spells you can prepare each day.

to me, that says your domain spells are separate from the spells you prepare in your slots.

[Pinnacle]

5E casters don't prepare spells in slots.
A cleric prepares level + Wis mod spells, plus domain spells. They then cast spells with their slots.

[MaxWilson]

I'm pretty sure the cleric and paladin still use slots when casting their domain/oath spells, they are just "always prepared" not free to cast like cantrips.

Right, but we're not talking about slots, we're talking about spells known/prepared. Warlocks can choose spells off their patron list, but it counts against their spells known (and therefore prepared, like a sorc), which is usually a low number, 2 for a 1st level warlock. Clerics get level + WIS + (Domain Spells), so typically 6 at first level including Domain spells. Clerics and druids have substantially more flexibility than warlocks for this reason.

[Ashrym]

Domain spells

Each domain has a list of spells—its domain spells—
that you gain at the cleric levels noted in the domain
description. Once you gain a domain spell, you always
have it prepared, and it doesn’t count against the
number of spells you can prepare each day.

to me, that says your domain spells are separate from the spells you prepare in your slots.

That just means they have more prepared. It's always prepared and doesn't count against the level plus ability modifier for spell preparation.

That means at 20th level with 20 caster ability score a paladin has 25 spells prepared to spend his slots on, a cleric has 35 spells to spend slots on, and a land circle druid has 33 spells prepared to spend slots on. At no point did the number of spell slots change, only spells prepared, which is separate from preparation.

A prepared spell cannot be cast without a slot available to cast it and there is no separate slot mechanic for those spells.

Warlocks are do not prepare spells at all like those other 3 classes, do not use divine spells like those other 3 classes, and do not use or contribute to the spell progression tables like those other 3 classes there's no reason to believe they should simply add additional spells known simply because those other 3 classes work that way.

So far, I prefer warlocks to wizards or sorcerers because of all the at-will abilities available and short rest mechanic they use.

[Thugorp]

Nobody beats warlocks on cantrip damage. Sharpshooter/GWM fighters can beat warlock with weapon damage, but nobody beats them on spell damage. Even an level 14 Invoker using Maximize does only 35 damage per round (times hit percentage), whereas the warlock (using Hex) does 42 damage per round (times per percentage) plus push effects, at a potentially far greater range.

Hex isn't a cantripe, it is a first level spell which affects only one person at a time, and is only one spell on a list of first level spells that warlocks might get three of(MIGHT if they don't take a bond spell). There are lots of warlocks who might not take the spell because it doesn't fit with thier character. Plus casting it in the first place presents it's own problems, consider that it is a spell that has you giving up 1 round of combat to do 1d6 additional damage to 1 target on your following turns, a target which might or might not be conciouse the next turn(sleep spells every caster's got them) and at 14th level I could be casting ray of death or circle of death or flesh to stone... compared to 1d6 extra damage those seem like better options since I only get 3 spells slots to use. most of the time my cantripes will be no better than anyone elses, on average Eldritch blast being cast by a level 14 warlock deas 15damage. Assuming 16 charisma and the selection of the right invocation(Agonizing Blast) this might get bossted to 24 damage(if you pick Agonizing Blast). Actually now that I have mathed it all out I am not sure where your 42 damage is coming form even with Hex a 14th level warlock is dealing an average of 24 damage or 33 damage if he has also taken Agonizing Blast. A maximized invoker does 35; 35 every time I assume since that is the point of maximize. In the end even if I take every boost I can get I am still most of the time not the most efective cantripist and even coming close is based largely on taking both of two optional selections.

So far, I prefer warlocks to wizards or sorcerers because of all the at-will abilities available and short rest mechanic they use.

It is true that they have a short rest mechanic where he will regain his spell slots each short rest, but lets compair that to a wizard. To be fair to both I will be compairing 10th level characters since this is the exact mid level. A 10th level wizard has fifteen non-cantripe spell slots and then will regain up to 5 spell slots at some point during the day for a total of 20 spell slots. The 10th level Warlock starts his day with 2 spell slots and will regain up to 2 spell slots with each short rest. For the Warlock to get as many spell slots as the Wizard he would have to short rest 9 times. That isn't going to happen. During an adventure people usually rest 3 or 4 times so on average the Warlock will get eight to ten spell slots. and that's assuming he didn't try to hord any as this would actually decrees the number of slots he would cast. All and all even with his ability to regain spell slots at short rests he will rarely get as many spell slots as the Wizard.

[Shadow]

all that

1. Hex is a bonus action to cast, so you aren't wasting anything on it.
2. Hex lasts as long as you concentrate, and can switch targets during that time, so it doesn't matter if your target dies. Just pick a new target.
3. Hex applies on each hit. Every blast from EB is a separate attack roll, so each blast is a different hit.
4. That makes each agonizing blast deal 1d10+1d6+5 with max Cha, which averages to 5.5+3.5+5=14(*4)=56 at 20th level. At 14th level, which is what was referenced there, you'd be dealing 42 on average if all 3 hit.

Warlocks are far and away the ranged magic cantrip damage dealing champions, hands down.

The wizard in your example doesn't get five SLOTS back, he gets five LEVELS of spell slots back. That can be three 1st level slots and a 2nd level slot, or it can be a single 5th level slot. If he always uses it on his highest level slot, he only gets that one slot back, ever, until he reaches 19th level where he can get one 9th level slot and one 1st level slot (totaling ten, which is half his level).

Basically every single thing you typed was incorrect.

As to the OP: Warlocks in 5e are extremely powerful.... if your group makes good use of short rests. The more short rests the group takes, the more powerful the warlock is.
If you go by what is expected, wherein the group takes a short rest every two or three encounters (about twice per day) then he is balanced extremely well vs the other casters.
If your group lacks the time to take short rests, or simply chooses not to, then he feels a bit weak in comparison.

[MaxWilson]

most of the time my cantripes will be no better than anyone elses, on average Eldritch blast being cast by a level 14 warlock deas 15damage. Assuming 16 charisma and the selection of the right invocation(Agonizing Blast) this might get bossted to 24 damage(if you pick Agonizing Blast). Actually now that I have mathed it all out I am not sure where your 42 damage is coming form even with Hex a 14th level warlock is dealing an average of 24 damage or 33 damage if he has also taken Agonizing Blast. A maximized invoker does 35; 35 every time I assume since that is the point of maximize. In the end even if I take every boost I can get I am still most of the time not the most efective cantripist and even coming close is based largely on taking both of two optional selections.

1.) Of course you take Agonizing Blast. Why wouldn't you? It's the single best feature of the Warlock class.
2.) The math for a 14th level warlock is like this: 1d10 (each Eldritch Blast bolt) + 1d6 (Hex) + 5 (CHA bonus -- assuming 20 CHA) = 5.5 + 3.5 + 5 = 14 points of damage per hit. A 14th level character who hits with all three bolts will do 14 * 3 = 42 points of damage, which is more than the 35 the Invoker can do with a Maximized cantrip.
3.) Yes, there are sometimes cases where you can't/won't use Hex, and in these cases you'll do only 31.5 point of damage. By the same token, the Invoker doesn't always want to Maximize his cantrips, either because he's saving up for a maximized Meteor Swarm or something (if 17th+ level) or because his DM thinks maximizing cantrips for free is cheese. If he doesn't Maximize, he does only 3d10+5 = 21.5 points of damage with his cantrip.
4.) If the wizard is an Enchanter or Illusionist or something, his cantrips do only 16.5 points of damage.
5.) The Warlock is doing Force damage, which almost nothing can resist, but the wizard is doing Fire damage for his 3d10, which lots of things resist, or else he is accepting an even lower damage like 3d8 for necrotic damage, which is low enough to be almost irrelevant.

Warlock is hands-down better at at-will damage than a wizard is. Wizards, however, are better at stuff like Web and Confusion.

[Ashrym]

It is true that they have a short rest mechanic where he will regain his spell slots each short rest, but lets compair that to a wizard. To be fair to both I will be compairing 10th level characters since this is the exact mid level. A 10th level wizard has fifteen non-cantripe spell slots and then will regain up to 5 spell slots at some point during the day for a total of 20 spell slots. The 10th level Warlock starts his day with 2 spell slots and will regain up to 2 spell slots with each short rest. For the Warlock to get as many spell slots as the Wizard he would have to short rest 9 times. That isn't going to happen. During an adventure people usually rest 3 or 4 times so on average the Warlock will get eight to ten spell slots. and that's assuming he didn't try to hord any as this would actually decrees the number of slots he would cast. All and all even with his ability to regain spell slots at short rests he will rarely get as many spell slots as the Wizard.

The standard is 2 short rests for DM guidelines. The warlock has better at-will's including some first and second level spells at that level and that's something a long ways away for the wizard when spell mastery is acquired, and those 2 warlock slots are always cast in the highest level slots. That means 6 fifth level spells when the wizard only has 2, or 3 using arcane recovery for a 5th level slot, or half what the warlock has. The short rest mechanic means more of the highest level spell slot available, usually, and better at-will options puts warlocks in a good place. Going tome is even better in the comparison for book of ancient secrets for similar ritual mechanics.

It doesn't matter if the wizard has more slots when the warlock has more of the best slots and better at-wills when both will be using at-wills regardless throughout the typical day.

The wizard in your example doesn't get five SLOTS back, he gets five LEVELS of spell slots back. That can be three 1st level slots and a 2nd level slot, or it can be a single 5th level slot. If he always uses it on his highest level slot, he only gets that one slot back, ever, until he reaches 19th level where he can get one 9th level slot and one 1st level slot (totaling ten, which is half his level).

A slight correction: Wizards and druids cannot renew spell slots higher than fifth level with arcane or natural recovery. At 19th level the wizard could recover 2 fifth level spells once by using a short rest.

Of course, if we're talking that high of level the warlock has 12 fifth level spell slots after 2 short rests, which is a lot.

[Shadow]

A slight correction: Wizards and druids cannot renew spell slots higher than fifth level with arcane or natural recovery. At 19th level the wizard could recover 2 fifth level spells once by using a short rest.

Ah, yeah, I had forgotten that they were limited to 5th for recovery.

[Gwendol]

Sure. I'm not saying they were ideally balanced, but that they were supposed to be-- the 5e Warlock is weaker than the 3.5e and 4e versions because it's supposed to be balanced against a much weaker Wizard.

It's not weaker. The 3.5 Warlock is well below the 3.5 bard in power and versatility. The 3.5 warlock was not balanced against the wizard (nothing, barring other full casters, is).

[SpawnOfMorbo]

It's weird. All other classes got boosts in 5e, except for the Warlock which in some ways atually got neutered down. Yeah they got spells, but their Invocations are nearly useless and non unique, and EB is nothing special anymore.

Where are the blast changing invocations, like sickening blast? They should have built upon these great ideas, rather than change the class and remove them entirely.

And what about Baleful Utterence? Was at will shatter really all that powerful that they got rid of it?

Why did they do this you think?

First off, the warlock is on of the best all around classes in the game.

And actually coming from 4e, the martial classes got nerfed big time.

Just take a look at all the things you can do as a martial character in 4e and compare them to 5e. In 5e they essentially took at the martial classes and turned them into strikers because for whatever reason giving martials interesting options breaks people's minds. Even the Battle master doesn't have squat compared to a second level 4e martial.

The warlock got changed up but can still do a ton of interesting and useful stuff. Hardly neutered like the non casters.

[Dalebert]

4. That makes each agonizing blast deal 1d10+1d6+5 with max Cha, which averages to 5.5+3.5+5=14(*4)=56 at 20th level. At 14th level, which is what was referenced there, you'd be dealing 42 on average if all 3 hit.

Warlocks are far and away the ranged magic cantrip damage dealing champions, hands down.

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I don't actually have a problem with warlocks power level compared to other classes. If anything, they are a bit OP in certain respects. For instance, it bugs me that they made some of their invocations into the ability to know more spells which makes them potentially better than sorcerers in that respect when sorcerers are focused on spells.

Invocations have a certain feel. They're supposed to be powers. EB and other powers in 3.5 were different in that they didn't have verbal components. I nice perk for silence or stealth. That's gone now. I think that they wanted to go the route of keeping things simple so they made the mechanics of all magic be spells, so I mostly am forgiving about this change. It just bugs me to take a spells known slot and make that interchangeable with an invocation.

#1 It makes warlocks able to know more spells than a sorcerer which doesn't seem right to sorcerers.
#2 Just add those invocations to their spell list for crying out loud and make them give up their limited spells known slots for them. Warlocks are supposed to hit hard and have things they can do a lot but be less versatile. This makes them potentially more versatile on top of the other perks they have over sorcerers.
#3 It doesn't fit for an invocation which should be more like powers. Devil's Sight and Eldritch Sight seem more invocationy than casting a spell using a slot once per day.

The only other peeve I have with warlocks is not so much they have too few invocation choices as they made them so disproportionate in usefulness such that it seems to me most warlocks are going to pick the same ones and be much alike. So they have fewer viable choices in a sense. But these are definitely peeves and not beefs. Overall, I think they did pretty well designing the class. If anything, I feel like sorcerers got the short end of the stick in 5e but I haven't analyzed them that closely and I'm sure some folks here will school me on how I'm wrong about that.

[Quarterling]

it seems to me the more I play with the Warlock that they are stunningly consistent at specialized jobs.

for some examples I've seen/done:

1.you could make a lower level pact of blade warlock that can see in magical darkness at fifth level you could fight someone for ten rounds of combat with advantage on all YOUR attacks while they have disadvantage that's huge.

2.you could make and infiltrator that has disguise self up constantly and could invade any group reliably with the actor feat you could deceive just about anyone murder someone go around a corner and change your face.

3.A warlock scout is the best scout in the game easily. having an invisible pixie with their stupid stealth modifier constantly around is very good

and regardless of what you are good or bad at you have access to agonizing blast giving you access to the most powerful damage cantrip in the game to always fall back on. Point being if your thinking warlocks are standard casters you're dead wrong, they're designed to be specialist and frankly they are incredible at it.

not to mention they have patron features which are plain juicy by any means, being immune to certain spell effects and gaining resistances to different damage types, the 14th level abilities range from decent fey save-or-suck ability, the fiend is a very nice ability with no save, and the great old one gives you access to the best enthrall ability in the game, seriously that enthrall ability in myopinion is almost stronger than some classes 20th level abilities.