Red Flags for DMs?

[Zanos]

I'm not fond of the idea at all. I think you should have to work for your magical gear to some extent. It rubs me the wrong way. I can't imagine any one shop having more then 1-3 magical items tops. Thousands, and thousand of pp or gold just doesn't seem reasonable shop keeper could afford multiple pieces of gear. Barrels of masterwork weapons? Sure! Mundane Items? Sure!

1-3 magical items in some mom and pop shop in the boonies, sure, that's why there are rules for determining what magic items are available in a settlement. If you want truly powerful magic items you have to go to a metropolis or a planar trading hub like the City of Brass.

And unless you just hand out money for doing nothing, the characters are still "working" for their gear.

[Barbarian Horde]

Average shop from what I was reading in the economics in city of 25,000-100,000population had like 10,000g while shop in a city of 101,000+ would have upwards of 60,000 using the dungeonomicon as reference. However I never said there wasn't more then one shop. It's just locating the said item might take a while.


Unfortunately it's not official, but it makes reasonable assumptions. It was good material when it was posted on WoTC before they got rid of 3.5 stuff. I think D&D wiki has a copy of the article.

[icefractal]

The Mercane are a canon version of that. They don't have a magical Walmart, but they have vaults of magic items on the Astral plane, and they can trade with each-other very quickly. Get in contact with a Mercane, show you have the payment required, and they should be able to acquire nearly anything in a day or two.

Even at lower levels, I think the "magic item fixer" (in the Shadowrun sense) model makes more sense than magic shops with items just sitting around. You don't go buy that Carpet of Flying off a shelf, you talk to someone who knows who's interested in selling and what. If they can track it down, they'll arrange the sale and act as a trusted third party. They might also sometimes buy items themselves for later sale, but those would be stored in basements or unmarked warehouses, not such an easy target for thieves. How do they get paid? The mark-up between selling price and buying price.

Which also implies that if you're willing and able to do your own legwork, and figure out who's trustyworthy (and convince them the same about you) yourself, then you can get magic items for less, potentially as low as the selling price. In a way, crafting that's open to non-casters.

[Tohsaka Rin]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I pay good gold to get my MagiZon Prime. Same day shipping is a must when I need that gross of Blast Discs.

Also, can we make Salt Master a thing? I think 'salty dungeon master' takes too long to say. 'Salt Master, the MASTER of SALT! No-one is more salty than he!'

[Guizonde]

my dnd experience was "no magic marts, you work for your items". turns out that you get creative. it was by no means a low-magic campaign, but when i still packed a master-work heavy mace at level 6, i got up and did something. went to my local pelor cathedral, and got the thing consecrated. became a +1 holy masterwork mace thanks to a favor i called in (it was due payment anyway). turned into a minor status symbol as well, which did help convince people i was who i said i was (note to self, rp is good, reputation is good, good deeds are good, but don't underestimate a decent charisma score when playing a holy man).

strict gear upgrade appeared semi-randomly: the dm rolled on random loot tables and when the dice didn't seem to fit (for example, a vorpal battleaxe in a no-barbarian party), he'd "rerolled" it into a rapier dealing electric damage that had the added advantage of being concealable. the rogue got a pimp-cane which saw some use when she couldn't use her bow.

[Caedes]

I have always felt like the Magic Item conundrum is typically best resolved by the group DM wants meeting the needs of the group.

I have enjoyed both types of games where magic items are abundant or scarce. The only times I have not enjoyed that aspect of a game in either scenario is when their is a disconnect between the DM and the group.

So for me, the real red flag is. The DM sets a type the group is unhappy with it. They talk about it. And the DM goes "Well that is the way it is. Deal with it."

Every great Pen and Paper RPG game I have been in has a balance between the "DMs vision" and the players needs for fun.

[Florian]

I more or less gloss over the whole topic of gold and WBL. During an adventure or dungeon, you´ll find a lot of consumables and maybe unique items, when back in civilization, what happens frequently, you can simply fill up the missing WBL, a bit modified by the towns spending limit.

[Svata]

I'm not fond of the idea at all. I think you should have to work for your magical gear to some extent. It rubs me the wrong way. I can't imagine any one shop having more then 1-3 magical items tops. Thousands, and thousand of pp or gold just doesn't seem reasonable shop keeper could afford multiple pieces of gear. Barrels of masterwork weapons? Sure! Mundane Items? Sure!

I mean... you did work for it. You didn't just stumble across the Gold. You worked for it.

[lbuttitta]

My point is, Latin is understood by so few that pretentious bad Latin for purposes of fun and spellcasting is probably fine. I mean, what else are you going to do? Cast spells in rhyme like some sort of Child of Oberon?

I will totally do this with my next bard character.

[Quertus]

Nah, I think i got it and we just disagree.

Okay, except most people who just wholesale ban magic items or make them very rare do not not do this. In fact I've never seen a DM that didn't like magic items screw with XP tables or adjust encounters all that much, they just shrug when the party with no gear at level 5 dies to a group of shadows.

It doesn't do a great job but it can provide approximations in many cases, to the point where gross outliers like the crab and the adamantine horror are notable rather than commonplace.

Sorry, I misunderstood you then. I suppose I hadn't accounted for DMs being just bad. I was exclusively talking about doing it right.

As to CR... a high-OP 2nd level party with 2 bfc wizards and 2 druids can likely handle many threats above their CR, but will have a much harder time with a shadow than a 3rd level party with a dread necromancer, or fighter with a magical weapon, who can likely deal with several.

In a party with no AoE, a horde of creatures is much more of a threat than it is to even a lower level party with a blaster wizard / zombie dragon / etc.

The actual party composition, capabilities, and tactics greatly influence just how challenging an encounter will be.

+ DMs who roll all loot randomly without a easily accessible means of exchanging the random loot for gear appropriate to the party.

This ends up being very similar to the low magic item DM if the random loot contains nothing for your character.
Hope you don't fight unarmed, you basically get nothing with standard tables.

Or at least the option to chase down rumors of specific items.

Well, that's kind of the point. The game expects you to beat CR 10 monsters at level 10. If you're beating CR 10 monsters at level 14 because you don't have items, you needed those items to do what the game expected you to do. Obviously, you can still play without them, but it's dishonest to say you don't need them because the game can be warped to accommodate not having them.

Having bigger numbers lets you handle bigger threats. Having smaller numbers means you have to deal with smaller threats. If you want to modify your game to ignore WBL and not give out items, you need to have the party facing smaller threats.

Flying foes. Foes who can move fast enough to kite them. Foes with sufficiently good stealth abilities. Foes who inflict conditions that you need magic to protect again and/or cure.

A party of casters could probably handle being zero-wealth, though they'd have to be a lot more cautious than typical. But many classes will run into problems that higher numbers don't help with.

Those first 3 can be solved with a ranged weapon and a bag of flour/marbles/caltrops player skills. I'll grant the 4th one, conditions that you need to fix, does mandate some expendable items and/or some casters. Because you can't just "get better" from being turned to stone.

The Tarrasque can only be killed if you drop it to -10 hit points, and then use the greater function of Wish or Miracle. Sending it against a party that doesn't have access to either of those is literally impossible to justify.

Here, Wish is a quest-specific McGuffin.

And one you should never need, as any reasonable Illithid Savant has already procured the Tarrasque for its delicious regeneration.

Going underwater. Dealing with fliers. Most extraplanar travel. Getting high enough will saves to avoid the fighters being sicced on the rest of the party. Healing if the cleric gets ganked first.

Quest-specific McGuffin, ranged weapon, "yo, sage, where the portal be at?", numbers, agreed.

Protecting the fighter from mind control yourself from the fighter is, from your description, simply a matter of numbers. Thus, my suggestion of fighting lower CR foes covers this problem.

It is difficult to heal the only healer in the party without items. Go team cleric!

Realism is fine in doses, but I just don't want to saturate the world in convenient gear. depending on what the other players do to sometimes.. It can be a nightmare when they make other party members obsolete because they have enough gear that compliments them enough to fight an encounter by them self.

... Can everyone in the party handle an encounter by themselves?

If not, then you have a balance issue, not a gear issue. If so, then you have a balance issue, not a gear issue.

[Deophaun]

"Working for magic items" means we're going to spend a significant part of the session being boring, either just because we're going to play HaggleMaster 2000, or the DM thinks going shopping is the most exciting thing about his campaign. Or maybe he's just played too many PC-RPGs and doesn't realize side-quests for gear are just there to pad out the game time (and besides, the gear at the end is often vendor trash anyway). Whatever, red flag.

If the DM cannot imagine how characters are getting the magic items they want without the use of a literal MagicMart, that's a red flag for a host of other issues relating to lack of imagination on the DM's part. Tends to follow DMs that struggle with players re-fluffing their classes to not be their classes.

[Zanos]

Sorry, I misunderstood you then. I suppose I hadn't accounted for DMs being just bad. I was exclusively talking about doing it right.

Sure, but this is a red flag thread. I've had more experiences with DMs who restrict magic items being bad then good, hence it's a red flag for me.

As to CR... a high-OP 2nd level party with 2 bfc wizards and 2 druids can likely handle many threats above their CR, but will have a much harder time with a shadow than a 3rd level party with a dread necromancer, or fighter with a magical weapon, who can likely deal with several.

In a party with no AoE, a horde of creatures is much more of a threat than it is to even a lower level party with a blaster wizard / zombie dragon / etc.

The actual party composition, capabilities, and tactics greatly influence just how challenging an encounter will be.

Wizards should have prepped magic missile.

And yeah I agree that CR is absolutely not gospel as to encounter difficulty, but it's a good deal more useful than the forums here would indicate, with some people going so far as to say that it's completely useless.

[GilesTheCleric]

I'm not fond of the idea at all. I think you should have to work for your magical gear to some extent. It rubs me the wrong way. I can't imagine any one shop having more then 1-3 magical items tops. Thousands, and thousand of pp or gold just doesn't seem reasonable shop keeper could afford multiple pieces of gear. Barrels of masterwork weapons? Sure! Mundane Items? Sure!

Depending on your setting, there are ways to have magic item shops feel less like schrodinger's town wealth boxes. In Spelljammer there's the Mercane, who are explicitly merchants of magic items; in Planescape/ default Greyhawk 3e there's the Githzerai, who are incentivised to make magic items so that they never reach level 15. Eberron sounds like the entire setting is filled with magic; and of course Forgotten Realms is bursting with magic items, high-magic nations like Thay, Netheril, and Imaskar, and of course plenty of individually powerful mages.

[icefractal]

This topic brings to mind another red flag - GMs who make something difficult through IC means, and then get upset when the players try to defeat that difficulty, because what they really wanted was to ban it on an OOC level and/or have it require a plot-based solution. Look, most of D&D gameplay is overcoming challenges. If I were playing a character who gave up when something wasn’t immediately easy, I wouldn’t be adventuring in the first place!

So when I see a magically locked door, I’m going to see if we can take it off the hinges, or enter from another spot, or one of the many other ways to deal with such an obstacle. I’m not going to immediately give up and go look for a sage to send us on a quest for the magic key - why would I even assume that’s possible? If you want that to happen, create a situation where it makes sense IC or just say so OOC (I’m not a fan of skipping an obvious solution for plot reasons, but I’ll do it once or twice, especially if the GM is new).

Likewise, if you say there are no magic item shops, that doesn’t say to me “So don’t bother ever trying to acquire magic items”, that says “So you have to go do the legwork yourself”. If what you really wanted was low-magic or GM-controlled access, then say so OOC. I may or may not want to play that way, but at least I won’t be wasting everyone’s time on something that’s secretly pointless.

[Barstro]

I’m not going to immediately give up and go look for a sage to send us on a quest for the magic key - why would I even assume that’s possible?

Isn't that why we have Local or History Knowledge?

DM: "Rogue-guy, you realize that this is a lock that simply cannot be picked. Wizard-dude, you recognize arcane powers well above your ability sealing this door. Bard-boy, this door looks exactly like a drawing from one of your childhood books; The Mythos Mysteries, in which the magical key was stolen by a dragon from the north".

Railroading, to be sure. But that's better than "Nuh uh, not gonna open. What do you do now?"

[Deophaun]

Isn't that why we have Local or History Knowledge?

We have Knowledge (local) for +5 to attack and damage rolls against humanoids with Knowledge Devotion.

We have Knowledge (history) for Wizards with Int > 30 and nothing left to put skill points into.

[GilesTheCleric]

We have Knowledge (local) for +5 to attack and damage rolls against humanoids with Knowledge Devotion.

And for regional feats!

[ATHATH]

Depending on your setting, there are ways to have magic item shops feel less like schrodinger's town wealth boxes. In Spelljammer there's the Mercane, who are explicitly merchants of magic items; in Planescape/ default Greyhawk 3e there's the Githzerai, who are incentivised to make magic items so that they never reach level 15. Eberron sounds like the entire setting is filled with magic; and of course Forgotten Realms is bursting with magic items, high-magic nations like Thay, Netheril, and Imaskar, and of course plenty of individually powerful mages.

I thought that the Githyanki were the ones with the lich queen.

[The_Jette]

I thought that the Githyanki were the ones with the lich queen.

The Githzerai is a completely different race that has favored class Monk, and work really well as psionic characters. They're fun to play.

[Thurbane]

Also, can we make Salt Master a thing? I think 'salty dungeon master' takes too long to say. 'Salt Master, the MASTER of SALT! No-one is more salty than he!'

Funny - when you say Salt Master first thing that poops to mind is someone (ab)using Wall of Salt to break WBL.

I have always felt like the Magic Item conundrum is typically best resolved by the group DM wants meeting the needs of the group.

I have enjoyed both types of games where magic items are abundant or scarce. The only times I have not enjoyed that aspect of a game in either scenario is when their is a disconnect between the DM and the group.

So for me, the real red flag is. The DM sets a type the group is unhappy with it. They talk about it. And the DM goes "Well that is the way it is. Deal with it."

Every great Pen and Paper RPG game I have been in has a balance between the "DMs vision" and the players needs for fun.

Me too.

Of course, common from a 1E background "you get what you're given" is a little entrenched in my DNA.

But I have enjoyed both types of games as a player: scarcity and abundancy/freedom of choice.

And yes - if the DM has a vision that doesn't mesh with the player's expectations, and will hurt their enjoyment, he should be open to negotiation. If not, definitely red flag.

---

To give my own example of DM concept not meshing with player enjoyment:

A very good friend of mine (in fact, probably my best friend) ran a conversion of a 1E campaign he had developed. The concept was that each player ran three predetermined characters: each character represented a different leg of the campaign (there was a pool of pre-determined characters for each leg: the players decided between themselves who would play what).

There were a few major issues with the game:

1. The DM was running a homebrew mishmash of 1E and 3E rules, where everyone's power level was roughly equivalent to an NPC class (i.e. Aristocrat etc.), there were no feats, and the "casters" had access to about three spells that were extremely nerfed. And if someone found a creative use for the nerfed spell, the DM would rule 0 it so "it doesn't work like that". The rules were internally inconsistent, and consisted of about 20 or so printed pages, that referenced both 3.5 and 1E rules, and used confusing pseudo-historical terms for arms and armor that made it quite confusing to work out what you were even wielding (i.e. a lance was renamed to spear; but there was also a different weapon called a spear). ???

2. The game was scripted. Not just light railroading: each leg of the adventure had an actual script, and precious little the players did would make any difference. Most of it involved large army battles etc. in a recreation of a pseudo-historic campaign. Even if the players ruthlessly massacred all opponents with no losses, the overall ending of each leg would be largely predetermined.

3. Because we were playing pre-generated characters, a lot of actions we tried to take would be met with "Your character wouldn't do that!". That was the final straw for me.

After a long chain of back and forth emails in the group, the DM ragequit and said we showed him no repsect and didn't give his concept a fair chance.

We are still very good friends, but he chose to leave the gaming group and not return.

[Rhyltran]

Mine are:

-Critical fumble rules
-A DMPC special snowflake
-DM's who insist that you aren't important
-Large number of books banned
-Martials don't get nice things
-The DM is never wrong. Ever. Not even slightly.
-Vindictive DM's who will purposely find ways to kill you because you did something unexpected
-Story on Rails adventures
-Tells me how my character should act
-Takes control away from my character (not from something like failing a charm spell)
-Overly sexual adventure (Fade to black is ideal here.)
-Everything you get is actually bad and you can't ever get anything good (This one was hilariously bad.)
-Multiclassing and Prestige Classing is broken (what??)
-Town Guards who are commonly level 15+
-Evil Characters can never function alongside good Characters.. ever. No matter the campaign.
-Reinforce the above: If you play an evil character he must be a psychotic killer even if you're Lawful Evil who giggles while killing puppies because it's funny. Evil isn't any other way.
-Constantly seeks no win situations for paladin players to ensure that they fall (Bailed out of two games like that.)
-Divine intervention is the norm and not some uber rare situation. So players are being railroaded, saved, or harassed by deities.. constantly.
-You vs Me mentality.

[digiman619]

-Everything you get is actually bad and you can't ever get anything good (This one was hilariously bad.)

Care to share the story?

[Rhyltran]

Care to share the story?

DM who had no clue what he was doing. "You find a treasure horde after slaying the dragon." "The treasure turns into a swarm of roaches! They.. also attack!" "You find a magic sword." We try to figure out what it is. "Your roll of 39 tells you that it's safe." Fighter picks it up. "IT'S CURSED!" Yeah.. If we did get something and somehow it didn't turn on us, poof from existence, explode (these all happened), despite whatever alarms, system, or anything we put in place it's stolen. When we literally had every conceivable way to ensure that no one takes our stuff "A deity did it." That was the walking away point. I wanted to walk much much sooner. Friends convinced me to stay.

Oh, and half the list I posted above are all things that were in the campaign. Critical fumbles were also a thing. The entire adventure felt like a monty python skit.

[danielxcutter]

DM who had no clue what he was doing. "You find a treasure horde after slaying the dragon." "The treasure turns into a swarm of roaches! They.. also attack!" "You find a magic sword." We try to figure out what it is. "Your roll of 39 tells you that it's safe." Fighter picks it up. "IT'S CURSED!" Yeah.. If we did get something and somehow it didn't turn on us, poof from existence, explode (these all happened), despite whatever alarms, system, or anything we put in place it's stolen. When we literally had every conceivable way to ensure that no one takes our stuff "A deity did it." That was the walking away point. I wanted to walk much much sooner. Friends convinced me to stay.

Oh, and half the list I posted above are all things that were in the campaign. Critical fumbles were also a thing. The entire adventure felt like a monty python skit.

It looks like he knew perfectly well that he was screwing you.

[Rhyltran]

It looks like he knew perfectly well that he was screwing you.

Regardless, I left. Then a few sessions later I was told everyone else left too. Lol

[danielxcutter]

Regardless, I left. Then a few sessions later I was told everyone else left too. Lol

Why am I not surprised?

[logic_error]

On the magic items conundrum:

I feel that wholesale magic items kinda destroy the uniqueness of magic. Magic should feel potent and useful but not "Common". Did anyone play NWNs? Those games make magic Mundane. Then again I think the biggest culprit here is the rules about material components that use mundane stuff to power magic. If the components themselves were rare (Pearl for the Identify rare), both spells and magic castings should feel much more flavourful. I understand why this is not the case. But I *do* also believe that it is a fixable issue. Whether it can be done within the *current* framework of D&D is another problem.

If I were the king (DM) I would actually have no +1 magic swords. Every item would be unique and *made* useful via specific story around it. A decanter of water would be a holy artifact that you'd only gain with immense investment. A headband of intellect +2 would not exist. Spells like wish, miracle, planar binding, plane shift, raise dead, resurrection would be guarded by archmages and gods and would be the purview of epic level characters only.

More importantly, I would agree with people pointing out about working for the magic item. You encounter a unique monster and then go on a quest to equip yourself to fight it. Mages go on a quest to acquire spells, feats and prestige classes and materials, while martial characters similarly quest for the feats, weapons, armors and prestige classes. This would act to justify the power these character options add to the player characters.

Also, I would use circumstance bonuses a lot to award players who think out of the box. Spells having mixed effects, martials exploiting the environment effectively etc would be encouraged to with these bonuses. The catch here is a great deal of investment from the DM in terms of description and planning including a well set up gameworld. But these are the costs of a good RPG anyway.

[danielxcutter]

On the magic items conundrum:

I feel that wholesale magic items kinda destroy the uniqueness of magic. Magic should feel potent and useful but not "Common". Did anyone play NWNs? Those games make magic Mundane. Then again I think the biggest culprit here is the rules about material components that use mundane stuff to power magic. If the components themselves were rare (Pearl for the Identify rare), both spells and magic castings should feel much more flavourful. I understand why this is not the case. But I *do* also believe that it is a fixable issue. Whether it can be done within the *current* framework of D&D is another problem.

If I were the king (DM) I would actually have no +1 magic swords. Every item would be unique and *made* useful via specific story around it. A decanter of water would be a holy artifact that you'd only gain with immense investment. A headband of intellect +2 would not exist. Spells like wish, miracle, planar binding, the
plane shift, raise dead, resurrection would be guarded by archmages and gods and would be the purview of epic level characters only.

More importantly, I would agree with people pointing out about working for the magic item. You encounter a unique monster and then go on a quest to equip yourself to fight it. Mages go on a quest to acquire spells, feats and prestige classes and materials for the feats, weapons, armors and prestige classes. This would act to justify the power these character options add to the player characters.

Sure... if you're playing an E6 game. If you expect them to go up against archfiends and great wyrms, though... don't blame me.

Also, magic abundacy depends on the genre and setting. If you're playing an Eberron campaign or a setting based on the Tippyverse, then magic should be dirt cheap(at least low-level magic). If you're running a game where people over level 3 are world-famous, on the other hand... you get the idea.

[logic_error]

Sure... if you're playing an E6 game. If you expect them to go up against archfiends and great wyrms, though... don't blame me.

Also, magic abundacy depends on the genre and setting. If you're playing an Eberron campaign or a setting based on the Tippyverse, then magic should be dirt cheap(at least low-level magic). If you're running a game where people over level 3 are world-famous, on the other hand... you get the idea.

Eberron, despite being one of my favorite settings, is a bit funny. Merrix d'Cannith is a poor level 10 something guy. He can literally never come close to what you character would become in the game. This tells you something important about how seriously to take the game design there. As a DM there is a lot to balance in the game.

I think you can solve most problems in Eberron by treating most magic items as temporary charge based items or as infusions made specifically for you by your guild/ employer.

EDIT:

About going against Archfiends and Dragons.

I was never a big fan of that. It is always silly to have a dragon being defeated by players that are not close to Epic levels. This breaks my immersion seriously. A Dragon is supposed to be an *intelligent* ancient creature that can literally plot and plan its entire life. You should not be able to defeat it willy nilly. Don't even get me started on the Archfiends :P.

[danielxcutter]

Eberron, despite being one of my favorite settings, is a bit funny. Merrix d'Cannith is a poor level 10 something guy. He can literally never come close to what you character would become in the game. This tells you something important about how seriously to take the game design there. As a DM there is a lot to balance in the game.

I think you can solve most problems in Eberron by treating most magic items as temporary charge based items or as infusions made specifically for you by your guild/ employer.

Perhaps the problems with official settings are why many people come up with homebrewed ones, such as the DM of my current PbP. He says that it's been used before at his table, and the current campaign takes place about a century after the last game they had in it. It's pretty extensive, though there's plenty of wiggle room to flesh out character backgrounds.

Too bad the campaign's an Elder Evil one.




Oh, personal red flag: uses house rules/alternative rules that I have little experience with. Especially if they cause a significant shift in how combat works, and especially especially if they're not easy to remember. If it's a minor change, like "this star sign allows you to take 20 on a Charisma-based check 1/week", then no problem.